What Is Awakening’s Fuel? And a Poster Challenge!

[Confused]

Quote

The way magic from Nalthis works, for example, the system is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself--and so basically anything will do, regardless of the source. This includes consuming your own soul, in some cases... [General Reddit (April 25, 2019).]

Despite Brandon’s statement, I find no obvious Nalthian Investiture source to fuel Awakening. Please help me solve this mystery.

AWAKENING’S FUEL

I see Awakening’s color drain the same as Allomancy’s metal burning and Sand Mastery’s dehydration. Magic lasts in those systems only while color, metal, and water last. Yet none of these substances is Investiture or otherwise serves as the magic system’s fuel. I view color (electromagnetic radiation really), metal, and water as the kinetic Investiture carriers for their respective Shards, substances that transport kinetic Investiture to magic users.

Here are Nalthian Awakening’s fuel possibilities:

Color as “Spiritual Attribute”

Many believe color is a “Spiritual attribute.” I agree, but that doesn’t tell us how color could act as fuel. Most (all?) Spiritual attributes are Connections. A Spiritual aspect is raw Investiture mixed with Connections. Connections IMO carry the data that turns raw Investiture into a unique lifeform or object. An object’s color is unique data like its weight and dimensions. Because Connections are not Investiture, I think color couldn’t fuel Awakening even if color is a Spiritual attribute.

Specific colors are magically significant in the cosmere. Color affects Soulcasting, for example. But Brandon says in that WoB, “I didn't work that into the Warbreaker magic,” and he chooses not to “retcon the magic.” He confirms specific colors don’t matter for Awakening in this 2019 WoB.

Pigment

@RShara opines an object’s “pigment” is fuel. Pigments are substances that selectively absorb visible light wavelengths. Selective absorption causes the object to reflect the other wavelengths, which our eyes perceive as color. RShara says breaking the pigment’s bonds yields the energy Awakening needs.

This is a neat solution, but I have questions. What happens to the object’s Spiritual aspect when those Physical Realm bonds break? Why and how does that fuel Awakening? In our world, to break molecular bonds requires external energy; otherwise, stable molecules like pigments remain intact. What supplies this external energy in the cosmere?

How does Awakening work if the object holds no pigment? Pigments are separate molecules from the objects they color. Brandon says an Awakener can drain color from gemstones. Gemstone color depends on internal impurities that affect light absorption, not pigments. How is that consistent with the pigment theory? If an Awakener can drain color from an object without pigment, then pigment’s bonds seem unnecessary as fuel.

Something Else

Because of my questions, I look elsewhere for Nalthian Investiture. No obvious source jumps out at me. Breath can be used as fuel but generally isn’t. Dyes made from the Tears of Edgli are best for Awakening and contain Endowment’s Investiture. But Awakeners can Awaken from other color sources too.

That leads me to ask, Why does Awakening drain color? Color is the perception of reflected light. Objects absorb the other light wavelengths in the form of photons. Absorbed photons – the ones that don’t give off color – are all that’s left in the object. Why should draining the absorbed photons turn an object gray when the absorbed photons are not responsible for color?

Best Guess

My best guess: Draining those photons drains Investiture the photons hold. Like a Shardblade severs a limb from its Spiritual aspect and turns the limb gray, draining Investiture-laden photons IMO causes the object to turn gray. Endowment Investiture “sticks” to the object that absorbs the photons. My limited imagination can’t see another explanation that both grays an object and sources Investiture.

The following vague WoB supports the possibility but with caveats. “A connection” can mean most anything. It’s also unclear which “two things” from among drained objects, Shardblades, and gemstone color Brandon refers to. Here’s the WoB despite these flaws:

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theleadingman

Objects used for awakening turn gray. A limb cut with a shardblade turns gray. You mentioned earlier in this thread that the color of gemstones on Roshar is important. Is there a connection between these?

Brandon Sanderson

Between those two things? Yes.

