Is it possible to truely capture a Raidiant

[Pathfinder]

Still a lot we don't know to be sure. We don't know how shardplate for a radiant works. Does it require stormlight to summon? Does it require stormlight to maintain? If so, then a larkin eating all the stormlight so the radiant has nothing to draw on, coupled with thick strong aluminum chains should hold the radiant. The only issue that comes into play there, is the locking mechanism. If you soulcast the chains, and do not leave a locking mechanism, then there is no way to remove the chains, as aluminum is supremely hard to soulcast into anything else. If you include a locking mechanism, you have to worry about the radiant seeing what the key looks like, and using the shardblade shaped as the key to open it. So theoretically another type of locking mechanism would need to be employed. I would need to investigate what would be possible in that vein. 

 

edit: of course! use a combination lock. Just would need a way to hide the code from the radiant and spren observing when opening and closing it. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

22 minutes ago, Lucky MOPper said:

Climb down the tower? Unless you're envisioning holding them with a rod connected to a cage, in which case they can climb on the rod. They can make handholds with their shardblade as they go.

The tower has a shear face.  Think how long it would take to climb half a mile strait up and if you have aluminum bound hands then you can't manifest a blade or climb easily.

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

If you soulcast the chains, and do not leave a locking mechanism, then there is no way to remove the chains, as aluminum is supremely hard to soulcast into anything else

Just melt off the chains with conventional means when needed.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Karger

[Lucky MOPper]

6 minutes ago, Karger said:

Think how long it would take to climb half a mile strait up and if you have aluminum bound hands then you can't manifest a blade or climb easily.

Why wouldn't they be able to manifest their blade, which would then be able to cut the aluminum? Yes, I know aluminum is not easy to cut with a shardblade, but a live blade that the spren could make extremely sharp? That should be able to do it.

[Pathfinder]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

Just melt off the chains with conventional means when needed.

True, though unless you intend to now let the radiant go, you would either have to give them stormlight to heal and survive the procedure without them losing their arms which would risk them using their powers to escape, or only allow an edgedancer/truthwatcher already holding stormlight in their body (not in gemstones), to heal the radiant while you melt the chains. It could be considered cruel and unusual. All just so you could theoretically move the radiant from one prison location to another. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

12 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It could be considered cruel and unusual. All just so you could theoretically move the radiant from one prison location to another. 

Humans can remove them with the correct tools.  Aluminum is a soft metal.

27 minutes ago, Lucky MOPper said:

Why wouldn't they be able to manifest their blade, which would then be able to cut the aluminum? Yes, I know aluminum is not easy to cut with a shardblade, but a live blade that the spren could make extremely sharp? That should be able to do it.

Aluminum is resistant to all investiture.  The spren should not be able to pass into the hand of the prisoner.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

5 minutes ago, Karger said:

Humans can remove them with the correct tools.  Aluminum is a soft metal.

In order to hold the radiant, the aluminum would have to be alloyed with a metal to be strong enough to prevent that. If it was possible for tools to break the bindings, then the radiant could have the spren turn into that tool and break it themselves. So the bindings would have to be resistant to breakage. 

 

edit: I think in order to hold a radiant, you would need a few things

 

1. deprive them of stormlight

2. have bindings that cannot be cut by a shardblade

3. having bindings that cannot be opened via the spren transforming into a tool to break or object to open (key)

4. (assuming you are holding them legally), the means of holding them has to be ethical

Edited March 5, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Lucky MOPper]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Aluminum is resistant to all investiture.  The spren should not be able to pass into the hand of the prisoner.

I don't think the spren needs to be touching his hands to be a blade, and do you mean bound as in handcuffs or gloves?

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

In order to hold the radiant, the aluminum would have to be alloyed with a metal to be strong enough to prevent that.

I don't think that will affect a blade with an edge an atom thick.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Lucky MOPper

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Lucky MOPper said:

I don't think that will affect a blade with an edge an atom thick.

Last I checked, a sprenblade and shardblade are not an atom thick (if you recall where it is said, please let me know. i love learning new things). It is the magical nature of the blade that it cuts through anything via phasing through the object. Not determinant on thickness. The blade can also get caught in what it is cutting if you pause. So if I were to make a slice in a wall, but did not follow fully through, the blade could get jammed in the wall. Dalinar speaks of this in the novel. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Lucky MOPper]

Just now, Pathfinder said:

Last I checked, a sprenblade and shardblade are not an atom thick.

