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Syl's fate


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21 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Honor has pregiven Orders that Stormfather is following, and if someone got close enough to becoming Honor then Stormfather would probably obey them too.

Yes, to find a potential Bondsmith and show them the visions. Have them refound the Knights Radiant. Honor was shattered like the other shards that Odium got to first. But we don't know what rebuilding a shard looks like. Where are the pieces? Would would searching for them entail?

Dalinar's "Ascension" looks very different than Vin's. If Dalinar became a shard, he may reshape it as he said, "I am Unity." We don't know he would refound "Honor". The Stormfather would probably no longer be if Dalinar became a Shard, because it would just be part of his Investiture.

Spoiler

Like how Vin absorbed Preservation's mist.

So if Dalinar was so suited to be a Shard, found all the pieces and forged a new Shard be it Honor or Unity, why would he hand it over to Kaladin?

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44 minutes ago, Naurock said:

Yes, to find a potential Bondsmith and show them the visions. Have them refound the Knights Radiant. Honor was shattered like the other shards that Odium got to first. But we don't know what rebuilding a shard looks like. Where are the pieces? Would would searching for them entail?

Dalinar's "Ascension" looks very different than Vin's. If Dalinar became a shard, he may reshape it as he said, "I am Unity." We don't know he would refound "Honor". The Stormfather would probably no longer be if Dalinar became a Shard, because it would just be part of his Investiture.

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Like how Vin absorbed Preservation's mist.

So if Dalinar was so suited to be a Shard, found all the pieces and forged a new Shard be it Honor or Unity, why would he hand it over to Kaladin?

Again I have another theory on that topic if you want to discuss it go there.

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You haven't replied to my comment. The fact is that this doesn't make narrative sense. We have already seen Kaladin lose Syl. We've already seen him react and pull himself out of the ashes. We've already seen his worst. We've seen it all in WoR. Brandon wouldn't do the same thing again.

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5 hours ago, Gderu said:

You haven't replied to my comment. The fact is that this doesn't make narrative sense. We have already seen Kaladin lose Syl. We've already seen him react and pull himself out of the ashes. We've already seen his worst. We've seen it all in WoR. Brandon wouldn't do the same thing again.

On the contrary I see this as certain. Syl for as much as I like her doesn't fit with the future I have in mind for Kal(I suppose death for Kal is an alternative but I don't want that) What separates this from WoR is it's irreversible, I saw this WoB that Syl wasn't as dead as the Shardblades because Kal was only in the process of breaking his oath. I think it would be interesting for a hero to be Depowered completely not just a oh got them back at the end of the episode.

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The future you have in mind for Kaladin is only a possibility. You can't base this statement, that Syl will die, on a possibility that is completley unrelated to this post. Besides, you did not even mention your theory about Kaladin being immortal and all in the original post. If you're going to base this theory off of that, I think it would be important to mention it there.

Regarding your second point, the fact that she wasn't completley dead doesn't matter - what matters is Kaladin and how he sees the world. Because of the fact that in the WoR climax he thought she was dead and he lost his powers, the impact on him was the same

 

Edit: just read the thread with the Kaladin theory, and it seems like it's been disproven. Why are you basing your arguments off of it?

 

Edited by Gderu
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2 hours ago, Gderu said:

The future you have in mind for Kaladin is only a possibility. You can't base this statement, that Syl will die, on a possibility that is completley unrelated to this post. Besides, you did not even mention your theory about Kaladin being immortal and all in the original post. If you're going to base this theory off of that, I think it would be important to mention it there.

Regarding your second point, the fact that she wasn't completley dead doesn't matter - what matters is Kaladin and how he sees the world. Because of the fact that in the WoR climax he thought she was dead and he lost his powers, the impact on him was the same

 

Edit: just read the thread with the Kaladin theory, and it seems like it's been disproven. Why are you basing your arguments off of it?

