StanLemon

Lerasium Mistborn

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I've just been thinking lately, just how strong are Lerasium Mistborn? The reason I ask is apparently the Mistborn of old were able to break through and control Kandra which "modern" Mistborn needed Duralumin to do. This implies a huge amount of power in comparison. Secondly we have Elend overpower an Inquisitor in a Steelpushing contest. Inquisitors are commonly viewed as being stronger than Mistborn.

All this makes me think that Elend didn't even come close to realizing the full power he possessed and that a Lerasium Mistborn's baseline power at least approaches the levels that Duralumin grants a modern Allomancer

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Probably a lot stronger than a modern Mistborn burning Duralumin. Just imagine how much damage a Lerasium Mistborn can do with Duralumin. 

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2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

All this makes me think that Elend didn't even come close to realizing the full power he possessed and that a Lerasium Mistborn's baseline power at least approaches the levels that Duralumin grants a modern Allomancer

In raw power I say about twice as powerful.  Because of the inquisitor vs Elend scene. 

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We have a direct comparison in the third book. Compare the number of Koloss Vin could control versus the number of Koloss Elend could control, while keeping in mind that Vin was extraordinarily skilled with Allomancy than most Mistborn.

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19 hours ago, aneonfoxtribute said:

Probably a lot stronger than a modern Mistborn burning Duralumin. Just imagine how much damage a Lerasium Mistborn can do with Duralumin. 

Well at the end of Hero of Ages, Elend burns duralumin and then flares all his remaining atium...

And he saw it. He saw it ALL.

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17 minutes ago, robardin said:

Well at the end of Hero of Ages, Elend burns duralumin and then flares all his remaining atium...

And he saw it. He saw it ALL.

Well, I knew that happened, but I think Duralumin does the same regardless, just for longer. And since Elend didn't need to see that much, I think anyone could have done that

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If I remember there was a WoB that said a Lerasium Mistborn with duralumin could have the same soothing effect as the Lord Ruler had. We know that the Lord Ruler could push on metal even if it is inside someone and the metal is Invested (Vin was burning her metals when he pushed on them). Could a Lerasium Mistborn do the same if he was also burning Duralumin. If so a Lerasium Mistborn is insanely powerful. If they learnt the trick the Inquisitors could do in viewing the world through the steel/iron lines they could probably push/pull non metallic objects when burning Duralumin as well. 

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Quote

Chaos (paraphrased)

I continued to ask about the Lord Ruler and his Allomantic strength.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There's an upper bound to the amount of power you can get from being a savant. Brandon said that, obviously, the Lord Ruler wasn't using duralumin and Elend could only get that powerful in Soothing using duralumin. He implied that there was a way to Compound to enhance Allomancy.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

We know, however, that in addition to being stronger than a lerasium-mistborn as a result of his time in the Well, the Lord Ruler could also compound nicrosil, burn duralumin, was essentially a savant in every metal, and any other tricks he needed to. I would say 2x stronger than a lerasium mistborn is at best a lower baseline. 

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At least a good chunk of TLR's power came from him being even more Connected to Preservation than a Lerasium Mistborn. His base power might have been as far above a Lerasium Mistborn as they are from a Vin era Mistborn

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Elend in HOA was relatively inexperienced (he'd had a year by the beginning of the book, but he was busy trying to hold an empire together) - though this might be somewhat exaggerated as we see this mentioned in Vin's POV, and she's an incredible "natural talent" at Allomancy.

But I think Elend was genuinely maxed-out on "raw power" - it's just that we really don't see enough comparisons to have a good idea what that means. He's got more raw power (though less skill) than Vin, and Vin is clearly stronger than "normal" Allomancers of her era (see the training scene with Ham in WoA where Vin does a pewter-jump, etc.) - probably due to absorbing small bits of mist early on, according to Sazed's epilogue epigraph in HOA.

Elend definitely doesn't seem to be operating on "Bands of Mourning" / Vin burning mists level

On 3/30/2020 at 4:34 PM, StanLemon said:

I've just been thinking lately, just how strong are Lerasium Mistborn? The reason I ask is apparently the Mistborn of old were able to break through and control Kandra which "modern" Mistborn needed Duralumin to do. This implies a huge amount of power in comparison.

Not necessarily. Control seems to be a "threshold" thing; in WoA Vin gets no effect until she breaks through and gets total control. So a Lerasium Mistborn is above that threshold without Duralumin, while a modern one isn't. But that threshold could be only like 10% above where Vin is without Duralumin.

Quote

Secondly we have Elend overpower an Inquisitor in a Steelpushing contest. Inquisitors are commonly viewed as being stronger than Mistborn.

