Deducing RoW character groupings

[Slowfast]

To go slightly on a tangent from the previous discussion, I'd like to ask why they are going to shadesmar? I found that this quote in the chapter 68 epigraph of OB 

"My research into the cognitive reflections of the spren at the tower has been deeply illustrative. Some thought that the Sibling had withdrawn from men by intent- but I find counter to that theory."

The first sentence and second sentence seem quite disconnected but perhaps this is some foreshadowing to the sibling's disappearance being due to something in the cognitive realm occuring, hence why Shallan and Adolin need to go to shadesmar at all. Or I could be completely wrong.

Link to the other epigraphs: https://coppermind.net/wiki/Oathbringer/Epigraphs#Urithiru_Gem_Archive

[+Oltux72]

39 minutes ago, Slowfast said:

The first sentence and second sentence seem quite disconnected but perhaps this is some foreshadowing to the sibling's disappearance being due to something in the cognitive realm occuring, hence why Shallan and Adolin need to go to shadesmar at all. Or I could be completely wrong.

They seem to be standing on solid ground. Urithiru is located on high mountains. It would be in a sea of beads. This would require either the influence on Urithiru to be located elsewhere and conviently on dry land in Shadesmar and them to have located it and getting there and for some reason to cross over alone there, or for them to plan to travel from that point back to Urithiru. If the latter is the case, how?

[Slowfast]

Quote

Paleo

You also said... somebody asked whether there are points in Shadesmar where you could instantly travel across diametrically opposed points on a planet.

Brandon Sanderson

Right, there has to be.

Paleo

Of course, I heard topology last year in university and it's all about mappings and stuff like that and so I was wondering just how continuous - if you know math term - the mapping from like the Physical Realm to the Cognitive Realm is.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not very. You'll notice already elevation is not mapped, you can find points in the books already where someone appears closer to the sea level and things so it's not very... there's a lot of bending going on and it gets worse or more obvious the further the series goes. Not a one to one correlation, not even close.

Paleo

So it's not just that it's very compressed it actually doesn't match some things.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, no. Imagine that things in the Physical Realm are mapping to places in the Cognitive Realm but not, they're not alternate dimensions of one another that are overlapping one to one.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

For one, this WOB shows it's not one to one exactly but other than that Urithiru has to have 10 oathgates platforms with oathgate spren on them in Shadesmar as well as the fact that Urithiru supported so many people in the past it must have some kind of reservoir of water or at least a river the keep the people from dying of dehydration. However, it wouldn't be much of an adventure if they just instantly went to the place the Sibling is located using the location of Urithiru in the cognitive realm. So perhaps they start in a different location and make their way to Urithiru or they go from Urithiru to the location of the Sibling.

Another tangent is the 'study of cognitive reflections of the spren at the tower' could just be referring to a city at the location of Urithiru or something considering it must have had a huge spren population at one point. (Possibly abandoned after they left Urithiru and forgotten after the recreance when many of the inhabitants died and became deadeyes)  

 

Quote

33 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

They seem to be standing on solid ground. Urithiru is located on high mountains. It would be in a sea of beads. This would require either the influence on Urithiru to be located elsewhere and conviently on dry land in Shadesmar and them to have located it and getting there and for some reason to cross over alone there, or for them to plan to travel from that point back to Urithiru. If the latter is the case, how?

 

Edit: sorry I don't really know how the quote feature works

Edited May 19, 2020 by Slowfast

[Pathfinder]

FIrst and foremost, just to be clear I am not ringing in favor of either line of reasoning (Shallan and Adolin in Group 1 or Group 2). What I am commenting on is I think it is too early to conclude that Adolin and Shallan can only be in Group 2 based on the cover because it just shows the two of them. The reasons I state this is because (in list order for fun!)

1. The scenes portrayed on the covers are not pivotal scenes. As in, they are not moments that can provide spoilers nor are the "big" moment of that book.

2. The cover of Way of Kings depicts Dalinar saluting while Kaladin is on the other side of a chasm. The "big" moment of Way of Kings is when Kaladin swore his next oath, jumped across the chasm, saving bridge four, and ultimately saving Dalinar from fighting Eshonai. The salute comes after all the "main" action. It takes a few sentences and then is done. Further and more importantly, you would not know who either person in that scene was unless you read the books, and especially with Kaladin till almost that moment. Nor would you understand the significance. 

