I Really Reeaallyy Hate Shallan

[LopentheHerdazian]

Alright let me get down to why she annoys me. 

She goes around especially in the first two books, always coming up with these funny little quips. But there not funny, there annoying. Not like hoid who mocks people she just tries to be clever. 

Now how she interacts with other characters. Alright why did sanderson, if he wanted to make is like Shallan then why the hell the first thing she did once she got to the plains was antagonise established characters. She stole his boots, had an argument, a fight, and in every situation she won. They clashed so much that you were kind of forced to choose. Who the hell going to choose Shallan over kalladin at the start of book 2. And the fact that she won meant that you just wanted her to lose at least. 

And what the hero is there to like about her. Kalladin is a badass or in Brandon's words, hypercompetent. Dalinar is a plot mover. Adolin is also hypercompetent. Even Renarin is an underdog. All these things make them likeable, Shallan has nothing of these. 

The only time that she becomes a plot mover is most of the way through book 2 which is the point when I start to slightly like her. 

Can someone tell me a single likeable trait about her before book 2.5?

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by LadyLameness
Edited for cursing

[Kalaksbreath]

Bro I don't like Shallan ether but there are topics about 50 pages long debating what's good and what's bad about her and there are good points on both sides I would suggest skimming over them 

[+Invocation]

There are so many posts about this that you didn't need to post it four times  

 

Edited March 13, 2020 by Invocation

[RShara]

That she can smile and make (deliberately bad) quips when she's been through as much pain as she has.

Also, you posted this several times. You can fix this by going to each extra post and Edit->Hide (or maybe you can Hide it without clicking edit first).

There are also umpteenth threads about Shallan and her relationships that are sometimes very insightful if you're interested in looking at them.

Edit:
I just realized, I should add: This is a perfectly valid opinion, one that's shared by many. And posting about it is great! We all love to hear more about what people think about characters, books and everything else I only wanted to say that since you sounded interested in hearing others opinions of Shallan, there are a lot of threads about her

Edited March 13, 2020 by RShara

[Frustration]

My main problem with Shallan is WoK she is boring and takes up time I want for Kal. Second she says she never had social interactions and then proceeds to be better than Kaladin who moved through this junk all his life. She fails to convince me of any pain. In fact I enjoy watching her suffer, if she could start RoW getting murdered I would be fine with that.

[teknopathetic]

She's my absolute favourite; I skip Khaladin backstory on reread these days. 

[Gderu]

This post has been marked as a duplicate by Gderu.

This post has already been answered here:

 

[Karger]

19 hours ago, LopentheHerdazian said:

She goes around especially in the first two books, always coming up with these funny little quips. But there not funny, there annoying. Not like hoid who mocks people she just tries to be clever. 

If you have read the first two books then you know that at this point it is kind of compulsive for her.  She has actually had a few real zingers.  If you end your preformance too quickly your audience is disappointed still makes me laugh.

19 hours ago, LopentheHerdazian said:

Who the hell going to choose Shallan over kalladin at the start of book 2. And the fact that she won meant that you just wanted her to lose at least. 

Why would you choose either of them?  Kaladin is about to murder Syl.  Their interaction comes off as realistic.

19 hours ago, LopentheHerdazian said:

Can someone tell me a single likeable trait about her before book 2.5?

Her scholarship and practicing power scenes are excellent.  I also really like her with Adolin(sue me).  Pattern will always be the best spren.   I really liked her moral dilemma in WoKs and I find her determined cheerfulness interesting. 

Just my two cents.

Edited March 13, 2020 by LadyLameness
Edited for quoted cursing

[SanderFan69]

Shallan starts to develop a major flaw in book 3. I found it weird and frustrating, but if you are looking for her to win less then you might like it.

[Nuatoma]

6 hours ago, Gderu said:

This post has been marked as a duplicate by Gderu.

This post has already been answered here:

 

This thread contains Oathbringer info.  If you haven't read it yet, careful...