No, I am saying that the spren can change its shape to be one atom thick.

[SwordNimiForPresident]

1 hour ago, Booknerd said:

then they can't breath.

Drill a hole in it until you hit their face, you would need a way to get Stormlight to them anyway since they would have third degree burns all over their body and to keep them from starving.

Edited March 5, 2020 by SwordNimiForPresident

[Pathfinder]

47 minutes ago, Lucky MOPper said:

No, I am saying that the spren can change its shape to be one atom thick.

I know there is a WoB that states there is a limit to how big a shardblade could get. This lends me to believe there is a limit to how small, but I do not believe there is anything explcit stating so. If theoretically a sprenblade could get that thin, then I do not think there is a way to hold a radiant. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

I was wrong, the best way would be to nail an aluminum spike through their heart with the intent of removing their powers. Then heal them with Progression and lock them in a mundane prison.

[Pathfinder]

11 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I was wrong, the best way would be to nail an aluminum spike through their heart with the intent of removing their powers. Then heal them with Progression and lock them in a mundane prison.

That does raise an interesting question. In order to do that, you have to rip the bond out of them. WoB say that if you do that, the spren can still choose to voluntarily end the bond. That potentially would then leave the spren free to rebond the radiant. 

[SwordNimiForPresident]

27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That does raise an interesting question. In order to do that, you have to rip the bond out of them. WoB say that if you do that, the spren can still choose to voluntarily end the bond. That potentially would then leave the spren free to rebond the radiant. 

It would put the Spren into a fugue state if they broke their bond wouldn’t it?

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

It would put the Spren into a fugue state if they broke their bond wouldn’t it?

Potentially. It might matter at what oath the captive radiant is when the spiking occurs. Theoretically the individual could bond another spren since the bond was forcibly ripped away, and the captive didn't technically break any of his or her oaths. The healing from regrowth would restore the person back to bondable status I believe. So the captive radiant may not even need to rebond the original spren. Not writing this to say you are wrong or right. Just thinking on the concepts. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Pathfinder

[SwordNimiForPresident]

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Potentially. It might matter at what oath the captive radiant is when the spiking occurs. Theoretically the individual could bond another spren since the bond was forcibly ripped away, and the captive didn't technically break any of his or her oaths. The healing from regrowth would restore the person back to bondable status I believe. So the captive radiant may not even need to rebond the original spren. Not writing this to say you are wrong or right. Just thinking on the concepts. 

I suppose in the long term they would be likely to draw a Spren given that they already did once. They could easily break out with the Stormlight surge they would get from reswearing their oaths. Also, given that they already progressed through the paths once, they might already be in a place where they can swear the all at once. For this reason, I would advocate cutting out their eyes, ears and tongue, as well as destroying their voice box. Also cut of their hands just in case. All this would be done after their initial healing which saved them from the stab wound in the heart. It might also be worth damaging their brains enough to keep them docile but not kill them. Maybe cut out pieces until they die and then heal back to just before death? Seems like it could work.

[Pathfinder]

39 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I suppose in the long term they would be likely to draw a Spren given that they already did once. They could easily break out with the Stormlight surge they would get from reswearing their oaths. Also, given that they already progressed through the paths once, they might already be in a place where they can swear the all at once. For this reason, I would advocate cutting out their eyes, ears and tongue, as well as destroying their voice box. Also cut of their hands just in case. All this would be done after their initial healing which saved them from the stab wound in the heart. It might also be worth damaging their brains enough to keep them docile but not kill them. Maybe cut out pieces until they die and then heal back to just before death? Seems like it could work.

Lol, so I was operating on the premise that you would want to hold them as prisoner for judgement or such so mutilating the captive would not be preferable. But sure you could do all of that, and assuming you don't wait too long, all of it could be healed back to normal so they could appear for trial. Though I am pretty sure that would fall under cruel and unusual punishment lol. 

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I suppose in the long term they would be likely to draw a Spren given that they already did once. They could easily break out with the Stormlight surge they would get from reswearing their oaths. Also, given that they already progressed through the paths once, they might already be in a place where they can swear the all at once. For this reason, I would advocate cutting out their eyes, ears and tongue, as well as destroying their voice box. Also cut of their hands just in case. All this would be done after their initial healing which saved them from the stab wound in the heart. It might also be worth damaging their brains enough to keep them docile but not kill them. Maybe cut out pieces until they die and then heal back to just before death? Seems like it could work.

