Normal worlds vs Shardworlds

[SwordNimiForPresident]

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I don't target. Saturation bombardment and traps. I may have to burn a continent. So be it.

There aren’t enough nukes in existence to “burn a continent”. The “vaporization zone” of even our most powerful nukes aren’t all that big when talking on planetary scale. Most of the deaths happen from radiation poisoning and internal thermal burns. Neither of those things presents a problem to a gold compounder.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

56 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Good suggestion. A few thousand megatons of TNT equivalent should do that.

The true power of a whole planet with nuclear knowledge if it were really turned towards destruction is horrifying.

At most that would create a crater. Even if that did alter the shape of Aons, it would be a simple matter of adding a dot.

[+Oltux72]

9 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

There aren’t enough nukes in existence to “burn a continent”. The “vaporization zone” of even our most powerful nukes aren’t all that big when talking on planetary scale. Most of the deaths happen from radiation poisoning and internal thermal burns. Neither of those things presents a problem to a gold compounder.

Ehm. A Fullborn is awesome with a supply of metals. Without metals he is a feruchemist. And he is not going to carry a steel mill on his back. Hence at some point he has to go to a small (and reducible) number of places. I will go for those. If the continent has forests it will burn, literally. Otherwise I am reduced to devastating a continent.

And we are talking a war situation here. At the peak of the arms race we made thousands of warheads per year. Now it depends on how much time you give our Earth, but if it is more than a few years, the arsenal will be horrible.

11 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

At most that would create a crater. Even if that did alter the shape of Aons, it would be a simple matter of adding a dot.

First you need to locate that dot. Then add it. Before you die.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

15 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Ehm. A Fullborn is awesome with a supply of metals. Without metals he is a feruchemist. And he is not going to carry a steel mill on his back. Hence at some point he has to go to a small (and reducible) number of places. I will go for those. If the continent has forests it will burn, literally. Otherwise I am reduced to devastating a continent.

And we are talking a war situation here. At the peak of the arms race we made thousands of warheads per year. Now it depends on how much time you give our Earth, but if it is more than a few years, the arsenal will be horrible.

First you need to locate that dot. Then add it. Before you die.

So to be clear, you’re going to invent a device that will tell exactly where all of the burnable metal on the planet is, and the nuke those places. Good plan, though it does have the small snag of being completely and comically impossible.

Why would they allow us time to stockpile weapons? They would just send their demigod to kill us all.

For Elantris, how hard is it to locate a giant crater where your city used to be? Even if it did break Aons, it wouldn’t kill the Elantians because they would just revert to Reod era Elantriants. I guess you’re assuming that you will somehow catch all of them in the vaporization zone? Again, good plan. Good luck pulling it off.

[king of nowhere]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I don't target. Saturation bombardment and traps. I may have to burn a continent. So be it.

considering what happened to scadrial, it's much better to burn a continent by self-nuking than to let tlr win. the death count will be even much lower.

[+Oltux72]

9 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

So to be clear, you’re going to invent a device that will tell exactly where all of the burnable metal on the planet is, and the nuke those places. Good plan, though it does have the small snag of being completely and comically impossible.

It is not just any metal. That would be impractical. They have specialised manufacturers of extremely pure alloys and pure metals. You cannot use a village blacksmith, except maybe for some steel, iron & copper. Hence targeting everything urban is a viable tactic.

[Friendshipspren]

14 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

How exactly are you planing on targeting this person with your weapons? They move faster than sight and might even be able to move faster than your hypothetical hypersonic nukes. Additionally, those nukes have metal components and could easy be ripped to shreds by a Fullborn.

The element of surprise. He might move fast but I'm sure a hypersonic missile would still take him by surprise. In the few scant seconds he might take to get over the shock it might be too late.

Well easy , wrap them up in aluminum or some alloy . Use ceramics . It doesn't even have to hit him on his head , it only needs to get a km within range and the resulting fireball will still vaporize him.

 

14 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

For the first part about Scadrial, I would never use Rashek as an example. He is grossly incompetent. Easily the worst possible candidate for an power, let alone Fullborn status. Secondly, your idea seems to center on the idea of a surprise attack, so where did we get all this intel that lets us know exactly where we should be attacking? Thirdly, wtf prompted us to launch apocalypse level surprise attack against another civilization? Fourth, how did one of our nuclear powers manage to get hypersonic nuclear weapons into space without prompting nuclear destruction of our own planet?

As to nuking Elantris, destroying the city would have zero impact on the underlying Aon. It was drawn by Elantrians and can only be broken by them (or a massive change in the shape of Arelon, the Gradget of Dakhor, or maybe someone burning chromium). Wiping away an Aon does not destroy it.

Well good luck finding any other fullborn.  Rashek is the only one u got. 