Shallan?  Not my favorite character to read.  Like you mentioned, I found her annoying when she 'won' scenes with Kaladin in them.  However, I do think her storylines are interesting even though she makes bad decisions.

[Anomander Rake]

9 hours ago, Booknerd said:

My main problem with Shallan is WoK she is boring and takes up time I want for Kal. Second she says she never had social interactions and then proceeds to be better than Kaladin who moved through this junk all his life. She fails to convince me of any pain. In fact I enjoy watching her suffer, if she could start RoW getting murdered I would be fine with that.

Shallan has been trying for years to convince herself that she isn't in pain.  She uses Veil and Radiant as crutches who have sound pasts to pretend, while she compartmentalizes and struggles to deal with her past in any sense.  Kaladin has a much more common and more visible pain, which makes him much easier to relate to.

Shallan also isn't supposed to be a spear-brandishing badass like Kal, nor has she had a past remotely close to his.  I don't thinks its bold to say that most people were probably solidly team Kal post WoK.  She's struggling to to figure out how to be useful and constantly second guessing herself.

This doesn't make her a bad character, unlikable at times yes, but not objectively bad.  Just because I don't like her sometimes doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching her develop and interact with other characters.  She interesting!

Edited March 13, 2020 by Anomander Rake

[Honorless]

Oof but also hilarious. Shallan is disliked by a lot of Sharders and slammed in a lot of Topics but yours was the funniest. Yeah, she has a lot of faults and if I had to kill one of the ten major PoV characters I'd kill her. Heck there are actually plenty of Interlude characters I like more.

I actually liked Shallan more in WoK. WoR fleshed her out but that's also where her personality got grating. In WoK, her chapters felt like a respite from the horror of the Bridgecrews. The latter chapters also added some mystery (I had gone into the book blind). She started going downhill in WoR. And yeah, her attitude towards Kaladin didn't help endear her to me either. She got a bit better in OB, I feel. 

[Bigmikey357]

In a sort of paradoxical way, the vehement reaction to Shallan the OP displays and others share kinda highlights how good a character Shallan is. If she were blah it would probably take away from SA. 

 

[gloriousGlorfindel]

I'm honestly the opposite, I hated Kaladin for most of book one (until the end, that was effin epic). I didn't realize that he was depressed and just thought he was too emo for me. On a second read now that I know this, he is more interesting.

I loved Shallan right from the get go. She's really witty and I appreciate and empathize with her yearning for scholarship. And Jasnah is a big bonus!

Edited March 13, 2020 by gloriousGlorfindel

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Anomander Rake said:

Shallan has been trying for years to convince herself that she ins't in pain.  She uses Veil and Radiant as crutches who have sound pasts to pretend, while she compartmentalizes and struggles to deal with her past in any sense.  Kaladin has a much more common and more visible pain, which makes him much easier to relate to.

She still doesn't behave like she says she does which is just, "Why Brandon Why!?"

1 hour ago, Anomander Rake said:

Shallan also isn't supposed to be a spear-brandishing badass like Kal, nor has she had a past remotely close to his.  I don't thinks its bold to say that most people were probably solidly team Kal post WoK.  She's struggling to to figure out how to be useful and constantly second guessing herself.

I want action charecters.

1 hour ago, Anomander Rake said:

This doesn't make her a bad character, unlikable at times yes, but not objectively bad.  Just becuase I don't like her sometimes doesn't mean I don't enjoy watching her develop and interact with other characters.  She intersting!

I never quite understood why people demand change out of their characters to count them as good. No character will ever have a 100% agrement about weather or not the're bad. I like Jar Jar fight me. Furthermore I would say that if I don't like them I want them out of the story not changed, the character isn't real I have no moral obligation to give them a second chance.

5 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

In a sort of paradoxical way, the vehement reaction to Shallan the OP displays and others share kinda highlights how good a character Shallan is. If she were blah it would probably take away from SA. 

 

Wrong Shallan does take away from Stormlight. I would prefer if Jashnah did everything instead she is much better.