 

2 hours ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

I was wrong, the best way would be to nail an aluminum spike through their heart with the intent of removing their powers. Then heal them with Progression and lock them in a mundane prison.

Then they wouldn't be Raidiant.

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Lol, so I was operating on the premise that you would want to hold them as prisoner for judgement or such so mutilating the captive would not be preferable. But sure you could do all of that, and assuming you don't wait too long, all of it could be healed back to normal so they could appear for trial. Though I am pretty sure that would fall under cruel and unusual punishment lol. 

Well if you have them legally imprisoned then skybreakers at least can't leave regardless that's why I said escape would not break an Oath.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

Well if you have them legally imprisoned then skybreakers at least can't leave regardless that's why I said escape would not break an Oath.

Then I guess the question I would pose to you since you are the architect of this scenario is does the radiant being held have to be kept healthy and whole, or does the means swordnimi mentioned are allowable/on the table? Same thing with karger. Because if that is the case, then holding a radiant becomes much easier. 

Edited March 5, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Lucky MOPper]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I know there is a WoB that states there is a limit to how big a shardblade could get. This lends me to believe there is a limit to how small, but I do not believe there is anything explcit stating so. If theoretically a sprenblade could get that thin, then I do not think there is a way to hold a radiant. 

But it wouldn't necessarily be getting smaller, just sharper.

17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Then I guess the question I would pose to you since you are the architect of this scenario is does the radiant being held have to be kept healthy and whole, or does the means swordnimi mentioned are allowable/on the table? Same thing with karger. Because if that is the case, then holding a radiant becomes much easier. 

But then you could chop his arms off and not give him stormlight. Little good a shardblade does if you don't have arms.

Edited March 5, 2020 by Lucky MOPper

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Lucky MOPper said:

But it wouldn't necessarily be getting smaller, just sharper.

The edge would be. The question would be could a spren manifest a portion of themselves physically on the physical plane to be thinner than an atom to cut between them. I do not think they can. But nothing explicitly say they cannot. 

[Frustration]

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Then I guess the question I would pose to you since you are the architect of this scenario is does the radiant being held have to be kept healthy and whole, or does the means swordnimi mentioned are allowable/on the table? Same thing with karger. Because if that is the case, then holding a radiant becomes much easier. 

Mutilation is on the Table but no Hemalurgy, they need to be radiant.

6 hours ago, Lucky MOPper said:

The question is basically can we capture their spren. I don't think we know enough about the Cognitive realm yet to know yet though.

Couldn't they still transition to the physical realm?

 

Yes, but how much? it would not be feasible to hold them hundreds of feet in the air.

In the air they can get stormlight during Highstorms.

23 minutes ago, Lucky MOPper said:

 

But then you could chop his arms off and not give him stormlight. Little good a shardblade does if you don't have arms.

Plate would still be viable

[Karger]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

In order to hold the radiant, the aluminum would have to be alloyed with a metal to be strong enough to prevent that. If it was possible for tools to break the bindings, then the radiant could have the spren turn into that tool and break it themselves. So the bindings would have to be resistant to breakage. 

The radiant would have to be able to hold the tools.  Remember they can't use their hands and the human jaw is not great for this kind of thing(although I suppose we could muzzle them as well).  Some kind of careful heating combined with the right tools should get rid of the manacles.

4 hours ago, Lucky MOPper said:

No, I am saying that the spren can change its shape to be one atom thick.

Even if they can I don't think they could cut aluminum.  Aluminum creates an anti investiture field.  Spren are investiture.  It would be like running into a force field.

[Frustration]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

 

Even if they can I don't think they could cut aluminum.  Aluminum creates an anti investiture field.  Spren are investiture.  It would be like running into a force field.

Brandon has not yet decided weather or not shardblades could have a normal cutting effect on aluminum so that's an iffy argument

[Karger]

Just now, Booknerd said:

Brandon has not yet decided weather or not shardblades could have a normal cutting effect on aluminum so that's an iffy argument

Brandon has also not decided on weather shardblades can get thin enough to cut through metal without issue so that is an equally iffy argument.