/r/books AMA 2015 (July 3, 2015)

Investiture Source?

Where might Investiture-laden photons come from? As quanta of electromagnetic radiation (EMR), the Invested photons’ most likely source is Nalthis’ sun. On Taldain, Autonomy’s Investiture “beats down” from its sun onto that planet. Nalthis’ sun could function similarly. I speculate Nalthis’ sun has always radiated Investiture onto Nalthis as part of that planet’s pre-Shattering ambient Investiture cycle.

I do not suggest the sun’s Investiture necessarily comes from Endowment. It might be Autonomy’s or some other Shard’s Investiture. I think Awakening can use any Investiture as fuel IF the Investiture is in a form Breaths can process (discussed below). Breath holders can theoretically Awaken objects on any planet. But on Nalthis, Investiture stuck to the photons an object absorbs is the only fuel I can find that relates to color draining.

Awakening on Roshar

Comparing Nalthian with Rosharan Awakening is instructive despite how inconclusive the relevant WoBs are. It’s hard to know if Brandon means Stormlight can substitute as Awakening’s fuel or substitute for Breaths.

When asked, “could you fuel Awakening using Stormlight, or do you have to bring Breaths?,” Brandon answered, “Yes, you could.... there are tricks to making it happen on each world. Some are easier than others, but yes you can.” [Calamity Release Party (Feb. 16, 2016).] Since the questioner asked if you can fuel Awakening with Stormlight, I believe Brandon assumes the Awakener has Breath, though that’s unclear. [Hint: Don’t ask Brandon compound questions! We can’t tell what “yes” means.]

Brandon also says, “You can make a Returned feed off of Stormlight very easily. You can't use Stormlight to power Awakening very easily, but if you still have those Breaths, you can use them and reclaim them.” [Starsight Release Party (Nov 26, 2019).] This also sounds like Stormlight can fuel Awakening “if you still have those Breaths.”

And Brandon says you can convert Stormlight into Breath by “Refining the power somehow into a more pure form.” [General Reddit (April 25, 2019).] Neither Hoid nor Vivenna knows how to do this, “so it’s not like a simple thing to achieve.”

With limited confidence, I interpret these WoBs to mean Rosharan Awakeners need Breaths to Awaken. Otherwise a Rosharan Awakener would have to convert Stormlight into Breaths, which no one knows how to do yet. That suggests, for now, Rosharan Awakening relies on Breaths and some Rosharan fuel. 

Rosharan Fuel for Awakening

I see two possible Rosharan fuels for Awakening: Stormlight and gemhearts. Brandon says here, here and here that Awakening drains Rosharan gemstones of color and ruins their Soulcasting properties. Gemhearts are made from Investiture leaking into the Physical Realm. That supports but doesn’t prove that Awakening drains Investiture, not color. When @RShara asks, can you Awaken using an underground gemstone that’s never been exposed to light and doesn’t hold Stormlight, the answer is “Yes,” if that gemstone is made from a gemheart.

The more interesting question is whether mined gemstones can substitute. Most gemstones come from gemhearts: “Some are mined. Mining is not easy on Roshar.” Mined gemstones are “very similar. Not 100% chemically identical” to gemhearts because they contain more mineral impurities. Brandon hasn't said whether Rosharan Awakeners can use mined or artificial gems as color sources (though the latter can be used for fabrials). I believe if the gemstone holds Stormlight the Awakener could remove that Investiture to fuel Awakening, which will drain the gemstone's color.

Endowment’s Magic

Brandon (IMO) says Shards grant magic users access to Investiture through the Shard’s unique “primal force/fundamental law/something natural.” Ruin magic users Intend an act of entropy (spiking, converting attributes into Investiture, destroying evil). Windrunners Intend a bond to change gravity’s vector (lashing). I believe Endowment gives Awakeners access to Investiture through quanta.

