asmodeus

On Bondsmith-spren: A Potential Answer to Why the Sibling Slumbers

48 posts in this topic

In Oathbringer 

So while trying to escape from Shadesmar, Shallan is told by the Oathgate Guardian spren that they can't let her in as orders received from "Parent" identified as Honor.....also Stormfather refers to Sibling as "Them".... Urithiru is connected to all these other places via Oathgate(Oaths associated with Honor) which in turn has these huge Guardian Sprens....so my deduction is the whole system of Oathgates is the "Sibling" with the head spren living in Urithiru as the Spren of the tower. And that Spren is slumbering.

1. The name "Sibling"

At first I thought Sibling meant one among 3 super Spren of Roshar. Stormfather, Nightwatcher and their sibling. But Sibling is by itself one among others.

Sibling is not the sibling of Nightwatcher and Stormfather....it is a sibling of Urithiru and Oathgates.

2. Stormfather calling Sibling as "them"

Which suggests a group. A collection of spren. In Oathbringer, during battle of Thaylen City, we see Odium giving specific instructions to secure the Oathgate. If that's not possible then to destroy it. He also says as long as the gemstones of the Oathgate are intact they can be rebuilt in another location. 

This statement made by Odium suggests that the Guardian spren of the Oathgate is contained in these special gemstones. There are 10 Oathgates connected to Urithiru and there is a Spren for the tower as well. So this whole collection of gemstone Sprens are the Sibling hence can be called as Them.

 

3. Honor being "Parent"

Honor died. He did something to weaken and his remaining power went to Stormfather thus awakening him.

I think after several Desolations, humans were losing very badly even with Radiants. So he created Urithiru for them. In Oathbringer Shallan and Dalinar notices the way the crem seemed to has distinct features as strata found in rocks exposed to storms on shattered plains or something along those lines....so Urithiru was created by Honor for the Radiants so they could strategize. Each ten orders of the Knight Radiants were given different set of Oathgate gemstones which Honor created. Connecting all ten to Urithiru which contains Sibling the superspren maybe at base of Tower not yet discovered.

Also Oaths are a thing of Honor.

This is the act that maybe weakened Honor.

At present the Sibling is "Slumbering"...if above deduction is right then Sibling is also a collection of gemstones. So to activate it, Stormlight. Highstorm doesn't reach Urithiru or it is very weak above the clouds....so to activate Sibling, Dalinar will have to open Honor's Perpendicularity on top of the tower thereby activating all the gemstones in the tower and the super gemstone containing Sibling awakening the whole tower.

Does this sound credible to you guys?

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Also I am new to 17th Shard. I am not at all knowledgeable about the flowchart of Surges or how they get connected.

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32 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

Which suggests a group. A collection of spren.

I always took it to be an indication of how Honor was masculine Cultivation was feminine and the sibling as a combination was neither which is indicated by a gender neutral pronoun.  They also bond one bondsmith.  This could be a single plural entity like a hive mind I suppose. 

36 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

At present the Sibling is "Slumbering"...if above deduction is right then Sibling is also a collection of gemstones. So to activate it, Stormlight. Highstorm doesn't reach Urithiru or it is very weak above the clouds....so to activate Sibling, Dalinar will have to open Honor's Perpendicularity on top of the tower thereby activating all the gemstones in the tower and the super gemstone containing Sibling awakening the whole tower.

This doesn't work.  Sorry.  Renarin tried to push Stromlight into it and Navani tried to infuse it.  Neither worked.  However the concept of the oathgates as a single plural entity that connect to the sibling does make sense.  We know that the sibiling and the tower started functioning less around the time the Radiants left.  Perhaps it started slumbering more the more Oathgates were closed.

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So activating all the Oathgates could awaken it.

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2 minutes ago, Wyndle88 said:

So activating all the Oathgates could awaken it.

Assuming that part of your theory is correct then yes.

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7 minutes ago, Karger said:

This doesn't work.  Sorry.  Renarin tried to push Stromlight into it and Navani tried to infuse it.  Neither worked.  However the concept of the oathgates as a single plural entity that connect to the sibling does make sense.  We know that the sibiling and the tower started functioning less around the time the Radiants left.  Perhaps it started slumbering more the more Oathgates were closed.

