Jump to content

Syl's fate


Frustration

Recommended Posts

8 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

One the Honorspren is not Ico and he was talking about a forced seperation.

Second Jasnah has no way to know Radiants can leave trying and failing she might accept that as what "is" and move on.

Third just because Kaladin wants to do something doesn't mean he will be able to.  He could do some good in areas he has power over the land beneath deathbed river for example, but everywhere else he is powerless, others like Dalinar can apply political pressure to get change moving. What would Kaladin do? Incite riots? Kaladin works in very forceful ways and other people will drag their heels at that. Dalinar has shown his ability to convince people who don't want to work together to do so. Can Kal get even half of that?

Why are you making this a competition between Dalinar and Kaladin? Multiple people can do good at once. If a country has a good government, does that mean it has no need for a police force? The world will not be perfect, even after Odium is not on Roshar. Kaladin will have many things to do, be it from overthrowing the unfair lighteyes ruling system (which Dalinar hasn't seen fit to do in all his years of power, I might add) to helping singers get rights. There are so many wrongs on Roshar that they won't all be solved within Kaladin's lifetime.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Gderu said:

Why are you making this a competition between Dalinar and Kaladin? Multiple people can do good at once. If a country has a good government, does that mean it has no need for a police force? The world will not be perfect, even after Odium is not on Roshar. Kaladin will have many things to do, be it from overthrowing the unfair lighteyes ruling system (which Dalinar hasn't seen fit to do in all his years of power, I might add) to helping singers get rights. There are so many wrongs on Roshar that they won't all be solved within Kaladin's lifetime.

Lighteye supremacy should hit a wall when it comes out that some Heralds are darkeyed. As for the contest too many cooks in the kitchen, can you honestly see Kaladin opperating completely under Dalinar? Not just obeying him but having to default to him on everything? Because I can't.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Booknerd said:

Lighteye supremacy should hit a wall when it comes out that some Heralds are darkeyed. As for the contest too many cooks in the kitchen, can you honestly see Kaladin opperating completely under Dalinar? Not just obeying him but having to default to him on everything? Because I can't.

Why defer to him? Kaladin might ask his advice, but obey him completely? Why would he need to? I see Kaladin leading the Windrunners, a group dedicated to protection. I don't see Kaladin giving up on protecting people, especially not at the cost of killing Syl.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Nameless said:

especially not at the cost of killing Syl.

We already had that discussion

2 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Why defer to him? Kaladin might ask his advice, but obey him completely? Why would he need to? I see Kaladin leading the Windrunners, a group dedicated to protection

Kaladin isn't exactly what I would call a diplomat.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Your point? Why does he need to be a diplomat?

Because Dalinar is better and a bit of a control freak he will naturally take command in any cross nation situations the only time Kaladin leads is in his own land, which I expect will be taken care of relatively quickly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Booknerd said:

Because Dalinar is better and a bit of a control freak he will naturally take command in any cross nation situations the only time Kaladin leads is in his own land, which I expect will be taken care of relatively quickly.

Dalinar will be doing different things from Kaladin though. No matter how good of a politician you are, you still need soldiers, medics, relief workers, and so many other types of people. Kaladin has so far showed no interest in politics, and I don't think he's going to change so drastically that he will stop helping people just because he is forced out of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Please elaborate.

Kaladin doesn't care about politics to the extent that when he is unable to have authority in them, he'll decide that it's time to retire. He will continue to protect people any way he can, whether by fighting, flying relief supplies, giving people medical attention, training new Windrunners, or anything else he needs to do. He won't stop just because Dalinar doesn't need his help in politics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This sounded interesting at first, but now you're just describing these characters as completely different from who they really are.

Dalinar as some sort of extreme perfectionist who thinks he can rule a country with only him as staff (what?)