 

Seriously. The entire scenario is supposed to be hypothetical. U don't really think Scadrial exists do u ? U are talking as if we are discussing a real life invasion. 

We know it since we read about it in the books. 

We are attacking it cause it's a fun scenario to imagine. 

Let's say north Korean scientists discovered how to open a wormhole into any of the Cosmere planets . It's a hypothetical scenario , what else am I supposed to say ???

Really one or  a few leechers can take down the forcefield but not a Nuke. 

I know it can be drawn by them. But if you wipe out the city. I'm sure the investiture will collapse. Elantris was built and shaped specifically to harness the dor. That's why an Elantrian can only be strong at elantris and not anywhere else in arelon or elsewhere. That's why throughout thier history . They haven't strayed beyond the city walls much. 

Even if that wasn't the original case,  by now it is. You destroy enough of elantris. Vaporize it. Take our the shape of the city off the surface of sel. And any surviving Elantrians will turn to hoed. Supposing any survive. And this time I don't know if u can repair it just by changing the shape of the aon .

Lot of difference between some desolate corner of arelon and it's heart. 

Even if the hoed bounce back. They will be few and can be taken down. At high cost maybe. But ain't impossible. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by PrinceGenocide
Some polishing

[SwordNimiForPresident]

5 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The element of surprise. He might move fast but I'm sure a hypersonic missile would still take him by surprise. In the few scant seconds he might take to get over the shock it might be too late.

Well easy , wrap them up in aluminum or some alloy . Use ceramics . It doesn't even have to hit him on his head , it only needs to get a km within range and the resulting fireball will still vaporize him.

 

Well good luck finding any other fullborn.  Rashek is the only one u got. 

 

Seriously. The entire scenario is supposed to be hypothetical. U don't really think Scadrial exists do u ? U are talking as if we are discussing a real life invasion. 

We know it since we read about it in the books. 

We are attacking it cause it's a fun scenario to imagine. 

Let's say north Korean scientists discovered how to open a wormhole into any of the Cosmere planets . It's a hypothetical scenario , what else am I supposed to say ???

In order to get the element of surprise you would need real time intel on this individuals location. It’s just not believable. Especially for the only confirmed Fullborn that is currently alive in the Cosmere.

Being hypersonic would necessitate ceramics for the outside of the missile. If you can invent a rocket engine that doesn’t contain any metal though, there is probably a Nobel prize in it for you.

Rashek is not the only Fullborn. There’s Kelsier, literally anyone holding the Bands of Morning, maybe Spook, and Marsh, who is close enough that he gets a T-shirt.

As for the rest, my understanding was that it was our world as it is now plus FTL vs the Cosmere. Not Starfleet vs the Cosmere, not the United Nations of Earth vs the Cosmere and not the Defiant vs the Cosmere.

North Korea doesn’t have hypersonic weapons.

5 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Really one or  a few leechers can take down the forcefield but not a Nuke. 

I know it can be drawn by them. But if you wipe out the city. I'm sure the investiture will collapse. Elantris was built and shaped specifically to harness the dor. That's why an Elantrian can only be strong at elantris and not anywhere else in arelon or elsewhere. That's why throughout thier history . They haven't strayed beyond the city walls much. 

Even if that wasn't the original case,  by now it is. You destroy enough of elantris. Vaporize it. Take our the shape of the city off the surface of sel. And any surviving Elantrians will turn to hoed. Supposing any survive. And this time I don't know if u can repair it just by changing the shape of the aon .

Lot of difference between some desolate corner of arelon and it's heart. 

Even if the hoed bounce back. They will be few and can be taken down. At high cost maybe. But ain't impossible. 

Yes, one MAGIC user who is capable of blocking Investiture should be able to disrupt an Aon, though on as large as Elantris may be beyond their scope. A completely non magical nuclear weapon will have absolutely zero impact on the magic.

The city was built in the shape of the Aon. The Aon can be drawn on anything, the ground, a city wall, dust, air or even vacuum I imagine. Destroying the city will destroy the city. Without magic, you cannot destroy the Aon.

I don’t know where you got the information that they don’t go outside the city. We see almost the entire population go to Teod to fight a battle. I imagine many of them will view the city as a prison and want to spend time away from it from time to time. Either way, catching all of them in the vaporization zone seems like a pipe dream.

The difference between Arelon and Elantris is that there’s a big Aon drawn on Elantris, and a city built in the same shape.

