Confused about Bridge 4's Honorblade

[jammy627]

I could be getting confused between the content in the books, but there's something about the Honorblade that showed up with Taln. I made an account just to ask this question so if this was posted the wrong way/in the wrong place, someone let me know. Also, I guess I should say spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't finished reading.

1) Taln shows up at the end of The Way of Kings with his Honorblade. Shortly afterwards, he's brought to the Shattered Plains.

2) Dalinar bonds Taln's blade and displays it for the first time when confronting Amaram about his lies concerning Kaladin's past.

3) Dalinar bonds the Stormfather and releases his Shardblade when he hears its screams. Here's my first question: Why is it a Shardblade and not the Honorblade? I thought it was Taln's blade.

4) Later, Dalinar is seen with an Honorblade he's hidden in the sewers. This is later given to Bridge 4 to practice with when Kaladin is not around.

5) The Honorblade is stolen by a Parshendi in smokeform, with Teft's coat. Here's my second question: Was this Taln's Honorblade or Szeth's former Honorblade?

If my memory is off about anything, please feel free to correct me. I finished reading Oathbringer a while ago and I didn't refer back to its pages when I wrote this post. If you know the answers, I'd greatly appreciate answers. It's been bugging me for a year.

Edited March 26, 2020 by jammy627

[+Invocation]

13 minutes ago, jammy627 said:

Why is it a Shardblade and not the Honorblade? I thought it was Taln's blade.

Different Blade. They got swapped en route to the Plains. Here's a WOB:

Quote

Questioner

Why didn't Dalinar get the powers of a Stoneward when he bonded Taln's [Honorblade]?

Brandon Sanderson

Some readers have already figured this out, so I don't think I'm engaging in too large a spoiler to dig into this one here.

There are several oddities going on here. The most important one relevant to this question is the Blade in question. If you compare the descriptions of the sword described in the epilogue of The Way of Kings to the one that traveled with the madman (allegedly Taln, the Herald) to the Shattered Plains, you'll find they are different.

The one that the characters obtained in Words of Radiance is NOT an Honorblade. It's an ordinary Shardblade (as ordinary as one of those can be called.) I'm not going to say specifically what happened to the Blade Taln arrived with at Kholinar, but I will say that it IS a different weapon from the one in Words of Radiance.

The other issue here is the somewhat lesser question of whether this character is actually Taln, the Herald, or not. Some characters in-world don't believe that it is, though his viewpoint in Words of Radiance strongly implies otherwise. This isn't specifically relevant to the conversation for reasons I'll talk about below--but it is tangentially related. Because in the cosmere, Intent is important to many of the types of magic. It's theoretically possible to hold an Honorblade and not realize what its powers are, and therefore be unable to access them.

As an aside, this character was actually the primary protagonist of the version of The Way of Kings I wrote in 2002. A man who woke up, with lingering memories of madness, and claimed to be a Herald when nobody believed him--as he couldn't manifest any powers, seemed to have lost his sword, and lore said the Heralds weren't coming back anyway.

When I wrote the new version of The Way of Kings in 2009 or so, one goal was to focus the storyline. I'd included so many characters in the 2002 version that none of them progressed very far in their arcs, creating a strong setting and interesting characters--but a bad book. During the new version, I decided that this character would be moved to the later books, and I'd explore him there.

In the 2002 version, the text was very dodgy on whether or not Taln was a Herald. Confronting the fact that he might be crazy was a major arc and theme of the book--however, as I've worked on the new version, I've realized that it would be dangerous to be too vague on this. Stringing people along with the question for a book or two is one thing, waiting until book six or eight to do a character's arc, and leaving the question of whether they're a Herald or not all that time, seemed unfair.

So the text is going to be making manifest fairly quickly who this person is. You'll have confirmations long before we dig into his viewpoint in the later books.

So, a recap:

1) The swords WERE swapped somehow.

2) Someone could hold an Honorblade and not realize they had access to powers.

3) This character may or may not actually be a Herald--but the text is going to make the answer clear, and I'm not trying to trick you.

FAQFriday 2017 (May 19, 2017)

13 minutes ago, jammy627 said:

5) The Honorblade is stolen by a Parshendi in smokeform, with Teft's coat. Here's my second question: Was this Taln's Honorblade or Szeth's former Honorblade?

That was Jezrien's Blade that Szeth held and Kaladin took from him.

Edited March 26, 2020 by Invocation

[Frustration]

Welcome to the shard @jammy627 you have done everything right as far as I can tell for posting here good job.  

[Master Silver]

This is sorta a side note, but related. Did Brandon ever say what would have happened if Dalinar bonded that honor blade? I am very curious what would happen now that he is a full Bond Smith (of the third Ideal right?). The Storm Father said he would become a Wind Runner without oaths and something more. Any idea what that something is?

