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I Really Reeaallyy Hate Shallan


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20 hours ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

ANGER.

Her entire character is her trying to become a better person; above her little quips! I didn't like Kaladin for awhile either until he freaking changedlike every good character should.

I'm going to stop you right there. I don't understand why everyone demands change out of there characters, yes it's necessary but it's hardly the make/break point about them.

A lot of people love Hoid but what character change has that man made? Szeth is(in my opinion) still the same person he was in the prologue of WoK, yet I love his character anyway. I liked Lift even before she began to change and I could probably read a whole book about her just being Lift(oh wait Edgedanncer exists). Character development is a very important part of a story but it is NOT the pinnacle of a good character. 

20 hours ago, Ghanderflaffle said:
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While Kaladin had to deal with petty lighteyes in Roshone, Shallan had to deal with her worse than petty father who, though not hurting her, hurt others in her stead where she could hear and later see the effects. 

Yes, Kaladin had to watch his squad get murdered, but Shallan murdered both of her parents in self defense and to protect her brothers. 

Both character have lost family, but for this one I do have to lean towards Kaladin

Shallan has had just as hard, if not more difficult, of a backstory as Kaladin.

Have you read WoK? Kal had it way worse than little miss oh a memory from when I was four is breaking me apart because normal people can remember that when their seventeen!! Not to mention the fact that not having thought about it in years should overcome even relatively decent memories! Kal literally has watched time and time again everyone he loves perish. His squad, untold numbers of slaves, bridge four, and most recently the wall guard/parshman conflict. Can you honestly tell me that what Shallan went through is as bad as what Kal dealt with?

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2 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Have you read WoK? Kal had it way worse than little miss oh a memory from when I was four is breaking me apart because normal people can remember that when their seventeen!! Not to mention the fact that not having thought about it in years should overcome even relatively decent memories! Kal literally has watched time and time again everyone he loves perish. His squad, untold numbers of slaves, bridge four, and most recently the wall guard/parshman conflict. Can you honestly tell me that what Shallan went through is as bad as what Kal dealt with?

Actually, WoK is my favorite, but yes, I can say that, in my opinion, she’s been through situations that are just as bad. Both have had some excessive mental trauma from all of their physiological torments in their pasts. Again, while I do prefer Kaladin, Shallan has also had a hard time, which I believe makes her a well written character.

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3 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Have you read WoK? Kal had it way worse than little miss oh a memory from when I was four is breaking me apart because normal people can remember that when their seventeen!! Not to mention the fact that not having thought about it in years should overcome even relatively decent memories! Kal literally has watched time and time again everyone he loves perish. His squad, untold numbers of slaves, bridge four, and most recently the wall guard/parshman conflict. Can you honestly tell me that what Shallan went through is as bad as what Kal dealt with?

I'd call their trauma close to even. Shallan spent 6 years under siege,  having to watch the gradual emotional destruction of her family on top of the normal stresses brought on by puberty,  with nothing but jokes and drawing talent for weapons. Her father consumed by anger, her oldest brother abandoning her, the next oldest looking like a serial killer, her last two brothers suicidal and addicted by turns. Kaladin 's trauma was like taking multiple punches, body blows. For Shallan it was like a giant with a foot on her back, pressing and pressing,  piling more weight upon her, knowing it would eventually crush her. For 6 years. And it kicks off with her having to murder her closest female relative. It ended with her having to put down the man who saved her from the consequences of that 1st murder like a rabid dog.

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I agree with the all non-Shallan-haters

While Shallan isn't the greatest character I would rather have her in the story than out of it. Not all of her quips are funny but most are, she's shown incredible resilience, and while she was mean to Kaladin (uncool) she wasn't trying to injure him (emotionally) just get under his skin, and I'm sure everyone has tried to antagonize others at one point or another. Without Shallan we wouldn't have Stick, or Pattern, two of the best Stormlight Characters. I'm not saying Shallan is amazing, I'm just saying she's a good strong character that doesn't deserve a lot of the things that are being said about her.

