Passion

Tales honor blade

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Hi I’m really confused. I was so busy wondering who could have gotten hold of his honor blade that I only just realized I’m missing a basic Honorblade fact. It is said the sword takes heralds who survive desolations to braize, how? Where does it go while Taln was on braise?and how does he get it back when he returns to Roshar?

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Posted (edited)

We don't know, we know that the Honorblades were part of the Oathpact but how the system works might not even be revealed till Taln & Ash's books come out, though one can hope for some tidbits in the next book since Jasnah caught them at the end of OB

Edited by Dreamer
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5 hours ago, Passion said:

Hi I’m really confused. I was so busy wondering who could have gotten hold of his honor blade that I only just realized I’m missing a basic Honorblade fact. It is said the sword takes heralds who survive desolations to braize, how? Where does it go while Taln was on braise?and how does he get it back when he returns to Roshar?

We dont really know any of the details, though we're being told we'll get a lot more of the Herald story in flashback during the back 5 books.  What little we do know is that when they are  killed (or choose to leave) at the end of the desolation, they get sent to Braize.  Once there they are hunted down and then tortured.  When one of them "breaks" they come back and the next desolation begins.  What that actually looks like, what they when they "break" to actually trigger the return, and what happens to their Blade during that time are all unknowns at the moment. 

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My idea is that it stays with him because it acts an the engine of the Oathpact; so my idea is that the Oathpact itself was broken when they abandoned their Honorblades, not because they abandoned the duty. This is highly speculative though and I could be wrong, and I hope some of it gets revealed through Ash.

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8 hours ago, Passion said:

Hi I’m really confused. I was so busy wondering who could have gotten hold of his honor blade that I only just realized I’m missing a basic Honorblade fact. It is said the sword takes heralds who survive desolations to braize, how? Where does it go while Taln was on braise?and how does he get it back when he returns to Roshar?

If your wondering where it went and got replaced by a shardblade, my personal theory is Hoid took it.

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1 hour ago, Booknerd said:

If your wondering where it went and got replaced by a shardblade, my personal theory is Hoid took it.

There's a WoB (I would quote it, but I'm super bad at finding WoB's) that states that Hoid at one point had the honorblade, but it's not in his possession anymore.

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Posted (edited)

3 minutes ago, XaviGzz said:

There's a WoB (I would quote it, but I'm super bad at finding WoB's) that states that Hoid at one point had the honorblade, but it's not in his possession anymore.

I'll check

Alright Edit

I'm actually wrong WoB

Spoiler

Questioner

At the very end of Words of Radiance, Dalinar touches a Shardblade and it screams at him. Shouldn't that particular Blade have been safe?

Brandon Sanderson

No it should not have. It's a clue that something has happened.

[...]

[This is] a question that the subtle reader should be asking. And there are other clues that something is wrong with what the story you've been told is.

Questioner

Because Option 2 is that it's unsafe to touch an honorblade, but there's no evidence of that.

Brandon Sanderson

There is no evidence of that. In fact there's much stronger evidence that something else is going on.

Questioner 2

Did Hoid switch out the blades?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid did not switch out the blades, but good question.

Words of Radiance San Francisco signing (March 6, 2014)

 

Edited by Booknerd
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Posted (edited)

29 minutes ago, XaviGzz said:

There's a WoB (I would quote it, but I'm super bad at finding WoB's) that states that Hoid at one point had the honorblade, but it's not in his possession anymore.

Actually, there is a WoB saying that Hoid did NOT take the Honorblade (which Booknerd quoted), and one that says he has no Honorblades. Part of that latter one does include a kinda-RAFO on whether he's ever had an Honorblade. Perhaps that's what you're remembering?

Quote

Questioner

The Herald of War at the end of Way of Kings-- I assume he had an Honorblade with him?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

Okay... So when Dalinar had the sword that he gave up...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

...for the Stormfather it actually cried, which it typically happens if there's spren in the sword, which means that was not an Honorblade, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, and if you look they're described differently!

Questioner

Which means somebody else has the sword, correct?

Brandon Sanderson

The sword was switched out!

Questioner

Probably by Wit. I'm not going to ask you for spoilers, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Wit does not have the sword.

Questioner

No!?