[Anomander Rake]

12 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

She still doesn't behave like she says she does which is just, "Why Brandon Why!?"

This is kind of the point I was trying to make here.  She's conflicted, unsure of her place and purpose, and is often using jokes/quips, however unfunny they may sometimes be, to deal or distance from people.

12 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

I want action charecters.

Fair.  For me Stormlight is a character study with some kickass fights and magic.

12 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

I never quite understood why people demand change out of their characters to count them as good. No character will ever have a 100% agreement about weather or not the're bad. I like Jar Jar fight me. Furthermore I would say that if I don't like them I want them out of the story not changed, the character isn't real I have no moral obligation to give them a second chance.

Wrong Shallan does take away from Stormlight. I would prefer if Jashnah did everything instead she is much better.

I never said I expect change from characters, or that they need to change to be a good character.  Dalinar is very much already the man he is from the start of WoK, only changing in how he views certain things as he learns more, and he's easily my favorite character thus far.  Change is merely something I enjoy in books, they exist to tell a story after all.

If you want Stormlight without Shallan, just skip her chapters bro lol, nobody is forcing you to read them.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Anomander Rake

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Anomander Rake said:

If you want Stormlight without Shallan, just skip her chapters bro lol, nobody is forcing you to read them.

OB I couldn't get most of the story without her viewpoint chapters and I need more Kaladin. fortunately Szeth is becoming mainstream and I can get more of him.

[teknopathetic]

21 hours ago, LopentheHerdazian said:

Alright let me get down to why she annoys me. 

She goes around especially in the first two books, always coming up with these funny little quips. But there not funny, there annoying. Not like hoid who mocks people she just tries to be clever. 

Now how she interacts with other characters. Alright why did sanderson, if he wanted to make is like Shallan then why the hell the first thing she did once she got to the plains was antagonise established characters. She stole his boots, had an argument, a fight, and in every situation she won. They clashed so much that you were kind of forced to choose. Who the hell going to choose Shallan over kalladin at the start of book 2. And the fact that she won meant that you just wanted her to lose at least. 

And what the hero is there to like about her. Kalladin is a badass or in Brandon's words, hypercompetent. Dalinar is a plot mover. Adolin is also hypercompetent. Even Renarin is an underdog. All these things make them likeable, Shallan has nothing of these. 

The only time that she becomes a plot mover is most of the way through book 2 which is the point when I start to slightly like her. 

Can someone tell me a single likeable trait about her before book 2.5?

 

Being a hero is not equivalent to being a hyper-capable sword-wielding man.

Her strength comes from being able to endure extremely horrible emotional situations and remain standing. She keeps moving forward in order to help the people she cares about despite the constant barrage of emotional cataclysms that are inflicted upon her. As a woman she is judged by how calm she can be and by how she can serve those of her house. Her entire identity grows out of easing the pain of the men around her, and she becomes extremely good at doing so. Shallan removes herself from the equation in order to be as helpful to those around her. What ends up happening is she isn't sure which shell of herself will be of most use, and she begins to become 3 strong people in order to selflessly help those she cares about. It takes her a long time to become comfortable with the fact that she is not just some sort of emotional pain-real.

In this she is stronger than Khaladin, as she has never given up on others in the way Khaladin has. Remember that Khaladin would have committed suicide if not for Syl bringing him a "leaf". Her strength is one of the things that impresses Khaladin, as he is usually the "strongest" one emotionally. 

As for Dalinar, he did the exact same thing as Shallan by forgetting his emotional pain. We forgive it more in him than we do in Shallan (who wasn't able to completely remove her trauma). 

Shallan is extremely strong, and I stand by the fact she is "stronger" than Khaladin and I have no issues wither her "winning" over Khladin. Shallan is Tien, and Khaladin would never be able to defeat that little guy anywhere outside of a battlefield. 

Edited March 13, 2020 by teknopathetic

[LopentheHerdazian]

23 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Being a hero is not equivalent to being a hyper-capable sword-wielding man.

Her strength comes from being able to endure extremely horrible emotional situations and remain standing. She keeps moving forward in order to help the people she cares about despite the constant barrage of emotional cataclysms that are inflicted upon her. As a woman she is judged by how calm she can be and by how she can serve those of her house. Her entire identity grows out of easing the pain of the men around her, and she becomes extremely good at doing so. Shallan removes herself from the equation in order to be as helpful to those around her. What ends up happening is she isn't sure which shell of herself will be of most use, and she begins to become 3 strong people in order to selflessly help those she cares about. It takes her a long time to become comfortable with the fact that she is not just some sort of emotional pain-real.

In this she is stronger than Khaladin, as she has never given up on others in the way Khaladin has. Remember that Khaladin would have committed suicide if not for Syl bringing him a "leaf". Her strength is one of the things that impresses Khaladin, as he is usually the "strongest" one emotionally. 

As for Dalinar, he did the exact same thing as Shallan by forgetting his emotional pain. We forgive it more in him than we do in Shallan (who wasn't able to completely remove her trauma). 

Shallan is extremely strong, and I stand by the fact she is "stronger" than Khaladin and I have no issues wither her "winning" over Khladin. Shallan is Tien, and Khaladin would never be able to defeat that li

7 hours ago, Anomander Rake said:

This is kind of the point I was trying to make here.  She's conflicted, unsure of her place and purpose, and is often using jokes/quips, however unfunny they may sometimes be, to deal or distance from people.

If you want Stormlight without Shallan, just skip her chapters bro lol, nobody is forcing you to read them.

. 

Let me make this clear, I don't just like Kaladin and dislike Shallan because he's good with the spear and she isn't. However, being hyper capable is typically a likeable trait in a character, you get to see a someone like Kaladin be incredible like in the arena scene "honour is dead, but I'll see what I can do.". I also like Kaladin because of how he grows as a character, how he moves the plot and just the bridge four segment essentially forced me to love him.

Shallan however, she's not strong, at least not as much as it seems she is. She just forgets the pain. Its cop out and it really annoyed me when everyone went crazy over how strong she was when she was just forgetting. Also, it really annoyed me that he just somehow managed at the age off like 4, to somehow have achieved the second ideal, having gone through no hardship. (this was before any problems with her father. The oaths of a lightbringer are about accepting truths what bloody truths did she accept at the age of 4.

I also have to make a few concessions. I liked her philosophy arc and I was getting excited when she was on the ship with Jasnah but mostly I liked those scenes not for her but for Jasnah, the questions it raised and Pattern. Let me get this clear Pattern is by far my favourite spren.

Ok her jokes, sure yeah she's making unfunny quips but we don't even get to know why she felt the need to do them till like half way through book two, up until then she was just this annoying little rat who kept trying to be funny. Like ooh well done you managed to call him a big bloody crab without him barely realising, no that's not funny it's annoying.

[Bigmikey357]

For me personally,  I both like and am frustrated by Shallan in equal parts. I like the quips and hate the coping mechanism.  I like her ability to be competent despite her issues and that she's strong in a non-traditional way, it annoys me when she acts her age which is unfair but a valid opinion.  I'm not defending her against those who hate her, it's probably hopeless to try and change anyone's mind about her. What I will say is that she's falling in line with the series structure so far.

WoK was Kaladin's book. He in many ways was a perfect fantasy protagonist,  one who many people fell absolutely in love with, me included.  He made me want to curb stomp him in book 2 because he backslid in many ways, ways that while realistic still made me loathe reading his chapters.  WoR was Shallan's book and she showed us how awesome she could be,  how effective she could be even without experience, her remarkable potential. OB exposed her and many times it was painful to read when her chapters came up. I expect Dalinar to get similar treatment in RoW.

Why do I bring this up? Because their narrative paths seem to display a singular theme.  Just being awesome and doing awesome things doesn't mean your issues automatically disappear. It takes work to fix your issues. Kaladin constantly must fight depression and his prejudices.  Shallan struggles with her identity like many young women,  like Vin had to once upon a time.  Dalinar has to learn to let go and how to reconcile his past with his present. It's good writing because it makes you feel things and feel them strongly. Whether you love or hate a character in this series you will have a strong emotional reaction that colors your perception of the entire series. 

[ftl]

Hm. I'm starting to feel this a lot in Oathbringer.

I liked Shallan fine in the previous books, the stupid jokes and quips are my style of humor and I think they're great. But in Oathbringer I'm starting to really not want to read her chapters at all...

[NameIess]

On 3/13/2020 at 7:44 PM, LopentheHerdazian said:

Shallan however, she's not strong, at least not as much as it seems she is. She just forgets the pain. Its cop out and it really annoyed me when everyone went crazy over how strong she was when she was just forgetting. Also, it really annoyed me that he just somehow managed at the age off like 4, to somehow have achieved the second ideal, having gone through no hardship. (this was before any problems with her father. The oaths of a lightbringer are about accepting truths what bloody truths did she accept at the age of 4.

Actually, it would be easier for her to accept truths about herself, because she hasn't hidden anything away.

[+Q10fanatic]

On 3/13/2020 at 6:44 PM, LopentheHerdazian said:

Shallan however, she's not strong, at least not as much as it seems she is. She just forgets the pain. Its cop out and it really annoyed me when everyone went crazy over how strong she was when she was just forgetting. Also, it really annoyed me that he just somehow managed at the age off like 4, to somehow have achieved the second ideal, having gone through no hardship. (this was before any problems with her father. The oaths of a lightbringer are about accepting truths what bloody truths did she accept at the age of 4.

You don't see the ability to overcome years of incredible and violent trauma as proof of strength? It's a coping mechanism. If it were perfect, she'd be a Mary Sue. The whole point of her arc in the present is that she is now forced to confront these moments, as an adult and with the support of Pattern (and hopefully Adolin). Her arc is comparable to Dalinar's in OB in that respect.

We don't know why or how she was able to progress so quickly as a child. It may be that she is "special" in some way. Pattern has implied that she was selected by the Cryptics, so presumably they had some sort of criteria they were working with. I expect that we will continue to learn about her past in RoW, now that her brothers are with her.

[Ghanderflaffle]

While I do prefer Kaladin, Shallan isn’t the worst character in the books. I have multiple types of “hate” for Sanderson's characters. There's the ones I simply can’t stand, the ones who acted in a certain way that makes me hate them (Amaram, Sadeas, Moash, etc.) but I wouldn’t actually change what they did because it's what makes a good book, and the characters I just don’t get (not many, but a couple). I do wish that I liked Shallan better because she would be a perfect cosplay opportunity for me (other than the fact that I am a darkeyes), but she still is a good character, if not specifically for you, she is still well-written.

I'm only going to do one or two counterpoints, but I do have a couple. 
 

Spoiler

While Kaladin had to deal with petty lighteyes in Roshone, Shallan had to deal with her worse than petty father who, though not hurting her, hurt others in her stead where she could hear and later see the effects. 

Yes, Kaladin had to watch his squad get murdered, but Shallan murdered both of her parents in self defense and to protect her brothers. 

Both character have lost family, but for this one I do have to lean towards Kaladin

Shallan has had just as hard, if not more difficult, of a backstory as Kaladin. 

The beauty in Shallan is how she's been through all of this, and can not be completely crushed by it. By all logic, she should be just as depressed as Kaladin, but she can stay strong. I’m not saying that Kaladin is weak, but he does have a harder time dealing with all the bad stuff that happens in his life when compared to Shallan.

Edited March 27, 2020 by Ghanderflaffle
Changing quote to spoiler box.

[Channelknight Fadran]

ANGER.

Her entire character is her trying to become a better person; above her little quips! I didn't like Kaladin for awhile either until he freaking changed, like every good character should.