Breaths are quanta of Endowment’s Investiture. The Heightenings are the quantization of Breaths, since Breaths vary due to age, illness, and other factors. Photons are quanta of electromagnetic radiation (EMR), which includes visible light. Endowment IMO gives Awakeners access to Investiture through quanta (Breaths), fueled by any Investiture carried in quantum form.

Conclusion: Breath Can Use Any Quantized Fuel

This post’s opening WoB says Awakening “is just looking for any available Investiture to power itself.” I don’t think Awakeners can use Investiture in any form. A Rosharan Awakener cannot simply inhale Stormlight and Awaken an object with that fuel even if they do hold Breaths. The reason IMO is Endowment’s “quantum” primal force.

I think Breaths need to process Investiture in quantum form. Like metal and water carry their Shard’s kinetic Investiture, I believe photons carry Endowment’s kinetic investiture. You can Awaken anywhere in the cosmere with any Investiture, but you must access that Investiture by draining the “color” from an Invested object. That Investiture reaches the Awakener down an EMR pathway. I speculate on Nalthis that Investiture radiates from its sun, like on Taldain.

And for those who think draining “color” by itself suffices to fuel Awakening, this “Poster Challenge” is for you.

POSTER CHALLENGE – “HAND WAVIUM” OR COSMERE THERMODYNAMICS?

Folks on Discord surprised me the other day by rejecting the idea cosmere thermodynamics helps explain magic. They feel cosmere thermodynamics itself is broken or has so many exceptions as to limit its value as an analytical tool. Many think Awakening and other magic systems don’t need fuel and don’t have to comply with thermodynamics’ rules. They accept magical solutions that I think involve too much “hand wavium.”

I therefore offer this POSTER CHALLENGE: Read this WoB carefully and summarize its main conclusion. What do YOU think Brandon says here? Thanks for playing!

Quote

Questioner

So for the Old Magic, in this classification system of end-positive, end-neutral, and end-negative, where would that fall under?

Brandon Sanderson

So, almost every magic in the cosmere is end-positive, almost every magic is relying upon an external source of Investiture to power it. So that phrasing is mostly more relevant to Scadrial than anywhere else, because that concept is how I'm dealing with things like the laws of thermodynamics, and even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer… So that phrasing is kind of a... Take that as a science on.. Scadrial that does not extrapolate well, and may not even be 100% accurate.

Moderator

That would have been a great thing to know before we did the cosmere magic panel. *laughter*

Brandon Sanderson

I look at it as, is an Investiture externally powering the magic, and if you look at Allomancy, yes it is. You are drawing that power out. Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic. Whereas you're stealing stuff with-- So you could look, for instance at the magic on Nalthis, you could look at that one as being-- as kind of working as end-negative, meaning "I am taking it away from someone else", or end-positive depending on if you're the one receiving it or not. So again, it's a phrasing that can be useful as a tool but doesn't scale well to the other magics.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

And for my Discord friends, I offer this quote:

Quote

You may know that there is a unifying theory of magic for all of my worlds--a behind-the-scenes rationale. Like a lot of people believe there's unifying theory of physics, I have a unifying theory of magic that I try to work within in order to build my worlds. As an armchair scientist, believing in a unifying theory helps me.

[FAQFriday (August 25, 2017).]

Brandon violates his own rules more often than one would like. But those rules exist and IMHO should guide the development of our magic system theories. All the best! C.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Confused

[The Cardinal of Death]

this is certainly interesting to think about if you look at awakening from the perspectvie of a drab there giving up a part of themselves with no real way to get it back so end negative i could see were the fuel is coming from is intresting this wob applying to lifless specifaclly says there soul is drained implying thats what causes the lose of color similer to a blade dead limb wich carves away the souls investiture if we can apply this to awakening an object the colored materials soul is drained and used as fuel while the breath acts as a kind of engine im not sure though  

PrncRny (paraphrased)

What connection is there between Lifeless and Shard-severed limbs?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They are similar, but different. With Lifeless it's due to the soul being drained away, shrinking to nearly nothing. With Shard-severed limbs, that portion of the soul is sheared clean away.