 

My veiw of Kaladins future regardless of my other theory don't compensate for Syl, even if he goes on in life as ordinary as he can have it I eventually see Syl becoming an obstructive. Feel free to disagree but I don't see Kal remaining Radiant until death he will eventually retire and I think that will be soon after Odium's defeat rather than later.

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12 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

My veiw of Kaladins future regardless of my other theory don't compensate for Syl, even if he goes on in life as ordinary as he can have it I eventually see Syl becoming an obstructive. Feel free to disagree but I don't see Kal remaining Radiant until death he will eventually retire and I think that will be soon after Odium's defeat rather than later.

You think Kaladin will not only decide that he doesn't want to keep protecting people, but be so determined to do so that he kills Syl? Once you swear the fifth ideal, you are in it for the rest of your life.

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4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

You think Kaladin will not only decide that he doesn't want to keep protecting people, but be so determined to do so that he kills Syl? Once you swear the fifth ideal, you are in it for the rest of your life.

That is not at all what I said, what do you think Kaladin does after Odium is beaten? Continue to follow Dalinar like a dog whose master no longer has need of him? Drift through the skies aimlessly wanting to help a group of people who no longer exists? Do you think Syl will be content with him living standard life? Or governing what land he has?(cause I don't) The watcher is no longer needed when they're is no danger. Brandon has said that there are ways a Radiant can retire, but Syl dieing is a much better option for causing an emotional reaction.

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51 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

That is not at all what I said, what do you think Kaladin does after Odium is beaten? Continue to follow Dalinar like a dog whose master no longer has need of him? Drift through the skies aimlessly wanting to help a group of people who no longer exists? Do you think Syl will be content with him living standard life? Or governing what land he has?(cause I don't) The watcher is no longer needed when they're is no danger. Brandon has said that there are ways a Radiant can retire, but Syl dieing is a much better option for causing an emotional reaction.

Float peacefully? no. I think Kaladin will continue to help the people of Roshar. Just because there isn't a war doesn't mean people can't be protected. Kaladin will fight for change, and make sure that corrupt people like Roshone don't get to ruin other's lives. There will never be true peace in Kaladin's lifetime. Do you think that millennia of enslavement will simply be forgotten? Speciesism discrimination will continue to be for decades, if not centuries, after Kaladin's death. Besides, even if there was peace on Roshar, what about the other worlds? I believe Jasnah at least knows of their existence, and do you think Kaladin is going to stand still and do nothing while

Mistborn era 2 spoilers:  

Spoiler

The Set conspire to destroy entire civilizations?

Warbreaker spoilers:

Spoiler

Another Manywar happens?

There will always be something for the Radiants to do, and even when he gets old, Kaladin will still probably help train new Radiants, and be looked up to as a true hero, one of the greatest Windrunners of all time.

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3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Float peacefully? no. I think Kaladin will continue to help the people of Roshar. Just because there isn't a war doesn't mean people can't be protected. Kaladin will fight for change, and make sure that corrupt people like Roshone don't get to ruin other's lives. There will never be true peace in Kaladin's lifetime. Do you think that millennia of enslavement will simply be forgotten? Speciesism discrimination will continue to be for decades, if not centuries, after Kaladin's death. Besides, even if there was peace on Roshar, what about the other worlds? I believe Jasnah at least knows of their existence, and do you think Kaladin is going to stand still and do nothing while

As I said follow on Dalinar's heels. This is the path Dalinar has chosen he must Unite the people. I would see Kaladin eventually settling down and practicing surgery like Lirin always wanted.

 

3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Besides, even if there was peace on Roshar, what about the other worlds? I believe Jasnah at least knows of their existence, and do you think Kaladin is going to stand still and do nothing while

Mistborn era 2 spoilers:  

  Reveal hidden contents

The Set conspire to destroy entire civilizations?

Warbreaker spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

Another Manywar happens?

There will always be something for the Radiants to do, and even when he gets old, Kaladin will still probably help train new Radiants, and be looked up to as a true hero, one of the greatest Windrunners of all time.