Renarin and Navani tried to infuse one gemstone of no particular import. The Oathgates gemstones are particularly mentioned to be of specific types. Also Guardian Spren seemed to be of different colours in Kholinar and Thaylen City. Suggesting different types to gemstones.

 

 

Or the colour change is attributed to Sja-anat corrupting the Guardian Spren I'm not sure.

 

 

Thus the main Urithiru gemstone has to be discovered first and then infused. I suspect it to be a gemstone at the base of the tower from mention somewhere that the Sibling retreated ...maybe to the depths of Urithiru.

Edited by Wyndle88
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Just now, Wyndle88 said:

Renarin and Navani tried to infuse one gemstone of no particular import.

They tried to infuse the massive gemstone.

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In that case maybe they

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

They tried to infuse the massive gemstone.

In that case they found the gemstone without the Spren inside. So maybe Sibling is at Urithiru, Shadesmar.

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1 hour ago, Wyndle88 said:

Sibling is not the sibling of Nightwatcher and Stormfather....it is a sibling of Urithiru and Oathgates.

Interesting idea. I don't know about the rest of the theory, but this part would explain something.

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  "But as for the Bondsmiths, they had members only three, which number was not uncommon for them; nor did they seek to increase this by great bounds, for during the times of Madasa, only one of their order was in continual accompaniment of Urithiru and its thrones. Their spren was understood to be specific, and to persuade them to grow to the magnitude of the other orders was seen as seditious.

It could explain how it was possible for the Order of Bondsmiths to increase in size.

 

@Gilphon

Quote

Like- I find that idea of looking at the connections by associating the soulcasting properties to be pretty persuasive. That works well enough that it's probably intentional. And it's kind of the only explanation we need for why the chart looks the way it does?

Quote

William Anderson

Why are do the Windrunners, Elsecallers, Stonewards, and Dustbringers have an extra connection on the Surgebinding diagram? Why do the Edgedancer, Skybreaker, Lightweaver, Willshaper's have a broken connection on the diagram? What are the dragon type things in the back of the diagram?

Brandon Sanderson

The dragon type things are a certain animal you've seen several places in the story so far.

These connections will be explained eventually, but remember it's not the orders being connected, but instead their elemental representations. This diagram is very metaphysical, and some of the elements of it are cultural.

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

Correct.

Edited by ChickenLiberty
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@ChickenLiberty

"It could explain how it was possible for the Order of Bondsmiths to increase in size."

It explains how it won't be not more than 3 actually. One Bondsmith via 3 main Sprens on Roshar. Stormfather, Nightcrawler and Sibling. 

But if there has to be more Bondsmith then the Spren associated with has to be of that much power. Theoretically the only options are each of the Sprens in the collection of Sibling which includes the Sprens of the Oathgate. But those Guardian Sprens won't disobey orders from 'Parent' Honor. Such that these kinda talks are close to being seditious. Meaning going against authority. Which is Honor=Parent. Thus more Bondsmiths are not possible in reality.

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It's been confirmed by Brandon on reddit that the Sibling is gender non-conforming and considers the concept a weird human thing

Quote

UppityDarkeyes

Would you be willing to confirm that the use of 'they' pronouns for the Sibling is because the Sibling is non-binary? Since apparently some people are confused on this point.

Brandon Sanderson

The sibling did not view themselves as male or female. (And considered it odd that so many spren would adopt human genders.

 

Edited by R J
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Here is just a fun tidbit: the Sibling is 'sleeping' and there aren't spren in Shinovar (or not very common) (Rsyn interlude in tWoK I think) In Shinovar, there is a fixation on stone (Szeth mentions stone as 'holy'), something that could definitely have developed after the Sibling went to "sleep." As Asmodeus suggests, the Sibling is related to stone. 

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On 4/17/2020 at 6:09 PM, asmodeus said:

There's a difference. The Old Magic is not nearly the same as the Highstorms, it's more... it's like a one-off thing. It's not some passive feature of the world that just exists, and has become central to the ecology. It's more, people can choose to go to Cultivation and/or the Nightwatcher, and she will tweak them in a certain way, and then that tweak stays with them. It's not really a coherent system, it's more people explaining a service the Shard provides, for reasons the Shard has already given.