Idaho Falls signing 2014 (Nov. 29, 2014)

[Quantus]

For what it's worth, in that quote I think he's actually referring more specifically to Nightblood rather than all Nalthian magics.  If all Nalthian magics were similarly discerning, then there wouldnt be any need to convert Stormlight to Breaths before you could Awaken with it. 

As far as the broader point, Im still wrappign my head around what you are trying to describe, but at first glance I dont think that Color's role in the magic is anything that's going to be Physical Realm based, otherwise the whole trick of using a 10th heightening person to bounce back and forth between grey and White should work.  Color seems to serve a function that is closer to Catalyst than Fuel, similar to how the physical (mundane) metals used of Allomancy are facilitating the effect and are used up, but are not the actual source of Power.  

[RShara]

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can you Awaken using an underground gemstone that’s never been exposed to light and doesn’t hold Stormlight, the answer is “Yes,” if that gemstone is made from a gemheart.

 

I'm sure that the gemstone would work no matter what planet it was mined from, in regards to my question. Gemheart not necessary.

[Eternal Khol]

37 minutes ago, Quantus said:

For what it's worth, in that quote I think he's actually referring more specifically to Nightblood rather than all Nalthian magics. 

i think he was talking about Returned in that first quote and how they can use any investiture to stay alive and if they dont they end up consuming their own soul and die

 

58 minutes ago, Confused said:

Because Connections are not Investiture

of course they are.

everything in the SR is investiture.

that includes Connections

Edited April 20, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Master_Moridin]

18 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

of course they are.

everything in the SR is investiture.

that includes Connections

Actually, on this point at least, Confused is accurate.

 

Quote

 

Aurimus

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by Master_Moridin

[Eternal Khol]

4 minutes ago, Master_Moridin said:

On this point at least, confused is accurate.

damnation.

i forgot about that WoB

Edited April 20, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[Chiberty]

I speculate on how this works in this thread by relating it to Allomancy and Feruchemy:

 

[Master_Moridin]

Quote

Color is the perception of reflected light. Objects absorb the other light wavelengths in the form of photons. Absorbed photons – the ones that don’t give off color – are all that’s left in the object.

This is not how this works. Photons do not continue to exist within a thing. They cease to exist as their energy is transferred to electrons/atoms.

Generally, what's happening is that all the light that hits an opaque object is absorbed but depending on the properties of the material and the frequencies absorbed, it'll emit new light at specific frequencies.

There's obviously more to it than that but that's the basic idea.

[Subvisual Haze]

I think the quote you're referencing at the start of your post is referring only to a very specific situation in Nalthis' magic - sustaining a Returned beyond their basic 1 week lifespan.  This is a bit of a special case of the magical system.  The "meat" of the Returned magic is the divine breath clinging to your recently deceased corpse, keeping that body eternally young and healthy, and keeping your mind attached to your old/changed body.  For some reason this magic seem to require a weekly fee of free investiture to keep functioning though (lest your body eat the same divine breath that is keeping you "alive").  The form of this weekly maintenance fee is the aspect of the Nalthis system that is flexible with regard to form of investiture (one breath, some amount of Stormlight etc.).

Nalthis' magic is pretty odd the more your think about it.  The breaths themselves are like partial pieces of human souls that are passed around to grant varying degrees of increased sentience to the target objects/people/corpses.  The more breath a living person passively has, the greater their senses and intuition are enhanced, in a way their own consciousness is increasing.  I think it's a much lesser form (but the same idea) as how a human consciousness expands when it ascends to command the power of a shard.  Awakening of inanimate objects likewise seems to be gifting said object a degree of sentience so that it can carry out the directions of your commands. The closest analogue I can think of in the cosmere are the hemalurgically charged spikes that grant Kandra their sentience.