Why would the Elantians be Hoed? They would simply revert to their “zombie” selves for as long as it took one of them to place a dot at the right spot in the Elantris crater.

edit: Speaking craters, I encourage you to google the Sedan Crater. At 390 meters it is the largest one in the United States caused by a nuclear bomb. It is nowhere near large enough to change the shape of the region in which it resides. Additionally, it is the result of a ground detonation. You normally air burst nuclear weapons to maximize their effectiveness. The do not leave craters when detonated in this way. Essentially your stuck with blowing it up on the ground in hopes of destroying Aon Dor (effectively impossible given the scale) and significantly reducing the impact of the bomb, or air bursting it and leaving all of the Elantrians alive and at full power.

Edited March 9, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Truthless of Shinovar]

Just wanted to point out, Earth has CRAZY amounts of nukes. If we decided we wanted to, we could literally blow up any planet or make it so desolate and warped that it would be uninhabitable. Nuclear winters and insane amounts of radiation ensure that sooner or later you’re going to run out of food or die of radiation, even if you store up health or nutrition. Regardless of whether or not the rest of the military could succeed against a campaign against Scadrial, Roshar, Elantris, etc., nukes will win every time. 
 

Edit: Can we change the title to Earth vs. Shard Worlds?

Edited March 9, 2020 by Truthless of Shinovar

[SwordNimiForPresident]

18 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Just wanted to point out, Earth has CRAZY amounts of nukes. If we decided we wanted to, we could literally blow up any planet or make it so desolate and warped that it would be uninhabitable.

This is not correct. A quick google will tell you that there are approximately 3750 active nuclear weapons on Earth. While this is certainly enough to end our civilization, it is not enough to have any real impact on the geography of our world. Even a hypothetical nuclear winter wouldn’t hold a candle to the bonfire of volcanic or impact event winters.

18 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Nuclear winters and insane amounts of radiation ensure that sooner or later you’re going to run out of food or die of radiation, even if you store up health or nutrition.

Why would lack of food or radiation harm an Elantian or Fullborn?Elantrians do not require food and can heal from nearly any injury without even making an Aon. Fullborn do not require food either. All they would need is gold and cadmium. If it’s Kelsier we’re talking about, he doesn’t even need that. You literally can’t kill him. If you destroy his body he will just return to the Cognitive realm and plot your demise.

No matter what, we lose.

Edited March 9, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[DiePie]

8 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Why would lack of food or radiation harm an Elantian or Fullborn?Elantrians do not require food and can heal from nearly any injury without even making an Aon. Fullborn do not require food either. All they would need is gold and cadmium. If it’s Kelsier we’re talking about, he doesn’t even need that. You literally can’t kill him. If you destroy his body he will just return to the Cognitive realm and plot your demise.

No matter what, we lose.

I have a better Idea about defeating Elantris, 10 million highly trained and heavily armed Soldiers. Lets say that Elantris gets to a population of about 10,000 by the time the invasion begins, If the average Elantrian can kill, say, 100 soldiers before being hit by a bullet or falling to fatigue, we're still left with 9 million soldiers. Not only is that not all of the world's military might (the US could supply that on its own), what we did send in is mostly still intact, and pure infantry nevertheless. If we need to, we can bunker down and make their life worse than that of a WW1 soldier with rockets and artillery. Let's see how they deal with an endless horde of soldiers coming in from every direction with PTSD (Shell Shock) and sleep deprivation while having to constantly watch for artillery shells or missiles/bombs. While trying to neutralize AonDor is stupid, nuking Elantris would still kill 99% of all of the AonDor users, while completely decimating their command structure.

Let's say that we have to face 3 Fullborn fighting in Scadrial (Kelsier, Marsh, and some random person holding the Bands of Mourning). How long can they fight before it starts to get to them? They would still have to store up feruchemical powers (or maybe not depending on how much more they know about the nature of Identity, but that only means that it takes longer to kill them), even with Fullborn, the Scadrian army would collapse nearly immediately (anything they would scratch up would disintegrate against relatively well trained and well-armed Terran soldiers), which would leave the Fullborn almost completely alone. So how long would it take before the effects of a long, drawn-out war get to them? Perhaps they could burn their own identity to keep themselves sane, but they would have to stop and store it sometimes. How long before one of them snaps or makes a mistake and gets killed from a well-placed nuke or napalm blast? Do we know how much gold Scadrial has? Because in a drawn out conflict with 3 fullburn burning gold nearly 24/7 (only stopping to refuel metals), the Scadrians may be at risk of running out, at which point it only takes 1 well placed (or lucky) aluminum bullet to kill them. 

What I'm trying to say is that, yes, in a short conflict with limited numbers magic powers in Cosmere give individuals enough power to decimate a small Terran force. However, in a drawn-out war of attrition (which I guess isn't the most fun scenario to imagine), Terran numbers (and ability to abuse those individuals via. psychological warfare) would eventually wear down any resistance.

