PrinceGenocide

Normal worlds vs Shardworlds

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Posted (edited)

So I read that skyward was originally meant to be Cosmere and it made me wonder , what about the non shardic planets ?

Khriss says they can't be visited due to lack of perpendicularities and I guess they don't have any magic systems either. 

But they would be free of the chaos and conflicts shards bring. 

SEL, Scadrial, Threnody, Ashyn, braize  and roshar have been ravaged by it.

The worlds under autonomy or her avatars suffer from isolationism , I guess. 

Nalthis is the only Shardworld that hasn't seen major conflicts and even it is quite backward for some reason. 

We don't know enough about Yolen to speculate. 

So now the normal worlds , Hmm , they have had 10,000 yrs of peace ( by peace I mean lack of Shardic conflicts , not no normal wars ) and many have good climes . The Drominad system alone has 3 of them.  There are dozens more. I believe not all of them are claimed by autonomy's avatars or the unknown Shards. 

So could one of the non Shardic worlds ,  develop space travel before or at the same time as the shard worlds.

They could rely on normal technologies like ours instead of investivure based ones. 

It might even be an advantage. Like they could have nukes , lasers , nanites , chemical and biological weapons and stuff .

At first they might depend completely on normal tech , then after contact with the shardworlds they could integrate investiture based tech into their conventional ones .

The shardworlds might neglect to do that since they might think thier tech is superior to conventional ones and make a surprised Pikachu face when they are subjected to nuclear bombardment from orbit.  

Hell maybe they could even create strains of lethal disease resistant to investivure based healing after they learn about Realistic theory. 

Hmmmmm something to think of. 

But I guess without FTL , they won't go too far. Unless they steal or buy or reverse engineer Scadrial tech.

There are dozens more. I wonder if any one of them could eventually rival a shardworld.

Whatchu think ?

Edited by PrinceGenocide
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3 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

 they have had 10,000 yrs of peace

let me just stop you here. in our real world we didn't have shards messing around, and yet we didn't have much peace either.

on the other hand, peace is not necessarily good for progress. some speculate that europe was more advanced at the beginning of the discovery age exactly because it had one millennia of almost constant warfare, where everyone was forced to innovate or succumb, while in other continents a big monolitic empire formed and ensured peace, but the ruling class didn't have many reasons to try and change things.

Another thing to account is that the speed of progress can be highly variable. We don't know what directs it. we only have one world to observe, and cannot know how it could go in other places. But we know that even in our world, different geographical areas have experienced periods of flourishing and periods of stagnation. the rate of technological innovation has been anything but constant or predictable

so, while there is certainly the possibility that some non-shardworld has some advanced civilization on it, there is also no guarantee, and no way to surmise

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4 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Khriss says they can't be visited due to lack of perpendicularities and I guess they don't have any magic systems either. 

The ecology of Roshar presupposes magical powers. Yolen had the Sho Del and dragons.

4 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

We don't know enough about Yolen to speculate.

Well, we have a crucial hint. People got from Yolen to worlds without perpendicularities. How?

4 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

There are dozens more. I wonder if any one of them could eventually rival a shardworld.

In the end Investiture allows you to break the laws of conventional physics. As far as we understand them. A mundane world can of course be more advanced then an invested world at some point in time. However not in the end state after contact. Now, whether a Shard in residence has anything to with it is a totally different question. At least the Metallic Arts and Awakening work everywhere.

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The earth as stands today,  were it actually a part of the Cosmere,  would represent the most technologically advanced civilization in the Cosmere.  And we'd likely wipe the floor with the lot of them.  Scadrial and Roshar would each give us heavy losses but Scadrial doesn't have the population and Roshar doesn't have the range or immunity to disease to match us. Of course that is changing. There's a day approaching fast where we won't be able to keep up with magictech.  But that day has not yet come. Scadrial has already reached the demarcation point with guns. Roshar is right there with the advance of fabrials.