And Kaladin as some sort of tragic-ending hero who for some reason would stop protecting people under a my-job-here-is-done logic. If he was even capable of doing that, he would have done so long ago. There was a time when Kaladin thought his helping people only hurt them, and even then he kept doing it, because he just can't see someone in trouble and not react. Now he's been proven multiple times that he can make a difference by helping people, why would he ever stop now?

Besides, there's been a lot of tragedy in Kaladin's life and there's surely more to come. Do you really want his arc to end in tragedy to top things off?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Interesting theory; I'm not really seeing much evidence for it yet, though.

1) Kaladin's arc has been about protection - he is devastated by how people die when he's trying to save them. It's not just about random people close to him dying. Funnily enough, I think this makes Syl safer because he's not trying to protect her. (As another example, in the books so far his father and mother weren't the ones in danger of getting killed; they were the ones trying to protect Kal and Tien, not the ones being protected.)

2) Spren being vulnerable hasn't yet been foreshadowed in any way. The biggest danger to Spren is oathbreaking, not external threats that Kaladin would fail to protect Syl from. I think the biggest danger is something like the Recreance where all the knights break their oaths "for the greater good". But the way Kaladin is going, I can't see him ever going along with a "break oaths for the greater good" approach - we had that arc, he's on the other side of it now.

 

I think given Kaladin's story we're gonna see more bad times ahead for him (he really is pretty tragic) but I don't think it'll end up being via Syl dying.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

This sounded interesting at first, but now you're just describing these characters as completely different from who they really are.

Dalinar as some sort of extreme perfectionist who thinks he can rule a country with only him as staff (what?)

I would see him as a figure of ultimate authority and not one to share power especially after finding out all that literacy contains I think he will become more controlling not less, not that he won't have staff but I can't see independent Kal become a part of a group that has Dalinar making all the decisions.

9 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

And Kaladin as some sort of tragic-ending hero who for some reason would stop protecting people under a my-job-here-is-done logic. If he was even capable of doing that, he would have done so long ago. There was a time when Kaladin thought his helping people only hurt them, and even then he kept doing it, because he just can't see someone in trouble and not react. Now he's been proven multiple times that he can make a difference by helping people, why would he ever stop now?

Yes but what people here specifically @Nameless forget is in order to protect there needs to be an aggressor, not multiple guilty parties, nor equally innocent ones there is a reason Kal freezes in the battle at Kholinar. Unless the Rosharans post Odium turn to infighting(which I find unlikely as the population will be so decimated that it would be impossible) then the problems will be the duties of Skybreakers perhaps other Radiants might be able to just prepare or run supplies but Kal needs people, needs to know them. So I think that the only thing Kal turns to in this situation is surgery.

9 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

Besides, there's been a lot of tragedy in Kaladin's life and there's surely more to come. Do you really want his arc to end in tragedy to top things off?

Never said it would end tragically but I do think that Syl's death will be on the road trip.

1 hour ago, ftl said:

Interesting theory; I'm not really seeing much evidence for it yet, though.

1) Kaladin's arc has been about protection - he is devastated by how people die when he's trying to save them. It's not just about random people close to him dying. Funnily enough, I think this makes Syl safer because he's not trying to protect her. (As another example, in the books so far his father and mother weren't the ones in danger of getting killed; they were the ones trying to protect Kal and Tien, not the ones being protected.)

fair enough

 

1 hour ago, ftl said:

2) Spren being vulnerable hasn't yet been foreshadowed in any way. The biggest danger to Spren is oathbreaking, not external threats that Kaladin would fail to protect Syl from. I think the biggest danger is something like the Recreance where all the knights break their oaths "for the greater good". But the way Kaladin is going, I can't see him ever going along with a "break oaths for the greater good" approach - we had that arc, he's on the other side of it now.

Odium has almost killed the Stormfather what? three times now. and Kal killed a void spren in Oathbringer. Yeah spren death without Oath breaking is nothing new.