[+Invocation]

23 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

This is sorta a side note, but related. Did Brandon ever say what would have happened if Dalinar bonded that honor blade? I am very curious what would happen now that he is a full Bond Smith (of the third Ideal right?). The Storm Father said he would become a Wind Runner without oaths and something more. Any idea what that something is?

Given that Dalinar can supercharge Radiants, he may never run out of Stormlight if he were to bond Jezrien's Blade. Also worth noting is that then he'd have a double-helping of Adhesion, which would be...interesting.

[Master Silver]

And three surges. Adhesion, gravitation, and (the thing that makes stones come together) (cohesion maybe). It would also, assuming he gets his armor make him the the third strongest being on Roshar, although he may already be that. 

[+Invocation]

26 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

And three surges. Adhesion, gravitation, and (the thing that makes stones come together) (cohesion maybe). It would also, assuming he gets his armor make him the the third strongest being on Roshar, although he may already be that. 

Tension is the other Bondsmith Surge, and it's unclear if he will actually get armor due to wonky Bondsmith stuff and unclear mechanics of Plate creation.

[Master Silver]

The way the glory spren were whirling about him at the end of OB I just figured next book everyone gets armor. They will need it, especially consider many of the fused sat this battle out. I don't think they (team Radiant? Team Honor??) can lose battles if Dalinar can create a perpendicularity every battle though. 

[ftl]

22 hours ago, jammy627 said:

I could be getting confused between the content in the books, but there's something about the Honorblade that showed up with Taln. I made an account just to ask this question so if this was posted the wrong way/in the wrong place, someone let me know. Also, I guess I should say spoiler alert for anyone who hasn't finished reading.

1) Taln shows up at the end of The Way of Kings with his Honorblade. Shortly afterwards, he's brought to the Shattered Plains.

2) Dalinar bonds Taln's blade and displays it for the first time when confronting Amaram about his lies concerning Kaladin's past.

Sometime in between those two points, the Honorblade is replaced. Note the description of the blade in the first scene where Taln appears, and compare to the description of the blade that Dalinar bonds and threatens Amaram with. They're different.

22 hours ago, jammy627 said:

3) Dalinar bonds the Stormfather and releases his Shardblade when he hears its screams. Here's my first question: Why is it a Shardblade and not the Honorblade? I thought it was Taln's blade.

4) Later, Dalinar is seen with an Honorblade he's hidden in the sewers. This is later given to Bridge 4 to practice with when Kaladin is not around.

5) The Honorblade is stolen by a Parshendi in smokeform, with Teft's coat. Here's my second question: Was this Taln's Honorblade or Szeth's former Honorblade?

It's Szeth's honorblade, that's why it gives windrunner powers instead of whatever powers Taln's honorblade would give.

22 hours ago, jammy627 said:

 

[+Invocation]

1 minute ago, Master Silver said:

The way the glory spren were whirling about him at the end of OB I just figured next book everyone gets armor. They will need it, especially consider many of the fused sat this battle out. I don't think they (team Radiant? Team Honor??) can lose battles if Dalinar can create a perpendicularity every battle though. 

I'd like to think that he'd be able to manifest Bondsmith armor, since he manages to manifest the same geometric pattern that seemed to increase his strength that Jasnah did, but I'm not even confident that Plate will manifest the same way without Honor's influence being there. 

[Master Silver]

One encouraging thing about that is the Stormfather still has his memory and can look back at past events with new understanding since he is much more aware than he has ever been in the past. The Nahle bond continues to change him and help him develop. In some ways, the Stormfather, plus the library of memories should give the Radiants a critial link to the past. Also what would happen if Dalinar super charges a dead set of plate or a dead blade. He seems slightly behind his son in terms of reviving a dead blade. Not having the blackthorn on the battle field seems like a mistake (even if he could only help fight for a few years, that would be thousands of Alethei troops saved and enemies slain 

[cfphelps]

On 3/26/2020 at 11:31 PM, Invocation said:

I'd like to think that he'd be able to manifest Bondsmith armor, since he manages to manifest the same geometric pattern that seemed to increase his strength that Jasnah did, but I'm not even confident that Plate will manifest the same way without Honor's influence being there. 

Agreed. When he pulls Venli into the vision and Odium is breaking into the vision, it strongly hints at him having a shard gauntlet on his hand as he slides down the rock. 

Edited March 28, 2020 by cfphelps

[Ascended]

Would Hoid have taken Talns honorblade or given it to someone for safekeeping? 

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Ascended said:

Would Hoid have taken Talns honorblade or given it to someone for safekeeping? 

We know Hoid does not have it.  I suppose he could have passed it on to someone.