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6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Nalthis is the only Shardworld that hasn't seen major conflicts and even it is quite backward for some reason. 

We have only seen a small part of the planet and it is not necessarily the most advanced tec wise. 

6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

The worlds under autonomy or her avatars suffer from isolationism , I guess. 

We think.  Taldain might be an example of this but we don't know what is going on there.

6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

So could one of the non Shardic worlds ,  develop space travel before or at the same time as the shard worlds.

Yeah but since the Mistborn era four method relies on the metallic arts they will be stuck at sublight speeds.  So interplanetary might be a yes but interstellar is almost certainly a no.

6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

It might even be an advantage. Like they could have nukes , lasers , nanites , chemical and biological weapons and stuff .

Some magic systems would make discovering this stuff easier but sure that is possible.

6 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Hell maybe they could even create strains of lethal disease resistant to investivure based healing after they learn about Realistic theory. 

That would be possible.

Other advantages include the effects of a harsher lifestyle.  In general societies that are poorer and have less exploitable natraul resources have fewer military or political conflicts and they are sometimes more inclined to scientific advancement.  We will have to wait and see.

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3 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

let me just stop you here. in our real world we didn't have shards messing around, and yet we didn't have much peace either.

Another thing to account is that the speed of progress can be highly variable. We don't know what directs it. we only have one world to observe, and cannot know how it could go in other places. But we know that even in our world, different geographical areas have experienced periods of flourishing and periods of stagnation. the rate of technological innovation has been anything but constant or predictable

 

I meant peace with respect to shadic conflicts. Nothing like what happened on Sel or Scadrial. 

Yes , true . We don't really know what leads to tech progress and what doesn't. But that's I said there are dozens of planet with good environs. 

Surely one of them could be like us. 

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9 hours ago, PrinceGenocide said:

So I read that skyward was originally meant to be Cosmere and it made me wonder , what about the non shardic planets ?

Khriss says they can't be visited due to lack of perpendicularities and I guess they don't have any magic systems either. 

But they would be free of the chaos and conflicts shards bring. 

SEL, Scadrial, Threnody, Ashyn, braize  and roshar have been ravaged by it.

The worlds under autonomy or her avatars suffer from isolationism , I guess. 

Nalthis is the only Shardworld that hasn't seen major conflicts and even it is quite backward for some reason. 

We don't know enough about Yolen to speculate. 

So now the normal worlds , Hmm , they have had 10,000 yrs of peace and many have good climes . The Drominad system alone has 3 of them.  There are dozens more. I believe not all of them are claimed by autonomy's avatars or the unknown Shards. 

So could one of the non Shardic worlds ,  develop space travel before or at the same time as the shard worlds.

They could rely on normal technologies like ours instead of investivure based ones. 

It might even be an advantage. Like they could have nukes , lasers , nanites , chemical and biological weapons and stuff .

At first they might depend completely on normal tech , then after contact with the shardworlds they could integrate investiture based tech into their conventional ones .

The shardworlds might neglect to do that since they might think thier tech is superior to conventional ones and make a surprised Pikachu face when they are subjected to nuclear bombardment from orbit.  

Hell maybe they could even create strains of lethal disease resistant to investivure based healing after they learn about Realistic theory. 

Hmmmmm something to think of. 

But I guess without FTL , they won't go too far. Unless they steal or buy or reverse engineer Scadrial tech.

There are dozens more. I wonder if any one of them could eventually rival a shardworld.

Whatchu think ?

Strange to see Braize on that list

Huh, the continents of Sel have fallen to their bigger neighbours and seem to have had a resulting stagnation or regression of knowledge.

Nalthis did have the Manywars, major conflict involving all the major powers.

Yeah, non-Shard world could be far ahead in the technological curve but wouldn't some of the Shards interfere, trying to halt their progress or copy their tech? In the event of a conflict Shards are once again in a very high weight class.

Eventually these worlds would need to tap into Realmatics or Investiture systems, there's just too much potential there.