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by DiePie
was stupid

[SwordNimiForPresident]

14 minutes ago, DiePie said:

I have a better Idea about defeating Elantris, 10 million highly trained and heavily armed Soldiers. Lets say that Elantris gets to a population of about 10,000 by the time the invasion begins, If the average Elantrian can kill, say, 100 soldiers before being hit by a bullet or falling to fatigue, we're still left with 9 million soldiers. Not only is that not all of the world's military might (the US could supply that on its own), what we did send in is mostly still intact, and pure infantry nevertheless. If we need to, we can bunker down and make their life worse than that of a WW1 soldier with rockets and artillery. Let's see how they deal with an endless horde of soldiers coming in from every direction with PTSD (Shell Shock) and sleep deprivation while having to constantly watch for artillery shells or missiles/bombs. While trying to neutralize AonDor is stupid, nuking Elantris would still kill 99% of all of the AonDor users, while completely decimating their command structure.

A single Elantrian could kill a limitless number of human soldiers. The solders could not harm the Elantrians in a meaningful way. As I previously established, nuking Elantris would probably not kill any of the Aon Dor users, excluding if one somehow managed to be outside and close enough to the epicenter to be vaporized. Anything less than that can not kill them. They have an almost unlimited ability to heal passively.

14 minutes ago, DiePie said:

Let's say that we have to face 3 Fullborn fighting in Scadrial (Kelsier, Marsh, and some random person holding the Bands of Mourning). How long can they fight before it starts to get to them? They would still have to store up feruchemical powers (or maybe not depending on how much more they know about the nature of Identity, but that only means that it takes longer to kill them), even with Fullborn, the Scadrian army would collapse nearly immediately (anything they would scratch up would disintegrate against relatively well trained and well-armed Terran soldiers), which would leave the Fullborn almost completely alone. So how long would it take before the effects of a long, drawn-out war get to them? Perhaps they could burn their own identity to keep themselves sane, but they would have to stop and store it sometimes. How long before one of them snaps or makes a mistake and gets killed from a well-placed nuke or napalm blast? Do we know how much gold Scadrial has? Because in a drawn out conflict with 3 fullburn burning gold nearly 24/7 (only stopping to refuel metals), the Scadrians may be at risk of running out, at which point it only takes 1 well placed (or lucky) aluminum bullet to kill them.

They can simply tap electrum if the trauma of killing gets to them (not that they would need to, Marsh and Kelsier have seen some seriously messed up stuff). They literally never need to store Feruchemical powers, they are compounders. I can't actually imagine any of them ever needing to tap gold. They could completely dismantle our armies with allomantic steel and duralumin. One push and thousands of soldiers are killed. Add to this that they can move between groups at the speed of compounded steel and it is unlikely that our soldiers would ever even encounter theirs before being killed by something that they cant see. Again, they wouldn't even need to worry about gold because our armies would be dead almost the instant they came into conflict with Scadrial's protectors.

14 minutes ago, DiePie said:

What I'm trying to say is that, yes, in a short conflict with limited numbers magic powers in Cosmere give individuals enough power to decimate a small Terran force. However, in a drawn-out war of attrition (which I guess isn't the most fun scenario to imagine), Terran numbers (and ability to abuse those individuals via. psychological warfare) would eventually wear down any resistance.

For the reasons I have already listed, this is not an accurate depiction of the conflict. There would be no drawn out war of attrition. A few of their most powerful people would kill our entire force in minutes. As I said in my original response, a single Elantrian or Fullborn could likely drive our entire species to extinction in a matter of days.

Edited March 10, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[NameIess]

18 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

A single Elantrian could kill a limitless number of human soldiers. The solders could not harm the Elantrians in a meaningful way. As I previously established, nuking Elantris would probably not kill any of the Aon Dor users, excluding if one somehow managed to be outside and close enough to the epicenter to be vaporized. Anything less than that can not kill them. They have an almost unlimited ability to heal passively.

A nuke would kill all or most the Elantrians in it's blast radius. To get a shield over the entire city, you would have to draw a massive aon. There is no way to do this in the amount of time you would have before the nuke hit.

22 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

They can simply tap electrum if the trauma of killing gets to them (not that they would need to, Marsh and Kelsier have seen some seriously messed up stuff). They literally never need to store Feruchemical powers, they are compounders. I can't actually imagine any of them ever needing to tap gold. They could completely dismantle our armies with allomantic steel and duralumin. One push and thousands of soldiers are killed. Add to this that they can move between groups at the speed of compounded steel and it is unlikely that our soldiers would ever even encounter theirs before being killed by something that they cant see. Again, they wouldn't even need to worry about gold because our armies would be dead almost the instant they came into conflict with Scadrial's protectors.