The color of dyes seems to act as the fuel to move the breaths/sentience around ("unsticking" the breaths from yourself either permanently or temporarily and attaching them to the target), with the spoken commands then giving shape and substance to what functions the breath's increased sentience facilitates. 

[Honorless]

6 hours ago, Quantus said:

For what it's worth, in that quote I think he's actually referring more specifically to Nightblood rather than all Nalthian magics.  If all Nalthian magics were similarly discerning, then there wouldnt be any need to convert Stormlight to Breaths before you could Awaken with it. 

I thought so at first too but the full WoB does seem to describe the system of BioChroma and not just Nightblood

Quote

As far as the broader point, Im still wrappign my head around what you are trying to describe, but at first glance I dont think that Color's role in the magic is anything that's going to be Physical Realm based, otherwise the whole trick of using a 10th heightening person to bounce back and forth between grey and White should work.  Color seems to serve a function that is closer to Catalyst than Fuel, similar to how the physical (mundane) metals used of Allomancy are facilitating the effect and are used up, but are not the actual source of Power.  

Agreed, what Brandon has described seems to fit Breath & Awakening just fine, the former can be transferred freely and latter can be used by anyone who has the requisite amount of the former, and the whole thing fits with Endowment's theme

[+Oltux72]

6 hours ago, Subvisual Haze said:

The color of dyes seems to act as the fuel to move the breaths/sentience around ("unsticking" the breaths from yourself either permanently or temporarily and attaching them to the target), with the spoken commands then giving shape and substance to what functions the breath's increased sentience facilitates. 

No. You can give away your Breath or get Breath without any color just fine. The Returned can sacrifice their Divine Breath for healing without color. But that still needs commands.

It is specifically awakening that needs color.

[Honorless]

24 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No. You can give away your Breath or get Breath without any color just fine. The Returned can sacrifice their Divine Breath for healing without color. But that still needs commands.

It is specifically awakening that needs color.

It does take colour

Quote

Chaos

Why does giving your Breath to another person not require color? Every other Command does.

Brandon Sanderson

I thought I answered this in the book. You use your own color.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

When Lightsong gave away his Divine Breath to the God King, his body became grey

[Brgst13]

So the first part of this question is, what is color?  Color is generated when light strikes an object.  The atoms of the object absorb some of that light.  The frequencies reflected depend on the energy levels of the electrons.  The rest of the light is reflected, and we perceive this reflected light as color.  

If we accept that "color" is necessary for Awakening, then Awakening must do something to change the absorbance of materials.  In other words, Awakeners must somehow change the electrons of the object.  We know that light can carry Investiture (see Taldain, as well as Hoid's use of Sand Mastery on other worlds like Nalthis).  Since Investiture is not bouncing wildly around off every opaque surface, that Investiture must be at least partially absorbed by electrons.

In our universe, electrons have three properties: mass, charge, and spin.  Photons also have these same three properties.  Since Cosmere photons carry Investiture, they must have a fourth property, Investiture.  Therefore, all Cosmere fundamental particles should have this fourth property.

How does this tie into Awakening?  Awakeners need to access Investiture, and change the properties of electrons.  Therefore, they must interact with the Investiture number of the electron.  This number, I propose, exists in three states: 1, 1/2, and 0.  1 is a fully Invested electron, and reflects light normally.  1/2 is partially invested, and reflects light as gray due to increased light scattering.  0 is not invested at all, and reflects white due to complete reflectance.

Awakening drains the Investiture from electrons in an object.  Awareness below the Tenth Heightening can use Breath to change the Investiture number from 1 to 1/2, resulting in a gray object.  Awareness of the Tenth Heightening can draw out all the Investiture from an object, changing the Investiture number from 1 to 0, making it white.

I think this theory works to explain the "fuel" for Awakening, as well as why it is easy to use it on other worlds.  Let me know what you think!

[Honorless]

Hmm... @RShara, a link to your theory that the OP mentions?