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Since most of the conflicts that Brandon's books center around magics and magical threats, non-shardic or non-magical planets will probably turn out to be irrelevant in the wider Cosmere stage, since the easiest way to travel between planets (shadesmar) requires a perpendicularity (except for notable situations, e.g. Roshar).

So while worlds like this (technologically advanced, non-shardic, non-magical worlds inhabited by sentient species) statistically should exist (look at the other planets in the Drominad system [not first of the sun since it has some level of shardic influence]) we probably won't see too much of them since they'll be isolated from most of the cosmere until widespread FTL or easily manufactured Oathgates (I think Brandon was toying with the Idea of using them for fast intergalactic travel).

Yes, earth (our starting point for comparison) could wipe the floor with the rest of the Cosmere if given a Shin-war-esque scenario, but that's mainly because of the scientific revolution, we got lucky and large groups of people dedicated themselves to inventing and improving technologies (before that point most technologies were stumbled upon by accident). And looking back on it, it took a number of different (unlikely) factors all working together to make this possible. So it makes sense that most planets in the Cosmere are behind Earth technologically (of course excluding magitec). Of course the natural exception is Scadrial, but they've had a nice push from Sazed via the "Words of Founding", and also that their specialty in metals (I believe that the Shardworld's technology is supposed to specialized based on the magic system) lead to them focusing on industry (Sazed actual remarks that they are not developing technologically as well as they should), which has drastic, easily seen, effects on Scadrial as a whole.

It makes sense for other places to "stagnate" technologically, since that is how us Terrans spent most of our existence after agriculture, most of the time not much changed, though every once and a while, here and there, someone stumbles upon a new way of doing something that turns out to be better. This would make technological advances slow, since they would be mostly by accident, rather than on purpose, and without a pressure to make people seek out better ways of doing things (rich people's passion projects don't count, we need internal/external forces pushing a society to advance technologically), civilizations don't advance so quickly.

TLDR: Non-magical planets are not a focus of Brandons (so they won't show up much in his books). And science is something we got lucky with, so expecting it to happen the same way on other planets doesn't make much sense.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, Dreamer said:

Strange to see Braize on that list

Huh, the continents of Sel have fallen to their bigger neighbours and seem to have had a resulting stagnation or regression of knowledge.

Nalthis did have the Manywars, major conflict involving all the major powers.

Yeah, non-Shard world could be far ahead in the technological curve but wouldn't some of the Shards interfere, trying to halt their progress or copy their tech? In the event of a conflict Shards are once again in a very high weight class.

Eventually these worlds would need to tap into Realmatics or Investiture systems, there's just too much potential there.

I feel braize might have developed technologically advanced Spren civilizations if honor and Odium hadn't stuffed it full of half mad Parshendi ghosts. 

Nalthis did have the many war but idk if that counts.

On one hand , it was nothing compared to the Desolations or the war of Ash.

On the other hand , awakening made things a lot worse than they had to be.

The shards might completely ignore these worlds , thinking they can't achieve much without investivure.

Or they might notice it , but be too trapped to leave thier systems ( odium, cultivation, harmony ) or might be too focused on other shards.( Harmony , endowment , the survival shard )

Or they are u know dead. 

Besides they might notice it later but by that time wars between the shards and shardworlds might occupy all thier attention. 

The shard I can think of interfering would be autonomy. She might already be doing that with FoTS. But she has left the other two planets untouched. 

Sure , I completely agree that they will eventually have to tap into realmatics. I just think before that they will explore avenues of science the Shardworlds might ignore. Robotics, nanotech , biotech , nukes , cybertech , etc . ( As a bonus , none of this tech will be affected by leeching or aluminium).

This will give them an edge. Then they could just reverse engineer shardworld tech or maybe ally with a shardworld or learn from worldhoppers . Combine conventional science with realmatics to become stronger still. 

 

 

Edited by PrinceGenocide
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@DiePie we can't really be sure science was something we got lucky with. 

Besides there are dozens of normal worlds , I'm sure atleast one of them could do it. 

Yes they would be restricted till Scadrian FTL tech comes into thier reach. But in the meantime they could further advance thier tech to levels where they could rival magitec. 

Really FTL is the only weak point and if they reverse engineer it. They could just expand out into the Cosmere.   

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1 minute ago, PrinceGenocide said:

we can't really be sure science was something we got lucky with. 

we can actually, out of the (I'm gonna say 6) civilizations that developed on earth (East Asia, India, The Middle East, The West, West Africa, The Andes and Mesoamerica), only 1 actually had the proper environmental pressures to begin a scientific revolution, and that was the West.

Now, applying that to known worlds in the Cosmere, only 2 are based off of the West: the the setting of Elantris (which is split between a post-scarcity society ruled by an enlightened despot, and a religious Theocracy, neither of which seem likely to have the right pressures to technologically advance), and the Northerners on Scadrial, who are based on Industrial-age America (and we know they've hit the scientific advancement thing right on the nose).

Roshar seems likely to experience an industrial revolution if it survives the desolation (It's mentioned that they already have factory's, and they are not a new concept either + the next book Rhythms of War seems to involve an arms race of magitec so they'll be pushed into the whole science thing as well)

And while I'm still talking about Shardic planets specifically, it seems unlikely that any more will experience an industrial revolution without outside interference, just based on the odds I've already stated.

19 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

Yes they would be restricted till Scadrian FTL tech comes into thier reach. But in the meantime they could further advance thier tech to levels where they could rival magitec. 

as I said before, they don't just "further avance tech". Most of these civilizations probably won't ever consciously advance technologically; assuming they did, it is still unlikely that they will ever obtain Scadrian FTL tech, much less have the resources or knowledge of magic and magitec to use them. And magitec has very different applications than normal tech, it allows you to break or bend the laws of physics (e.g. nothing can travel faster than light), so you can't just replace it altogether.

 

4 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The earth as stands today,  were it actually a part of the Cosmere,  would represent the most technologically advanced civilization in the Cosmere.  And we'd likely wipe the floor with the lot of them.  Scadrial and Roshar would each give us heavy losses but Scadrial doesn't have the population and Roshar doesn't have the range or immunity to disease to match us. Of course that is changing. There's a day approaching fast where we won't be able to keep up with magictech.  But that day has not yet come. Scadrial has already reached the demarcation point with guns. Roshar is right there with the advance of fabrials.

"Wipe the floor" would be an understatement, 200 years ago a unified Terran force could have taken over the entire Cosmere without too much issue (assuming they don't have to worry about supply and travel... Actually that would probably be their biggest problem). The only planet we've seen that has even a similar level of technology is Scadrial. But Scadrial hasn't had a war in over 300 years, and would fall easily. No other world has had the combination of over a 1000 years of near-constant warfare and an advanced industrial and scientific base to stop superior Terran troops and Tactics. But now... how would anybody in the Cosmere deal with Tanks and Planes and Guns and Artillery? even giving them time to prepare, the Terran Industrial base probably produces as much goods as the entire Cosmere combined. Maybe like Shardbearers or the lifeless stone structures could give them a fight, but.... how do you stop literally tens of millions of tanks, planes and artillery? Especially considering that's more people than live on most of these planets.

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3 minutes ago, DiePie said:

we can actually, out of the (I'm gonna say 6) civilizations that developed on earth (East Asia, India, The Middle East, The West, West Africa, The Andes and Mesoamerica), only 1 actually had the proper environmental pressures to begin a scientific revolution, and that was the West.

We can't be 100% sure why the west alone industrialized. If things had turned out A bit differently. It could have been China or India that would have had the scientific revolutions. So I think it might be wrong to assume only western style civilizations could undergo the required changes 

Even if it is true. We don't know anything about the NSWs. Maybe they have a western style world. 