A few hundred nukes, and the entire planet of Scadrial becomes uninhabitable. The Fullborn might survive, but the rest of the population wouldn't. The Fullborn would eventually run out of metals to compound with and die, unless they figured out how to get large amounts of gold to compound with.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

A nuke would kill all or most the Elantrians in it's blast radius. To get a shield over the entire city, you would have to draw a massive aon. There is no way to do this in the amount of time you would have before the nuke hit.

I think you are missunderstanding how nuclear weapons work. There is a very small space directly beneath where it is detonated where people that are out doors could be vaporized. The rest of the death is due to radiation burns/poisoning and building collapse/fires. None of those things pose even a minor threat to an Elantrian. They wouldn't need any Aons to survive, their passive ability to heal would be way more than enough. All you would succeed in doing is killing their friends and loved ones, though even then it would only be the ones that died before the Elantrians could heal them. Really all you would be doing is making the most powerful non Shard magic users in the Cosmere extremely angry. That an all of the cosmetic damage to the city.

10 minutes ago, Nameless said:

A few hundred nukes, and the entire planet of Scadrial becomes uninhabitable. The Fullborn might survive, but the rest of the population wouldn't. The Fullborn would eventually run out of metals to compound with and die, unless they figured out how to get large amounts of gold to compound with.

If you killed all of the people, then all of their stuff would just being lying around for the Fullborns to use, including any metal they owned. Again, you've succeeded in provoking one of the most power beings in the Cosmere into driving your species to extinction.

Edited March 10, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Truthless of Shinovar]

 

Quote

 

Questioner (paraphrased)

[Something about whether Elantrians are immortal or long-lived] 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Elantrians have no physical limitations on their lifespan. The power will sustain them, but it's emotionally and mentally exhausting to be an Elantrian, so as far as immortality goes it's actually harder to be an Elantrian than other forms of immortality that exist in the cosmere.

GollanczFest London (Oct. 17, 2015)

 

 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, and yes, Elantrians can go unconscious. They can fall asleep, after all. The Elantrian brain is the one organ that continues to work very similarly to the way it did before the Shaod. So, taking a large amount of trauma can make it black out. The Elantrian won't remain unconscious forever–but when he wakes up, the actual physical damage will be there. That's why Raoden loses his sense of balance and everything gets fuzzy.

Elantris Annotations (March 28, 2006)

 

Quote

mweaver9280

How fast could a steel/steel Twinborn move?

Brandon Sanderson

You'd hit physical limits eventually. While the Metallurgic arts generally enhanced the body to deal with the powers granted, things like air resistance would hold you back--perhaps even kill you--if you weren't careful.

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 16, 2013)

 

Quote

Kaymyth

We know that compounding, if you do it too much, it has permanent effects on a person.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Kaymyth

Compounding for extending stretches, can it have some sort of effect similar to pewter drag, depending on the metal?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. I could say, I would say yes to that.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

Quote

Steeldancer

So if a steel compounder became an Edgedancer... 

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, here we go. [Audience laughs]

Steeldancer

If a steel compounder became an Edgedancer, how fast could they go?

Brandon Sanderson

[Dramatic sigh] They could go quite fast. They are not going to ever reach superhero levels of bending reality for speed. So, I will say quick, but not that quick. We aren't outracing an atom bomb, as the Flash periodically does. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

My friend wants to know how fast steel Compounders could possibly go, can they run up walls or over water like the Flash?

Blightsong (paraphrased)

*jokingly* Can they run through time?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Steelrunners can resist a lot things due to the power, like they can withstand the Gs they are out through, but they can't ignore wind resistance and friction. They will burn up if they start running too quickly.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

A couple of relevant WoBs, make of them what you will

Edit: And a quote from the Coppermind, "Elantrians heal quickly and can survive fatal injuries, such as decapitation.^[11] They are practically immortal, but being an Elantrian is emotionally and mentally exhausting and is one of the hardest forms of immortality that exist in the cosmere.^[12] They have superior strength and speed.^[3] Elantrians can still die of natural causes if left untreated."

Edited March 10, 2020 by Truthless of Shinovar

[SwordNimiForPresident]

4 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

A couple of relevant WoBs, make of them what you will

And a quote from the Coppermind, "Elantrians heal quickly and can survive fatal injuries, such as decapitation"

I never implied that a steelrunner could outrun a nuclear explosion, simply outrun the missile. We see Paalm run fast enough that she is nothing more than a blur at multiple points in Era 2. Someone moving that fast through an army and blowing it to pieces with steel and duralumin would destroy it in seconds.

Everything in there about Elantrians only proves my point. Basically unkillable. The bit about Raoden going fuzzy was before he fixed AonDor.

[Truthless of Shinovar]

Yeah a steelrunner could probably outrun a missile, I don't disagree with you there, just saying that if a nuke did catch them by surprise, they wouldn't be able to escape it

And yeah, but they can be killed (even by natural causes (which is where biological warfare could come in)), which in my opinion, is the entire point.

