Deducing RoW character groupings

[LuckyJim]

What if group 3 is meant to be Venli and Moash/Vyre? My main assumption in this is that Venli is still with the Voidbringer army, she's a Knight Radiant now, but the singers are still her people, and I would assume her allegiance is to them first. Even if she knows that Odium is bad for the future of her people and Dalinar seems cool, she can't trust humanity as a whole to have their best interests in mind. We also know that she's going to have a smaller role in comparison to other flashback characters in the past.

On the other hand we have Moash, another major character still in the Voidbringer army. He had a lot of build up in Oathbringer, both in developing his character and motivations, and becoming a highly respected figure in the Voidbringer army, to the point that he's basically an honorary member of the Heavenly Ones. I think its safe to say that we can expect more from Moash than for him to just be a antagonist to hate and then get unceremoniously killed off, I think there's going to be some good development for him in the future.

There's some decent room to have these characters and their current headspaces bounce off of each other, they both have highly respected positions in the army, but have very different reactions. Venli is dealing with her guilt of unleashing the apocalypse and is trying to move forward and help her people, she's currently part of the Radiant order that valued freedom, fought oppression and built new social structures. Meanwhile Moash is also dealing with his guilt of betraying his friends, and disillusionment of his people as a whole after fully recognizing just how corrupt they've become, but does this by just giving up on life, and completely submitting to Odium's will. Maybe Moash would be an antagonist for Venli to overcome, he has respect and sway over the singers so she has to convince them to follow her instead, or maybe she can help Moash break Odium's influence and help him become a force for positive change instead of accepting destruction.

I could be completely wrong I just really like both of these characters, and I'm excited to see the directions they go.

Edited September 13, 2020 by LuckyJim

[Ailvara]

12 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

What if group 3 is meant to be Venli and Moash/Vyre?

Cool theory, but doesn't fit the outline. Venli has POV in Part 1 which doesn't include Group 3.

My current best guess is:

Group 1: Kaladin, Navani, Venli, Dalinar, Lirin

Group 2: Shallan, Adolin

Group 3: Renarin, Jasnah

By popular assumption, Shallan and Adolin in Group 2. They have an arc set up that is very important to the plot (makes Group 3 less likely) but separate from the main conflict (makes Group 1 less likely), it doesn't look like they're joined by too many, if any, main characters (almost rules out Group 1) and they are both prominent in Part 1, with Shallan's POVs (which pretty much excludes Group 3).

That leaves Kaladin, Navani and Venli in Group 1 since they have their POVs in Part 1 and come on, none of these is going to fall into tertiary plot in this book.

I believe that for the moment Lirin fits perfectly the description of the very minor character with one POV in Group 1. He's also likely to stick around as a secondary character given he's coming to Urithiru and he's bound to have some interactions at least with Kaladin. That prevents him from being so minor that we should exclude him altogether and look for another slightly less minor character with one POV instead, which we don't have now anyway.

In Group 1 I'm less sure about Dalinar, but it makes most sense to assume this group will be tied to everything around the main conflict, war, politics, Urithiru, arms race and so on, and I can hardly imagine him staying out of it. He appears in Part 1 without POV which would make him the second character of Groups 1 and 2 who doesn't have POVs yet (as we have 7 characters in these groups and 5 POVs in Part 1; Adolin being the second one). If Jasnah or Renarin becomes more involved in Part 1 later on, and it's about the main conflict, I may reconsider.

Finally, Group 3, which I'm least sure of. Jasnah is going to have some chapters, so she should be included somewhere, but not many, which makes her fit Group 3 well enough. My best bet at who is the last character counted in the groups is Renarin, mostly due to his importance. Another possibility would be Szeth, but it looks like he only has an interlude, so he wouldn't be counted in any group after all, which leaves Renarin without decent competition. Having him interact with Jasnah a lot also makes sense. The biggest question is, since they will most likely stay close to Group 1, what could be so distinct about them that would make them a separate plotline. My theory is that, using Renarin's Truthwatcher powers and Jasnah's political instinct, they will be the ones to deal with Taravangian. They could also move from Urithiru to the warcamps and have some problems to deal with there, separated from Urithiru.