Quote


as I said before, they don't just "further avance tech". Most of these civilizations probably won't ever consciously advance technologically; assuming they did, it is still unlikely that they will ever obtain Scadrian FTL tech, much less have the resources or knowledge of magic and magitec to use them. And magitec has very different applications than normal tech, it allows you to break or bend the laws of physics (e.g. nothing can travel faster than light), so you can't just replace it altogether.

Well we are advancing now even without any external threats or influence. 

We could cross post scarcity within the century or next. 

I don't see y they couldn't do the same. Also magitec doesn't really break the laws of physics. It just utilizes additional laws based on investivure. 

 

And I don't think it's actually faster than light. I have posted a topic on that too.

 

As for how they get Scadrian tech .

Well many ways are possible 

A crash landing , like the Cosmere area 51.

A shardworld trying to conquer the planet thinking it will be easy but are beaten back and abandon some tech behind.

Good Samaritans who fear these worlds might be exploited by others and try to put them on a equal footing.

Political refugees requesting asylum , etc 

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8 minutes ago, DiePie said:

we can actually, out of the (I'm gonna say 6) civilizations that developed on earth (East Asia, India, The Middle East, The West, West Africa, The Andes and Mesoamerica), only 1 actually had the proper environmental pressures to begin a scientific revolution, and that was the West.

Now, applying that to known worlds in the Cosmere, only 2 are based off of the West: the the setting of Elantris (which is split between a post-scarcity society ruled by an enlightened despot, and a religious Theocracy, neither of which seem likely to have the right pressures to technologically advance), and the Northerners on Scadrial, who are based on Industrial-age America (and we know they've hit the scientific advancement thing right on the nose).

Roshar seems likely to experience an industrial revolution if it survives the desolation (It's mentioned that they already have factory's, and they are not a new concept either + the next book Rhythms of War seems to involve an arms race of magitec so they'll be pushed into the whole science thing as well)

And while I'm still talking about Shardic planets specifically, it seems unlikely that any more will experience an industrial revolution without outside interference, just based on the odds I've already stated.

as I said before, they don't just "further avance tech". Most of these civilizations probably won't ever consciously advance technologically; assuming they did, it is still unlikely that they will ever obtain Scadrian FTL tech, much less have the resources or knowledge of magic and magitec to use them. And magitec has very different applications than normal tech, it allows you to break or bend the laws of physics (e.g. nothing can travel faster than light), so you can't just replace it altogether.

 

"Wipe the floor" would be an understatement, 200 years ago a unified Terran force could have taken over the entire Cosmere without too much issue (assuming they don't have to worry about supply and travel... Actually that would probably be their biggest problem). The only planet we've seen that has even a similar level of technology is Scadrial. But Scadrial hasn't had a war in over 300 years, and would fall easily. No other world has had the combination of over a 1000 years of near-constant warfare and an advanced industrial and scientific base to stop superior Terran troops and Tactics. But now... how would anybody in the Cosmere deal with Tanks and Planes and Guns and Artillery? even giving them time to prepare, the Terran Industrial base probably produces as much goods as the entire Cosmere combined. Maybe like Shardbearers or the lifeless stone structures could give them a fight, but.... how do you stop literally tens of millions of tanks, planes and artillery? Especially considering that's more people than live on most of these planets.

Roshar could deal with Earth better than any Shardworld we've seen so far. The surges are area denial tools. They have no supply lines to attack. They can fly. Really,  disease is what ultimately beats Roshar, they aren't equipped to deal with microbes that evolved right alongside them like Terrans are; the microbes of Roshar were built to infect crustaceans. 

Scadrial is next in line because our tech would not be foriegn to them,  merely an expansion of their own knowledge. It's like when Odium knocked on Taravanginan"s window to take a look at the Diagram. If they can figure out assembly lines then with their powers they're going to hurt us pretty bad. My strategy if I were Rosharan would be to send magical assassins to kill all the enemy leaders. But us Terrans are no slouches either and we already have the head start.  Plus our communications are as close to instantaneous.  Even if the Scadrians take out a bunch of us and we have dummies as commanders, sheer weight of numbers carries the war in the Terrans' favor. 

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15 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Roshar could deal with Earth better than any Shardworld we've seen so far. The surges are area denial tools. They have no supply lines to attack. They can fly. Really,  disease is what ultimately beats Roshar, they aren't equipped to deal with microbes that evolved right alongside them like Terrans are; the microbes of Roshar were built to infect crustaceans. 

Scadrial is next in line because our tech would not be foriegn to them,  merely an expansion of their own knowledge. It's like when Odium knocked on Taravanginan"s window to take a look at the Diagram. If they can figure out assembly lines then with their powers they're going to hurt us pretty bad. My strategy if I were Rosharan would be to send magical assassins to kill all the enemy leaders. But us Terrans are no slouches either and we already have the head start.  Plus our communications are as close to instantaneous.  Even if the Scadrians take out a bunch of us and we have dummies as commanders, sheer weight of numbers carries the war in the Terrans' favor. 

that's a lot of great points, I completely forgot about supply lines and our better organizational skills. Radios and computers give us a leg up organization-wise and while we have to worry about transporting supplies (most likely from earth) they can just make it on the battlefield.

However I would like to bring up 1 word: guns while microbes would be a threat, I don't like to rely on them because of how inconsistent they are. But a few hits from a gun in the same place could take down a person in shardplate, and while the surges would provide a major challenge, artillery, and rockets could hit targets at a distance, while the Rosharans may not have supply lines, they still have supply hubs and command tents and places where the command would be centralized. In other words: prefect targets for long-range attacks. That's still ignoring our greatest advantage: Tanks. They are basically walking (or should I say rolling) surgebinders, every one able to deliver enough power to reduce shardblades to rubble, and they would move faster too. But we are still forgetting that the population of earth is probably greater than that of the entire Cosmere, and along with that comes increased industrial capacity, while Roshar will have only a few thousand surgebinders total (assuming that their numbers grow tremendously before any blitz begins), we will be able to field tens of thousands of tanks easily. Though we still have a leg-up organizationally due to better tactics and radios. While they could hit our supply lines, we would probably have more than they would have able windrunners/skybreakers.

Then there's Scadrial, which while we don't have such a leg up technologically (they have guns as well) they wouldn't do much against tanks. Then there's Scadrial's main problem: their main civilization (or probably both of them) haven't been at war for over 300 years. Scadrial would have guns, but have no Idea how to use them effectively.

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Everyone saying that we could beat the Cosmere in a war is high. A single fullborn or Elantrian could make our entire species extinct. Surgebinders literally destroyed their home planet. That's not even counting what happens when the Shards get involved. Sazed could probably delete our entire solar system with a thought.

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H

Tanks are great but their effectiveness would be limited on Roshar. Technically complex, any Soulcaster worth their salt could change something on that tank to make it a 40 ton paperweight. And Shardblade cuts metal as easily as it does rock. But say some enterprising egghead notices the properties of aluminum as defense. No cheap kills, right? Well.... People with surges can just shape the terrain to reduce or eliminate the mobility of said tank, of most wheeled or track vehicles actually. Artillery now.  That's the real man killer for Terran forces. Imagine how damaging a bouncing Betty or a claymore filled with aluminum shrapnel would be to a Radiant of any Order. It's a world of hurt any way you stretch it. Unfortunately,  due to the high oxygen levels in Rosharan atmosphere artillery is probably a weapon of last resort. 

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2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Everyone saying that we could beat the Cosmere in a war is high. A single fullborn or Elantrian could make our entire species extinct. Surgebinders literally destroyed their home planet. That's not even counting what happens when the Shards get involved. Sazed could probably delete our entire solar system with a thought.

We couldn't deal with shards. 

But we could surprise a fullborn or the city of elantris with a Nuke. Even they wouldn't survive that 

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7 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Everyone saying that we could beat the Cosmere in a war is high. A single fullborn or Elantrian could make our entire species extinct. Surgebinders literally destroyed their home planet. That's not even counting what happens when the Shards get involved. Sazed could probably delete our entire solar system with a thought.

perhaps... But your still ignoring that we have a 10 or 100 to 1 advantage in numbers to the entire cosmere, so let's say that Scadrial does manage to get a fullburn (however unlikely), how well would they deal with an army that reaches to the horizon, or an artillery barrage that blocks out the sun? Or if we knew about how their magic systems work, then we could create special "mistborn fighting units" with aluminum weapons and Kevlar armor, impervious to their attacks, they could shoot without having to worry about their weapons being turned against them, and these things aren't too hard to make on earth, so we could afford to create enough to overwhelm even the most skilled one. And say we know how the Elantrian's magic works, then all we have to do is nuke Elantris, a quick ICBM would neutralize not only their capital city, but also ruin their ability to use AonDor.

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I see no reason that Aon Edo wouldn’t block a nuke. Additionally, nuking Elantris wouldn’t break the Aon or kill the Elantrians, only civilians would die.

As for a Fullborn, they could kill tirelessly, basically forever, at the speed of compounded steel. They could probably kill everyone on the planet in less that a year.

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1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I see no reason that Aon Edo wouldn’t block a nuke. Additionally, nuking Elantris wouldn’t break the Aon or kill the Elantrians, only civilians would die.

As for a Fullborn, they could kill tirelessly, basically forever, at the speed of compounded steel. They could probably kill everyone on the planet in less that a year.

A preemptive nuclear strike taking them by surprise would work. Suppose Tlr is resting in kredik Shaw . Boom we suddenly hit luthadel with a Nuke travelling on a hypersonic icbm. 

They would have no way of detecting it. 

We could use high load thermonuclear bombs that would dwarf nagasaki. 

It would irradiate the place but the planet is already a wasteland anyway. 

We can target kredik shaw with great accuracy and Within microseconds the temperatures would be enough to melt Tlr and his metalminds. 

The only way he can survive is to go the underground bunker. But even with compunded steel he might not have enough time. 

He will be surprised , shocked ( similar to when Vin ripped out his bands ) and he would only have microseconds to react . He would be dead before the can even think to compound steel. 

Besides he might not even know that the underground chamber will protect him. For additional safety we could use extremely high loads , like 5 megatons or more. 

Or maybe a barrage of nukes hitting one after the other with intervals of a few minutes to blast away even the underground Chambers. Hmmm I wonder what effect this will have on the well of Ascension and the Lerasium beads .

Same applies to elantris. U hit em preemptively with a Nuke. They don't even have guns to worry about so they sure as hell won't be expecting icbms. 

Even if they do I'm not so sure son eto would suffice to protect them.

First of all , it's meant to protect from small scale explosions or arrows and stuff. Not from nukes with kilotons or megatons of destructive powers.

Second. Even if it can , it will take a lot of coodination and time to establish one to cover the entire city with a force field. Idk if that's even possible In The first place. 

Even if it is , with a hypersonic icbm u have maybe seconds at best to create the force field. Not enough time.

 

Suppose they somehow pull it off and maintain a permanent forcefield . So what ? I'm sure a Nuke in the megaton range or multiple hits of kiloton class nukes in quick succession would overwhelm it and then even if a part of the city is warped that's enough to disable the entire magic system. Fire one more Nuke to be on the safe side and elantris is wiped out. 

 

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2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I see no reason that Aon Edo wouldn’t block a nuke. Additionally, nuking Elantris wouldn’t break the Aon or kill the Elantrians, only civilians would die.

It lets through light. Infrared radiation is light. Use a aufficiently large warhead. Now, it is possible that the Elantrians know an Aon for darkness or reflection. But it is not plausible that they would deploy it before the first few examples of being hit by such weapons.