[DiePie]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

A single Elantrian could kill a limitless number of human soldiers. The solders could not harm the Elantrians in a meaningful way. As I previously established, nuking Elantris would probably not kill any of the Aon Dor users, excluding if one somehow managed to be outside and close enough to the epicenter to be vaporized. Anything less than that can not kill them. They have an almost unlimited ability to heal passively.

? I would think that a bullet to the head would kill them as fast as it would a normal person, as while they have healing though that isn't going to help them when a bullet to the brain would kill them instantly, so before they could heal.

Besides for that, they can still be killed by completely destroying it, so Nuking Elantris (We have Nukes that can completely destroy everything in a 5 Km radius) would probably kill everyone inside it, including all of the Elantrians. Or using a nice bit of Napalm to completely incinerate any Elentrian. The trick would probably only be used a few times but it would be enough (especially if used on high concentrations of Elantrians) to significantly weaken them.

 

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

They can simply tap electrum if the trauma of killing gets to them (not that they would need to, Marsh and Kelsier have seen some seriously messed up stuff). They literally never need to store Feruchemical powers, they are compounders. I can't actually imagine any of them ever needing to tap gold. They could completely dismantle our armies with allomantic steel and duralumin. One push and thousands of soldiers are killed. Add to this that they can move between groups at the speed of compounded steel and it is unlikely that our soldiers would ever even encounter theirs before being killed by something that they cant see. Again, they wouldn't even need to worry about gold because our armies would be dead almost the instant they came into conflict with Scadrial's protectors.

Lets say that your average Fullborn can Kill 500,000 people in a day, times 3 Fullborns and that is 1.5 million. First of all, killing over 500,000 people will so stuff to people (I don't care that "they've seen some serious messed up stuff", killing millions while watching yourself do it will affect a person no matter what they've seen). I would think that this is a good estimate since most modern soldiers carry primarily blunt objects (guns, canteens, maybe an extra cartridge of ammo) (or sheathed pocketknives), so a steelpush wouldn't really kill as effectively as it would during the previous era of Mistborn. Also, most modern soldiers wear bulletproof armor, so coins (or any small steelpushed item) aren't going to be as effective and no pushing on armor to knock people over. Anyways I'm getting off track here. So 1.5 million people per day, out of 7.8 billion people on earth, I am going to say that 1/10 can fight in a war, so 780 million. That's enough people to throw into our little meat grinder called Scadrial for 520 days at our current casualty rate (So, is killing 160 million people not going to have an effect on someone psychological?) So we're fighting a protracted war here.

A steelbubble wouldn't work against Aluminum bullets, so say we've got a few tons of bombs being dropped on them (remember that we would have near-complete air superiority since Scadrians don't yet know the secret to heavier than air flight), and aluminum machineguns trained on them at all times, and there are going to be hits a few times an hour-at least, so expect these fullburns to be burning Gold near constantly, and they don't seem to have a large supply on Scadrial. Let's say that each are burning 100 grams (I'm using 1 bead as a gram, and it makes sense that each of the Fullborn are burning lots of gold because they are in near-constant combat) so that's over 156 kg. by the end of the 520 days, and Gold is a rare commodity (in the Elendel basin at least, and since all 3 of our Fullborn are from there I'm assuming that's where most of the fighting will be there), so it seems safe to say that they will run out of gold to burn, at which point they die. Of course this ignores the required burning of Electrum and the adverse side effects of becoming a savant in many of these metals.

 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

4 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

Yeah a steelrunner could probably outrun a missile, I don't disagree with you there, just saying that if a nuke did catch them by surprise, they wouldn't be able to escape it

They would probably survive it with F-gold as long as they weren't directly in the vaporization zone. As we have seen with Wax, they can tap gold even when dead as long as they are still in the Cognitive realm.

5 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

And yeah, but they can be killed (even by natural causes (which is where biological warfare could come in)), which in my opinion, is the entire point.

I'm not sure how you came to that conclusion. In your own post you note that they can survive "fatal injuries".

[Truthless of Shinovar]

"Elantrians can still die of natural causes if left untreated." (emphasis added)

[SwordNimiForPresident]

20 minutes ago, DiePie said:

? I would think that a bullet to the head would kill them as fast as it would a normal person, as while they have healing though that isn't going to help them when a bullet to the brain would kill them instantly, so before they could heal.

Besides for that, they can still be killed by completely destroying it, so Nuking Elantris (We have Nukes that can completely destroy everything in a 5 Km radius) would probably kill everyone inside it, including all of the Elantrians. Or using a nice bit of Napalm to completely incinerate any Elentrian. The trick would probably only be used a few times but it would be enough (especially if used on high concentrations of Elantrians) to significantly weaken them.