Edited September 13, 2020 by Ailvara

[agrabes]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:16 PM, Chiberty said:

He's not imprisoned by Dalinar, Dalinar told him to go to prison, presumably at Urithiru, which also happens to be what seems like the most likely location for Group 1 right now. Nobody has to accept him to go on a critical mission; he could just stay at Urithiru.

Dalinar telling Szeth to go to prison means the same thing as saying Dalinar imprisoned Szeth.  I'm not sure if you thought I was implying Dalinar was serving as Szeth's jail keeper or that Dalinar personally built a special jail capable of holding him or something?  Either way, all I'm saying is that Szeth is in jail because of Dalinar.

If Szeth is in jail, you're right that the most likely location is Urithiru.  But I just don't see a reason for him to be interacting with the characters of group 1.  He's in jail, they don't like him, and they are busy with other things.  I think if Szeth would be considered Group 1 especially without a POV during the Group 1 chapters, then I think he would need to have significant interaction with at least one of the Group 1 characters.  I just don't see it.  

2 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Cool theory, but doesn't fit the outline. Venli has POV in Part 1 which doesn't include Group 3.

My current best guess is:

Group 1: Kaladin, Navani, Venli, Dalinar, Lirin

Group 2: Shallan, Adolin

Group 3: Renarin, Jasnah

By popular assumption, Shallan and Adolin in Group 2. They have an arc set up that is very important to the plot (makes Group 3 less likely) but separate from the main conflict (makes Group 1 less likely), it doesn't look like they're joined by too many, if any, main characters (almost rules out Group 1) and they are both prominent in Part 1, with Shallan's POVs (which pretty much excludes Group 3).

That leaves Kaladin, Navani and Venli in Group 1 since they have their POVs in Part 1 and come on, none of these is going to fall into tertiary plot in this book.

I believe that for the moment Lirin fits perfectly the description of the very minor character with one POV in Group 1. He's also likely to stick around as a secondary character given he's coming to Urithiru and he's bound to have some interactions at least with Kaladin. That prevents him from being so minor that we should exclude him altogether and look for another slightly less minor character with one POV instead, which we don't have now anyway.

In Group 1 I'm less sure about Dalinar, but it makes most sense to assume this group will be tied to everything around the main conflict, war, politics, Urithiru, arms race and so on, and I can hardly imagine him staying out of it. He appears in Part 1 without POV which would make him the second character of Groups 1 and 2 who doesn't have POVs yet (as we have 7 characters in these groups and 5 POVs in Part 1; Adolin being the second one). If Jasnah or Renarin becomes more involved in Part 1 later on, and it's about the main conflict, I may reconsider.

Finally, Group 3, which I'm least sure of. Jasnah is going to have some chapters, so she should be included somewhere, but not many, which makes her fit Group 3 well enough. My best bet at who is the last character counted in the groups is Renarin, mostly due to his importance. Another possibility would be Szeth, but it looks like he only has an interlude, so he wouldn't be counted in any group after all, which leaves Renarin without decent competition. Having him interact with Jasnah a lot also makes sense. The biggest question is, since they will most likely stay close to Group 1, what could be so distinct about them that would make them a separate plotline. My theory is that, using Renarin's Truthwatcher powers and Jasnah's political instinct, they will be the ones to deal with Taravangian. They could also move from Urithiru to the warcamps and have some problems to deal with there, separated from Urithiru.

I don't think Dalinar can be Group 1.  We've been told he has a smaller role in this book and he has no POVs in a part of the story marked as Group 1/Group 2.  At this point, Dalinar is pretty much locked to Group 3.  I think that Dalinar will be focused on something that is important, but different from what the main group is doing.  He has to think Big Picture now and can't be involved with individual missions.  So he's likely keeping track of the main mission and will come along to help when needed like he does for the Hearthstone evacuation, but his primary goal is something else.  I do think Lirin is the most likely candidate for the 5th person in Group 1 though.