Brandon Sanderson

But... I can't-- I dunno if I've told people whether or not he at one point had the sword... But he does not have the sword now.

White Sand vol.1 release party (June 28, 2016)

Quote

Questioner

Does Hoid have two Honorblades?

Brandon Sanderson

Hoid has no Honorblades.

Questioner

Whats wrong on both counts, actually? Brandon gave them to him, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Currently has no Honorblades.

Salt Lake City signing (March 29, 2014)

 

Edited by RShara
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2 minutes ago, RShara said:

Actually, there is a WoB saying that Hoid did NOT take the Honorblade (which Booknerd quoted), and one that says he has no Honorblades. Part of that latter one does include a kinda-RAFO on whether he's ever had an Honorblade. Perhaps that's what you're remembering?

 

"But... I can't-- I dunno if I've told people whether or not he at one point had the sword... But he does not have the sword now."

i took his answer of "he does not have the sword now" as he had the honorblade at one point, not now.

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2 minutes ago, XaviGzz said:

"But... I can't-- I dunno if I've told people whether or not he at one point had the sword... But he does not have the sword now."

i took his answer of "he does not have the sword now" as he had the honorblade at one point, not now.

Yeah, sorry, that's what I meant. That you were thinking of him saying that as saying that Hoid had it at some point. He does sound like he's hinting that Hoid had it at one point, but he doesn't confirm it.

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It's worth remembering that Brandon is up-front about the fact that sometimes a RAFO really means 'I could answer this but I like to watch you tie yourselves in knots, MWAHAHA' so something like '(Hoid) currently has no Honorblades' could mean 'He had one once but doesn't any more' but it could just as easily mean 'He never had any but I enjoy the seeds of uncertainty I'm sowing by hinting otherwise'. :D

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If the oathpact was broken by their leaving their blades and was kept alive at all only by Taln still  keeping his part of the deal how is this affected by Nale taking back his blade. (I can’t remember where I got this from but I’m pretty sure it implies in the book that at some point around the time he decided to become radient a second Honorblade disappeared from the shin who held the blades.) is he now holding up the oathpact as well. He doesn’t seem to have gone to braize and he still seems quite crazy?!

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10 hours ago, Passion said:

If the oathpact was broken by their leaving their blades and was kept alive at all only by Taln still  keeping his part of the deal how is this affected by Nale taking back his blade. (I can’t remember where I got this from but I’m pretty sure it implies in the book that at some point around the time he decided to become radient a second Honorblade disappeared from the shin who held the blades.) is he now holding up the oathpact as well. He doesn’t seem to have gone to braize and he still seems quite crazy?!

They thought they'd broken the Oathpact by refusing to go back to Braize at the end of that Desolation. I think leaving the Honorblades was more symbolic than mechanical.

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The blades are what that lets them forget the torture steadying their mind by connecting to Spiritual Realm, That's why Nale was still able to perform his duties. But other Heralds gave up the blades and gave up the Oathpact in turn their Oaths to Honor was betrayed. 

This in turn made Honor change but there is still hope in the case of Taln as he upheld the Oathpact honourably and now he is back. If his Honorblade is returned to him then he will gain awareness and won't be a rambling madman.

Honor changing is also mentioned as reason for Sibling slumbering. I think the Heralds were also entrusted with the keeping of Oathgates gemstones. 

Knights Radiant were a byproduct of spren copying what Honor did. It wasn't Honor's intention to create Knight Radiants. His plan include just Heralds and men. 

When they say Honor is dead . What does it actually mean. I think Honor is only present in the Physical Realm now. He was present in the Cognitive Realm before but I think he got pushed out due to some action that required a lot of Investiture.  

He realised his original plan wasn't working. The Heralds were bringing Desolations more easily by succumbing to torture more easily than before.

Also humans were loosing more technology and culture with each passing desolations. So he had to do something to ensure victory to humans. 

The strategic importance of Urithiru as a command center cannot be stressed. Whomsoever controls Urithiru controls Roshar. So Honor created Urithiru with the help of Cultivation. Honor was already heavily invested in Roshar. This action further lessens his power and pushes him to the Physical Realm and into his biggest Spren. This is the reason in the Cognitive Realm highstorm is very light.