1 hour ago, ftl said:

I think given Kaladin's story we're gonna see more bad times ahead for him (he really is pretty tragic) but I don't think it'll end up being via Syl dying.

as Brandon says let's read and find out.

 

14 hours ago, Nameless said:

Kaladin doesn't care about politics to the extent that when he is unable to have authority in them, he'll decide that it's time to retire. He will continue to protect people any way he can, whether by fighting, flying relief supplies, giving people medical attention, training new Windrunners, or anything else he needs to do. He won't stop just because Dalinar doesn't need his help in politics.

Do you honestly see headstrong, independent Kal flying releif supplies for the rest of his life? Or training new Windrunners, maybe for a season but full time? what fighting do you think he will be doing? Surgery is the only thing I agree with here and then what? Syl is probably  the only spren so far that has not expressed personal desires of any sort. She wants Kal to be happy but what about if he does recover? What does she want then? I don't know and perhaps that's why I see her death she has no further use to the narrative.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

29 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

I would see him as a figure of ultimate authority and not one to share power especially after finding out all that literacy contains I think he will become more controlling not less, not that he won't have staff but I can't see independent Kal become a part of a group that has Dalinar making all the decisions.

That actually sounds as if Dalinar's mind will degenerate with time, but so far nothing has suggested that. If anything, he's learning the qualities of a good leader, what you say implies he will fail at that in the end, as he would have big trust issues. But a good leader knows how much responsibility they should keep and how much they should give away.

33 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Yes but what people here specifically @Nameless forget is in order to protect there needs to be an aggressor, not multiple guilty parties, nor equally innocent ones there is a reason Kal freezes in the battle at Kholinar. Unless the Rosharans post Odium turn to infighting(which I find unlikely as the population will be so decimated that it would be impossible) then the problems will be the duties of Skybreakers perhaps other Radiants might be able to just prepare or run supplies but Kal needs people, needs to know them. So I think that the only thing Kal turns to in this situation is surgery.

Yes, I think it's very possible he becomes a surgeon in the end, I also think it's very possible he stays a soldier the rest of his life, I wouldn't even find it strange if he managed to balance both, but in either of those three cases, I don't see any reason for Syl to leave. Sure, in one of those he's not fighting, but it's been made clear several times that spren are not there only to fight, they're simply attracted to people with their ideals. Remember Ym? He didn't live enough to swear the oaths, but he was already living by the ideals without even getting close to a battlefield.

37 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Never said it would end tragically but I do think that Syl's death will be on the road trip.

At this point, I don't even know what purpose that would serve. RAFO indeed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Eluvianii said:

Yes, I think it's very possible he becomes a surgeon in the end, I also think it's very possible he stays a soldier the rest of his life, I wouldn't even find it strange if he managed to balance both, but in either of those three cases, I don't see any reason for Syl to leave. Sure, in one of those he's not fighting, but it's been made clear several times that spren are not there only to fight, they're simply attracted to people with their ideals. Remember Ym? He didn't live enough to swear the oaths, but he was already living by the ideals without even getting close to a battlefield.

might I refer you to me:

 

46 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

 Syl is probably  the only spren so far that has not expressed personal desires of any sort. She wants Kal to be happy but what about if he does recover? What does she want then? I don't know and perhaps that's why I see her death she has no further use to the narrative.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

 Syl is probably  the only spren so far that has not expressed personal desires of any sort. She wants Kal to be happy but what about if he does recover? What does she want then? I don't know and perhaps that's why I see her death she has no further use to the narrative.

I think Syl's past and her wishes will become important at some point, but that will probably end with her living with Kaladin. The fact that we don't fully know her motivations yet doesn't mean she's useless for the plot and therefore should be thrown away. On the contrary, it most likely means we should be paying attention to her and the things she will do in the future. Quoting a completely unrelated story, I think "If you die today, I could die tomorrow" could describe their relationship to some degree now, it seems to be how Radiantship works.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Eluvianii said:

I think Syl's past and her wishes will become important at some point, but that will probably end with her living with Kaladin. The fact that we don't fully know her motivations yet doesn't mean she's useless for the plot and therefore should be thrown away. On the contrary, it most likely means we should be paying attention to her and the things she will do in the future. Quoting a completely unrelated story, I think "If you die today, I could die tomorrow" could describe their relationship to some degree now, it seems to be how Radiantship works.