[Chiberty]

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

If Szeth is in jail, you're right that the most likely location is Urithiru.  But I just don't see a reason for him to be interacting with the characters of group 1.  He's in jail, they don't like him, and they are busy with other things.  I think if Szeth would be considered Group 1 especially without a POV during the Group 1 chapters, then I think he would need to have significant interaction with at least one of the Group 1 characters.  I just don't see it.  

Well, we do know that he'll have significant roles in other viewpoint chapters. The reddit comment linked a couple posts back said that "he appears in several chapters and does a some very relevant things to the plot, but always through other viewpoints."

[Ailvara]

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

Dalinar telling Szeth to go to prison means the same thing as saying Dalinar imprisoned Szeth.

Not the same because it doesn't say anything about whether Szeth is there as prisoner or not.

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

I don't think Dalinar can be Group 1.  We've been told he has a smaller role in this book and he has no POVs in a part of the story marked as Group 1/Group 2.  At this point, Dalinar is pretty much locked to Group 3.  I think that Dalinar will be focused on something that is important, but different from what the main group is doing.  He has to think Big Picture now and can't be involved with individual missions.  So he's likely keeping track of the main mission and will come along to help when needed like he does for the Hearthstone evacuation, but his primary goal is something else.  I do think Lirin is the most likely candidate for the 5th person in Group 1 though.

I double checked the WoB and it turns out I remembered it wrong. There is one character in Group 1 who has just one chapter but it is an interlude, so looks like Szeth after all. Which means one of the others has to go but also that I'm not so convinced Lirin is there anymore (I assumed he was the character with one POV but in this scenario he gets a slot where he needs to have a few). Dalinar taking the back seat doesn't mean he's not Group 1 because two characters there are supposed to be much less prominent and also at least one doesn't have a POV in Part 1.

I'm not sure which one I'm more inclined towards ATM. The argument for Lirin is that he's already had a chapter in the right part, but it can still turn out to be just that like WoK first chapter. If it's him it means Dalinar replaces Renarin in Group 3 (the only character we haven't been told if he has POVs or not) and it doesn't look quite right that Renarin is not counted in but Lirin is. It's also more difficult to think about a storyline that could include Dalinar and Jasnah that would be distinctly separate from characters in Group 1.

So with correction:

Group 1: Kaladin, Navani, Venli, Szeth, Lirin/Dalinar

Group 2: Shallan, Adolin

Group 3: Jasnah, Dalinar/Renarin

Edited September 14, 2020 by Ailvara

[+Oltux72]

18 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Cool theory, but doesn't fit the outline. Venli has POV in Part 1 which doesn't include Group 3.

My current best guess is:

Group 1: Kaladin, Navani, Venli, Dalinar, Lirin

Group 2: Shallan, Adolin

Group 3: Renarin, Jasnah

I am afraid I must point out the inconsistency here. Renarin has been in Part 1. Why can't Venli while still belonging to another group? I would still argue that we are only formally in part 1. In terms of story we are still in the culmination of the gap year.

18 hours ago, Ailvara said:

I believe that for the moment Lirin fits perfectly the description of the very minor character with one POV in Group 1. He's also likely to stick around as a secondary character given he's coming to Urithiru and he's bound to have some interactions at least with Kaladin. That prevents him from being so minor that we should exclude him altogether and look for another slightly less minor character with one POV instead, which we don't have now anyway.

Why would Lirin be more important for Kaladin than Hesina?

 

[Chiberty]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid I must point out the inconsistency here. Renarin has been in Part 1. Why can't Venli while still belonging to another group? I would still argue that we are only formally in part 1. In terms of story we are still in the culmination of the gap year.

The difference is that Venli will have a PoV in Part 1, but Renarin will not. Brandon directly said within the outline chart:

Quote

Group Three: Not Written Yet. (Though these characters have roles in Part One, they have no viewpoints.)

 

[Ailvara]

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why would Lirin be more important for Kaladin than Hesina?

Who said he would? If what you're really asking about is why I considered Lirin and not Hesina for the groups it's because it's POV groups and he's got a POV.

The first question @Chiberty has already answered, thanks.

[agrabes]

16 hours ago, Chiberty said:

Well, we do know that he'll have significant roles in other viewpoint chapters. The reddit comment linked a couple posts back said that "he appears in several chapters and does a some very relevant things to the plot, but always through other viewpoints."

Thanks I must not have caught that part.  Well, I'll just downgrade it to - I don't want Szeth to be in Group 1 - then haha.  I mean, the statement there does line up with what I'd expect - Szeth still should have some relevance in the story and appear in several chapters as one of the 5 flashback characters.  I think this is the book he has to get in the good graces of the rest of Team Radiant.  He could be Group 1, or theoretically Group 2 (sent to Shadesmar to stay out of the public eye) though that seems extremely unlikely.  But, my hope/assumption is that he'll be teaming up with the Group 3 characters working on a secondary plot or providing some knowledge on the Skybreakers or Shin from his place in prison, eventually earning his way back out.

7 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Not the same because it doesn't say anything about whether Szeth is there as prisoner or not.

I double checked the WoB and it turns out I remembered it wrong. There is one character in Group 1 who has just one chapter but it is an interlude, so looks like Szeth after all. Which means one of the others has to go but also that I'm not so convinced Lirin is there anymore (I assumed he was the character with one POV but in this scenario he gets a slot where he needs to have a few). Dalinar taking the back seat doesn't mean he's not Group 1 because two characters there are supposed to be much less prominent and also at least one doesn't have a POV in Part 1.

I'm not sure which one I'm more inclined towards ATM. The argument for Lirin is that he's already had a chapter in the right part, but it can still turn out to be just that like WoK first chapter. If it's him it means Dalinar replaces Renarin in Group 3 (the only character we haven't been told if he has POVs or not) and it doesn't look quite right that Renarin is not counted in but Lirin is. It's also more difficult to think about a storyline that could include Dalinar and Jasnah that would be distinctly separate from characters in Group 1.

So with correction:

Group 1: Kaladin, Navani, Venli, Szeth, Lirin/Dalinar

Group 2: Shallan, Adolin

Group 3: Jasnah, Dalinar/Renarin

Is there anything that says the minor Group 1 character's POV will definitely only be in an interlude?  Last I'd seen, it was that they would have only one or possibly even no POVs and they may appear only in an interlude.  There could easily be an update I missed though.  I think it's going to be hard to pin down that minor Group 1 character until we actually read the book because there do tend to be characters who randomly get one or two POVs throughout the books but do not appear in the outlines that Sanderson sends out.

[Ailvara]

48 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Is there anything that says the minor Group 1 character's POV will definitely only be in an interlude?  Last I'd seen, it was that they would have only one or possibly even no POVs and they may appear only in an interlude.  There could easily be an update I missed though.  I think it's going to be hard to pin down that minor Group 1 character until we actually read the book because there do tend to be characters who randomly get one or two POVs throughout the books but do not appear in the outlines that Sanderson sends out.

Same old WoB:

Quote

The first group is the largest, and the most involved, with five viewpoints characters. Two of these, however, will have only a few viewpoints (and one might just appear in other viewpoints, save for an interlude.)

It's a slightly unfortunate phrasing that could be understood as "there will be one viewpoint (interlude) where this character won't appear" but it of course doesn't make sense so it needs to mean "there is one viewpoint (interlude) where they don't just appear (only have a POV)".

Well, there may be a potentially infinite number of 1-POV characters but there's a limit on which characters are counted in (nine). If there is another character which fits this description for Group 1 minor/interlude-only character as well as Szeth does (which there currently isn't anyway), then we've got a problem. Although there is no one else left that would be one of "main" characters for the first 5 so given such doubts Szeth would still be the first in line.

Edited September 14, 2020 by Ailvara

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

Same old WoB:

It's a slightly unfortunate phrasing that could be understood as "there will be one viewpoint (interlude) where this character won't appear" but it of course doesn't make sense so it needs to mean "there is one viewpoint (interlude) where they don't just appear (only have a POV)".

Well, there may be a potentially infinite number of 1-POV characters but there's a limit on which characters are counted in (nine). If there is another character which fits this description for Group 1 minor/interlude-only character as well as Szeth does (which there currently isn't anyway), then we've got a problem. Although there is no one else left that would be one of "main" characters for the first 5 so given such doubts Szeth would still be the first in line.

Thanks - yeah it's funny how memory can play tricks on you.  In my memory, that 5th group 1 slot seemed to be 50/50 whether or not it would get POVs, but reading the WoB it seems much more to be saying the character will probably not get a regular chapter POV.  You're right that what we've heard of Szeth does seem like he probably is that last Group 1 spot.  Much as I don't want it to be true.  It still could be someone else - such as Renarin or the Herdazian general for example.  I feel like that general will be an important character in this book based on his introduction so early.  It's possible Szeth could take a role like Navani has in most past books - still important but primarily only seen through other characters' eyes.  

But, yeah it does seem suspiciously like it will be Szeth with what we've heard.

[Chiberty]

Here's some information we just got about the main characters for this book. When asked if the main characters for RoW would be Kaladin, Shallan, Navani, and Venli, Brandon said this:

The most significant part of this is the confirmation that Taravangian will get a fair number of viewpoints. He seems to be a minor viewpoint character, so he either takes a slot in Group 1, in Group 3, or as the interlude throughline.

On a lesser note, there are 9 characters listed here in total. The character grouping format includes 10 spots (5 in G1, 2 in G2, 2 in G3, and 1 interlude arc). Of course, Eshonai is just in flashbacks, so only 8 characters of significance are really listed, leaving 2 spots left in the outline that should have less than a "fair number" of viewpoints, which seems to be the rough threshold given here. That threshold is mostly just an interesting element to consider when thinking about the remaining 2 slots on the outline (one of which is Szeth, if my original analysis is to be believed). Whether these lesser slots are both from Group 1 or if they are split between Groups 1 and 3 is unclear.

Edited September 18, 2020 by Chiberty

[LuckyJim]

On 9/18/2020 at 0:06 AM, Chiberty said:

Here's some information we just got about the main characters for this book. When asked if the main characters for RoW would be Kaladin, Shallan, Navani, and Venli, Brandon said this:

The most significant part of this is the confirmation that Taravangian will get a fair number of viewpoints. He seems to be a minor viewpoint character, so he either takes a slot in Group 1, in Group 3, or as the interlude throughline.

On a lesser note, there are 9 characters listed here in total. The character grouping format includes 10 spots (5 in G1, 2 in G2, 2 in G3, and 1 interlude arc). Of course, Eshonai is just in flashbacks, so only 8 characters of significance are really listed, leaving 2 spots left in the outline that should have less than a "fair number" of viewpoints, which seems to be the rough threshold given here. That threshold is mostly just an interesting element to consider when thinking about the remaining 2 slots on the outline (one of which is Szeth, if my original analysis is to be believed). Whether these lesser slots are both from Group 1 or if they are split between Groups 1 and 3 is unclear.

Perhaps the third group is Jasnah and Taravangian. Both characters are major leaders, and probably have to deal with more internal political struggles. At the same time, they both have a greater understanding of the larger conflict, Taravangian through his new alliegiance with Odium, dealings with Cultivation and the Diagram as a whole, while Jasnah also has knowledge of her own through her dealings with Taln and Ash, Hoid and he travels in Shadesmar. This would make for a sort of background story, while the more important dealings of the actual war, fabrial advances and the listener movement take the foreground.

The first group would likely then be Kaladin, Dalinar, Navani, Venli and perhaps Szeth through minor contributions and interludes, or if not him, Renarin.

[agrabes]

9 hours ago, LuckyJim said:

Perhaps the third group is Jasnah and Taravangian. Both characters are major leaders, and probably have to deal with more internal political struggles. At the same time, they both have a greater understanding of the larger conflict, Taravangian through his new alliegiance with Odium, dealings with Cultivation and the Diagram as a whole, while Jasnah also has knowledge of her own through her dealings with Taln and Ash, Hoid and he travels in Shadesmar. This would make for a sort of background story, while the more important dealings of the actual war, fabrial advances and the listener movement take the foreground.

The first group would likely then be Kaladin, Dalinar, Navani, Venli and perhaps Szeth through minor contributions and interludes, or if not him, Renarin.

I like the idea of Jasnah/Taravangian as Group 3.  Forced to work together as monarchs of Rosharan nations in the coalition, Jasnah trying her best to figure out what Taravangian is really up to.

But it's also still hard to say.  Taravangian's had at least a decent number of POVs in the last few books but never made "the list" before.  So I'm somewhat skeptical he would count as one of the 10 characters in Sanderson's outline.  I'd be more inclined to say that Group 3 is Jasnah/Dalinar with a dose of Taravangian mixed in as an "unlisted" character but still the same plotline as you are suggesting.  Who knows though, I don't think that Navani's made the list before either and we know for sure she's on it this time and plays a fairly prominent role.

Another possibility that could be interesting is Dalinar as the POV "throughline" character, removing him from the list as he wouldn't be part of one of the Groups.  This would make sense since we know Dalinar takes a bit of a step back this book.  We see him back in Urithiru, watching the flock and get his emotions as he struggles with becoming the leader of the Knights Radiant and all that entails.  We already have a hint of this in the Syl Interlude.  This would free up a Jasnah/Taravangian Group 3.

[Chiberty]

Here's a little bit more info:

Quote

Love-that-dog

I’m curious, based on Adolin’s behavior towards his father getting more and more rebellious and antagonistic.

Did Dalinar tell his family about Evi and what he was confessing g before the book was published or did they find out like the general public?

Brandon Sanderson

He kind of told them. He had the book read to Adolin and Renarin, in draft form, before he started releasing those drafts.

General Reddit 2020 (Oct. 20, 2020)

Cthaehen

Can you maybe tell us something about how much of the text in this book is devoted to the happenings of the past year (especially with Dawnshard not being an absolute pre-requisite to understand RoW)? How much can we expect to see of Renarin's journey, because that's an important variable in Odium's plan? I guess with the word/page limit though, it would also make sense to portray the characters just dealing with the aftermath of the events.

Brandon Sanderson

From here out, not a TON is devoted to the past year. We get a lot more from Adolin on how he's feeling than from Renarin, but I did find time to slip a little Renarin in later in the book. And what is there does relate to the questions you are asking here.

General Reddit 2020 (Sept. 24, 2020)

 

So we know that Renarin will get some PoVs, but the way Brandon said that he "found time" to put that in makes it unclear if this was part of the original outline and just uncertain, or if it was something he decided to add in later.

Edited November 11, 2020 by Chiberty

[Black_Shoshan]

From chapter 14:

Quote

“Yes,” Raboniel said. “The device preventing us from attacking them there can be inverted. We will need to lure the Elsecaller and the Bondsmith away..."

...

“Your proposal is bold, Raboniel,” one of the Nine said. “And decisive. We have long been without your guidance in this Return, and we welcome your Passion. We will move forward as you request. Prepare a team for your infiltration of the tower, and we shall contact the human Taravangian with instructions. He can divert the Bondsmith and Elsecaller.”

I think this might mean group 3 is Dalinar and Jasnah. 

Group 1 is the plotline in Urithiru: Venli, Navani, Kaladin, and the other two characters (Szeth? Taravangian? Renarin? Lift? whoever they are)

Group 2 is Shallan and Adolin in Shadesmar

Group 3 is Dalinar and Jasnah is a third location, that is somewhere Taravangian lured them to.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Black_Shoshan

[Pagerunner]

All right, with the final RoW chapter, we can finally close the book on the groupings. They are:

Navani/Venli/Kaladin/Lift/Szeth

Shallan/Adolin

Dalinar/Jasnah.

If you had those groupings as your predictions, come on down and claim your tickets. (Who's the earliest person to call those groupings, I wonder? Can anyone beat July 26th?)

Brandon just said that Lift was moved out of the group 2 honorspren expedition during drafting, so that confirms her as a main character and explains why the earliest updates had the character split at 4/3/2, with later updates at 5/2/2. And Szeth was confirmed a while back.

Also of note is that Taravangian will be our interlude character.

[LuckyJim]

12 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

All right, with the final RoW chapter, we can finally close the book on the groupings. They are:

Navani/Venli/Kaladin/Lift/Szeth

Shallan/Adolin

Dalinar/Jasnah.

If you had those groupings as your predictions, come on down and claim your tickets. (Who's the earliest person to call those groupings, I wonder? Can anyone beat July 26th?)

Brandon just said that Lift was moved out of the group 2 honorspren expedition during drafting, so that confirms her as a main character and explains why the earliest updates had the character split at 4/3/2, with later updates at 5/2/2. And Szeth was confirmed a while back.

Also of note is that Taravangian will be our interlude character.

Was it confirmed that Lift and Szeth would be part of those groupings? I thought they were only going to get an interlude.

[agrabes]

53 minutes ago, Pagerunner said:

All right, with the final RoW chapter, we can finally close the book on the groupings. They are:

Navani/Venli/Kaladin/Lift/Szeth

Shallan/Adolin

Dalinar/Jasnah.

If you had those groupings as your predictions, come on down and claim your tickets. (Who's the earliest person to call those groupings, I wonder? Can anyone beat July 26th?)

Brandon just said that Lift was moved out of the group 2 honorspren expedition during drafting, so that confirms her as a main character and explains why the earliest updates had the character split at 4/3/2, with later updates at 5/2/2. And Szeth was confirmed a while back.

Also of note is that Taravangian will be our interlude character.

I would argue based on what we read in today's chapter and the other info we have that group one won't include both Lift and Szeth. We know that Lift's and Szeth's only POVs will be in interludes, with Szeth maybe getting one POV in the "main" book.  I find it hard to imagine that the Group 1 characters would include two that don't have any POVs.  Could be wrong, but just seems odd.

I think only one of Szeth or Lift will be considered part of "Group 1".  Much as I argued against it earlier, I think it's Szeth.  He's one of the front 5 main characters so I think he'll play a role on screen without POVs during the presumed battle for Urithiru.  That will be his ticket out of jail.

I think the final spot will be filled by Renarin or a Knight Radiant in Urithiru who gets elevated to the secondary cast.  Maybe Sigzil or Teft, or maybe someone from a lesser known order.

Not that this matters much anymore.  Nor that I've been right on just about anything I've predicted before.  I'm excited for Tuesday.

 

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Pagerunner said:

All right, with the final RoW chapter, we can finally close the book on the groupings. They are:

Navani/Venli/Kaladin/Lift/Szeth

Shallan/Adolin

Dalinar/Jasnah.

If you had those groupings as your predictions, come on down and claim your tickets. (Who's the earliest person to call those groupings, I wonder? Can anyone beat July 26th?)

Brandon just said that Lift was moved out of the group 2 honorspren expedition during drafting, so that confirms her as a main character and explains why the earliest updates had the character split at 4/3/2, with later updates at 5/2/2. And Szeth was confirmed a while back.

Also of note is that Taravangian will be our interlude character.

These all certainly seem to be the case. I will point out, however, that Lift's placement, while likely correct, is based only on a conjecture, although a very likely one. I expect that this will indeed be the grouping, although if one is different, it will be Lift's. 

Congratulations! Your prediction is the closest one I've seen, only missing the interlude character. I only ever made one complete prediction, back in December, and I only missed Lift's and Taravangian's spots. I believe that that had been the closest, all the way up until July, when you got Lift's spot. 

While I agree that Lift being in Group 1 is most likely, I do wonder: What if the additional Group 1 character was different from the one removed from Group 2? Is it possible that Renarin, who we know stays at Urithiru, and who seems to not have been in the original outline, and was added as a viewpoint after Part 1, could actually be this Group 1 character, although Lift was removed from Group 2?

Edited November 11, 2020 by Chiberty

[Pagerunner]

1 hour ago, LuckyJim said:

Was it confirmed that Lift and Szeth would be part of those groupings? I thought they were only going to get an interlude.

32 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I would argue based on what we read in today's chapter and the other info we have that group one won't include both Lift and Szeth. We know that Lift's and Szeth's only POVs will be in interludes, with Szeth maybe getting one POV in the "main" book.  I find it hard to imagine that the Group 1 characters would include two that don't have any POVs.  Could be wrong, but just seems odd.

I think only one of Szeth or Lift will be considered part of "Group 1".  Much as I argued against it earlier, I think it's Szeth.  He's one of the front 5 main characters so I think he'll play a role on screen without POVs during the presumed battle for Urithiru.  That will be his ticket out of jail.

The WoBs I linked in my most recent post have Brandon referring to both Szeth and Lift in the A/B/C plot structure he's been using to describe these groups, so that's how we know they're the last two characters to round out our list. We Also know that there are only three core characters to the main group, and that before he wrote their sequence he was expecting the other two of them to have only a few viewpoints. He was modifying these plans throughout the writing process (as I linked in my July post), so it looks to me like planned Szeth viewpoints got trimmed out during drafting.

37 minutes ago, Chiberty said:

While I agree that Lift being in Group 1 is most likely, I do wonder: What if the additional Group 1 character was different from the one removed from Group 2? Is it possible that Renarin, who we know stays at Urithiru, and who seems to not have been in the original outline, and wad added as a viewpoint after Part 1, could actually be this Group 1 character, although Lift was removed from Group 2?

Lift wasn't "demoted"; per Brandon, he "revise[d] the outline so Lift stayed in the tower." Which is where the rest of Group 1 is. If she was being taken off the Shadesmar expedition, I'd expect her natural place to go would be the Azish front with Dalinar and Jasnah and co., but Brandon intentionally placed her at the tower. There are already some seeds to what passes for character development for Lift in the chapters she's appeared in, much less the portion of her interlude we've seen, and I think Brandon's too attached to the character to write her out of the book entirely once he's planned for her. So I fully expect Lift will continue to be one of the book's minor major characters.

 

But, like we've all been saying, we'll find out for sure in a week. Dust off your bragging hats in case Lift or Szeth didn't make the cut, and come after me then.

 

[Zedseayou]

So honestly I'm confused about who the fifth Group 1 character was meant to be. Szeth was not in the tower, which does leave Navani, Kaladin, Venli and Lift there. Was Teft meant to be number 5?

[IcaroRibeiro]

On 17/11/2020 at 5:49 PM, Zedseayou said:

So honestly I'm confused about who the fifth Group 1 character was meant to be. Szeth was not in the tower, which does leave Navani, Kaladin, Venli and Lift there. Was Teft meant to be number 5?

Group 1 was Venli, Kaladin and Navani as the main POVs

Rlain was the minor POV

And Dabbid was some kind of tertiary POV

 

Lift, as far as I read, was an interlude character and they don't count on characters grouping, same goes for Szeth excluded from group 3

Edited November 19, 2020 by IcaroRibeiro