Oh so you do want Syl to die! Because that would be the easiest way for Kal to leave. Without Hoidaic(yes I am coining that term) levels of magical hacking a Radiant is stuck on Roshar.

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3 hours ago, Booknerd said:

As I said follow on Dalinar's heels. This is the path Dalinar has chosen he must Unite the people. I would see Kaladin eventually settling down and practicing surgery like Lirin always wanted.

 

Oh so you do want Syl to die! Because that would be the easiest way for Kal to leave. Without Hoidaic(yes I am coining that term) levels of magical hacking a Radiant is stuck on Roshar.

It doesn't matter what Dalinar does. Kaladin will do what he thinks is best, and that is helping people. You're making it seem like doing good is a bad thing if someone else is doing it too. That's ridiculous.

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2 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

That's like saying all Spren would disappear if someone new Ascended to Honor

Except it isn't, because most spren came directly from Adonalsium and predate Honor and Cultivation arriving to Roshar.

Quote

Questioner

Spren. The phenomenon that creates spren. Is that Roshar-specific or is that a general effect?

Brandon Sanderson

Well, yes and no. So the question is, the effect that creates spren, is that Roshar-specific or is it general. The general fundamental rules that create spren are cosmere-wide. Spren are pieces of Investiture, usually pieces of Investiture that come straight from one of the Shards of Adonalsium, split off in some way, that because of human or other sapient creatures thinking about it or interacting with the power, the power starts to take on a life of its own. Develops personalities and comes alive, so to speak. And this can happen on any pla-- in any place where there is Investiture. So it could happen on any planet in the cosmere with significant amounts of free Investiture. The places you've seen this happen most commonly are on Sel and Scadri-- err Roshar. You haven't seen it on Scadrial, and you've seen little kind of hints at it on Nalthis, but not quite. And so-- But it's possible for it to happen anywhere. Seons and spren are basically the same thing with different powers-- powers kind of pushing them in different-- growth out of them-- That said, the non-sapient spren, so the spren that are not quite as-- They're not going to stand up and talk to you. Those all existed-- not all, but most of them existed on Roshar before the Shattering of Adonalsium.

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)

 

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9 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Oh so you do want Syl to die! Because that would be the easiest way for Kal to leave. Without Hoidaic(yes I am coining that term) levels of magical hacking a Radiant is stuck on Roshar.

It actually wouldn't take Hoid levels of magic hacking, there is a way, and I can imagine that it's going to be one of Jasnah's priorities to find it, even if Hoid doesn't just outright tell them how to do it.

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1 hour ago, Nameless said:

It actually wouldn't take Hoid levels of magic hacking, there is a way, and I can imagine that it's going to be one of Jasnah's priorities to find it, even if Hoid doesn't just outright tell them how to do it.

Yes it would Hoid is the only Radiant we know of to escape Roshar.

 

7 hours ago, Gderu said:

It doesn't matter what Dalinar does. Kaladin will do what he thinks is best, and that is helping people. You're making it seem like doing good is a bad thing if someone else is doing it too. That's ridiculous.

Not what I meant and you know it. Do you honestly see Dalinar letting someone else do the job he sees as divinely mandated to him? Dalinar wouldn't even let others come with him to Azir, he insisted on coming alone perhapse this changes but from what I've seen Dalinar isn't one to delegate.

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Just now, Booknerd said:

Yes it would Hoid is the only Radiant we know of to escape Roshar.

Actually, even Hoid can't escape as of now. There is a way to get off-world, and it's fairly likely that either Hid will tell Jasnah about it, Jasnah will find out about it on her own. The pre-recreance Radiants were cosmere-aware, as evidenced by the map, so I see no reason why they wouldn't have researched a way to get off-world, even if they didn't utilize it often.

3 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Not what I meant and you know it. Do you honestly see Dalinar letting someone else do the job he sees as divinely mandated to him? Dalinar wouldn't even let others come with him to Azir, he insisted on coming alone perhapse this changes but from what I've seen Dalinar isn't one to delegate.