Well... depends on the Inquisitor. Your average Inquisitor, who was a Misting beforehand, is going to be slightly weaker than a Mistborn (due to hemalurgic decay) in every metal except their original Misting ability - but most of them have feruchemical gold so people think they are basically immortal. Only a former-Mistborn Inquisitor, or a multi-spiked one like Marsh in HOA, is generally stronger than a natural Mistborn.

Quote

All this makes me think that Elend didn't even come close to realizing the full power he possessed and that a Lerasium Mistborn's baseline power at least approaches the levels that Duralumin grants a modern Allomancer

I really doubt it. Duralumin burns minutes' worth of metal in maybe a second or two (Vin hears a couple of heartbeats IIRC) so that's probably more like a 100x increase in power. I agree with @Karger that Lerasium vs Normal is probably more like 2x, equivalent to being spiked plus natural ability (or a bit better due to the lack of Hemalurgic Decay).

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1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Elend in HOA was relatively inexperienced (he'd had a year by the beginning of the book, but he was busy trying to hold an empire together) - though this might be somewhat exaggerated as we see this mentioned in Vin's POV, and she's an incredible "natural talent" at Allomancy.

But I think Elend was genuinely maxed-out on "raw power" - it's just that we really don't see enough comparisons to have a good idea what that means. He's got more raw power (though less skill) than Vin, and Vin is clearly stronger than "normal" Allomancers of her era (see the training scene with Ham in WoA where Vin does a pewter-jump, etc.) - probably due to absorbing small bits of mist early on, according to Sazed's epilogue epigraph in HOA.

Elend definitely doesn't seem to be operating on "Bands of Mourning" / Vin burning mists level

I never implied that level of strength. Those are Lord Ruler levels of power

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Not necessarily. Control seems to be a "threshold" thing; in WoA Vin gets no effect until she breaks through and gets total control. So a Lerasium Mistborn is above that threshold without Duralumin, while a modern one isn't. But that threshold could be only like 10% above where Vin is without Duralumin.

While their is definitely a threshold based on the descriptions we get from Vin's perspective, that threshold must be must be much higher than you think. Her first attempt to Sooth TenSoon failed completely, she didn't even notice resistance until she burned Duralumin and all that did was hurt TenSoon. When she took control of him later in her fight with Zane she still described it as a resistance that she had to do one massive Push of Duralumin and Brass to break through. As Duralumin was kept secret yet it was known that ancient Mistborn could control Kandra, so that implies a significant amount of greater power if it was difficult for Vin to do with Duralumin.

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

Well... depends on the Inquisitor. Your average Inquisitor, who was a Misting beforehand, is going to be slightly weaker than a Mistborn (due to hemalurgic decay) in every metal except their original Misting ability - but most of them have feruchemical gold so people think they are basically immortal. Only a former-Mistborn Inquisitor, or a multi-spiked one like Marsh in HOA, is generally stronger than a natural Mistborn.

Except the books imply that this is not the case. Inquisitors completely overwhelmed Kelsier and Vin in TFE when they raided the palace, Kelsier even described it as he was lucky that he got away after two of them broke off to follow Vin. Even later Kesier had great difficulty with his fight against Bendal, and while it is entirely possible that Bendal was a Mistborn before he became an Inquisitor there is no actual evidence of that. So the default assumption would be he was an average Inquisitor. There is more to Inquisitors than just gaining powers from Spikes. Throughout the entirety of Era 1, Inquisitors are viewed as a real threat. This is the case even before we find out they are getting new Feruchemical powers. At the beginning of HoA, Vin and Elend were still cautious against fighting a single Inquisitor despite both of them being stronger than the average Mistborn, knowing the Inquisitor's weakness, having killed Inquisitors before, and not knowing about them having Feruchemy which seems ridiculous if the average Inquisitor was weaker than the average Mistborn

1 hour ago, cometaryorbit said:

I really doubt it. Duralumin burns minutes' worth of metal in maybe a second or two (Vin hears a couple of heartbeats IIRC) so that's probably more like a 100x increase in power. I agree with @Karger that Lerasium vs Normal is probably more like 2x, equivalent to being spiked plus natural ability (or a bit better due to the lack of Hemalurgic Decay).

