The Unmade and Minor Spren

[18th Shard]

When Shallan faces Re-Shephir (the Midnight Mother), she notes mentally, "it's like a creationspren. Only so, so wrong."

This got me thinking. I've seen theories matching the Unmade to Surges, to Radiant orders, to Heralds. But what about the minor spren that seem to pop up with each Radiant order?

Midnight Mother -> creationspren -> Lightweavers

The cousin spren theorized about include:

windspren - Windrunners

creationspren - Lightweavers

lifespren - Edgedancers

gloryspren - Bondsmiths (note, however, that there is no correlating Unmade to the order of Bondsmiths, according to WoB).

The Unmade:

Ashertmarn - the Heart of the Revel
Ba-Ado-Mishram
Chemoarish - Dustmother
Dai-Gonarthis - Black Fisher
Moelach (death rattles)
Nergaoul (the Thrill)
Re-Shephir - Midnight Mother
Sja-anat - Taker of Secrets
Yelig-nar - Blightwind

Thus maybe Yelig-nar, the Blighwind, is similar in some way to windspren; Chemoarish to firespren, or whichever spren are the cousins of ashspren.

Ideas?

[Karger]

Logicspren are according to some associated with Elsecallers. 

[Honorless]

We'd need a few more books to be able to definitively spot a pattern but most people agree that there's secondary spren to the Knights Radiant Orders and that the Unmade have some parallels to them (minus Bondsmiths), so yes, there should be a link between the Unmade and these secondary spren

[18th Shard]

Oh, I am aware of those theories. The point of this one was more of a "maybe we are going about this backwards". Instead of creationspren - > Lightweavers - > midnight mother, it would be Lightweavers - > creationspren - > midnight mother, if that makes sense. 

[Honorless]

Ah, you're looking for the what they were before they were unmade?  "We were made, then unmade"~(Sja-Anat)

[+asmodeus]

I have put an immense amount of thought into this.

To the best of my understanding, these associations work the best:

1. Windrunners : Ba-Ado-Mishram; The Leader
   • focus on protecting and saving people over killing vs a suspected focus on vengeance, with utter disregard for the cost of life
2. Skybreakers : Yelig-nar; The Lawman
   • focus on external justice and objective laws vs supreme confidence and pride in the self as arbitrator, a trait shared by Aesudan and Amaram; also smoke
3. Dustbringers : Ashertmarn; The... Guardian? Sentinel? I dunno
   • focus on channeling passion and fiery nature towards productive, constructive and/or responsible purposes vs letting go of all responsibility, letting loose all passion; also fire
4. Edgedancers : Moelach; The Medicine Man / The Gardener
   • focus on looking at people as people and truly caring for their well-being vs cheapening and commoditizing individual life by making individual death enticing via death rattle "rewards"
5. Truthwatchers : Sja-anat; The Teacher
   • suspected focus on understanding how things grow and change over time, and using it in a selfless manner to help people perfect/improve themselves, vs using that understanding to selfishly manipulating and corrupting others to serve one's own purposes; also spying and eyes
6. Lightweavers : Re-shephir; The Artist
   • don't need to say much
7. Elsecallers : ? Dai-Gonarthis; The Philosopher
   • random guess
8. Willshapers : ? Chemoarish; The Innovator
   • random guess
9. Stonewards : Nergaoul; The Warrior
   • an army that defends vs an army that conquers; defense vs offense; survive and withstand the storm vs overcome challenge by defeating everyone else
10. Bondsmiths : Odium's Champion; The Priest
    • can't really explain this in one line

Edited April 12, 2020 by asmodeus

[Halyo_Alex]

2 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

I have put an immense amount of thought into this.

To the best of my understanding, these associations work the best:

1. Windrunners : Ba-Ado-Mishram
   • focus on protecting and saving people over killing vs a suspected focus on vengeance
2. Skybreakers : Yelig-nar
   • focus on external justice and objective laws vs supreme confidence and pride in the self as arbitrator, a trait shared by Aesudan and Amaram
3. Dustbringers : Ashertmarn
   • focus on channeling passion and fiery nature towards productive, constructive and/or responsible purposes vs letting go of all responsibility
4. Edgedancers : Moelach
   • focus on looking at people as people and truly caring for their well-being vs cheapening and commoditizing individual life by making their death enticing via death rattles
5. Truthwatchers : Sja-anat
   • suspected focus on understanding how things grow and change over time, and using it in a selfless manner to perfect/improve people, vs selfishly manipulating and corrupting others to serve one's own purposes
6. Lightweavers : Re-shephir
   • don't need to say much
7. Elsecallers : ? Dai-Gonarthis
   • random guess
8. Willshapers : ? Chemoarish
   • random guess
9. Stonewards : Nergaoul
   • an army that defends vs an army that conquers; defense vs offense; survive and withstand the storm vs 
10. Bondsmiths : Odium's Champion
    • can't really explain this in one line