The Stormfather is _not_ the source of Surgebinding. The Stormfather is the spren of Highstorms, and that has been a feature on Roshar that predates even the Shattering. The Highstorms shower the world with investiture, and the ecology of the world has evolved to both take into account the coming of such violent storms, the investiture they provide, and the spren that for some reason seem to form on Roshar. Surgebinding is certain spren copying something that Honor did with the Honorblades, and exactly how all of that works is still extremely uncertain. But because the Highstorms have always existed on Roshar, magic that stems from elements of the ecology and nature of that world also uses it's latent way to access investiture, and hence the Radiants are dependent on the Highstorms for access to Stormlight.

The Nightwatcher has not had anything like this. [Spoilers for an excerpt from Rhythm of War] 

  Reveal hidden contents

The Lift excerpt tells us that the Nightwatcher was deliberately kept separated from Humanity, because Cultivation didn't want her to be influenced by their perception too much, as the other spren are (evidenced by their change in genders among themselves). Which only makes her participation in Surgebinding as a spren of the Bondsmiths weird.

As for this:

I don't think this works given what we already know of the Radiants and that whole era. I can tell you my reasoning for why it doesn't work if you want me to.

True the Old Magic is significantly different from the High Storms, but that's kind of the point, right?  Each is powerful in its own way.  You can't do what the highstorms do with the Old Magic, but you also can't do what the Old Magic does with the magic system based around the investiture provided by the High Storms.  I understand that the Stormfather is not the direct source of surgebinding - he didn't create it.  Instead, he's in charge of supplying the power used for it.  So maybe I should have said he is the power source for surgebinding rather than the source.

I'm open to your ideas as to why the Sibling can't be what I think it is.  No guarantees I'll agree though, haha.  Appreciate the work you've put in on this stuff even if it's all a little too tentative for me.

On 4/19/2020 at 1:10 AM, asmodeus said:

I very much disagree - this is not Mistborn. There, the inaccuracy of the magic charts make sense, as information is being actively suppressed in that world, and we were always going to get the magic explored (introduced and tidied up) several times over, so those charts evolving over time is fine.

Stormlight is very different in that regard. The Charts and Religions of this world were deliberately created to carry information as succinctly and in as condensed a manner as possible. Moreover, we're 3/10ths through the story, and we have't gotten that charts updated, and the full narrative itself is going to be covering a period less than a century. While there is some avenue for evolution, it is more likely that the charts hold relevant information than not - particularly when, unlike Mistborn, we still haven't gotten the system and the charts explained to us. Them being wrong doesn't make much sense, because we don't even know what they mean, so there's no payoff. In contrast, we were taught and told exactly what the 10 metals chart was, and why people believed it to be true, before expanding on it and telling us why it was wrong. The 11th metal's very existence, from the beginning of the story, is a potential sign that what people understand is not quite complete, and this plays a crucial role in the whole narrative.

Here, we still don't know exactly who made the charts, why they made it this way, and what they meant to convey through it. So then what's the point of having two charts, if they were never even going to be explained?

I don't think there has to be an intentional conspiracy to hide information for the in world charts of the Radiants to be inaccurate.  During the time of the books, it had been approximately 2000 years since the Recreance.  The quote below is referencing the in world book "Words of Radiance", which specifically says that no one even within 200 years of the Recreance had actual solid information of the orders and their properties.  How could people in the time of the books have any real knowledge?  Even that order that (Sigzil??)'s parents belonged to which considered themselves descendants of the Radiants didn't really know much.  It's all extrapolation from their knowledge of soulcasting and basically anthropology and archaeological research.  That's Sanderson's point - not that there is hidden knowledge to be revealed over time, it's just been a long time in world and there's a gap in historical record.  It seems like the Radiants kept their own records in the gem library of Urithiru.  Once the Radiants were gone, no one could read their history so it was lost.  So the in world information is all educated guesses.  Some of it might be right, some might be actually wrong (i.e. theoretically ), some might just be red herrings (i.e. some of those lines of connection might be theories by in world scholars when it turns out there is no actual connection that exists).

Quote

The book had a chapter for each order of Knights Radiant, with talk of their traditions, their abilities, and their attitudes.  The author admitted that a lot of it was hearsay - the book had been written two hundred years after the Recreance, and by then facts, lore, and superstition had mixed freely. Words of Radiance Ch. 77 (Pg 938 hardback)

 

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On 4/21/2020 at 3:26 PM, agrabes said:

 (Sigzil??)'s parents belonged to which considered themselves descendants of the Radiants

Envisagers and it was Teft's parents.

a lot of the Secret Societies have info that propably when put together would form a complete picture, I mean look at what Taravangain did with what knowledge was available to him, and what Jashna did with the same info. All the pieces are there it's that the people who hold them aren't willing to share.

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On 4/20/2020 at 8:56 AM, Wyndle88 said:

@ChickenLiberty

"It could explain how it was possible for the Order of Bondsmiths to increase in size."

It explains how it won't be not more than 3 actually. One Bondsmith via 3 main Sprens on Roshar. Stormfather, Nightcrawler and Sibling. 

But if there has to be more Bondsmith then the Spren associated with has to be of that much power. Theoretically the only options are each of the Sprens in the collection of Sibling which includes the Sprens of the Oathgate. But those Guardian Sprens won't disobey orders from 'Parent' Honor. Such that these kinda talks are close to being seditious. Meaning going against authority. Which is Honor=Parent. Thus more Bondsmiths are not possible in reality.

People theorize that Cusicesh the Protector could perhaps be Bonded, or the Unmade or some of the unique spren that Nazh encountered in the Sea of Lost Lights

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We know that Oathgates of Shinovar doesn't come up on a map. It could mean the Shin places and even capital of the country are kept out of the records intentionally.

Or it could be that they don't have a standing fixed Oathgate. We know Oathgate Sprens are contained in gemstones. So the Shin may be using the gemstones to construct the Oathgate at convenience . Maybe they are a nomadic people.

We know that before Szeth was declared Truthless they asked the "Spirit of Stones". That could be the Oathgate spren. Who confirmed Radiants are not back in Urithiru as their sibling "Sibling" ( Spren of Stone) is still sleeping. 

If the Shin stones are asked even now, they might still say Knight Radiants are not back as the Sibling is still slumbering. This could be the reason they refuse to join the Coalition of Dalinar.

So physically going there might be the key. The Shin seeing a Radiant. Which Szeth can deliver for Dalinar.

This is more proof of Sibling being 'siblings among gemstones of Oathgates and Urithiru'.

 

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On 4/18/2020 at 10:12 PM, Karger said:

It also seems odd that she is considered the stormfather's counterpart and equal in a lot of ways but is not of a similar "age."

Age doesnt determine your status. Power does.

They were "created" with(probably) similar power levels but at different times. Whats so odd about that?

 

 

On 4/18/2020 at 10:10 PM, asmodeus said:

(Singers depend on the Highstorms to form-change, including switching between fertile and non-fertile versions of their gender)

A singer in any form could have a kid. Mateform is just a specialization.

Edited by Eternal Khol
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2 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

A singer in any form could have a kid. Mateform is just a specialization.

 

Quote

ladyknightradiant

Have we seen all four of the genders for the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. 

ladyknightradiant

So it's more than just malen and femalen?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, male and female. So, basically, in my original notes I was trying to decide if I should call them [something else?] but they-- eventually we ended up-- It's basically, they have a male neuter and female neuter, and then a male and a female. So yes, there are four genders. [...] And, if you can't tell, the malen and femalen are both asexual, completely.

Footnote: Of note, but irrelevant to this entry, is that the questioner, ladyknightradiant, is the one who put together the Where's My Chull? children's book for Brandon. You can find the full illustrations here.
Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

 

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1 minute ago, asmodeus said:

 

 

Maybe its not every form but its certainly not just mateform thats capable of producing

 

 

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 19, 2015)

Edited by Eternal Khol
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Just now, Eternal Khol said:

This WoB is newer

 

RenegadeShroom

You said earlier that Parshendi are primarily asexual, does that extend to all Listeners -- parshmen, and those descended from Listeners, like Horneaters and Herdazians -- or is it just the Parshendi?

Brandon Sanderson

Most Listener forms are asexual, but several forms are different, including slaveform. Horneaters and Herdazians are not, as a rule, though there are higher instances of asexuality among them.

uchoo786

I was actually wondering about how Parshmen would reproduce if they are only in slaveform? I thought one had to be in mateform in order to reproduce?

Also, could Horneaters and Herdazians change forms as well?

Brandon Sanderson

For the first, mateform is not the only form capable of producing--any more than warform is the only one capable of swinging a sword. The forms are specializations.

For the second, RAFO.

/r/books AMA 2015 (May 19, 2015)

huh.

I did not know this.

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10 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

We know that Oathgates of Shinovar doesn't come up on a map. It could mean the Shin places and even capital of the country are kept out of the records intentionally.

Or it could be that they don't have a standing fixed Oathgate. We know Oathgate Sprens are contained in gemstones. So the Shin may be using the gemstones to construct the Oathgate at convenience . Maybe they are a nomadic people.

We know that before Szeth was declared Truthless they asked the "Spirit of Stones". That could be the Oathgate spren. Who confirmed Radiants are not back in Urithiru as their sibling "Sibling" ( Spren of Stone) is still sleeping. 

If the Shin stones are asked even now, they might still say Knight Radiants are not back as the Sibling is still slumbering. This could be the reason they refuse to join the Coalition of Dalinar.

So physically going there might be the key. The Shin seeing a Radiant. Which Szeth can deliver for Dalinar.

This is more proof of Sibling being 'siblings among gemstones of Oathgates and Urithiru'.

 

That's a clever theory! I like it! If this is the case, do you think we'll be visiting Shinovar in Book 4 then? I think the main theory is that we'll meet and wake the "sibling" in Book 4.

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The disconnect I think you guys are running into here is that 'asexual' doesn't mean 'incapable of reproduction'. It's vaguely possible that Brandon was using the word that way, but given the way he talks about Herdazians and Horneaters being more likely to be asexual, I don't think he was. 

So those two WoBs don't actually contradict each other.

But I think Asmodeus' original point stands; their instincts are calibrated in a way that means that without the Highstorms, they probably wouldn't reproduce frequently enough to maintain the race. 

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On 25/04/2020 at 3:14 AM, Wyndle88 said:

We know that Oathgates of Shinovar doesn't come up on a map. It could mean the Shin places and even capital of the country are kept out of the records intentionally.

Or it could be that they don't have a standing fixed Oathgate. We know Oathgate Sprens are contained in gemstones. So the Shin may be using the gemstones to construct the Oathgate at convenience . Maybe they are a nomadic people.

We know that before Szeth was declared Truthless they asked the "Spirit of Stones". That could be the Oathgate spren. Who confirmed Radiants are not back in Urithiru as their sibling "Sibling" ( Spren of Stone) is still sleeping. 

If the Shin stones are asked even now, they might still say Knight Radiants are not back as the Sibling is still slumbering. This could be the reason they refuse to join the Coalition of Dalinar.

So physically going there might be the key. The Shin seeing a Radiant. Which Szeth can deliver for Dalinar.

This is more proof of Sibling being 'siblings among gemstones of Oathgates and Urithiru'.

 

Personally I think this is overthought. Hasn't Brandon said that the thing with the Sibling is less complicated than is being theorised? 

Couldn't it be as simple as:

- The sibling is slumbering in Shinovar for some reason or another, thus their reverence of stone. The shin know a good deal about this deity, and know more or less why it is slumbering (radiants broke their oaths and hurt or drained it in some way).

- When they asked the "Spirit of Stones" before declaring Szeth truthless, they were looking for a reply from a spirit that wouldn't respond because it is slumbering/dormant/hibernating.

Didn't Rysn's interlude in WoK have a story about people worshiping a king who had actually died and they didn't admit/realise it?? Would be an interesting hint without being too literal.

- Then: "Let's consult the oracle/god to see if this guy is a Radiant or Truthless." "Ah, the oracle/god still slumbers. He's the god of the Radiant's tower, so if they were back he would have woken up." "Sorry Szeth son son Vallero, here's your oath stone." 

Also, it seems clear that the Shin are not nomadic, as they have their land (which was cultivated just for them to live on) closed off to most of the world. 

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