How to make simple weapons that cooperate with a surge

[+Oltux72]

Roshar is at war and the Knights Radiant are reforming. Although some Surges (Division being the clearest example) are weapons, we can still ask which simple weapon could be used to enhance a Surge or be enhanced with a Surge. As at least the advanced Radiants have a Shardblade I will focus on ranged weapons.

Gravitation

Guns would be tempting. But the choice would be wrong. The accelerations you can get are too low. A small mass will not achieve killing energies. And aim is a problem. What can be done? I would suggest a javelin in a tube. With Gravitation you cannot get high speeds, so for momentum you need mass. But accelerating a heavy object is not an issue, given enough Stormlight. So I'd use a tube preferably with holes and an open back , which has to be as straight as possible. Put a javelin into it, add a few feathered vanes to it and lash it to go forward. You can add sights to the tube.

Abrasion

Crossbows. Only the vanes of a bolt would need to have wind resistance. Range would be close to ballistics in a vacuum and the loss of speed small.

 

For the other Surges however, I see no obvious path to weaponization. Any ideas?

[Bigmikey357]

For Tension I'd use a long rope or chain, rounded to a point at either end. It could be used in any number of ways for a versatile mind. A piercing weapon,  a sword breaker, one could grab it about the middle and make one side stiff, the other a whip.  Make a rope spear out of it. Really a bunch of possibilities. 

[FantasyFanatic]

14 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

For the other Surges however, I see no obvious path to weaponization. Any ideas?

Transformation can be used as a weapon, but not to enhance weapons. Unless you could shoot an arrow, vaporize it to go around an obstacle and reform it on the other side?

Edited March 5, 2020 by FantasyFanitic

[+Oltux72]

1 minute ago, FantasyFanitic said:

Transformation can be used as a weapon, but not to enhance weapons. Unless you could shoot an arrow, vaporize it to go around an obstacle and reform it on the other side?

That gives me an idea. Take a metal tube closed at one end. Bore a small hole into it near the closed end. Press hot wax into it, until a bit protudes through the hole you have bored. Press a bullet into the wax. The Soulcaster turns the wax into air with a transformation that retains mass. Bang - you have a gun.

[Bigmikey357]

55 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That gives me an idea. Take a metal tube closed at one end. Bore a small hole into it near the closed end. Press hot wax into it, until a bit protudes through the hole you have bored. Press a bullet into the wax. The Soulcaster turns the wax into air with a transformation that retains mass. Bang - you have a gun.

A dart would work better than a bullet. You  aren't going to get enough velocity to penetrate anything tougher than skin anyway,  might as well get the benefit of stealth and discrete poisoning. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

Use Abrasion on a projectile and it will penetrate through an almost limitless number of targets.

Use Gravity on a spiked log to roll it through an enemy formation.

Combo time. Use lateral Gravity on two weights at slightly oblique angles to one another. Connect them with a fine metal wire and coat it with Abrasion. Directed at the enemy ranks, it should cut them all in half or decapitate them depending on how high off the ground you launched it.

[Bookish Ocelot]

Not really a weapon, but if you combined an Edgedancer's abrasion and a Windrunner or Skybreaker's gravitation, you could create some kind of sledge that could go reallllllyyyyy fast. (no friction + unlimited acceleration)

Could be useful as transportation or battering ram. 

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Guns would be tempting. But the choice would be wrong. The accelerations you can get are too low. A small mass will not achieve killing energies. And aim is a problem. What can be done? I would suggest a javelin in a tube. With Gravitation you cannot get high speeds, so for momentum you need mass. But accelerating a heavy object is not an issue, given enough Stormlight. So I'd use a tube preferably with holes and an open back , which has to be as straight as possible. Put a javelin into it, add a few feathered vanes to it and lash it to go forward. You can add sights to the tube.

Why not a trebuchet?

Since we are working with renaissance tec humankind's best option is usually massed pike men.  Fused  and thunderclasts break this rule.  They are going to need specially trained individuals and methods to fight these.  For fused your best options is probably more radiants who can kill on sight.  For thunderclasts train your soldiers to scatter and reform in an orderly way and have mobile siege weapons that shoot some kind of explosive.  For surge weapon combinations you can make air pressure cannons which I discuss below are a good option.  I was thinking of fabrails at the time but just having a windrunner do it works as well.

 

[+Oltux72]

On 06/03/2020 at 4:32 AM, Karger said:

Why not a trebuchet?

Aiming, mobility, rate of fire, lack of novelty.

On 06/03/2020 at 4:32 AM, Karger said:

Since we are working with renaissance tec humankind's best option is usually massed pike men.

AFAICT pike formations were geared to repulsing cavalry. A Thunderclast may be seen as a Rosharan equivalent, but pikes won't work against them. Against massed infantry they are unlikely to work as well.

On 06/03/2020 at 4:32 AM, Karger said:

  Fused  and thunderclasts break this rule.  They are going to need specially trained individuals and methods to fight these.  For fused your best options is probably more radiants who can kill on sight.  For thunderclasts train your soldiers to scatter and reform in an orderly way and have mobile siege weapons that shoot some kind of explosive.

Again mobility. You won't have them in many cases. The method with ropes and hammers actually looks quite sensible as long as grenades are not an option.

On 06/03/2020 at 4:32 AM, Karger said:

  For surge weapon combinations you can make air pressure cannons which I discuss below are a good option

These will work, but again mobility. Any gun requires materials withstanding high pressures. So building a light cannon is hard.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

AFAICT pike formations were geared to repulsing cavalry.

Massed pike men can repulse basically any melee attack provided that they are trained and in formation.  The only thing they really can't stand up against is gunfire or artillery.  They do however work well against massed infantry as you can keep your opponents at a distance while inflicting damage.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Again mobility. You won't have them in many cases. The method with ropes and hammers actually looks quite sensible as long as grenades are not an option.

I think you will need conjoined fabrails to increase mobility.  Ropes and hammers have a really high casualty rate of well trained soldiers.  That is not a sustainable strategy during a desolation.

[Emerald_Mage]

Personally, I think flechettes would be better for gravitation.

Adhesion would probably work well with catapults. Potentially division as well.

A bunch of grass/vine seeds for progression.

[XeGnome]

Progression with dormant seeds.  As the enemy troops pass over the seeds (unseen) the rapid growth traps them making easy fodder for archers.  After the battle you just have to extract the dead bodies from new “crops”.

[Frustration]

On 3/9/2020 at 6:46 AM, Oltux72 said:

Again mobility. You won't have them in many cases. The method with ropes and hammers actually looks quite sensible as long as grenades are not an option.

These will work, but again mobility. Any gun requires materials withstanding high pressures. So building a light cannon is hard.

Use Gravitation to cut the weight.

[+Oltux72]

18 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Use Gravitation to cut the weight.

Works to an extent, nut you will not overcome inertia that way. And your gun becomes even more expensive. You will reach a point, where you better invest all those ressources in a better warhead and an alternative (cheaper) system for launching.

[Blackwarder]

I don’t get why gravity guns aren’t an option, we don’t know what’s the upper limit of lashing you can give an object, and even than if you can keep the bullets running for 10 seconds at 1 lashing running in an ammo drum the bullets will reach a speed of around 850 m/s, the equivalent of ww2 infantry rifles.

even if you can’t make rifles you can still make early Gatling guns equivalent.

 

[Impact]

Hammers that suddenly increase gravity right before impact, kind of like the gravity hammers in Halo 3

[DiePie]

On 3/9/2020 at 9:56 AM, Karger said:

On 3/9/2020 at 8:46 AM, Oltux72 said:

AFAICT pike formations were geared to repulsing cavalry.

Massed pike men can repulse basically any melee attack provided that they are trained and in formation.  The only thing they really can't stand up against is gunfire or artillery.  They do however work well against massed infantry as you can keep your opponents at a distance while inflicting damage.