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The Hoid we encounter in the Cosmere stories we've been allowed to read is very much a finished product.  Because he isn't a focus character he almost serves as a foundational piece of scenery,  a Cosmere worldbuilding tool. He can afford to be the Cosmere version of Loki, unchanging, funny, at times cruel,  and possessing way more information than would be safe for anyone other than himself.  That will change when we finally get Liar of Partinel.  Then seeing him change will be essential to tell a good story.  TL:DR, we just aren't there yet with Hoid. 

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Also, if we are just playing "Who had it worse?" with Shallan and Kaladin, then only one of them grew up in a household under the influence of one of the Unmade. I suspect that by the time we are done, we will see just how terrifying this Unmade is/can be to be around.

 

And, we are only 3/10 of the way through the series. I would not expect these characters to have completely different personalities or to have overcome all of their trauma just yet.

Edited by Q10fanatic
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6 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The Hoid we encounter in the Cosmere stories we've been allowed to read is very much a finished product.  Because he isn't a focus character he almost serves as a foundational piece of scenery,  a Cosmere worldbuilding tool. He can afford to be the Cosmere version of Loki, unchanging, funny, at times cruel,  and possessing way more information than would be safe for anyone other than himself.  That will change when we finally get Liar of Partinel.  Then seeing him change will be essential to tell a good story.  TL:DR, we just aren't there yet with Hoid. 

There are tons of characters without arcs that I would say are better off for it Tom Bombadil doesn't change and yet he has a full book all to himself. I would honestly  be upset is Hoid changes, or Szeth for that matter I enjoy them as they are and don't need them to change.

Elantris

Spoiler

Raoden doesn't change at all and he is my favorite character.

And so many more I don't need them to change I need them to be.

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30 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

 I would honestly be upset is Hoid changes.

Truer words have never been spoken 

Though character arks aren't bad, they add a nice element to the story. It's just that not every character needs one. Some do though.

Edited by HemalurgicStickBreaker
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5 hours ago, Booknerd said:

I'm going to stop you right there. I don't understand why everyone demands change out of there characters, yes it's necessary but it's hardly the make/break point about them.

A lot of people love Hoid but what character change has that man made? Szeth is(in my opinion) still the same person he was in the prologue of WoK, yet I love his character anyway. I liked Lift even before she began to change and I could probably read a whole book about her just being Lift(oh wait Edgedanncer exists). Character development is a very important part of a story but it is NOT the pinnacle of a good character. 

Have you read WoK? Kal had it way worse than little miss oh a memory from when I was four is breaking me apart because normal people can remember that when their seventeen!! Not to mention the fact that not having thought about it in years should overcome even relatively decent memories! Kal literally has watched time and time again everyone he loves perish. His squad, untold numbers of slaves, bridge four, and most recently the wall guard/parshman conflict. Can you honestly tell me that what Shallan went through is as bad as what Kal dealt with?

I think the Kaladin/Shallan who had it worse question is explicitly addressed in WoR.  Kaladin himself acknowledges that Shallan's pain and suffering is on par with his - he can tell as soon as she opens even a little window into her true feelings.  It's just that her mechanism of coping is to suppress her own memories and paper over her feelings so she can keep on functioning.  Kaladin's method of coping is to withdraw and turn inward.  Both definitely have their flaws.

I personally don't exactly demand change but I like characters better when they do change.  It makes them feel more real and satisfying to read.  I think Szeth has changed in some ways as a character - the key change being that he has realized that he was not actually "Truthless" and all the things he did in WoK and WoR were not justified by Shin law.  Hoid is a minor character in Stormlight Archive, so you can't expect him to get enough screen time for a character arc where he would change.

Everybody likes what they like and that's fine.  If you don't like Shallan there's no problem with that.  But she's one of my personal favorite characters along with Kaladin.  I'm probably different than a lot of people here though - I value the politics, the emotional interactions, the planning, etc much more than the action and fighting scenes.  Lift, Hoid, and Szeth are probably my least favorite, though Lift is growing on me.