Quote

Questioner

The Herald of War at the end of Way of Kings-- I assume he had an Honorblade with him?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay... So when Dalinar had the sword that he gave up...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

...for the Stormfather it actually cried, which it typically happens if there's spren in the sword, which means that was not an Honorblade, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and if you look they're described differently!

Questioner

Which means somebody else has the sword, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

The sword was switched out!

Questioner

Probably by Wit. I'm not going to ask you for spoilers, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Wit does not have the sword.

Questioner

No!?

Brandon Sanderson

But... I can't-- I dunno if I've told people whether or not he at one point had the sword... But he does not have the sword now.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

 

[Hyarmenatan]

How is it even possible - and even more confirmed by WoB above - that the blade the madman had in the Kholinar was actually the Honorblade? They gave up their blades and Shins hold them. I thought that the Heralds not only left the swords and went the other way, but also severed the bond with them. Those were not THEIR swords anymore. But now, out of nowhere, Taln-madman has the Honorblade on his person. Did he go to Shinovar, fought off the shamans and took it back? Or maybe they never actually gave away the swords and the bond was not broken? In that case, how come the Shins had been able to train multiple people in using Surges?

To me, the entire giving up on Honorblades in the WoK Prologue would not make sense unless the bond is also broken. The only possible explanation of the above is that the blade knows it belongs to specific Herald, no matter who wields it at the moment, and the rightfull Herald can summon it anytime. Otherwise, I have no idea how the Taln-madman could have had a Honorblade shortly after going back to Roshar.

 

[Irishlawyer]

22 minutes ago, Hyarmenatan said:

How is it even possible - and even more confirmed by WoB above - that the blade the madman had in the Kholinar was actually the Honorblade? They gave up their blades and Shins hold them. I thought that the Heralds not only left the swords and went the other way, but also severed the bond with them. Those were not THEIR swords anymore. But now, out of nowhere, Taln-madman has the Honorblade on his person. Did he go to Shinovar, fought off the shamans and took it back? Or maybe they never actually gave away the swords and the bond was not broken? In that case, how come the Shins had been able to train multiple people in using Surges?

To me, the entire giving up on Honorblades in the WoK Prologue would not make sense unless the bond is also broken. The only possible explanation of the above is that the blade knows it belongs to specific Herald, no matter who wields it at the moment, and the rightfull Herald can summon it anytime. Otherwise, I have no idea how the Taln-madman could have had a Honorblade shortly after going back to Roshar.

 

In the WoK Prologue, there are only nine honorblades; seven when the Heralds show up, and the two present put theirs in the stone.  The Shin acquired those nine blades, but they never had all ten.  Taln had the remaining sword with him in Braize, it was not on Roshar ever since he died during Aharietiam.  It appeared with him when he came back to Roshar. 

[Hyarmenatan]

31 minutes ago, Irishlawyer said:

In the WoK Prologue, there are only nine honorblades; seven when the Heralds show up, and the two present put theirs in the stone.  The Shin acquired those nine blades, but they never had all ten.  Taln had the remaining sword with him in Braize, it was not on Roshar ever since he died during Aharietiam.  It appeared with him when he came back to Roshar. 

Totally forgot about the fact that Taln's HB was never at Shinovar. Thank you.

[Irishlawyer]

No problem, there's a whole lot going on in this series.  I know there isn't much to it, but I like the low-key symbolism of nine honorblades left at Aharietiam, the breaking of the Oathpact, when nine is also a symbolic number for Odium.  

[Master Silver]

I do think that Dalinar is going to need a shard blade to defend himself, and the way he was resisting fighting as a general for all of OB ultimately leading to him confronting an army alone, leads me to think he will rethink what he has done and try a more balanced approach. So he will need a blade that doesn't scream (I'd rather it be OB than an honor blade though)

[NameIess]

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

I do think that Dalinar is going to need a shard blade to defend himself, and the way he was resisting fighting as a general for all of OB ultimately leading to him confronting an army alone, leads me to think he will rethink what he has done and try a more balanced approach. So he will need a blade that doesn't scream (I'd rather it be OB than an honor blade though)

No, I don't think he'll need a Shardblade. When he confronted the army, he was more confronting Odium. Dalinar's Surges are not meant for combat. That doesn't mean he'll be bad at combat, or that he won't fight at all, (he's the Blackthorn, after all.) but I think that he's going to be a leader as opposed to a fighter.

[Irishlawyer]

37 minutes ago, Nameless said:

That doesn't mean he'll be bad at combat, or that he won't fight at all, (he's the Blackthorn, after all.) but I think that he's going to be a leader as opposed to a fighter.

I feel as though he may transition to a role where he cannot fight at all.  It'll get to a point where committing himself to the battlefield would be too much of a liability, either because he cannot fight as well against other Surgebinders/Fused/whatnot, or he's more needed in a command role.  It'll end his character arc, no longer the Blackthorn of old.