Interesting...
So look for Gloryspren around Odium's Champion. OH WAIT...

Pathetic jokes aside, those are some really plausible connections there. I wonder if these connections to lesser spren can solidify the Willshapers and Elsecallers' corresponding Unmade.

[+asmodeus]

34 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Interesting...
So look for Gloryspren around Odium's Champion. OH WAIT...

Pathetic jokes aside, those are some really plausible connections there. I wonder if these connections to lesser spren can solidify the Willshapers and Elsecallers' corresponding Unmade.

Mmhmm. Also, nine shadows, plate but no blade, intimate connection to God, etc.

We've seen so little of both Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish that it's really hard to predict. I've put Chemoarish with the Willshapers because of her being called the Dustmother, which could, if you squint hard enough, be seen as someone who focuses on breaking things down in contrast to building things up. And hence DG has to go with the Elsecallers. Totally tentative though.

The others, I have varying degrees of confidence in.

[Halyo_Alex]

5 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

We've seen so little of both Dai-Gonarthis and Chemoarish that it's really hard to predict. I've put Chemoarish with the Willshapers because of her being called the Dustmother, which could, if you squint hard enough, be seen as someone who focuses on breaking things down in contrast to building things up. And hence DG has to go with the Elsecallers. Totally tentative though.

Hmm... Well with the Death Rattle we have on Dai-Gonarthis: "Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!"

It makes me wonder if he would be a legitimate fit with the Elsecallers, as they are all about logic and reason over emotion. What would be more tempting for someone desiring logic than a spren that could literally take away your emotion to let you think clearly. That also does feel like a corruption of a Logicspren. So devoid of emotion that it literally sucks it in from others by force (or by choice, perhaps...).

[+asmodeus]

2 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

Hmm... Well with the Death Rattle we have on Dai-Gonarthis: "Let me no longer hurt! Let me no longer weep! Dai-gonarthis! The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!"

It makes me wonder if he would be a legitimate fit with the Elsecallers, as they are all about logic and reason over emotion. What would be more tempting for someone desiring logic than a spren that could literally take away your emotion to let you think clearly. That also does feel like a corruption of a Logicspren. So devoid of emotion that it literally sucks it in from others by force (or by choice, perhaps...).

Ooooh, nice. It's crackpot in just the right way.

[18th Shard]

6 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

When battle starts outside Thaylen City, Dalinar walks up to Odium, Venli and two Fused. He then proceeds to give orders on how he wants the thunderclaps to be deployed. During this time Venli mentions a black smoke in a humanoid shape just next to Odium. Dalinar also mention seeing this smoke human form.

 

A little later Amaram comes up and Odium indicates to the Fused that Yelig-nar would be hosted by Amaram. One of the Fused then proceeds to give Amaram a " Smokestone".

Amaram doesn't immediately consume it but later when Kaladin comes out of the Perpendicularity and they start fighting he does consume it. We see it from Kaladin pov saying 'Did he just swallow something"?

 

Amaram powers through Yelig-nar starts kicking in. And the fight between Kaladin and Amaram starts earnestly. Amaram slowly starts getting enveloped by black smoke which in turn crystallized to Amethyst.

So I am thinking there were 3 unmade that day in Thaylen City. 1. Thrill , 2. Yelig-nar ( black smoke after ingestion of Smokestone ) 3. Unnamed Unmade mentioned as black smoke in rough human form. It was specifically mentioned that black smoke was next to Odium. But it was left ambiguous for us to assume this black smoke is the same as the one Amaram got covered ingesting Smokestone containing Yelig-nar. But in fact it is not mentioned again during battle.