You think Dalinar can do everything by himself? Dalinar is a uniter, Kaladin is a protector. Their jobs might overlap, but Dalinar will not be able to organize the Windrunners and lead them, nor will he be able to personally stop wars, fight to keep the peace, or fly supplies out to those with famines. If you think Dalinar can do everything by himself, then why bother with the rest of the Radiants? Kaladin isn't a Bondsmith, nor does he want to be one, so why would he care if a Bondsmith is doing their job well?

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52 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Actually, even Hoid can't escape as of now. There is a way to get off-world, and it's fairly likely that either Hid will tell Jasnah about it, Jasnah will find out about it on her own. The pre-recreance Radiants were cosmere-aware, as evidenced by the map, so I see no reason why they wouldn't have researched a way to get off-world, even if they didn't utilize it often

Mistborns Era 2 is at least after Stormlight 5 so yes Hoid gets off Roshar. Radiants are bound to Roshar much like SH

Spoiler

Kelisier is bound to Scandrial, and he hasn't figured out how to leave after 300 years, and he has Harmony to help out(if Harmony would do that)

 So I don't think we will see Radiants going anywhere for a long time.

55 minutes ago, Nameless said:

You think Dalinar can do everything by himself? Dalinar is a uniter, Kaladin is a protector. Their jobs might overlap, but Dalinar will not be able to organize the Windrunners and lead them, nor will he be able to personally stop wars, fight to keep the peace, or fly supplies out to those with famines. If you think Dalinar can do everything by himself, then why bother with the rest of the Radiants? Kaladin isn't a Bondsmith, nor does he want to be one, so why would he care if a Bondsmith is doing their job well?

If Dalinar does his job well(which he will) Kal's out of luck what do you see him doing on this senario, I can't picture him just training new Windrunners and going on supply runs he needs something more.

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46 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Mistborns Era 2 is at least after Stormlight 5 so yes Hoid gets off Roshar. Radiants are bound to Roshar much like SH

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelisier is bound to Scandrial, and he hasn't figured out how to leave after 300 years, and he has Harmony to help out(if Harmony would do that)

 So I don't think we will see Radiants going anywhere for a long time.

The difference is:

Mistborn: Secret History spoilers

Spoiler

Kelsier didn't have a team of researchers to help him, and he was never really a scientist to begin with.

You make it seem like getting off-world is an impossible task, it's not:

Quote

FirstSelector

So if I'm a Surgebinder, I have my own Cognitive entity with me. Can I go off-world with that and will everything continue to work in exactly the same way? Because we've seen Cognitive entities that don't--

Brandon Sanderson

So taking a Cognitive entity off-world is hard. So, Surgebinding, if you can find out how to make it happen, remember, the Investiture is keyed to Connection. This is why Kelsier is-- Oh, sorry, spoilers! When a certain somebody *laughter* had trouble getting off Scadrial, because he basically was a spren by that point so--*laughter* ...So, yeah Surgebinding would work off planet, but you'd have to get the spren off-planet first. That's hard to do. Cosmere-wide it's not hard hard but it is-- You'd have to know some stuff. You could learn how.

It's most certainly not an impossible task, and once Jasnah is no longer devoting all of her energies to stopping Odium, they should discover inter-planetary travel fairly quickly. 

50 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

If Dalinar does his job well(which he will) Kal's out of luck what do you see him doing on this senario, I can't picture him just training new Windrunners and going on supply runs he needs something more.

I see him protecting people. I see him arguing with the Skybreakers, helping refugees, taking down rogue Radiants or pockets of Fused that survived Odium's defeat. Besides, look at what a few hundred years of enslavement did to our country. We're still not over racism. Now look at Roshar: the Parshmen were turned into mindless slaves for Millennia. Do you honestly think that'll be forgotten in Kaladin's lifetime? Radiants will always be needed, and even if they weren't Kaladin wouldn't just go: "Alright Syl, now that I've saved the world, time to kill you." He doesn't want to retire, why would he? Even if Dalinar somehow makes world peace, Kaladin can always be a surgeon again.