Given that Brandon has said that when colour is leeched during an Awakening, the physical pigment is drained, it seems far more likely that we should look there rather than photons or EM waves. Plus with how colour drains to grey afterwards, that just fits better with pigmentation, something happens Cognitively due to perception

Black can be used as fuel while while white can't, except apparently with the Tenth Heightening with prismatic effects: this part works better for your theory though

Huh, looks like both are affected

[Brgst13]

My question is, if the pigment is drained, how does that connect to Rosharan gemstones?  Gemstones do not contain pigment, but they are still changed to grey.  That is one of the reasons I prefer the electron-based changes.

[Master_Moridin]

We have WoB on how the change is actually occurring btw. It's a Spiritual change that reflects in the Physical.

 

Quote

 

tallakahath

So, on Nalthis, in the Warbreaker universe, when the color's pulled out of something, is that a physical or chemical change or is that a perceptual change?

Brandon Sanderson

It is actually a physical change, but the spirit of the thing is changing, and it's filtering through to the Physical Realm.

tallakahath

So, if I do that on a carrot, I can break beta carotin? If I do that on a piece of metal, I can reduce it and charge my battery that way?

Brandon Sanderson

Potentially, yeah! Yeah, that would work, you're changing it's Spiritual nature.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

 

 

[RShara]

2 hours ago, R J said:

Hmm... @RShara, a link to your theory that the OP mentions?

Given that Brandon has said that when colour is leeched during an Awakening, the physical pigment is drained, it seems far more likely that we should look there rather than photons or EM waves. Plus with how colour drains to grey afterwards, that just fits better with pigmentation, something happens Cognitively due to perception

Black can be used as fuel while while white can't, except apparently with the Tenth Heightening with prismatic effects: this part works better for your theory though

Huh, looks like both are affected

I don't have an official theory. I just think that color is drained and it has nothing to do with photons. I'm positive that color would be drained from something that had never been exposed to EMR at all.

[Brgst13]

I agree that the color would be drained.  The Investiture of an electron is a fundamental property of the electron, not related to the incidence of EM radiation.  I was using photons to help establish the chain of evidence.  There is no need for any object to be exposed to EM radiation at all to use it as Awakening fuel.

[Subvisual Haze]

Also black is the absence of visible spectrum light, yet black materials make an extremely effective fuel for Awakening.

[Confused]

Thank you all for an excellent discussion! Especial thanks to @Brgst13 for providing a step-by-step quantum explanation for how Nalthis objects absorb Investiture (and for agreeing with me!) Electrons like photons are subatomic particles, the subject of quantum physics.

On 4/21/2020 at 0:53 PM, RShara said:

I'm positive that color would be drained from something that had never been exposed to EMR at all.

RShara, I agree with this. My theory posits EMR is Endowment’s Investiture carrier, like metal is for Preservation and water is for Autonomy. EMR can carry any Shard’s Investiture as Awakening’s fuel if that Investiture is in quantum form. I think Breaths (Endowment’s quanta) can only process that Investiture in quantum form. Awakening drains “color” cosmere-wide IMO because Awakeners pull Investiture from an object along this EMR pathway. It is the same mechanic as burning metals and dehydrating, both of which also pull Investiture into a magic user.

Among known planets, “EMR exposure” only explains Nalthis’ and Taldain’s Investiture. I speculate Nalthis’ sun spews Investiture because I can’t find another ambient Investiture source available both on Susebron’s rooftop and in Vasher’s cloak. Not much evidence, but there it is.

On 4/20/2020 at 3:58 PM, Master_Moridin said:

This is not how this works. Photons do not continue to exist within a thing. They cease to exist as their energy is transferred to electrons/atoms.

Master_Moridin, agreed. My point is that the energy (Investiture) transfers into the object through absorbed photons, not the ones that bounce off. That’s why “color” can’t be fuel. You and Brgst13 explain that process well.