The can survive decapitation as @Truthless of Shinovar noted in his post.

We have nukes that can level buildings and kill people with radiation burns at those distances. Neither of those things would hurt an Elantrian who, as previously noted can survive nearly any injury up to and including decapitation. After the first attack they would be aware of the threat and use AonDor to eradicate any hostiles.

 

20 minutes ago, DiePie said:

Lets say that your average Fullborn can Kill 500,000 people in a day, times 3 Fullborns and that is 1.5 million. First of all, killing over 500,000 people will so stuff to people (I don't care that "they've seen some serious messed up stuff", killing millions while watching yourself do it will affect a person no matter what they've seen). I would think that this is a good estimate since most modern soldiers carry primarily blunt objects (guns, canteens, maybe an extra cartridge of ammo) (or sheathed pocketknives), so a steelpush wouldn't really kill as effectively as it would during the previous era of Mistborn. Also, most modern soldiers wear bulletproof armor, so coins (or any small steelpushed item) aren't going to be as effective and no pushing on armor to knock people over. Anyways I'm getting off track here. So 1.5 million people per day, out of 7.8 billion people on earth, I am going to say that 1/10 can fight in a war, so 780 million. That's enough people to throw into our little meat grinder called Scadrial for 520 days at our current casualty rate (So, is killing 160 million people not going to have an effect on someone psychological?) So we're fighting a protracted war here.

A steelbubble wouldn't work against Aluminum bullets, so say we've got a few tons of bombs being dropped on them (remember that we would have near-complete air superiority since Scadrians don't yet know the secret to heavier than air flight), and aluminum machineguns trained on them at all times, and there are going to be hits a few times an hour-at least, so expect these fullburns to be burning Gold near constantly, and they don't seem to have a large supply on Scadrial. Let's say that each are burning 100 grams (I'm using 1 bead as a gram, and it makes sense that each of the Fullborn are burning lots of gold because they are in near-constant combat) so that's over 156 kg. by the end of the 520 days, and Gold is a rare commodity (in the Elendel basin at least, and since all 3 of our Fullborn are from there I'm assuming that's where most of the fighting will be there), so it seems safe to say that they will run out of gold to burn, at which point they die. Of course this ignores the required burning of Electrum and the adverse side effects of becoming a savant in many of these metals.

 

I have no way to estimate how many people a Fullborn could kill in a day, there are to many variables. It depends on how you arrange them and what they are wearing. As for the soldiers, our troops are kind enough to wear little metal chains around their necks with a pair of stamped metal tags hanging right over their hearts. A duralumin powered push in the middle of a formation would launch two metal projectiles through everyone's heart, and decapitate them.

Again, the Fullborns would not need to burn gold, as we have no way to target them with our weapons. They move faster than human eyes are capable of processing.

Air superiority last for exactly as long as it takes a Fullborn to rip your entire airforce out of the sky with double iron and duralumin.

As I have pointed out on several occasions, they would not need gold. If they did, they idea that they could use an entire planets supply within a human lifetime is ridiculous.

As to becoming a savant, they would really only be burning metals in short bursts to kill our armies. Everything else would be pre stored attributes that any compounder would have simply by virtue of their arts. If for some reason they needed to refill a metalmind, it would take a very small amount of metal to do it.

 

 

edit: I have no idea why this double posted. I'm not sure how to remove it. Mods plez halp.

Edited March 10, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[SwordNimiForPresident]

16 minutes ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

"Elantrians can still die of natural causes if left untreated." (emphasis added)

He is referring to Galadon's father, who died of hearth failure if memory serves. He effectively decided to stop living. I imagine it has to do with the whole "Being an Elantrian is harder" thing. He is not saying that they are susceptible to disease and other mundane injuries, hence the whole "surviving decapitation" thing.

Edited March 10, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Truthless of Shinovar]

*shrugs* like I said, make of it what you will, but personally, I think that an Elantrian can still be killed.

I like your profile pic by the way!

[Bigmikey357]

With the use of nuclear and biological weapons the only thing that allows the Cosmere to survive a modern army is Shardic intervention.  

Maybe we can't kill Elantris with nukes. That's a debatable topic but let's say we can't.  No one else is protected and the Elantrian cannot venture far from their power generating city.  If we were to make the rest of the planet uninhabitable and kill all the people that could have been taken by the sheod then you basically have 10,000 Elantrians, a glowing city, and a planet with a barely surviving poisonous atmosphere. So they get pissed off. So what? They can't hit us at home in retaliation. 