The act of making Urithiru also weakened Cultivation. But she is at present like Dominion and Devotion. Confined to cognitive realm I guess. As in she can hurt Odium if he comes to the Physical Realm and tries to hurt the vessel of Honor. Hence the reason Odium fled as soon as Dalinar opened the perpendicularity. 

 

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1 hour ago, Wyndle88 said:

If his Honorblade is returned to him then he will gain awareness and won't be a rambling madman.

This is interesting, but Nale also doubts of his own sanity if I recall correctly, even with his blade. 

We also see on screen other Heralds that, without their honorblade, are functional. 

Maybe the blade helps, but Taln is probably that way because of the amount of time he was tortured continuously.

1 hour ago, Wyndle88 said:

This action further lessens his power and pushes him to the Physical Realm and into his biggest Spren. This is the reason in the Cognitive Realm highstorm is very light.

I don't think I've read anything that suggests this, and a lot that points that he is very dead. The Cognitive Shadow of Honor's vessel was the one that merged with the storms spren, the Stormfather. Which made the stormfather more aware. To be a cognitive shadow, the vessels physical body had to die. And during our time in Shadesmar, the spren are not surprised on the strength of the highstorm, I think it's weak in the CR because it's a reflection of the physical realm.

1 hour ago, Wyndle88 said:

The act of making Urithiru also weakened Cultivation. But she is at present like Dominion and Devotion. Confined to cognitive realm I guess. 

We very clearly see Cultivation in the Physical Realm talking to Dalinar. We have also a WoB that says Taravaningan (probably spelled wrong) met cultivation too, as well as Lift.

Dominion and Devotion are splintered and Odium pushed the investiture to the Cognitive. Cultivation is very much whole.

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Posted (edited)

31 minutes ago, XaviGzz said:

 

We very clearly see Cultivation in the Physical Realm talking to Dalinar. We have also a WoB that says Taravaningan (probably spelled wrong) met cultivation too, as well as Lift.

Dominion and Devotion are splintered and Odium pushed the investiture to the Cognitive. Cultivation is very much whole.

I somehow thought it was the other way around. I thought as Shards weakened their access to the three Realms reduced. 

As in Dominion and Devotion got pushed out of the spiritual and ended influencing just Cognitive and Physical.

In the case of Honor, Tanavast started investure in a lot of projects, like Oathpact and Urithiru ,thus making him more weak  cutting off from spiritual and cognitive realms subsequently and finally so weak that he merged into Stormfather.

So I thought Cultivation was powerful enough to access Cognitive and Physical Realms but not Spiritual. Also She met Dalinar.

If anyone could make me understand how I'm getting it wrong would be much appreciated.

 

Edited by Wyndle88
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1 hour ago, Wyndle88 said:

I somehow thought it was the other way around. I thought as Shards weakened their access to the three Realms reduced. 

As in Dominion and Devotion got pushed out of the spiritual and ended influencing just Cognitive and Physical.

In the case of Honor, Tanavast started investure in a lot of projects, like Oathpact and Urithiru ,thus making him more weak  cutting off from spiritual and cognitive realms subsequently and finally so weak that he merged into Stormfather.

So I thought Cultivation was powerful enough to access Cognitive and Physical Realms but not Spiritual. Also She met Dalinar.

If anyone could make me understand how I'm getting it wrong would be much appreciated.

 

I'll tag part of my reply as a spoiler as we're in the Stormight Archive forum and I'll include some Mistborn and Mistborn Secret History stuff too.

Spoiler

For a good picture of what happens to a shard when weakening/dying, we can see what happens in Mistborn.
Preservation is slowly dying but can still show himself in the Physical (we can see him interact with Vin, and Elend), Cognitive (we can see him interact with Kelsier).
It's probably In a Kelsier OV in SH that he states that Preservation is slowly losing coherency while talking with him while he was trapped in the Well.

Preservation also weakened Ruin by trapping/hiding part of Ruin's body (Atium) from him. But that didn't stop Ruin from also doing it's part and messing with things by appearing in the Physical Realm

The Stormfather says that Honor at the end was rambling about oaths and other stuff, this mimics (if we can believe Kelsier) the way Preservation was losing his mind as he was dying.

I'm not sure at this point there is something that can break the connection of a Shard with the Spiritual Realm, as there is where their power resides

And Shards don't die in a traditional sense, when mortally wounded, because of their power, they take a long time to die, but do start losing their minds. The stormfather tells Dalinar that in the end, Honor was rambling about oaths. When he finally dies, Tanavasts Cognitive Shadow was the one that merged with the Stormfather. A cognitive shadow is the Cognitive representation of the person, while the body is its physical representation. The higher a person is invested, the longer the CS remains in the cognitive realm before passing to the Beyond.

Spoiler

(see Kelsier again) 


Dominion and Devotion's vessels were killed by Odium and to prevent someone else from becoming their vessel, he trapped their power in the cognitive realm, making what we know as the Dor. No one holds these shards, so no physical aspect of them, only what is pushed through the Aons drawn.

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1 hour ago, Wyndle88 said:

In the case of Honor, Tanavast started investure in a lot of projects, like Oathpact and Urithiru ,thus making him more weak  cutting off from spiritual and cognitive realms subsequently and finally so weak that he merged into Stormfather.

The Oathpact, Urithuru, and the spren would not be enough to weaken Honor. A shard has tons of investiture, as shown by

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Presevation and Ruin made an entire planet, and made people, and used up way less than half their power, as Harmony is still much more invested than Odium, who actively avoids investing himself.

 

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9 hours ago, Nameless said:

The Oathpact, Urithuru, and the spren would not be enough to weaken Honor. A shard has tons of investiture, as shown by

Mistborn spoilers:

  Hide contents

Presevation and Ruin made an entire planet, and made people, and used up way less than half their power, as Harmony is still much more invested than Odium, who actively avoids investing himself.

 

You are right that in comparison to creating a planet with all the people on it, The Oathpact & Urithuru would be minuscule. Not sure about the spren, BUT what matters is that it weakened Honor enough that he was no longer a match for Odium. Much like Preservation was slightly weaker than Ruin. Over time the stronger shard finds a way to win. If the creation of the spren continued to weaken Honor and Cultivation, then it makes sense that Odium eventually was able to kill Honor and drive Cultivation into hiding. 

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9 hours ago, Nameless said:

The Oathpact, Urithuru, and the spren would not be enough to weaken Honor. A shard has tons of investiture, as shown by

Mistborn spoilers:

  Hide contents

Presevation and Ruin made an entire planet, and made people, and used up way less than half their power, as Harmony is still much more invested than Odium, who actively avoids investing himself.

 

You are right that in comparison to creating a planet with all the people on it, The Oathpact & Urithuru would be minuscule. Not sure about the spren, BUT what matters is that it weakened Honor enough that he was no longer a match for Odium. Much like Preservation was slightly weaker than Ruin. Over time the stronger shard finds a way to win. If the creation of the spren continued to weaken Honor and Cultivation, then it makes sense that Odium eventually was able to kill Honor and drive Cultivation into hiding. 

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14 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

The blades are what that lets them forget the torture steadying their mind by connecting to Spiritual Realm

Kelek still had his blade during the prologue of WoKs and felt the pain and fear anyway.  Also even with his blade Taln was hardly lucid.

14 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

When they say Honor is dead . What does it actually mean.

He is actually dead.  His Cognitive shadow was absorbed by the stormfather but he is very much dead.

Quote

Questioner

Is Honor still alive?

Brandon Sanderson

Honor? Honor's dead.

Questioner

What about Tanavast?

Brandon Sanderson

So, um, you can assume that there is no funny business going on there.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

14 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

So Honor created Urithiru with the help of Cultivation

We have references to radiants deciding where to build it so that is somewhat doubtful although still possible.

14 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

Confined to cognitive realm I guess

That might kill her.  Shards naturally exist in all three realms and mostly in the spiritual.  Moving a shard from the spiritual realm to the cognitive may be how Odium splintered both.

12 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

I somehow thought it was the other way around. I thought as Shards weakened their access to the three Realms reduced. 

It seems more like their control over their own power is reduced although the only examples we have are on scadrial. 

12 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

In the case of Honor, Tanavast started investure in a lot of projects, like Oathpact and Urithiru ,thus making him more weak  cutting off from spiritual and cognitive realms subsequently and finally so weak that he merged into Stormfather.

mistborn spoilers.

Quote

Doing things with power does not make you weaker any more then putting money in the bank makes people poorer.  The power is still there it is just in use.

Given that shards are omnipresent at all times and at all three levels how would you cut off access to any one realm(this is a really important question as it relates to how Odium kills)?  Also Honor clearly states that Odium killed him.

12 hours ago, Wyndle88 said:

So I thought Cultivation was powerful enough to access Cognitive and Physical Realms but not Spiritual. Also She met Dalinar.

Her future sight was still working so she could clearly use the spiritual realm.  As to how she talked to Dalinar that is something shards can do(sort of warp all three realms I think WoB about it somwhere).

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9 hours ago, Nameless said:

The Oathpact, Urithuru, and the spren would not be enough to weaken Honor. A shard has tons of investiture, as shown by

Mistborn spoilers:

  Hide contents

Presevation and Ruin made an entire planet, and made people, and used up way less than half their power, as Harmony is still much more invested than Odium, who actively avoids investing himself.

 

You are right that in comparison to creating a planet with all the people on it, The Oathpact & Urithuru would be minuscule. Not sure about the spren, BUT what matters is that it weakened Honor enough that he was no longer a match for Odium. Much like Preservation was slightly weaker than Ruin. Over time the stronger shard finds a way to win. If the creation of the spren continued to weaken Honor and Cultivation, then it makes sense that Odium eventually was able to kill Honor and drive Cultivation into hiding. 

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25 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

You are right that in comparison to creating a planet with all the people on it, The Oathpact & Urithuru would be minuscule. Not sure about the spren, BUT what matters is that it weakened Honor enough that he was no longer a match for Odium. Much like Preservation was slightly weaker than Ruin. Over time the stronger shard finds a way to win. If the creation of the spren continued to weaken Honor and Cultivation, then it makes sense that Odium eventually was able to kill Honor and drive Cultivation into hiding. 

Odium killing Honor can be attributed more to how good he is at killing other Shards than Honor being weakened. After all, if it was only a matter of direct strength, then Cultivation+Honor would have been far stronger than Odium and able to kill him easily, even with the creation of the spren. 

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Posted (edited)

On 03/03/2020 at 9:01 PM, The Deity said:

My idea is that it stays with him because it acts an the engine of the Oathpact; so my idea is that the Oathpact itself was broken when they abandoned their Honorblades, not because they abandoned the duty. This is highly speculative though and I could be wrong, and I hope some of it gets revealed through Ash.

I like this theory. That their death takes them to Braize. With their honorblades. Otherwise it would have been recovered once Taln had fallen during Aharitiem. Many people saw him dying. If his Honorblade was available and not taken and hidden by Shin as with the rest of abandoned Honorblades, there would have been some accounts. The Heralds gave up their Honorblades at that time as they knew that by actually touching the blades are how they are transported. So they made sure to stick it into the ground and leave. That action is the actual abandonment both literally and Symbolically.

This also explains how when the other Heralds abandoned the Oathpact, they broke their Oaths as they did something new never before done in previous Desolations. 

But what they didn't anticipate was eventhough Honorblades was the reason they were transported to Braize, it was also the main reason they can withstand the torture. Hence the reason Taln could withstand it for so along but also why all the Heralds are mad. Different levels of mad depending upon the intent of their betrayal. 

I mean these were all Heralds. Each broke previously under torture, so they were scared of going back. So if let's say Kalak didn't want back to go coz he is fed up, then will be more mad. But if Ishar' had other reasons he might be less mad as his intent was less dishonourable let's say.

@Master Silver

@Chaos

There is a theory by chaos on the "Intent of a Shard". I think Master Silver's theory on how Honor's Investiture makes him weak can be explained when a Shards' intent is not aligned with the Investiture. We know Investiture increases and is proportional to the stress the person is in that point. One good example is Dalinar in a super stressful situation outside Thaylen City and since his intent was right was able to produce Honor's Perpendicularity with the amount of Investiture.

Edited by Wyndle88
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@Wyndle88 Do you think it is possible that the Shard Honor had to pour more and more of his investiture into the Heralds to fix the cracks in their spirit webs (craziness) thus weakening him further. I suppose the real question is, when did Odium actually strike the decisive blow against Honor? Before or after the Last Desolation? How long after the last desolation did the Recreance happen? 

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