I wasn't saying that it's impossible for her to develop but as of now if Kal can find some anti-depressents and a girlfriend then what does Syl want? 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Booknerd said:

I wasn't saying that it's impossible for her to develop but as of now if Kal can find some anti-depressents and a girlfriend then what does Syl want? 

She wants Kaladin to be happy. Why would she be discontent when he is happy? She'll probably stick around, keep giving Kaladin terrible relationship advice, constantly badger him to do things she wants him to, play pranks on him, "help" raise any children he may have, and help him keep his ideals. Why would she want to leave?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

She wants Kaladin to be happy. Why would she be discontent when he is happy? She'll probably stick around, keep giving Kaladin terrible relationship advice, constantly badger him to do things she wants him to, play pranks on him, "help" raise any children he may have, and help him keep his ideals. Why would she want to leave?

What purpose does she serve?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

What purpose does she serve?

She makes Kaladin happy.  That is a purpose.

Also by my theory delegation and trust will be Dalinar's next oath.

Finally two people who respect each other like Kaladin and Dalinar should be able to cooperate even if they do not agree on literally everything.  Things like banditry and warmongering are bad for example.

Edited by Karger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

What purpose does she serve?

She helps protect people. What person could protect better than Kaladin? Also, Kaladin wouldn't stand for a dictator. I could see him walking out, removing the Windrunners from Urithuru, if Dalinar took all the power for himself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Nameless said:

She helps protect people. What person could protect better than Kaladin? Also, Kaladin wouldn't stand for a dictator. I could see him walking out, removing the Windrunners from Urithuru, if Dalinar took all the power for himself.

And a benevolent dictator? When there is nothing left and Dalinar becomes the linchpin holding everyone together?

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

She makes Kaladin happy.  That is a purpose.

Also by my theory delegation and trust will be Dalinar's next oath.

 

Potentially and I do think he will get better but I can't say what literacy will make of him, he could develop an unhealthy paranoia thinking that he needs to see everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

And a benevolent dictator? When there is nothing left and Dalinar becomes the linchpin holding everyone together?

Kaladin won't follow a dictator. Dalinar doesn't want to be a dictator. He specifically walked away from the title of Highking.

6 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Potentially and I do think he will get better but I can't say what literacy will make of him, he could develop an unhealthy paranoia thinking that he needs to see everything.

Why would literacy change him? Even if he did develop paranoia, Navani or Jasnah would help him through it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

53 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

And a benevolent dictator? When there is nothing left and Dalinar becomes the linchpin holding everyone together?

Even a dictator does not rule alone.  He requires people to enforce his rule.  Kaladin is not a thug.  He will not support a unjust regime if there is a better option and there always is.

54 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Potentially and I do think he will get better but I can't say what literacy will make of him, he could develop an unhealthy paranoia thinking that he needs to see everything.

That seems rather far fetched.  Much more of a Taravangian thing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 6 months later...
On 3/18/2020 at 9:57 PM, Frustration said:

Proceed at your own risk.

Kaladin's arc is based around how everyone close to him dies, he must take the death of someone extremely close to him and accept it. There is no one closer than Syl. This is compounded by his admition that he needs to be there for the living not the dead, so unfortunately Syl must die irreversibly and totally, sent to the Beyond dead. I can't see a way around it and that terrifies me, but I see nobody else close enough to Kal to maximize the feels.

I must agree with this, especially because kaladin is far too capable and dangerous to be left in the alter half unless he overshadows everyone 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...