 

6 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

The 3rd black smoke could have been BaAdo Mishram

 

6 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

Or it could be the unnamed Unmade. Odium is about extreme passions... hatred or Jealousy etc. So maybe this silent Unmade is a stalker aspect of Odium without ever getting noticed by anyone.

While this discussion may be pertinent later on, it really has no bearing on the original topic as discussed above, and maybe should just get its own topic or Q&A question. In the future, please use the edit function instead of double- or triple-posting.

Thanks!

[Master Silver]

Had a crazy thought...shardblades (the dead ones), have a gem on the pommel that allows the shardholder to connect to the blade. The Thrill has now been captured in a gem. What would happen if that gem was placed in the pommel of a dead shard blade? Not saying it would be smart, but what would happen.

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

Had a crazy thought...shardblades (the dead ones), have a gem on the pommel that allows the shardholder to connect to the blade. The Thrill has now been captured in a gem. What would happen if that gem was placed in the pommel of a dead shard blade? Not saying it would be smart, but what would happen.

I think it is a bit too big.  That being said there is no reason you could not make a fabrail.  In fact a thread exists for that.

 

[Mat]

On 3/24/2020 at 10:36 PM, asmodeus said:

I've put Chemoarish with the Willshapers because of her being called the Dustmother, which could, if you squint hard enough, be seen as someone who focuses on breaking things down in contrast to building things up. 

I kind of thought that Chemoarish went with the Dustbringers because of the same reasons. Is that too obvious?

[Red Windrunner]

It’s an outlandish theory but I think the Unmade are actually corrupted splinters of Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion which explain why only a few of the Unmade are sentient. 

I believe Sja Anat is the sentient remains of Ambition which is why she plans on betraying Odium. 

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Red Windrunner said:

It’s an outlandish theory but I think the Unmade are actually corrupted splinters of Ambition, Devotion, and Dominion which explain why only a few of the Unmade are sentient. 

I believe Sja Anat is the sentient remains of Ambition which is why she plans on betraying Odium. 

How would Odium have carried them from their respective planets?

[Red Windrunner]

56 minutes ago, Karger said:

How would Odium have carried them from their respective planets?

I don’t think he carried them. He subjugated them and made them serve him as his lieutenants. But Lift’s healing combined with Dalinar’s call to unify maybe he can remake them and Ambition rejoins the battle in the back five. With another shard we could get new Spren and Radiant Orders

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Red Windrunner said:

I don’t think he carried them. He subjugated them and made them serve him as his lieutenants. But Lift’s healing combined with Dalinar’s call to unify maybe he can remake them and Ambition rejoins the battle in the back five. With another shard we could get new Spren and Radiant Orders

Spren are bound to the Rosharan system.  The Unmade are spren.  This could indicate that either they know something that even Hoid is after(how to get a spren off world) or that your theory is...

I also think that resurrecting ambition is a bit much.  SA is supposed to be self contained(mostly).  Adding a new shard is something that I don't think Brandon is going to do.

[Red Windrunner]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Spren are bound to the Rosharan system.  The Unmade are spren.  This could indicate that either they know something that even Hoid is after(how to get a spren off world) or that your theory is...

I also think that resurrecting ambition is a bit much.  SA is supposed to be self contained(mostly).  Adding a new shard is something that I don't think Brandon is going to do.

I would typically agree.  That’s why I doubt we will see dominion and devotion as there are Selish. Ambition hasn’t and can’t be a major player in the cosmere conflict. I admit it’s improbable. And they’re defined as spren yes. But that’s from a rosharan perspective. One of those when you’re a hammer everything around you looks like a nail kind of things

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Red Windrunner said:

And they’re defined as spren yes. But that’s from a rosharan perspective. One of those when you’re a hammer everything around you looks like a nail kind of things

Mistborn spoilers.

Spoiler

Kelseir also can't leave Scadrial for the same reason.

It is not just a rosharan thing.

[Red Windrunner]

@Karger the theory is outlandish I’ll admit. And I give it less than 5% likelihood of happening but that’s what’s fun about it. I don’t have hardly any evidence beyond Odium shattering those Shards and them not being active players. 

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, Red Windrunner said:

@Karger the theory is outlandish I’ll admit. And I give it less than 5% likelihood of happening but that’s what’s fun about it. I don’t have hardly any evidence beyond Odium shattering those Shards and them not being active players. 

It is a fun theory.  It just has several more interesting implications.