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4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

, and even if they weren't Kaladin wouldn't just go: "Alright Syl, now that I've saved the world, time to kill you." He doesn't want to retire, why would he? Even if Dalinar somehow makes world peace, Kaladin can always be a surgeon again.

Retiring doesn't kill Spren I'll put the WoB here later I'm on my phone but there are ways to retire. And being a surgeon is what I agree with you on the question is why would Syl stick around at that point Kal is living a standard life, O would think that that's the point where he says thanks Syl I'm better now, and she goes to help someone else while he heals people through more ordinary means. 

9 minutes ago, Nameless said:

The difference is:

Mistborn: Secret History spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Kelsier didn't have a team of researchers to help him, and he was never really a scientist to begin with.

You make it seem like getting off-world is an impossible task, it's not:

It's most certainly not an impossible task, and once Jasnah is no longer devoting all of her energies to stopping Odium, they should discover inter-planetary travel fairly quickly. 

Why would Jasnah look into that? Being stuck the planet would seem like a minor restriction to them so I don't see why they would bother?

12 minutes ago, Nameless said:

 I see him protecting people. I see him arguing with the Skybreakers, helping refugees, taking down rogue Radiants or pockets of Fused that survived Odium's defeat. Besides, look at what a few hundred years of enslavement did to our country. We're still not over racism. Now look at Roshar: the Parshmen were turned into mindless slaves for Millennia. Do you honestly think that'll be forgotten in Kaladin's lifetime? Radiants will always be needed, 

No duh there will be problems, I just don't think Kal is the person for that he basically forgets about Rlain halfway through Oathbringer. Speaking of which Rlain would be perfect for the task you describe.

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14 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Retiring doesn't kill Spren I'll put the WoB here later I'm on my phone but there are ways to retire. And being a surgeon is what I agree with you on the question is why would Syl stick around at that point Kal is living a standard life, O would think that that's the point where he says thanks Syl I'm better now, and she goes to help someone else while he heals people through more ordinary means. 

Here's the WoB:

Quote

fangorn

So, if a bonded human were to decide for whatever reason that he/she wanted to retire from being a Radiant, is it possible to do that or is the Nahel bond a lifetime gig?

For example, say Kaladin felt he could no longer uphold the requirements of being bonded to Syl, or eventually he just got old or worn out.

Brandon Sanderson

Retiring from the bond is possible under mechanics I haven't talked about yet in the series.

This WoB is from 2016. Oathbringer was published in 2017. In Oathbringer, Ico said that until the fifth ideal is sworn, it is possible to break it without the death of either party until the fifth ideal. Syl would stick around, because the only other options are her death or Kaladin's. Even if Kaladin doesn't swear the fifth ideal, why would Syl leave him? Kaladin doesn't want Syl as some sort of therapeutic fairy, he wants to protect people. If he can't protect people, then who could? If he decides to be a surgeon, it will be because that is the best way for him to protect people, not because he's retired from protecting them.

22 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Why would Jasnah look into that? Being stuck the planet would seem like a minor restriction to them so I don't see why they would bother?

Because there are people and powers that could threaten her family? Why not do it?

22 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

No duh there will be problems, I just don't think Kal is the person for that he basically forgets about Rlain halfway through Oathbringer. Speaking of which Rlain would be perfect for the task you describe.

So Kaladin didn't care about the Parshmen's lives? he won't care if people are being oppressed like he and his family was oppressed?

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7 hours ago, Naurock said:

Except it isn't, because most spren came directly from Adonalsium and predate Honor and Cultivation arriving to Roshar.

After the shattering the Spren created by Adon went to either Honor or Cultivation.

