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Dancer

Tin enhanced Seeking

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I have always thought this could work but have never come across it in the books. Bronze gives you an extra sensory ability to detect kinetic Investiture. Tin enhances all senses not just the five that you have but all senses. Therefor when Tin and Bronze are burnt at the same time you should have enhanced Seeking abilities. If both are flared it should theoretically be able to pierce copper clouds. Either I am wrong, Brandon overlooked this or the characters in the story didn't perceive A-bronze as an extra sense so it interfered with the tin enhancement that should have happened.

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NewbSombrero

Can Feruchemical tin store Allomantically granted senses like bronze sense?

Brandon Sanderson

Possible.

General Signed Books 2018 (Feb. 8, 2018)

If Feruchemical tin can (possibly) store seeking, I think Allomantic tin can (possibly) enhance seeking.

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cool idea I never would have thought of that.

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8 hours ago, Dancer said:

I have always thought this could work but have never come across it in the books. Bronze gives you an extra sensory ability to detect kinetic Investiture. Tin enhances all senses not just the five that you have but all senses. Therefor when Tin and Bronze are burnt at the same time you should have enhanced Seeking abilities. If both are flared it should theoretically be able to pierce copper clouds. Either I am wrong, Brandon overlooked this or the characters in the story didn't perceive A-bronze as an extra sense so it interfered with the tin enhancement that should have happened.

Although Vin was pretty often burning Tin when she was out in the Mists, wasn't she? And possibly using Bronze at the same time...

Oh wait, she can already pierce copperclouds, so she might not have noticed. :P

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It's a good thought, but I don't think it would go undiscovered by a 1000 years of mistborn. Its important to remember the A and F are not one to one. For example a sense storeable with F is balance, which in A is under pewter.

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Posted (edited)

On 3/7/2020 at 9:08 AM, Artemos said:

If Feruchemical tin can (possibly) store seeking, I think Allomantic tin can (possibly) enhance seeking.

I would guess that a Mistborn boosting their A-bronze Seeker sense with A-tin might elevate the range of their power (you still get the same input, but with much greater sensitivity to subtle signals within it) but not its actual level of power (needed to overcome an Investiture barrier like a coppercloud, which would come from something like flaring the metal). So, no breaking copperclouds with that trick (which Mistborn surely would have noticed over a thousand years, especially Kelsier), but in terms of Vin being able to flare-and-double-Seek around Shan Elariel's coppercloud from across a fair distance, several roofs away, her already flaring tin when she did so (to try to spot them visually ) might well have helped.

Edited by robardin
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17 hours ago, robardin said:

I would guess that a Mistborn boosting their A-bronze Seeker sense with A-tin might elevate the range of their power (you still get the same input, but with much greater sensitivity to subtle signals within it) but not its actual level of power (needed to overcome an Investiture barrier like a coppercloud, which would come from something like flaring the metal). So, no breaking copperclouds with that trick (which Mistborn surely would have noticed over a thousand years, especially Kelsier), but in terms of Vin being able to flare-and-double-Seek around Shan Elariel's coppercloud from across a fair distance, several roofs away, her already flaring tin when she did so (to try to spot them visually ) might well have helped.

Going off that then they should be able to detect quieter pulses like Feruchemy. But again we come to another problem. IIRC there is a WOB that states that the Inquisitors had been trying for centuries to use bronze to detect Feruchemy but hadn't found the trick to doing it yet.  

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Posted (edited)

6 hours ago, Dancer said:

Going off that then they should be able to detect quieter pulses like Feruchemy. But again we come to another problem. IIRC there is a WOB that states that the Inquisitors had been trying for centuries to use bronze to detect Feruchemy but hadn't found the trick to doing it yet.  

Since at least some Inquisitors (made from Seekers or Mistborn like Marsh) were extra-strong when burning bronze and could break through equal-era copperclouds, it probably wasn't a matter of strength or range but opportunity and familiarity.

Vin had to train to distinguish Allomantic pulses from each other, so perhaps the pulsing from tapping a metalmind is similar enough to an Allomantic pulse that it's difficult to pick out.

Plus, I'd assume a Seeker could only really detect tapping, not filling a metalmind - or at least much more easily, since you can tap a metalmind at a multiple but can only fill at a relatively low base rate. Allomancers tend to burn their metals for a far longer period of time than a Feruchemist would tap their metalmind (especially a Keeper trying to avoid the attention of the Inquisitors, as opposed to an open use of Feruchemy as Sazed and Tindwyl do after TLR's fall, in the defense of Elendel against the koloss). We see Sazed spending far more time filling his metalminds than he does tapping them, since the biggest advantages generally come from a brief but heavy tap (pewter, steel, gold, iron, zincminds) than a low, steady draw (probably of a brassmind or bronzemind, maybe tinmind).

Put that all together and even if certain Inquisitors were magically equipped to Seek out Feruchemists, they were untrained as to how their pulses would sound or feel, their targets were far fewer in number than Allomancers, and the Keepers were actively working to minimize noticeable use of their Metalborn powers by everybody, not just Seekers and Inquisitors.

I mean, if TLR really cared to have them find Feruchemists, like it was Priority #1, he'd let them train by Seeking on him while he tapped various metalminds in sequence. But that would mean revealing the nature of his "divine" power.

Besides, I have the feeling that he didn't really want to exterminate Feruchemy in the Terris population, just suppress and control it to a large degree.

The kandra knew about the Keepers, so if they truly served the Father as their first loyalty, per the First Contract, then couldn't they have been required to snitch out whatever Keepers they learned of? Like OreSeur as Renoux serving a Contract for Kelsier, who knew about Sazed's nature. It was already skirting the limits of the First Contract to work for someone whose goal was to destroy their Father, but as KanPaar noted, they had no expectation that "this one" would actually succeed in such a seemingly ridiculous and impossible a goal "where other's hadn't" (implying others had employed kandra for similar reasons in the past, and hey, their atium's as good as anybody else's). But if TLR had had a standing order to all kandra on assignment to report back to him on any Feruchemists they found while working under cover (without blowing their cover), they'd have had to do it. And "Lord Renoux" could certainly have written an anonymous tip to the Steel Ministry that "Steward Sazed is a Keeper".

So it stands to reason Rashek never went that far in his pursuit of identifying Feruchemists, because he didn't feel like he had to, and didn't really want to. He could have trained his Inquisitors better, but he didn't; he could have had all the kandra serving as spies with a constant background mission to find them, but didn't.

Heck, the "Terris breeding program" wasn't even his idea. It was in the 5th or 6th century of his rule that the Steel Ministry conceived of it. Per Sazed, the Keepers were founded in the second or third century after Rashek's Ascension, as his "purges" of the Terris were growing "quite violent", before the breeding programs were begun; and then in Yomen's talk with Elend when he crashes his ball at Fadrex City, the subject of the history and the treatmen of the Terris in the Final Empire comes up as a topic:

Quote

"The sixth-century stewardship program was not even devised by the Lord Ruler. The newly formed Canton of Inquisition proposed it as a means of population control for the Terris, and the Lord Ruler agreed to it provisionally."

"That provision turned into a meas of subjugating an entire race of people," Elend said.

"That subjugation started far earlier," Yomen said. "Everyone knows the history of this, Venture. The Terris were a people who absolutely refused to submit to imperial rule, and they had to be strictly reined in. However, can you honestly say that Terris stewards were treated poorly? They're the most honored servants in all of the empire!"

As we often saw with Rashek/TLR, his cruel and dominating side could still war with another side that wanted to shelter and preserve people, especially his own Terris people who held an "honored" if subjugated role in the Final Empire, so long as they obeyed and would submit.

Also part of his megalomania was that he didn't do as much as he could do all the time, because undying omnipotence is boring, I guess, and limiting himself for fun became a habit. Like how he could have immediately squashed Marsh, Sazed, and Vin a zillion different ways in his throne room, but took the time to beat them up and monologue at them long enough for Vin to figure things out and draw on the mists (not to mention being the reason she got her earring Pushed out).

Edited by robardin
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