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2 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Everybody likes what they like and that's fine.  If you don't like Shallan there's no problem with that.  But she's one of my personal favorite characters along with Kaladin.  I'm probably different than a lot of people here though - I value the politics, the emotional interactions, the planning, etc much more than the action and fighting scenes.  Lift, Hoid, and Szeth are probably my least favorite, though Lift is growing on me.

How are we so similar yet so different I love politics and planning, but Hoid, Lift, and Szeth are my favorites.

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3 hours ago, agrabes said:

 Lift is growing on me.

I think Wyndle may do that too

I personally can't get this Kaladin Vs Shallan Horrible Backstory thing

Is it necessary to compare two different characters backstories? They're entirely different people who have had really different (though similarly depressing) experiences, I don't think you can compare their experiences because they're two characters people with vastly different personalities. I would just say that they both have had a really hard go of things and leave it at that.

Edited by HemalurgicStickBreaker
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13 minutes ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

Have you read Oathbringer? I'd call that a character arc in there. 

So he goes from trolling everyone to helping a child, seems like normal Hoid behavior. The only arc that wouldn't ruin Hoid is whatever made him what he is now.

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10 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

So he goes from trolling everyone to helping a child, seems like normal Hoid behavior. The only arc that wouldn't ruin Hoid is whatever made him what he is now.

His interactions with Shallan seem to be genuine human connection, which is not something we see him do with any other character in any other story. His bond with her seems more impactful for some reason, and she might bias his  decisions and actions in the future, maybe. 

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1 minute ago, teknopathetic said:

His interactions with Shallan seem to be genuine human connection, which is not something we see him do with any other character in any other story. His bond with her seems more impactful for some reason, and she might bias his  decisions and actions in the future, maybe. 

Hoid has friends he not totally alone. Also he is only interacting with the characters in Stormlight because it's easier to form a Nahel bond that way.

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57 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Hoid has friends he not totally alone. Also he is only interacting with the characters in Stormlight because it's easier to form a Nahel bond that way.

I'm genuinely confused by both statements here.

What friends have we seen of Hoid's? By far the most interactions we've ever seen between him and other characters are in SA. He told Dalinar he'd let the planet burn to achieve his own goals. They aren't his friends, at best they are friendly allies. He and Shallan have a quasi-mentor/mentee relationship at best. We know that the only other beings from his own time are the Shards and a dragon or two. He has never been shown to have true friendship with them either, although there is a clear familiarity with them.

We know that he has been gathering differing magic systems to himself, but I don't think we can take that to mean that he was hanging out with the Kholins to try to attract a spren. Rather, we know that one of his goals is to defeat Rayse and the Kholins are at the head of the fight against Rayse. Any interaction between Hoid and SA characters makes the most sense in that light. We also know that he didn't know why he was in Kholinar specifically until he found the Cryptic. He didn't go there with the immediate intent of rescuing a trapped radiant spren.

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35 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I'm genuinely confused by both statements here.

What friends have we seen of Hoid's? By far the most interactions we've ever seen between him and other characters are in SA. He told Dalinar he'd let the planet burn to achieve his own goals. They aren't his friends, at best they are friendly allies. He and Shallan have a quasi-mentor/mentee relationship at best. We know that the only other beings from his own time are the Shards and a dragon or two. He has never been shown to have true friendship with them either, although there is a clear familiarity with them.

Hoid at least was friends with most if not all the vessels and is friendly with Frost.

37 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

We know that he has been gathering differing magic systems to himself, but I don't think we can take that to mean that he was hanging out with the Kholins to try to attract a spren. Rather, we know that one of his goals is to defeat Rayse and the Kholins are at the head of the fight against Rayse. Any interaction between Hoid and SA characters makes the most sense in that light. We also know that he didn't know why he was in Kholinar specifically until he found the Cryptic. He didn't go there with the immediate intent of rescuing a trapped radiant spren.

here are some WoB to explain

Spoiler

Questioner

Is being a Knight Radiant at all genetic? Because you have Jasnah, Dalinar, and Renarin in the same family.

Brandon Sanderson

It is not genetic, however… Um… Families or people close to one another are more likely. It’s not genetic. So for instance, if everyone were adopted it would still have the same prevalence.

Questioner

Okay, fascinating!

Questioner

[interruption hard to hear]

Brandon Sanderson

Well, there are a couple of reasons for that. One is which, attracting the attention of a spren can mean that other spren are paying attention to that area. There are also things in the Cosmere (the shared universe of them) where people are connected spiritually. Um… and that’s part of the magic as well. So… You are more likely to become a Radiant if you know a Radiant.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 17, 2017)
Spoiler

JoyBlu

Both Tien and Kaladin are Radiant, you talked about how that wasn't hereditary, and how that was more because of where they were with association. Was it because they were associated with the same person, or the same place?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, Connection influences spren.

JoyBlu

Right, but was the Connection to a person that they were around?

Brandon Sanderson

Connection to people.

JoyBlue

So not necessarily the place where they were?

Brandon Sanderson

Right.

Joyblu

Because my way of thinking it might be with the people is because, like with the Purelake on the Cognitive Realm there would be more spren hanging out there because that was more land, right; so if you spent more time on that you would have more spren around you. So if you're closer to more water, you're closer to more spren.

Brandon Sanderson

That is not an irrelevant observation.

Skyward release party (Nov. 6, 2018)

So Hoid is trying to make connections with  Radiants because that increases his chances. I also fail to see what him being in Kholinar for purposes he didn't know has to do with anything, we are discussing the fact that Hoid has no Character arc.

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20 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

So Hoid is trying to make connections with  Radiants because that increases his chances. I also fail to see what him being in Kholinar for purposes he didn't know has to do with anything, we are discussing the fact that Hoid has no Character arc.

Hoid has no character arc as of now, but if we got an entire bookk of Hoid with no character arc, it would be dull.

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Just now, Nameless said:

Hoid has no character arc as of now, but if we got an entire bookk of Hoid with no character arc, it would be dull.

It would be Hoid. And given that It's Hoid and written by Sanderson he could literally make a conversation about eating fruit interesting.

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Just now, Booknerd said:

It would be Hoid. And given that It's Hoid and written by Sanderson he could literally make a conversation about eating fruit interesting.

For an entire book? With no character development? With a main protagonist that doesn't grow or change? Brandon could make that conversation good because he writes good character arcs. He writes good characters, and Hoid is fine without a character arc because he doesn't need one. Not yet. For now, he's simply the mysterious character that pops in for an occasional Easter egg or cameo. When he has an entire book written about him, if he has no internal conflict, then he won't remain the compelling character he is.

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Just now, Nameless said:

For an entire book? With no character development? With a main protagonist that doesn't grow or change? Brandon could make that conversation good because he writes good character arcs. He writes good characters, and Hoid is fine without a character arc because he doesn't need one. Not yet. For now, he's simply the mysterious character that pops in for an occasional Easter egg or cameo. When he has an entire book written about him, if he has no internal conflict, then he won't remain the compelling character he is.

Superman comics ran for years with no character struggle, Captain America was the same it's been done before and it can be again Character arcs just like any other aspect of writing are a guideline not a rule.,

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Just now, Booknerd said:

Superman comics ran for years with no character struggle, Captain America was the same it's been done before and it can be again Character arcs just like any other aspect of writing are a guideline not a rule.,

Those are comic book characters. This is Epic Fantasy. Would you read a book about a Gary Stu who goes around out-maneuvering all of his foes, with no internal conflict whatsoever? I'm not saying that Hoid needs to have a complete reversal in his views, but a little wavering in his goals couldn't hurt.

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