The Fullborn problem is a bit different.  If I commanded the Terran forces I'm playing keep away.  Marching up to Kredik Shaw with a massive army is suicide. Facing Fullborn I'm making many many automated weapons with plenty aluminum.    I'm dropping aluminum bombs from the upper  limits of the atmosphere,  aluminum artillery pieces. Any soldiers those Fullborn will see will be surrounded by many, many traps, tripwire, mines. Fire and aluminum eventually kills those monsters.

The problem  with these scenarios isn't necessarily if we could win them, it's why we went in the first place.  If our aim is just to wipe a Cosmere planet out of existence then these plans work fine.  If we'd like to someday occupy these places then the measures we'd have to take to negate the most powerful magic users leave most of the planet uninhabitable,  thus defeating the purpose.  We'd win the war but lose the peace.

So are we all thinking Roshar, Nalthis, Taldain, First and Threnody would be pushovers? 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

1 hour ago, Truthless of Shinovar said:

*shrugs* like I said, make of it what you will, but personally, I think that an Elantrian can still be killed.

I like your profile pic by the way!

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on Elantrians.

I found it on the web. Looks like the authors name is Benjamin Hill. All credit to him.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

With the use of nuclear and biological weapons the only thing that allows the Cosmere to survive a modern army is Shardic intervention.  

Maybe we can't kill Elantris with nukes. That's a debatable topic but let's say we can't.  No one else is protected and the Elantrian cannot venture far from their power generating city.  If we were to make the rest of the planet uninhabitable and kill all the people that could have been taken by the sheod then you basically have 10,000 Elantrians, a glowing city, and a planet with a barely surviving poisonous atmosphere. So they get pissed off. So what? They can't hit us at home in retaliation.

There is nothing that you can do to Arelon that Elantrians can't fix. Nuclear fallout can be transformed into literally anything else. Biological weapons can be wiped out with even a basic healing Aon.

There is ample evidence that Elantrians can leave Elantris, Arelon, and even Sel and still use their magics. We have seen them in Teod, and the CRs of Scadrial and Roshar. They use their magic in one form or another in all three places. They are certainly hindered by their tether to Elantris, but they are hardly stuck there. We have zero protection from their attacks. They could just play the long game and kill us slowly. It wouldn't even be hard. Break into one of our nuclear facilities, launch a nuke at another country, watch us destroy ourselves. Game over.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The Fullborn problem is a bit different.  If I commanded the Terran forces I'm playing keep away.  Marching up to Kredik Shaw with a massive army is suicide. Facing Fullborn I'm making many many automated weapons with plenty aluminum.    I'm dropping aluminum bombs from the upper  limits of the atmosphere,  aluminum artillery pieces. Any soldiers those Fullborn will see will be surrounded by many, many traps, tripwire, mines. Fire and aluminum eventually kills those monsters.

You're using conventional weapons with aluminum ammo against someone that can almost outrun bullets. How do you trap someone with compounded zinc? They can basically stop time and evaluate a situation. Fire absolutely does not kill them. Remember that Rashek (the most incompetent Fullborn) walked out of a burning building as little more than a skeleton and regrew his flesh in seconds. Miles blew himself up with tnt and was fully healed seconds later. You will run out of fuel before they run out of health. Aluminum only presents a mild problem, assuming that you managed to hit them in the first place, they simply have to rip the bullet out before the wound will close. They can store their sense of touch in a tinmind and use pewter enhanced fingers to rip out any aluminum.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

So are we all thinking Roshar, Nalthis, Taldain, First and Threnody would be pushovers? 

Roshar - No way to contend with the Highstorm. The Radiants could raid you in every Highstorm as well. Unlimited Stormlight and your whole army is stuck taking shelter. They either come out and fight, and die in the storm, or they stay hidden and die to Jasnah. Nukes would be useless, literally everyone lives in bunkers. Also, once they realized nukes were possible, Jasnah and Dalinar could combo their powers and start Soulcasting them onto your armies. Try to win that arms race.

Nalthis - Maybe. D'denir seem pretty resilient. You wouldn't get any value out of your nukes against an army of stone dudes, the radiation would be meaningless for them. If they start mass producing type fours, things could get really bad. I'd say we stand a chance here.

Taldain - Honestly don't know enough to weigh in. From what I've seen, we could probably take them.

First - Haven't seen enough of the magic. Don't know how powerful it can get. From what we have seen so far, we could take them.

Threnody - I don't think we could deal with the Shades. I think the story in Arcanum takes place pretty far in the past too. By the time Era 2 rolls around I think Threnody has advanced quite a bit. There's the bit in Secret History where the Ire think that Threnody can pose a threat (anyone that is a threat to Elantrians is worth worrying about), and the part in the Broadsheets where whats his face encounters a "Shade Blaster Pistol". Seems to me like they have some potential. Need more info to judge.

Edited March 10, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident