Comparing the military of Shardworlds to Terran countries

[DiePie]

7 hours ago, robardin said:

Well we need to set the goals here. Nukes are the proverbial (and literal) "nuclear option" - it's the scorched and salted earth option. Is the goal here to subdue and conquer, to leave the region and the people already there usable as resources afterward, or to eliminate as a threat, i.e., creating a barren buffer zone of death is an acceptable outcome?

I was thinking that the point would be to occupy the planet, not to destroy it... Otherwise it would be too easy to just create a nuclear winter and call it a day

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

 

Quote

me, i was assuming that a continent was just popped into the middle of roshar ocean, in which case icbm are available

I was assuming a certain amount were ported over for attack. Guess gotta wait for DiePie to ring in. 

I originally didn't think too much about that, though I would say, assume that there is a Portal that was opened by choice to any of these worlds, in this case Roshar. The Portal wouldn't be able to move at will, but the Terrans would be able to create a well-fortified breachhead if they need to for any reason, like either in an Isolated location or since we're talking about a modern Terran force, Blitzkrieg tactics to quickly occupy an area large enough to support supply lines, troop movements, etc.

 

The scenario I imagined would probably give them enough time to set up calibrated ICBMs before their opponents would stop them. But like I said, I imagined the goal would be an occupation, not turning Roshar into Ashyn II.

[Bigmikey357]

Occupation is always more difficult than annihilation. And a portal leading back to Terra is going to be problematic,  especially in Roshar's case.  Of all the Cosmere planets they best understand the scientific method, physics,  chemistry, energy transference and the interaction of forces.  Assuming the Rosharan people don't succumb to disease they have the most to gain from a look see of our scientific texts,  as well as ways to employ them that would devastate any force coming to bear against them. How much faster does fabrial tech develop with about 500 years of physics knowledge injected into the public consciousness? If Jasnah got ahold to our texts they'd be creating H-bombs within the month to throw against our beachhead. 

A similar issue comes with Scadrial, although their development would likely lean towards metallurgy and ballistics. But they don't yet have mass production in their toolbox. Terra would be foolish to give them time to acquire it. 

[+robardin]

47 minutes ago, DiePie said:

The scenario I imagined would probably give them enough time to set up calibrated ICBMs before their opponents would stop them. But like I said, I imagined the goal would be an occupation, not turning Roshar into Ashyn II.

Well there's no need to interfere or invade Roshar at all, if that were the goal, as Honor himself seemed to think that's where things were headed there anyway!

[Irishlawyer]

We also don't know the full extent of Nalthis' military might, outside of Hallandren & Idris.  Vasher does make some offhand references to interesting uses of Awakening in other nations (using ropes as siege engines, to launch stones, for example); and most societies on Nalthis would probably have Awakeners be prevalent just enough to matter in battle.

[Pathfinder]

20 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The Lightweaver problem is the same as the Kandra problem although to a lesser degree.  If we know that people can perfectly mimic others it's going to be difficult to detect them.  Our strategies aren't foolproof but we are trained.  For instance,  we are trained in something called  OPSEC, or operations security.  What that means is basically we aren't just slinging information around.  You know as much as you need to know to do whatever your task is. And you don't poke around trying to get information you don't need. You don't speak about your mission in public places or detail to others what your mission is or when it's supposed to take place. And everyone watches each other for changes in behavior.  It's amazing how many mundane spies are caught in this manner. I assume it's going to catch a few supernatural spies as well but of course not foolproof.  Basically,  the better the Lightweaver the less mistakes they'll make, therefore the harder they will be to catch.  And of course we have no defense at all from anything coming from the CR.

Thank you for the insight! The idea that I envisioned in my head would be to send spren to fully map out the layout, and spy on any information that they could from listening in. For information that would require hands to access (files in cabinets, and on computers), would be via lightweaver, using all the information gleaned from the spren. To me that would include the layout of the compound, staff routines and patrols, and private meetings (like what happened to Dalinar and Co due to Malata's spren Spark). 

18 hours ago, DiePie said:

I was thinking that the point would be to occupy the planet, not to destroy it... Otherwise it would be too easy to just create a nuclear winter and call it a day

I originally didn't think too much about that, though I would say, assume that there is a Portal that was opened by choice to any of these worlds, in this case Roshar. The Portal wouldn't be able to move at will, but the Terrans would be able to create a well-fortified breachhead if they need to for any reason, like either in an Isolated location or since we're talking about a modern Terran force, Blitzkrieg tactics to quickly occupy an area large enough to support supply lines, troop movements, etc.

 

The scenario I imagined would probably give them enough time to set up calibrated ICBMs before their opponents would stop them. But like I said, I imagined the goal would be an occupation, not turning Roshar into Ashyn II.

So I did a little further digging regarding ICBMs. Many liquid fueled ICMBs can not be kept fueled all the time as the cryogenic fuel liquid oxygen boils off and causes ice formation, resulting in fueling the rocket being necessary right before launch. There is a preference for Silo protected missiles for two reasons:

 

1. The procedure of fueling the rocket prior to launch was a significant operational delay and might allow the missiles to be destroyed by the enemy prior to use

2. The silo would also hide and protect fueling operations underground. 

 

This leads for me to some issues regarding Silo use on Roshar.

 

1. The "Terrans" (as you are referring to them), would need drilling equipment to get through crem and construct these silos. I think this would take a significant amount of time.

2. Highstorms not only cause issues regarding the flying of the nuclear weapons, but also the construction and maintenance of the silos. Even in "normal" rainstorm, crem is deposited, and if not cleared away quickly, it will harden and become fresh stone. The aperture that opens and closes where the nuke will be exiting would need constant maintenance for example for this reason. Nonetheless the initial construction being regularly flooded from rains, and highstorms. 

 

So without attracting/repelling fabrials (as we see with Navani using for water to keep the bows dry), and soulcasting/cohesion (to move large amounts of crem quickly and efficiently), i think it will be a rather large and difficult undertaking for Team Terran to construct underground missile silos. I think the same would stand for even above ground silos, because they would have to survive being buffeted by highstorms, and again crem would need to be cleaned away so the structural integrity wouldn't be over weighed and collapse. 

TLDR Basically I am having trouble finding a way that nukes could be brought over, housed securely, and fired effectively without causing problems at every stage. 

17 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Occupation is always more difficult than annihilation. And a portal leading back to Terra is going to be problematic,  especially in Roshar's case.  Of all the Cosmere planets they best understand the scientific method, physics,  chemistry, energy transference and the interaction of forces.  Assuming the Rosharan people don't succumb to disease they have the most to gain from a look see of our scientific texts,  as well as ways to employ them that would devastate any force coming to bear against them. How much faster does fabrial tech develop with about 500 years of physics knowledge injected into the public consciousness? If Jasnah got ahold to our texts they'd be creating H-bombs within the month to throw against our beachhead. 

A similar issue comes with Scadrial, although their development would likely lean towards metallurgy and ballistics. But they don't yet have mass production in their toolbox. Terra would be foolish to give them time to acquire it. 

Good points. Further windrunners could fly in (much more maneuverable and capable than our airforce in handling highstorms) and drop such bombs via gravity (not the surge, as in the delivery system is just dropping it from high up). The surges and fabrials coupled with having lived on the planet for ages definitely gives Roshar an advantage in that regards in my opinion. They live their lives by the highstorms. The Terran do not. 

9 hours ago, Irishlawyer said:

We also don't know the full extent of Nalthis' military might, outside of Hallandren & Idris.  Vasher does make some offhand references to interesting uses of Awakening in other nations (using ropes as siege engines, to launch stones, for example); and most societies on Nalthis would probably have Awakeners be prevalent just enough to matter in battle.

Hmmmm. even Kalad's Phantoms would have problems with sustained gun fire and tanks. Though could Nalthis potentially make armored Kalad's Phantoms? Further since the Phantoms can hold some skill from when they were living, if the people were taught to use fire arms, maybe they could use it? Though a large part of this is basically finding a way to get the Terran technology, and use it against them. Which would be a tall order in the beginning. 

[Frustration]

A Mesoamerican army could cause some devastation to Era one Scandrial. barring a certain fullborn's intervention

[Bigmikey357]

I think if we're using any premodern Terran army in our scenario I don't believe we should pit them against an entire Shardworld. Cosmere planets are not monolithic and most of the terrestrial armies we could mention never conquered the entire world. The Mongols and the Romans came damnation close so they'd get a mention but nobody without nukes has a puncher's chance of toppling an entire planet in the Cosmere. So let's say, just for an example,  pit the Mongols against Azir, see what we get from there. Imo that also takes off the table various nuclear options on the Cosmere side. So no Rashek or Kelsier breaking the flow, no flipping Dawnshard or Heralds, the Evil doesn't make an appearance on Threnody.  The Elantrians are a nuclear option onto themselves,  so maybe the Terrans could fight the Rose Empire or something. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by Bigmikey357

[Frustration]

We hit day side Taldin with Egypt, Rose Empire with Rome, All of Elendel Basin with United States Military(could probably take all of Era 2 Scandrial if I'm honest) Shinovar with Hanable of Carthage, and Iriad with Alexander the great.

Edited March 12, 2020 by Booknerd

[Pathfinder]

27 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

We hit day side Taldin with Egypt,

I think this would still favor Taldain. Its their home turf, and a sandmaster's entire power system is dependent on being on their home turf lol. 

27 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

 Rose Empire with Rome,

Don't know what the Rose Empire's military looks like, and what magics if any that they employ. If we knew they included blood sealers, then the use of skeletals could help, but the Rose Empire seems to be disdainful of the magic. So I wouldn't imagine them including skeletals in their primary military. 

27 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

All of Elendel Basin with United States Military(could probably take all of Era 2 Scandrial if I'm honest)

Assuming modern military with fighter planes, tanks and so on, I agree. Coinshots can push on metal, but unless they are a twinborn like Wax, or a fullborn, they aren't moving tanks an inch. 

27 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Shinovar with Hanable of Carthage,

Not sure about this one. Shinovar still has most of the honorblades. That alone I could see turning the battle in their favor. 

27 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

and Iriad with Alexander the great.

You mean the Iriali? I would say same deal as the Rose Empire and Rome. Don't know the Iri military might, and what if any magic they would employ. I am assuming you are mentioning them as they currently are, and not including radiants?

[Frustration]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

Not sure about this one. Shinovar still has most of the honorblades. That alone I could see turning the battle in their favor. 

You mean the Iriali? I would say same deal as the Rose Empire and Rome. Don't know the Iri military might, and what if any magic they would employ. I am assuming you are mentioning them as they currently are, and not including radiants?

1. horses won't go near elephants

2. I'm talking about the Warbreaker nation I don't have the book right now forgive my spelling

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

1. horses won't go near elephants

With the honorblades, I do not think horses would need to go near elephants.

5 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

2. I'm talking about the Warbreaker nation I don't have the book right now forgive my spelling

Ah, been awhile since I have read it, so I do not recall that nation at this time. 

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

With the honorblades, I do not think horses would need to go near elephants.

Ah, been awhile since I have read it, so I do not recall that nation at this time. 

Siri's home.

[Pathfinder]

29 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Siri's home.

Ah! Idris! I think in that case Alexander the Great would win because I do not recall anything unique regarding Idris that would make them more combat effective. 

[Dunkum]

35 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ah! Idris! I think in that case Alexander the Great would win because I do not recall anything unique regarding Idris that would make them more combat effective. 

if anything, their disdain for awakening means that they won't even have the potential boost of their world's magic system to help them.  Idris probably isn't any harder to conquer than a similarly sized Earth nation.