As I said with the Brass example, Lerasium Mistborn are described as being able to do something that was difficult for Vin with Duralumin. Also, while he was undoubtedly stronger than a Lerasium Mistborn because of his greater Connection to Preservation. The Lord Ruler was able to Soothe tens of thousands of people, which flabbergasted Breeze (the best Soother we know) who said at his best he could only do a couple hundred. A Lerasium Mistborn must be somewhere in between those two. Elend was able to take control of many thousands of them with a single Duralumin fueled Soothing

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1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

Except the books imply that this is not the case. Inquisitors completely overwhelmed Kelsier and Vin in TFE when they raided the palace, Kelsier even described it as he was lucky that he got away after two of them broke off to follow Vin. Even later Kesier had great difficulty with his fight against Bendal, and while it is entirely possible that Bendal was a Mistborn before he became an Inquisitor there is no actual evidence of that. So the default assumption would be he was an average Inquisitor. There is more to Inquisitors than just gaining powers from Spikes. Throughout the entirety of Era 1, Inquisitors are viewed as a real threat. This is the case even before we find out they are getting new Feruchemical powers. At the beginning of HoA, Vin and Elend were still cautious against fighting a single Inquisitor despite both of them being stronger than the average Mistborn, knowing the Inquisitor's weakness, having killed Inquisitors before, and not knowing about them having Feruchemy which seems ridiculous if the average Inquisitor was weaker than the average Mistborn

They were allomantically weaker. As in their allomantic powers were slightly weaker than the average Mistborn. They had Feruchemical pewter and gold, and possibly steel, which is why they are considered so dangerous.

 

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11 minutes ago, Nameless said:

They were allomantically weaker. As in their allomantic powers were slightly weaker than the average Mistborn. They had Feruchemical pewter and gold, and possibly steel, which is why they are considered so dangerous.

 

Few had Feruchemy until Ruin took control of them. In the first book when they raided Kredik Shaw, one Inquisitor was casually able to physically overpower Kelsier while paying attention to Vin, and then just a little later another Inquisitor easily overpowers her flared Pewter strength pulling her weapon from her grasp causing her to think "He's so strong" and that the force of his Ironpulls were stronger than Kelsier's had ever been. Are you suggesting that all of the Inquisitors in that situation were Mistborn? That whole scene shows that they were Allomantically powerful.

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I think many Inquisitors had doubled steel, iron, or pewter-granting spikes, based on the above evidence. 

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7 minutes ago, 18th Shard said:

I think many Inquisitors had doubled steel, iron, or pewter-granting spikes, based on the above evidence. 

Except HoA contradicts this

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The thing is, Inquisitors being listed as constructs rather than just beneficiaries on Hemalurgy tells us there is more to being an Inquisitor than just getting Spikes

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2 hours ago, StanLemon said:

As I said with the Brass example, Lerasium Mistborn are described as being able to do something that was difficult for Vin with Duralumin. Also, while he was undoubtedly stronger than a Lerasium Mistborn because of his greater Connection to Preservation. The Lord Ruler was able to Soothe tens of thousands of people, which flabbergasted Breeze (the best Soother we know) who said at his best he could only do a couple hundred. A Lerasium Mistborn must be somewhere in between those two. Elend was able to take control of many thousands of them with a single Duralumin fueled Soothing

I don't think that the number of people being soothed is a good measure for relative strength. If you think of strength with soothing as how far a soother can reach, the numbers make more sense. If a normal Misting like Breeze can soothe everyone within 100 feet of him, and Rashek can do everyone one within 200 feet, then Rashek can cover almost four times as much area. At 300 feet, its nine times as much area. As you can see, the potential number of people does not scale linearly with the distance at which a soother can sooth.

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Just for imperial reasons, I would expect that the Lord Ruler would never have allowed the creation of a Mistborn that could overpower him. So I would guess that a Lerasium Mistborn with Duralumin would still be weaker than TLR. On the other hand, given the strengths we've seen... well, not MUCH weaker than that limit, if at all.

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15 hours ago, StanLemon said:

Few had Feruchemy until Ruin took control of them. In the first book when they raided Kredik Shaw, one Inquisitor was casually able to physically overpower Kelsier while paying attention to Vin, and then just a little later another Inquisitor easily overpowers her flared Pewter strength pulling her weapon from her grasp causing her to think "He's so strong" and that the force of his Ironpulls were stronger than Kelsier's had ever been. Are you suggesting that all of the Inquisitors in that situation were Mistborn? That whole scene shows that they were Allomantically powerful.

I always attributed that to F-pewter. It's been a while since I read TFE, but I don't remember the ironpulls being stronger.

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Posted (edited)

2 hours ago, Nameless said:

I always attributed that to F-pewter. It's been a while since I read TFE, but I don't remember the ironpulls being stronger.

Here is the quote showing powerful Ironpulling. Also, there is no mention of the Inquisitor's muscles growing so it likely wasn't F-Pewter

Quote

Vin turned, Pulling a candelabrum into her hands, remembering Kelsier's trick from before. The Inquisitor stepped into the room, then raised an almost amused hand,ripping the candelabra from her hands in an easy Allomantic Pull.

He's so strong! Vin thought with horror. He was probably steadying himself by Pulling against the lantern brackets behind. However, the force of his Ironpulls was far more powerful than Kelsier's had ever been.

Edited by StanLemon
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