So if someone new Ascended those spren would get absorbed. At least by your logic

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

 

It's not like when someone ascends they claim every piece of investiture. Vin was only able to draw in the mist because they were the raw power of Preservation. Not being used by anything else.

If someone new Ascended on Roshar your suggesting all Spren of H and/or C, would disappear. Which isn't the case

It's also like saying that if dalinar Ascended he'd absorb all of the highstorm investiture which also isn't true

Edited by Eternal Khol
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On 3/18/2020 at 8:57 PM, Booknerd said:

Proceed at your own risk.

Kaladin's arc is based around how everyone close to him dies, he must take the death of someone extremely close to him and accept it. There is no one closer than Syl. This is compounded by his admition that he needs to be there for the living not the dead, so unfortunately Syl must die irreversibly and totally, sent to the Beyond dead. I can't see a way around it and that terrifies me, but I see nobody else close enough to Kal to maximize the feels.

I agree that someone close to him has to die, and for that reason I would think it would be Lirin and not Syl. Lirin has told him multiple times that he is not going to be able to save everyone and it'll be poetic in a messed up way that it will be his death that gets Kaladin to finally accept the fact. 

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2 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

After the shattering the Spren created by Adon went to either Honor or Cultivation.

So if someone new Ascended those spren would get absorbed. At least by your logic

Chaos

So, at the Forbidden Planet signing you said that when Adonalsium was Shattered, all Investiture in the cosmere was associated to one of the Shards... So, what happened with Adonalsium's spren on Roshar? Were those associated to Honor and Cultivation? What happened with them?

Brandon Sanderson

So they were very-- They were already associated to certain parts of Adonalsium and they went with those associations. There's a lot of Cultivation in all of the spren, particularly the natural spren.

Footnote: Chaos is referencing this exchange.
Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

 

It's not like when someone ascends they claim every piece of investiture. Vin was only able to draw in the mist because they were the raw power of Preservation. Not being used by anything else.

If someone new Ascended on Roshar your suggesting all Spren of H and/or C, would disappear. Which isn't the case

It's also like saying that if dalinar Ascended he'd absorb all of the highstorm investiture which also isn't true

That's not what I'm suggesting. Also, your WoB says the spren are mostly Cultivation's Investiture. So how would Dalinar absorb that? I'm only talking about absorbing the Stormfather because he is a fragment of Honor.

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4 minutes ago, Naurock said:

That's not what I'm suggesting. Also, your WoB says the spren are mostly Cultivation's Investiture. So how would Dalinar absorb that? I'm only talking about absorbing the Stormfather because he is a fragment of Honor.

The Stormfather existed while Honor was still alive, he just didn't have Tanavast's cognitive shadow.

Edited by Nameless
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3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Here's the WoB:

This WoB is from 2016. Oathbringer was published in 2017. In Oathbringer, Ico said that until the fifth ideal is sworn, it is possible to break it without the death of either party until the fifth ideal. Syl would stick around, because the only other options are her death or Kaladin's. Even if Kaladin doesn't swear the fifth ideal, why would Syl leave him? Kaladin doesn't want Syl as some sort of therapeutic fairy, he wants to protect people. If he can't protect people, then who could? If he decides to be a surgeon, it will be because that is the best way for him to protect people, not because he's retired from protecting them.

Because there are people and powers that could threaten her family? Why not do it?

So Kaladin didn't care about the Parshmen's lives? he won't care if people are being oppressed like he and his family was oppressed?

One the Honorspren is not Ico and he was talking about a forced seperation.

Second Jasnah has no way to know Radiants can leave trying and failing she might accept that as what "is" and move on.

Third just because Kaladin wants to do something doesn't mean he will be able to.  He could do some good in areas he has power over the land beneath deathbed river for example, but everywhere else he is powerless, others like Dalinar can apply political pressure to get change moving. What would Kaladin do? Incite riots? Kaladin works in very forceful ways and other people will drag their heels at that. Dalinar has shown his ability to convince people who don't want to work together to do so. Can Kal get even half of that?

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