On 4/20/2020 at 11:29 PM, R J said:

It does take colour

RJ, I’ve always read that WoB as referring to the Heightenings. Each Breath lost or gained affects a holder’s color. Divine Breath loss should have the same effect. And thank you and @Subvisual Haze for recognizing how black’s Awakening superiority over white favors my theory!

Thermodynamics Challenge

Alas, no one took the challenge. I'm curious how many people share the Discord view that diminishes thermodynamics’ role in magic systems. FWIW, here’s how I read the WoB I quote in the OP.

WoB’s Backdrop: Cosmere thermodynamics first law says the sum of energy, matter, and Investiture is constant (assuming a closed system). Matter, energy, and Investiture cannot be created or destroyed but merely change form into one another.

My Interpretation: Even “end-neutral” Feruchemy really isn’t end-neutral. It requires external Investiture to “facilitate the magic.” I read this to mean external investiture runs Feruchemy’s “operating system.” Without that facilitating Investiture, some of the Investiture created from attribute conversion would have to be diverted to “facilitate” Feruchemy.

Here’s what I consider the most relevant passages, which say the same thing:

Quote

even what they call end-neutral is relying a little bit on the power of Investiture to facilitate. So even an end-neutral magic system as they define it on Scadrial is actually not end-neutral. What you get put in you get out, but the power is facilitating that transfer….

Feruchemy, you are putting Investiture in from your own body, it's your energy transferring to Investiture, which is being stored, which you are then drawing out, and things like that. But that changing forms is facilitated by the magic.

Brandon acknowledges end-neutral Feruchemy needs external Investiture. That argues strongly in favor of thermodynamics’ cosmere importance. To make this point Brandon overrides the earlier WoB that coins the end-neutral concept.

Brandon elsewhere describes Investiture as his "get out" for thermodynamics, the thing that allows the cosmere to break our universe's thermodynamic rules. He does sometimes break the cosmere's version of those rules, as with speed bubbles and FTL. Flawed or not, thermodynamics IMO is the essential guide to magic system mechanics that theorists ignore at their peril.

Edited April 23, 2020 by Confused

[Chiberty]

5 hours ago, Confused said:

Brandon elsewhere describes Investiture as his "get out" for thermodynamics, the thing that allows the cosmere to break our universe's thermodynamic rules. He does sometimes break the cosmere's version of those rules, as with speed bubbles and FTL. Flawed or not, thermodynamics IMO is the essential guide to magic system mechanics that theorists ignore at their peril.

Speed bubbles and FTL don't break the cosmere's thermodynamics. For speed bubbles, Brandon has said there is a realmatic explanation for why there is no redshift, but it's just an odd thing he had to add in just to make sure that didn't happen. For FTL, it initially seems to violate the rules of relativity, but there are workarounds, such as the Albuquerque Drive, which we can't actually build, but would theoretically allow for FTL travel. There is probably something in Allomancy that allows a similar workaround to actually happen. Fabrials, such as spanreeds, allow for some odd things, but their functions can be attributed to a macroscopic effect of the quantum behaviors observed in spren.... sprentanglement.

5 hours ago, Confused said:

My theory posits EMR is Endowment’s Investiture carrier

Would it not be a simpler explanation if Endowment just provided the Investiture via the Spiritual Realm like Preservation, as I suggest in the link in my earlier comment?

Edited April 24, 2020 by ChickenLiberty

[Master_Moridin]

3 hours ago, Confused said:

Master_Moridin, agreed. My point is that the energy (Investiture) transfers into the object through absorbed photons, not the ones that bounce off. That’s why “color” can’t be fuel. You and Brgst13 explain that process well.

None of the photons bounce off, all of the photons are absorbed.

[Fezzik]

On 4/23/2020 at 7:10 PM, ChickenLiberty said:

Albuquerque Drive

It is the opposite of Nascar; it can't ever make that left turn.