3. The cover of Words of Radiance depicts Kaladin after he landed and after Szeth had killed a bunch of people. Now this could be argued to be a "big" moment, but again Kaladin swearing his next oath was the "big" moment. Kaladin catching Dalinar in the nick of time was a big "moment" and his battle with Szeth in the highstorm was a "big" moment. Him landing and getting refueled by bridge 4 with stormlight took up just a few sentences. Also, more crucially, from the scene we did not know where we were, nor what was actually happening. The scene does not spoil Kaladin's leveling up, because Kaladin is crouched. He is not demonstrating any additional abilities that we have not already seen. All we know is that Kaladin and Szeth are about to fight, which occurs multiple times in the span of the novel. 

4. The cover of Oathbringer depicts Jasnah restoring the wall of Thaylenah. As with the prior two covers, it is not the "main" moment. That goes to Dalinar's declaration that Odium would not have his pain and uniting the realms. Further there are other moments arguably "bigger". Jasnah and Renarin realizing Renarin's visions are not fixed. Amaram getting killed. Dalinar trapping the Thrill. Conversely Jasnah's moment restoring the wall is told from another person's PoV, and takes up 2 or 3 sentences. 

5. As shown in the above points, every instance we have seen, the individuals in the cover are not isolated and alone. In Way of Kings, the scene involves not only Kaladin and Dalinar, but also Adolin, and all of Bridge Four. In Words of Radiance, that scene does not only involve Kaladin and Szeth, it involves also Dalinar, Adolin, all of Bridge 4, and etc. In Oathbringer, the scene involves not only Jasnah, but the entire cast showing what everyone is doing to support the war effort. 

 

So all this leads me to conclude that it could just as easily be depicting Shallan and Adolin while off to the side are three other characters, indicating Group 1, or it could be Group 2 or even Group 3. So again, my only argument is, having just two people on the cover does not confirm that they will be in a group that only has two people. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Aminar]

Isn't the person on the other side of the chasm Eshonai on WoK? 

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Isn't the person on the other side of the chasm Eshonai on WoK? 

That was thought to be the case for awhile, but the person in the distance is wearing a shield on their back and is holding a spear. Eshonai was wearing shardplate and had a shardblade in that scene. Yes Eshonai saluted Dalinar and Dalinar saluted her back after the battle, but earlier Dalinar saluted Kaladin and bridge 4. Its page 876

Edited May 19, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Aminar]

21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That was thought to be the case for awhile, but the person in the distance is wearing a shield on their back and is holding a spear. Eshonai was wearing shardplate and had a shardblade in that scene. Yes Eshonai saluted Dalinar and Dalinar saluted her back after the battle, but earlier Dalinar saluted Kaladin and bridge 4. Its page 876

At which point Kal wouldn't have had a Spear and he never had a shield(while fighting) . It still feels like it was intended to be Eshonai. And page numbers help nothing between Hardcovers and the different paperbacks, ebooks, audiobooks etc. Chapter numbers are the only useful reference point. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Aminar

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, Aminar said:

At which point Kal wouldn't have had a Spear and he never had a shield. It still feels like it was intended to be Eshonai. And page numbers help nothing between Hardcovers and the different paperbacks, ebooks, audiobooks etc. Chapter numbers are the only useful reference point. 

The spear and shield are of parshendi bones. Kaladin was using it to draw parshendi fire. 

edit: Its chapter 62. You have to read for a bit before you reach the scene.

Edited May 19, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Aminar]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

The spear and shield are of parshendi bones. Kaladin was using it to draw parshendi fire. 

I guess. It still doesn't fit the best. I question this interpretation of the artists(admittedly just bizarre) choices. 

[Pathfinder]

6 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I guess. It still doesn't fit the best. I question this interpretation of the artists(admittedly just bizarre) choices. 

Eh, to each their own. I am not overly attached to either interpretation so am fine with it going either way. Regardless, both scenes were not the "big" moment which was the main intent of my post. 

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

FIrst and foremost, just to be clear I am not ringing in favor of either line of reasoning (Shallan and Adolin in Group 1 or Group 2). What I am commenting on is I think it is too early to conclude that Adolin and Shallan can only be in Group 2 based on the cover because it just shows the two of them. The reasons I state this is because (in list order for fun!)

1. The scenes portrayed on the covers are not pivotal scenes. As in, they are not moments that can provide spoilers nor are the "big" moment of that book.