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

As for a Fullborn, they could kill tirelessly, basically forever, at the speed of compounded steel. They could probably kill everyone on the planet in less that a year.

He is also vulnerable to extreme heat. You cannot freeze to death a compounder with enough metals. Vaporizing, however, still works. He can cool himself only until his metalminds are filled.

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Posted (edited)

23 minutes ago, PrinceGenocide said:

A preemptive nuclear strike taking them by surprise would work. Suppose Tlr is resting in kredik Shaw . Boom we suddenly hit luthadel with a Nuke travelling on a hypersonic icbm. 

They would have no way of detecting it. 

We could use high load thermonuclear bombs that would dwarf nagasaki. 

It would irradiate the place but the planet is already a wasteland anyway. 

We can target kredik shaw with great accuracy and Within microseconds the temperatures would be enough to melt Tlr and his metalminds. 

The only way he can survive is to go the underground bunker. But even with compunded steel he might not have enough time. 

He will be surprised , shocked ( similar to when Vin ripped out his bands ) and he would only have microseconds to react . He would be dead before the can even think to compound steel. 

Besides he might not even know that the underground chamber will protect him. For additional safety we could use extremely high loads , like 5 megatons or more. 

Or maybe a barrage of nukes hitting one after the other with intervals of a few minutes to blast away even the underground Chambers. Hmmm I wonder what effect this will have on the well of Ascension and the Lerasium beads .

Same applies to elantris. U hit em preemptively with a Nuke. They don't even have guns to worry about so they sure as hell won't be expecting icbms. 

Even if they do I'm not so sure son eto would suffice to protect them.

First of all , it's meant to protect from small scale explosions or arrows and stuff. Not from nukes with kilotons or megatons of destructive powers.

Second. Even if it can , it will take a lot of coodination and time to establish one to cover the entire city with a force field. Idk if that's even possible In The first place. 

Even if it is , with a hypersonic icbm u have maybe seconds at best to create the force field. Not enough time.

 

Suppose they somehow pull it off and maintain a permanent forcefield . So what ? I'm sure a Nuke in the megaton range or multiple hits of kiloton class nukes in quick succession would overwhelm it and then even if a part of the city is warped that's enough to disable the entire magic system. Fire one more Nuke to be on the safe side and elantris is wiped out. 

 

For the first part about Scadrial, I would never use Rashek as an example. He is grossly incompetent. Easily the worst possible candidate for an power, let alone Fullborn status. Secondly, your idea seems to center on the idea of a surprise attack, so where did we get all this intel that lets us know exactly where we should be attacking? Thirdly, wtf prompted us to launch apocalypse level surprise attack against another civilization? Fourth, how did one of our nuclear powers manage to get hypersonic nuclear weapons into space without prompting nuclear destruction of our own planet?

As to nuking Elantris, destroying the city would have zero impact on the underlying Aon. It was drawn by Elantrians and can only be broken by them (or a massive change in the shape of Arelon, the Gradget of Dakhor, or maybe someone burning chromium). Wiping away an Aon does not destroy it.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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Posted (edited)

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He is also vulnerable to extreme heat. You cannot freeze to death a compounder with enough metals. Vaporizing, however, still works. He can cool himself only until his metalminds are filled.

How exactly are you planing on targeting this person with your weapons? They move faster than sight and might even be able to move faster than your hypothetical hypersonic nukes. Additionally, those nukes have metal components and could easy be ripped to shreds by a Fullborn.

Edited by SwordNimiForPresident
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3 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

or a massive change in the shape of Arelon

Good suggestion. A few thousand megatons of TNT equivalent should do that.

The true power of a whole planet with nuclear knowledge if it were really turned towards destruction is horrifying.

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6 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

How exactly are you planing on targeting this person with your weapons? They move faster than sight and might even be able to move faster than your hypothetical hypersonic nukes. Additionally, those nukes have metal components and could easy be ripped to shreds by a Fullborn.

I don't target. Saturation bombardment and traps. I may have to burn a continent. So be it.

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