That's why Pike formations were developed on earth, Knights dominated medieval warfare, but conscripted peasants were needed to keep them from being overwhelmed (very similar to shardplate/blades, Dalinar notes that a shardbearer would eventually be overwhelmed without infantry support). However, these armies were barely better than mobs (since they basically were) because they were poorly trained and poorly armed. Eventually with improved technology (such as pikes and muskets) improved tactics (such as the pike square), and actual training, organized infantry blocks were able to halt a Calvary charge. While the Alethi (probably the most advanced martially of all the countries on Roshar) have individual military training, their tactics aren't nearly as advanced as renaissance Europe (along with their technology, but you probably have figured that out easily enough) and they do not use pikes in open combat (they were used during the siege of Kholinar, but the spears Kaladin uses are much shorter)… The Alethi don't have much formation besides putting men in 2 lines and having them charge into heavy arrowfire, Kaladin's squad was practically immortal because all 30 of them (I checked) could stay together in a fight and hold a formation while the surrounding area devolved into chaos. While the armies of the Oathpact are probably better organized, they still don't know those sorts of tactics. From what we've seen, battles on the shattered plains (or during Dalinar's flashbacks of the wars fought to unite Alethkar) exhibit shardbearers with Infantry support either as Dalinar uses them (as shock troops to soften up enemy lines and give his troops time to secure footholds on the Plateaus) or as Sadeas uses them (as reserves to shore up faltering areas in his lines)

On 3/14/2020 at 6:44 AM, Blackwarder said:

I don’t get why gravity guns aren’t an option, we don’t know what’s the upper limit of lashing you can give an object, and even than if you can keep the bullets running for 10 seconds at 1 lashing running in an ammo drum the bullets will reach a speed of around 850 m/s, the equivalent of ww2 infantry rifles.

reading through this thread I assumed it's because it would take too long to accelerate to that point... While after 10 seconds it would reach that speed, bullets start out going that fast, hitting almost instantly, so in that time an enemy could avoid the bullet, also the lack of precision (but you found a way around that with Gatling guns)… But I think that larger projectiles that are harder to avoid (for example, things launched from trebuchets or catapults, or a spiked log, or a string that could fit though any gap (even the ones in between your cells or cell walls) stretching the entire width of the battlefield.

 

But I was thinking that you could make a basic version tank with the surges... Using Abrasion you could remove the need for wheels by making it able to slide, or you could use a basic lashing to make it weightless (or weigh significantly less). then you could have people inside pushing it around, firing Arrows, or other Abrasive projectiles.

Division could be used to set opposing armies' clothing alight, or to make arrows catch fire while soaring towards your enemies to make any hit a guaranteed kill (remember that Roshar has significantly higher oxygen content than Earth, so things (like people or their clothing) will burn much easier).

Division/Transformation/Cohesion could be used to make defensive fortifications (such as trenches or a bulwark), or could be used to destroy the ground underneath your opponents. 

Cohesion/Tension could be used to destroy or damage unrepairably an opponent's weapons or armor (imagine a surgebinder with cohesion or tension going into the enemy camp before a battle and turning all of their weapons into vague blobs of material)

[Karger]

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

and they do not use pikes in open combat (they were used during the siege of Kholinar, but the spears Kaladin uses are much shorter)… The Alethi don't have much formation besides putting men in 2 lines and having them charge into heavy arrowfire, Kaladin's squad was practically immortal because all 30 of them (I checked) could stay together in a fight and hold a formation while the surrounding area devolved into chaos. While the armies of the Oathpact are probably better organized, they still don't know those sorts of tactics. From what we've seen, battles on the shattered plains (or during Dalinar's flashbacks of the wars fought to unite Alethkar) exhibit shardbearers with Infantry support either as Dalinar uses them (as shock troops to soften up enemy lines and give his troops time to secure footholds on the Plateaus) or as Sadeas uses them (as reserves to shore up faltering areas in his lines)

As you noted.  Kaladin's squad in Amaram's army were made up of dregs.  As to Dalinar's shattered plains army.  Massed pikemen might get into trouble with mobility under those geographic conditions.  Dalinar's early army also was not modern in any real sense of the word I think the best example of a real proffesional army is here

Quote

Gavilar’s archers released flights of arrows. Kalanor’s men were well trained; they maintained their formations beneath the deadly hail. Eventually they met Kholin heavy infantry: a block of men so armored that it might as well have been solid stone. At the same time, mobile archer units sprang out to the sides. Lightly armored, they were fast. If the Kholins won this battle—and Dalinar was confident of victory—it would be because of the newer battlefield tactics they’d been exploring.

The enemy army found itself flanked—arrows pounding the sides of their assault blocks. Their lines stretched, the infantry trying to reach the archers, but that weakened the central block, which suffered a beating from the heavy infantry. Standard spearman blocks engaged enemy units as much to position them as to do them harm.
 

Which sounds to me a lot like the standard tactics employed during the thirty years war of tightly packed pike men(staying in formation is not really that effective with other types of melee weaponry).  Kaladin also makes a comment about how the most important part of being a solder is learning how to march correctly in sync with your fellows.

  As a side note the pay and training of a large number of these men is easier then archers or sword mastery which is really difficult and requires several years of constant practice.  I wonder what it will do to the Vorin social structure.

2 hours ago, DiePie said:

But I was thinking that you could make a basic version tank with the surges... Using Abrasion you could remove the need for wheels by making it able to slide, or you could use a basic lashing to make it weightless (or weigh significantly less). then you could have people inside pushing it around, firing Arrows, or other Abrasive projectiles.

I like where this is going but it needs refinement.  This type of tank could be pushed over or slid down an incline by a lone individual using mussel power.

3 hours ago, DiePie said:

Division could be used to set opposing armies' clothing alight, or to make arrows catch fire while soaring towards your enemies to make any hit a guaranteed kill (remember that Roshar has significantly higher oxygen content than Earth, so things (like people or their clothing) will burn much easier).

Roshar is also a wetter place and clothing might be made with combustion in mind(flame retardant).  If an arrow hits you I don't think it matters much weather or not it is on fire when it does and regardless of oxygen fire still would take time and the enemy could probably just pat it out. 

3 hours ago, DiePie said:

Division/Transformation/Cohesion could be used to make defensive fortifications (such as trenches or a bulwark), or could be used to destroy the ground underneath your opponents. 

If we combine them with windrunners for mobility we could have a really fun elsecaller video game where they create fortifications and destroy them all over the battlefield. 

3 hours ago, DiePie said:

Cohesion/Tension could be used to destroy or damage unrepairably an opponent's weapons or armor (imagine a surgebinder with cohesion or tension going into the enemy camp before a battle and turning all of their weapons into vague blobs of material)

I recommend doing the same thing to the food and gemstone reserves. 

[DiePie]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Quote

Gavilar’s archers released flights of arrows. Kalanor’s men were well trained; they maintained their formations beneath the deadly hail. Eventually they met Kholin heavy infantry: a block of men so armored that it might as well have been solid stone. At the same time, mobile archer units sprang out to the sides. Lightly armored, they were fast. If the Kholins won this battle—and Dalinar was confident of victory—it would be because of the newer battlefield tactics they’d been exploring.

The enemy army found itself flanked—arrows pounding the sides of their assault blocks. Their lines stretched, the infantry trying to reach the archers, but that weakened the central block, which suffered a beating from the heavy infantry. Standard spearman blocks engaged enemy units as much to position them as to do them harm.
 

Which sounds to me a lot like the standard tactics employed during the thirty years war of tightly packed pike men(staying in formation is not really that effective with other types of melee weaponry).  Kaladin also makes a comment about how the most important part of being a solder is learning how to march correctly in sync with your fellows.

yeah I completely forgot about that... I would have thought the idea that the Kholin family won because of new battlefield tactics would have stuck in my head better.

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

Kaladin also makes a comment about how the most important part of being a solder is learning how to march correctly in sync with your fellows

I think I've heard jokes about how most of the life of a soldier is spent not fighting, so I feel like this is a reference to that. However, it also seems to attest to Alethi discipline, which makes sense considering how much fighting they've been doing.

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

I wonder what it will do to the Vorin social structure.

after a few thousand years of increasingly competitive warfare... I'm sure darkeyed infantry are like 1st or 2nd Nahn or something.

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

I recommend doing the same thing to the food and gemstone reserves. 

food may not be as important, but destroying soulcasters or gemstones would be effectively cutting off their supply lines, since they would not be able to make food (and army's need  a lot of food)

20 minutes ago, Karger said:

3 hours ago, DiePie said:

But I was thinking that you could make a basic version tank with the surges... Using Abrasion you could remove the need for wheels by making it able to slide, or you could use a basic lashing to make it weightless (or weigh significantly less). then you could have people inside pushing it around, firing Arrows, or other Abrasive projectiles.

I like where this is going but it needs refinement.  This type of tank could be pushed over or slid down an incline by a lone individual using mussel power.

I was thinking to either make the "tank" weightless (or have like a 3/4 lashing and use abrasion to keep it sliding so it can't be pushed around by a projectile or something) and have people push it around, or just use abrasion and then move it around with lashings

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, DiePie said:

yeah I completely forgot about that... I would have thought the idea that the Kholin family won because of new battlefield tactics would have stuck in my head better.

Happens all the time don't worry.

3 minutes ago, DiePie said:

I think I've heard jokes about how most of the life of a soldier is spent not fighting, so I feel like this is a reference to that. However, it also seems to attest to Alethi discipline, which makes sense considering how much fighting they've been doing.

It is also very true for training pike men.  They need to stay in sync to work effectively. 

4 minutes ago, DiePie said:

after a few thousand years of increasingly competitive warfare... I'm sure darkeyed infantry are like 1st or 2nd Nahn or something.

They are not actually.  Only the darkeyed officers are.  For some reason the Lighteyes seem a bit nervous of giving to much acclaim to the average grunt soldier.

6 minutes ago, DiePie said:

I was thinking to either make the "tank" weightless (or have like a 3/4 lashing and use abrasion to keep it sliding so it can't be pushed around by a projectile or something) and have people push it around, or just use abrasion and then move it around with lashings

Right but what happens when a small group of people push it back the other way?   

[DiePie]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

8 minutes ago, DiePie said:

I was thinking to either make the "tank" weightless (or have like a 3/4 lashing and use abrasion to keep it sliding so it can't be pushed around by a projectile or something) and have people push it around, or just use abrasion and then move it around with lashings

Right but what happens when a small group of people push it back the other way?

That's why I wanted to use Lashings to move it around, it would be a lot harder to push around a Chull shell with a full lashing than one that just has a few people inside pushing it. And since we're not worried about weight with this, we could soulcast something the size of a room, make it abrasive and basically have a moving HQ so long as there is someone to manage the basic lashings.

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, DiePie said:

That's why I wanted to use Lashings to move it around, it would be a lot harder to push around a Chull shell with a full lashing than one that just has a few people inside pushing it. And since we're not worried about weight with this, we could soulcast something the size of a room, make it abrasive and basically have a moving HQ so long as there is someone to manage the basic lashings.

That is workable.  Although I think we should stop calling them tanks and think of them more like mobile fortifications.  We could have a low wall and an overhanging one with a gap for pikemen or archers.

[+Oltux72]

4 hours ago, Karger said:

That is workable.  Although I think we should stop calling them tanks and think of them more like mobile fortifications.  We could have a low wall and an overhanging one with a gap for pikemen or archers.

It would not be stable under a much altered vector of gravity. The center of gravity would shift to the new "down". And then you land. Not a nice prospect.

[DiePie]

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

It would not be stable under a much altered vector of gravity. The center of gravity would shift to the new "down". And then you land. Not a nice prospect.

The Idea is that we're always on the ground, but using Abrasion to slide while periodic lashings pull us along. So long as the lashing doesn't affect the people on the 'mobile fortification', they will have enough weight to push it into the ground

[+Oltux72]

18 hours ago, DiePie said:

The Idea is that we're always on the ground, but using Abrasion to slide while periodic lashings pull us along. So long as the lashing doesn't affect the people on the 'mobile fortification', they will have enough weight to push it into the ground

That does not safe you. You have an armored platform. That is a lot heavier than a few people. Even dozens of people.
If the platform itself were weightless, you would be right. But it isn't, the vector is just altered. Suppose your platform is heavier on a side off the center line with respect to your gravity vector, and it will be. Your mobile platform will immediately start spinning, if you are lucky. If you are unlucky, it will flip over. That will happen if you ever get top heavy. That can happen if you hit a bump or a ditch.