2. The cover of Way of Kings depicts Dalinar saluting while Kaladin is on the other side of a chasm. The "big" moment of Way of Kings is when Kaladin swore his next oath, jumped across the chasm, saving bridge four, and ultimately saving Dalinar from fighting Eshonai. The salute comes after all the "main" action. It takes a few sentences and then is done. Further and more importantly, you would not know who either person in that scene was unless you read the books, and especially with Kaladin till almost that moment. Nor would you understand the significance. 

3. The cover of Words of Radiance depicts Kaladin after he landed and after Szeth had killed a bunch of people. Now this could be argued to be a "big" moment, but again Kaladin swearing his next oath was the "big" moment. Kaladin catching Dalinar in the nick of time was a big "moment" and his battle with Szeth in the highstorm was a "big" moment. Him landing and getting refueled by bridge 4 with stormlight took up just a few sentences. Also, more crucially, from the scene we did not know where we were, nor what was actually happening. The scene does not spoil Kaladin's leveling up, because Kaladin is crouched. He is not demonstrating any additional abilities that we have not already seen. All we know is that Kaladin and Szeth are about to fight, which occurs multiple times in the span of the novel. 

4. The cover of Oathbringer depicts Jasnah restoring the wall of Thaylenah. As with the prior two covers, it is not the "main" moment. That goes to Dalinar's declaration that Odium would not have his pain and uniting the realms. Further there are other moments arguably "bigger". Jasnah and Renarin realizing Renarin's visions are not fixed. Amaram getting killed. Dalinar trapping the Thrill. Conversely Jasnah's moment restoring the wall is told from another person's PoV, and takes up 2 or 3 sentences. 

5. As shown in the above points, every instance we have seen, the individuals in the cover are not isolated and alone. In Way of Kings, the scene involves not only Kaladin and Dalinar, but also Adolin, and all of Bridge Four. In Words of Radiance, that scene does not only involve Kaladin and Szeth, it involves also Dalinar, Adolin, all of Bridge 4, and etc. In Oathbringer, the scene involves not only Jasnah, but the entire cast showing what everyone is doing to support the war effort. 

 

So all this leads me to conclude that it could just as easily be depicting Shallan and Adolin while off to the side are three other characters, indicating Group 1, or it could be Group 2 or even Group 3. So again, my only argument is, having just two people on the cover does not confirm that they will be in a group that only has two people. 

You are absolutely correct that we can't be 100% certain about which group they are in. However, the fact that they are together is an indicator toward Group 2. As I explain in my original post, Dalinar is almost certainly in Group 3, which only leaves one PoV spot left in that group. The evidence against them being together in Group 1 is not as strong, but it is still there. Nobody other than the "main eight" characters of this arc will get viewpoints other than just "here and there." Along with additional evidence* for the placements of the other "main eight," not many spots are left in Group 2, so if Shallan and Adolin were both not in it, there would not be enough candidates left. 

*I can point out this evidence if you want, but it's easier for me if you refer to the original post or previous page.

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

You are absolutely correct that we can't be 100% certain about which group they are in. However, the fact that they are together is an indicator toward Group 2. As I explain in my original post, Dalinar is almost certainly in Group 3, which only leaves one PoV spot left in that group. The evidence against them being together in Group 1 is not as strong, but it is still there. Nobody other than the "main eight" characters of this arc will get viewpoints other than just "here and there." Along with additional evidence* for the placements of the other "main eight," not many spots are left in Group 2, so if Shallan and Adolin were both not in it, there would not be enough candidates left. 

*I can point out this evidence if you want, but it's easier for me if you refer to the original post or previous page.

Again, my intent was solely focused on using the cover having Adolin and Shallan as evidence that they had to only be in group 2, because the cover only included the two of them. I am in the middle of something right now, so I cannot at this time, but I will be happy to read your post in depth and in a separate post comment on my overall thoughts. But the point of my post was to indicate we cannot glean much information from the cover and certainly cannot use it to conclude what group they are part of. In my opinion.

 

edit: Oh! Also consider that for most of Way of Kings, Kaladin/Eshonari (depending on interpretation) were separate from Dalinar for 90% of the book, yet they shared the cover. Words of Radiance, Kaladin and Szeth were separate for 90% of the book, yet they shared the cover. Jasnah was off to herself for a good chunk of Oathbringer, yet the solo cover she has is in a scene with the rest of the cast. So for all we know, the scene on the Rhythm of War's cover could be the groups meeting up, and Shallan and Adolin having just seen each other after having not been around each other the entire book. Not saying I am saying that is the case. Just trying to illustrate how difficult it is to take anything in the image as a means of conclusion. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Use the Falchion]

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, I am afraid we have to ask the obvious question. How? The oathgates would refuse the partial transfer. They need a perpendicularity or an Elsecaller (or Willshaper).

I mean, you answer the question in a way. Sanderson did state that all of the viewpoints start in the same place. While I personally think that means Dalinar's highstorm visions, it could be literal, and Venli could send Adolin and Shallan to Shadesmar. Or maybe Jasnah simply sends them there. But as you say in a later response, the couple's transportation to Shadesmar may not be intentional. 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

These two would be reduced to walking in Shadesmar.

Can't Jasnah and Shallan see into Shadesmar? What if they looked around the area in Alethkar in order to see a viable place to go into Shadesmar and just walk/journey from there. They don't HAVE to start in the middle of nowhere. 

As an aside, walking in Shadesmar could be pretty interesting. We can explore it some more and see all of the wonders this new place has!

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Has Dalinar learned to repeat calling up Honor's perpendicularity at will?

He can recharge spheres and he's more than Bondsmiths of the past, so who knows honestly. But we also have to remember that the Ghostbloods are a world-hopping organization. They might have a way to get into Shadesmar others haven't discovered yet, and that's how Shallan and Adolin arrive there. Or maybe the Ghostbloods sneak the two behind enemy lines. Heck, maybe the Ghostbloods are the reason Jasnah can't go with Shallan.

There's also that world-hopping postal service, but I doubt that will come into play. 

 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

And if you go to Shadesmar, Jasnah is likely to be with you. She is the only person to have ever returned by herself.

Which is why I think she's needed on the main mission, because if things go south with that group, they're FAR less likely to make it out than if things go south with Adolin and Shallan, who have survived in Shadesmar previously and are prepared to do so again.  

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

I mean, you answer the question in a way. Sanderson did state that all of the viewpoints start in the same place. While I personally think that means Dalinar's highstorm visions, it could be literal, and Venli could send Adolin and Shallan to Shadesmar.

How do you fit the time line? They locate Venli, whom they know only out of visions of, by unknown means, get to her location and she just agrees to transfer them in an operation she has little to no experience in?

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Or maybe Jasnah simply sends them there. But as you say in a later response, the couple's transportation to Shadesmar may not be intentional. 

The thing is, this happened already. And if you go into Shadesmar without preparation you most likely die. The last time they happened to carry provisions.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

Can't Jasnah and Shallan see into Shadesmar? What if they looked around the area in Alethkar in order to see a viable place to go into Shadesmar and just walk/journey from there. They don't HAVE to start in the middle of nowhere.

Well, there is the inconvinient issue of land and water being inverted. Sure you can start out with a boat. But that presupposes preparation.

1 hour ago, Use the Falchion said:

As an aside, walking in Shadesmar could be pretty interesting. We can explore it some more and see all of the wonders this new place has!

Of course. Please note that I never opposed a voyage to Shadesmar being real. I just said that attributing this to group#2 makes no sense.

 

[Pathfinder]

HUGE DISCLAIMER PLEASE READ ENTIRE POST ESPECIALLY THE END

 

Just had a crazy idea that I had to write down while fresh in my brain, then later I will respond in full to chickenliberty.

What if Adolin dies early to mid of Rhythm of War? What if Shallan gets incredibly hurt by his death, and thereby makes an illusory Adolin so she would not have to come to terms with his death? She can pretend he is still there. The scene on the cover is her and illusion Adolin. That her fifth and final oath, that she will confront in book five, is that Adolin is dead and gone, and she needs to move on! How is that for an insane twist?

 

HUGE DISCLAIMER PORTION OF THE POST. PLEASE READ IN ITS ENTIRETY

 

1. This is just a "wow random idea I had" post. It is not a theory to be taken seriously

2. The likelihood of this idea, stands equal in my head as my other ideas. Ideas like that Navani would become a dustrbringer since an engineer would like to see the "inside of things" despite Brandon having said we have not seen a PoV of a dustbringer as of Words of Radiance, and we had already gotten a Navani PoV. Or that Malata is actually on team good guy, but is a solo spy on the Diagram, and everyone just thinks the dustbringers are bad. These are total tinfoil theories. I just like the way they sound or the twists they provide

3. This idea does not mean I want Adolin to die

4. This idea does not mean I do not like Adolin

5. This idea has nothing to do with the number of PoV's Adolin has had in the past or will have in the future

6. This idea has nothing to do with whether I do or do not consider Adolin an important character

 

It was just an idea that came to me that I thought would be an insane twist so thought to share it. Hopefully that disclaimer covers everything. Whew!

Edited May 19, 2020 by Pathfinder

[agrabes]

I really like Karger's idea as a cool possible plot, but I think as we know it's not guaranteed to happen.  A lot of the conversation in this thread has been about the idea of a mission to try to convince spren to bond with humans again.  While that definitely could happen, there's no guarantee it will.

I do agree with Pathfinder that just because Adolin and Shallan are shown in Shadesmar doesn't mean their plot for the book is centered on the idea of going to Shadesmar.  In other books the cover has been a cool, iconic scene that isn't too spoilery.  If anything, I think this cover may indicate that the major plot for Adolin and Shallan is not a mission to Shadesmar just like WoK's cover was not an indication that Dalinar's major plot was to stare at people across chasms, etc.  

My suggestion is a little different: Shallan is trying to complete her mission from the Ghostbloods to recruit Sja-anat alongside her mission from the Radiants which will likely be to try to get Urithiru up and running again.  This mission will take her to Shadesmar for a short time - maybe she thinks she can find or talk to Sja-anat or other spren there.  Or maybe she thinks she can find clues there.  She brings Adolin along because he'll be useful and he's her husband so she just wants him around.  What she finds will be critical to the plot - but it's not shown on the cover.

I think it's possible Adolin could be a POV character, or he might not.  The other POV character could be Jasnah or someone else.  I also think that it's not a huge stretch to assume that another Elsecaller has come to Urithiru and is with Shallan to help her go back and forth to Shadesmar - or Navani has invented a fabrial to let her do it by studying Jasnah.  Or - crazy idea here - what if the other POV character with Shallan is actually Venli??  Seems super unlikely in some ways (which is why I'm calling it a crazy thought) but we know Venli will become a Willshaper and have the capability of the Transportation surge.  What if Venli is assigned to get Sja-anat to come back fully to the side of Odium and she runs into Shallan during that mission early in the book?  We've all assumed that it would be Kaladin who helps bring the Parsh over to the side of the Radiants because of his ties with them, but he has no ties specifically to Venli.  Shallan with Venli would make total sense in a lot of ways - Shallan struggles with multiple identities and Venli also struggles with that in certain ways - she wants to be true to herself and her people, but doesn't agree with her people's choice to submit to Odium and the Fused.  This would also explain why Venli's flashbacks wouldn't start until Part 3.  Maybe she doesn't meet Shallan until then, or doesn't start cooperating until then.

[Karger]

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Hence sending two people and only two people is extremely problematic. You'd have to argue for convoluted circumstances that allow only two people, those two people in particular and still make this mission worthwhile and sensible. In fact why do they not send an army? Logistics. Transport capacity and supplies are limited. But then you send the people who give most use per capita. All of them you can possibly send, including the radiants of the highest oaths. Kaladin, Jasnah, Shallan. And your top project manager and diplomate: Navani.

I never said two people.  I said two PoVs.  I actually think, and said, that they will have a full complement of minor characters along.  We also don't know what capacity is limited as.  If they take my suggestion and duplicate the spren methods of transportation you will actually need a full compliment of "NPCs" to manage things.  There are also plenty of reasons that a military commander might not send as many people as possible.  Sacrificing safety for speed or stealth for example.

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

You do not send expendable people. You accept that if this mission ends in a disaster, the war is lost. So you put as many resources into it as you can.

Thing is Odium will probably have many situations like this running simultaneously.  This inures Dalinar probably can't go all in on any one of them.

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The best scholars they have are Jasnah and Navani. And no, there is a point you send essential people.

Are they?  They are both impressive of course but Navani is more of a project manager then a full scholar herself(I am not saying that is a bad thing or that she is incapable it is just a different kind of expertise).  As to Jasnah.  Yeah she is impressive but political leaders can't run around on there own in the middle of nowhere. 

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. And that is the place military thinking diverges. If you are in that situation, you must pick among those missions. You give priority to a subset and completely abandon the others. The resulting losses must be written off, you consolidate your forces and withdraw. And you realize that you are at a disadvantage and losing. You need to risk everything.

My point was that he can't pick.  Odium is going to put him in a position where loosing any of the vital missions looses him the war.

15 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but there is no point in running anything at less than 100%.

Yes there is efficiency.  If you can get things working at 95% using considerably less valuable personal that would be more useful elsewhere you do it.

7 hours ago, agrabes said:

not a mission to Shadesmar just like WoK's cover was not an indication that Dalinar's major plot was to stare at people across chasms, etc.  

it kind of was.

7 hours ago, agrabes said:

My suggestion is a little different: Shallan is trying to complete her mission from the Ghostbloods to recruit Sja-anat alongside her mission from the Radiants which will likely be to try to get Urithiru up and running again.  This mission will take her to Shadesmar for a short time - maybe she thinks she can find or talk to Sja-anat or other spren there.  Or maybe she thinks she can find clues there.  She brings Adolin along because he'll be useful and he's her husband so she just wants him around.  What she finds will be critical to the plot - but it's not shown on the cover

That is completely plausible.

7 hours ago, agrabes said:

(which is why I'm calling it a crazy thought) but we know Venli will become a Willshaper and have the capability of the Transportation surge

Seems a lot less plausible just timeline wise.  Either way these people could belong to any of the groups.

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, there is the inconvinient issue of land and water being inverted. Sure you can start out with a boat. But that presupposes preparation.

Adolin has a sword.  This is probably not his shardblade as it is in shadesmar.

Edited May 20, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

@ChickenLiberty

I have just started going through all your references, and will need time, but while it is on my mind, I did have a comment regarding one of them. This WoB:

 

JoyBlu's Friend

I want to ask Brandon if he plans to write how Adolin feels next to Shallan, as we never get Adolin's viewpoint when it comes to their relationship. I thought it was missed.

Brandon Sanderson

Tell them that I do plan to do some of that.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)    

 

If you read this WoB coupled with the other WoBs from the same individual, I do not believe the WoB means that Adolin will literally be standing next to Shallan when we learn how he feels about Shallan. The individual asked on numerous occasions how Adolin feels regarding being surrounded by radiants, being married to a radiant and feeling inadequate when compared to them, or his father. So I take "next to" as in regards to his stature with her, and his relation with her. Not it being confirmed he has to be standing right next to her when we get his feelings. But that is my take on it. I will go fully into the rest probably by the end of tomorrow. 

Edited May 20, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Chiberty]

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

@ChickenLiberty

I have just started going through all your references, and will need time, but while it is on my mind, I did have a comment regarding one of them. This WoB:

 

JoyBlu's Friend

I want to ask Brandon if he plans to write how Adolin feels next to Shallan, as we never get Adolin's viewpoint when it comes to their relationship. I thought it was missed.

Brandon Sanderson

Tell them that I do plan to do some of that.

Orem Signing (March 16, 2019)    

 

If you read this WoB coupled with the other WoBs from the same individual, I do not believe the WoB means that Adolin will literally be standing next to Shallan when we learn how he feels about Shallan. The individual asked on numerous occasions how Adolin feels regarding being surrounded by radiants, being married to a radiant and feeling inadequate when compared to them, or his father. So I take "next to" as in regards to his stature with her, and his relation with her. Not it being confirmed he has to be standing right next to her when we get his feelings. But that is my take on it. I will go fully into the rest probably by the end of tomorrow. 

That is a valid point, although my interpretation of it is now mostly redundant because of the cover art that shows Adolin literally standing next to Shallan. 

[Use the Falchion]

On 5/20/2020 at 1:00 AM, Oltux72 said:

They locate Venli, whom they know only out of visions of, by unknown means, get to her location and she just agrees to transfer them in an operation she has little to no experience in?

They locate someone who Dalinar is clearly connected to and has tried to help before, but she's now ready to receive that offer if it still stands; she tells them her location but prefers a separate meeting place, and things go south, making this (arms) race one to remember. 

On 5/20/2020 at 1:00 AM, Oltux72 said:

The thing is, this happened already. And if you go into Shadesmar without preparation you most likely die. The last time they happened to carry provisions.

Sorry I skipped over the assumption that before Jasnah "just sends them," they prepare because I thought that was built in. Let me rephrase. They prepare, Jasnah sends them into Shadesmar at a pre-scouted location (since both Jasnah AND Shallan can see into Shadesmar, it wouldn't be impossible, only increasingly challenging). And from there the two are on their way. 

On 5/20/2020 at 1:00 AM, Oltux72 said:

But that presupposes preparation.

Which I am presupposing. As we saw in the Kholinar mission, preparation doesn't mean a perfect mission.

On 5/20/2020 at 1:00 AM, Oltux72 said:

I just said that attributing this to group#2 makes no sense.

And that's fair for you. It makes perfect sense to me, but we can agree to disagree about it. 

 

After engaging someone on Reddit, I thought of another way to group most of the characters that may be interesting. I'm not subscribing to this grouping for this book, but I do think it would be fascinating to see. 

Group One: Jasnah, Venli, Navani, Shallan, and Adolin on a mission to Shadesmar. This could allow for all of the Shadesmar things (Urithiru, Spren allies, Sja-Anat, Maya, etc) to happen with one group. And since most of the group has had some meaningful interaction with Shadesmar, it wouldn't come out of nowhere. This makes Shadesmar sort of "quest-y," and it doesn't fix the problems associated with Shadesmar in general, but it's a possibility. 

Group Two: Kaladin and Rlain on a mission to save the rest of Rlain's people. I don't really have more to add here, since this raises more questions of how Rlain and Kaladin have been in contact (assuming they've been in contact) and/or how they can find each other. To me, it makes sense for Rlain to be the In-Between for Venli and Team Good Guys, but hey, I'm open to speculation.

Group Three: Still Dalinar and Szeth. 

[Chiberty]

Quote

Anonymous: You would be willing to tell me in which arc to expect Adolin? Is he one the two characters who aren't getting more than one or two viewpoints?

Sanderson: Adolin is not one of the characters who will get one or two viewpoints. He will have a decent chunk in this book. Not as much as you personally would like, I bet--but certainly more than one or two viewpoints.

This WoB was recently sent to me by someone who wishes to remain anonymous.

One thing that makes this very interesting is that it confirms that Adolin will be one of the PoV characters, where before, it had only been strongly suggested. Beyond that, this WoB provides additional evidence that Adolin is not one of the minor viewpoints in Group 1, lending further credence to the idea that he is in Group 2. I will also suggest that Brandon's claim that Adolin will only get a "decent chunk," and not as much as the questioner might like also goes against Brandon's description of the major PoVs in Group 1, separating him more firmly from that group, although that is less certain.

Edited May 21, 2020 by ChickenLiberty

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

This WoB was recently sent to me by someone who wishes to remain anonymous.

One thing that makes this very interesting is that it confirms that Adolin will be one of the PoV characters, where before, it had only been strongly suggested. Beyond that, this WoB provides additional evidence that Adolin is not one of the minor viewpoints in Group 1, lending further credence to the idea that he is in Group 2. I will also suggest that Brandon's claim that Adolin will only get a "decent chuck," and not as much as the questioner might like also goes against Brandon's description of the major PoVs in Group 1, separating him more firmly from that group, although that is less certain.

While I agree it is strong evidence it is not proof.  Adolin could get the occasional PoV that is more then average but not be considered a major part of any grouping.

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

While I agree it is strong evidence it is not proof.  Adolin could get the occasional PoV that is more then average but not be considered a major part of any grouping.

I would agree, but the way Brandon talked about the groups makes it incredibly unlikely that he is not part of the group format. 

Quote

This book, as I've said before, starts with all the characters together--then splits into three groups of viewpoints. The first group is the largest, and the most involved, with five viewpoints characters. Two of these, however, will have only a few viewpoints (and one might just appear in other viewpoints, save for an interlude.) Really, this is the story of three characters, and forms the core arc of the book.

The second viewpoint cluster, which is the one I've now finished, follows two characters on a very involved--but more narrowly focused--plot. The final cluster takes two remaining viewpoint characters, and touches lightly upon what they are doing, without going into quite as much depth as the other two groups.

For Brandon to mention all 5 viewpoint characters in Group 1, even though one of them might just get an interlude, only to not include somebody who will "certainly" get more than 2 viewpoints (with "decent chunk" up for interpretation), would not make much sense at all. While nothing is 100%, and Adolin's exact placement is not directly proven by that WoB, to suggest that he might not even be part of any grouping (or the interlude through-line)--even given that evidence--requires such a big stretch of the information we have, that although it is technically valid, it is not very pertinent.

Edited May 21, 2020 by ChickenLiberty

[agrabes]

20 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

I would agree, but the way Brandon talked about the groups makes it incredibly unlikely that he is not part of the group format. 

For Brandon to mention all 5 viewpoint characters in Group 1, even though one of them might just get an interlude, only to not include somebody who will "certainly" get more than 2 viewpoints (with "decent chunk" up for interpretation), would not make much sense at all. While nothing is 100%, and Adolin's exact placement is not directly proven by that WoB, to suggest that he might not even be part of any grouping (or the interlude through-line)--even given that evidence--requires such a big stretch of the information we have, that although it is technically valid, it is not very pertinent.

Something has been in the back of my mind for a while on Adolin's involvement and I think I've finally been able to put it on a little more solid ground.

If you look back at the equivalent outline for OB and cross reference it to who appears in what sections in the final book, Adolin doesn't seem to have been counted on the list of primary, secondary, or tertiary characters (Primary - Dalinar, Secondary - Kaladin, Shallan, Tertiary - Moash, Navani, Venli, Szeth).  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182-stormlight-three-update-5/.  Obviously, Sanderson's mind can change about who counts as a character worthy of "counting" in the list of POVs.  But in OB, he lists 7 POV characters in his outline  when the total actual characters with more than one POV was 15. In every book, Adolin has had 4th place in POVs but is also not counted at least for OB as being even a tertiary character.  It seems like Sanderson has his own system of who is considered an important POV not necessary based on number of POV sections in a book or word count from each character's view.

So, I think it's possible and probably even likely that Adolin is not being counted in Sanderson's chart for RoW.  I think it's also likely that he has more POVs than several of the characters who are counted in the chart.

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, agrabes said:

Something has been in the back of my mind for a while on Adolin's involvement and I think I've finally been able to put it on a little more solid ground.

If you look back at the equivalent outline for OB and cross reference it to who appears in what sections in the final book, Adolin doesn't seem to have been counted on the list of primary, secondary, or tertiary characters (Primary - Dalinar, Secondary - Kaladin, Shallan, Tertiary - Moash, Navani, Venli, Szeth).  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/182-stormlight-three-update-5/.  Obviously, Sanderson's mind can change about who counts as a character worthy of "counting" in the list of POVs.  But in OB, he lists 7 POV characters in his outline  when the total actual characters with more than one POV was 15. In every book, Adolin has had 4th place in POVs but is also not counted at least for OB as being even a tertiary character.  It seems like Sanderson has his own system of who is considered an important POV not necessary based on number of POV sections in a book or word count from each character's view.

So, I think it's possible and probably even likely that Adolin is not being counted in Sanderson's chart for RoW.  I think it's also likely that he has more POVs than several of the characters who are counted in the chart.

If you look at which characters line up most with the sections on the chart, you get:

- Dalinar, Shallan, and Kaladin as primary and secondary characters

- Adolin, Szeth, Jasnah, and Navani as tertiary characters, which he even confirms:

Spoiler

Brandon Sanderson

In book one, a main character was absent from several parts. (Dalinar and Shallan alternated.) Same with Words of Radiance, where Dalinar skipped two parts, I believe.

Note that this is an absence of viewpoints from the character, not necessarily an absence of the character entirely.

The main characters of the first part of the Stormlight are Shallan, Kaladin, and Dalinar. Two more flashback character (Eshonai and Szeth) can be considered important characters without as many viewpoints, though in the above outline, I'd have listed them as tertiary characters in terms of number of viewpoints.

The actual tertiary characters are Jasnah, Adolin, Navani, and a few that I can't mention as it will be spoilers. These get significant screen time, but only have viewpoints here and there in the first five books. Jasnah, as I've said, grows more important in the back five. Others do as well.

Stormlight Three Update #5 (Nov. 18, 2016)

 

- Venli and Bridge 4 (including Moash) as the two novelettes

- Taravangian, Lift, Ash, Renarin, and the various interlude characters as part of the short story collection, which works because the "short story collection" also extends beyond the interludes and into part 5

A couple things were changed (like how Adolin actually did have one PoV in Part 3), but all of the characters are included in it. The ones lumped together in the short story collection are those that were only part of the interludes or the "sanderlanche."

For Adolin to be part of the "short story collection," he would need to have a similar short role. If his viewpoints appeared in a similar "sanderlanche" fashion, it wouldn't make sense for Sanderson to claim that he gets a "decent chunk" of the book. In OB, as I showed, the only characters that were not mentioned more directly in the outline were those in the short story collection, the most significant of which was Taravangian, who only took up a third of the viewpoint space as Jasnah, the least significant tertiary character. In no way did any of those characters that were lumped into the "short story collection" get a decent chunk of the book.

Oathbringer statistical analysis for reference

Edited May 21, 2020 by ChickenLiberty