Retrac

Cognitive shadows and Nightblood

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So what would happen if a cognitive shadow, like a shade or kelsire etc, were to hold Nightblood?

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Posted (edited)

4 minutes ago, Retrac said:

So what would happen if a cognitive shadow, like a shade or kelsire etc, were to hold Nightblood?

Cognitive Shadows are made of investiture. Nightblood eats investiture.   So they would be drained until they died.  Kelsier holding Nightblood is a bit scary for everyone else in the immediate vicinity. 

Quote

Questioner

Would Kelsier be able to wield Nightblood?

Brandon Sanderson

In his current state? That'd be really dangerous.

Questioner

I didn't say "should"! I said "would"! *laughs*

Brandon Sanderson

Briefly.

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Edited by Karger
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Posted (edited)

Yeah, it should be pointed out that Hoid is sufficiently afraid of Nightblood that he wouldn't want to pick it up. It would be even more dangerous for a Cognitive Shadow since they're literally made of Nightblood's food. While a CS that can supply Nightblood with a lot of Investiture can wield it for a time (as we see Vasher do) it's still incredibly dangerous given the exponentially increasing drain. A Shade is not only so weakly manifested in the Physical Realm that they probably couldn't even lift Nightblood but since they don't have any other means of supplying Investiture other than what's keeping them 'alive' the result of one of them trying to touch Nighblood would be one sword nomming one soul, game over man, game over.

Edited by Weltall
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Posted (edited)

22 minutes ago, Karger said:

Cognitive Shadows are made of investiture. Nightblood eats investiture.   So they would be drained until they died.  Kelsier holding Nightblood is a bit scary for everyone else in the immediate vicinity. 

Technically this is what Nightblood would do even to a living person, too: draining their "spark of life" after all other sources of Investiture are drained.

So far we've only seen highly Invested people draw Nightblood - either Vasher with over 100 Breaths in him, or Szeth holding Stormlight with infused spheres at the ready for more... I would think any normal human who drew Nightblood would quickly get "eaten".

I also wonder exactly what Brandon meant by Kelsier "in his current state" (this WOB was from... right after the Oathbringer release?). A simple Cognitive Shadow in the CR, as he was in Secret History, or as one that's found a foothold in the Physical realm (as he would be as "The Sovereign" that we've not seen on-screen yet but for a short POV coppermind memory in Era 2)?

Because if the Heralds, the Fused, and the Returned are also essentially Cognitive Shadows with Physical presence, we've seen that they can hold Investiture. In fact, Vasher is a Returned and thus a kind of Cognitive Shadow as well, and he can feed Nightblood with extra Breath (or Stormlight). So it seems a returned-to-Physical Kelsier who is still a Mistborn and can burn metals again should be able to safely wield Nightblood, assuming he had enough metal on hand... Right?

 

Edited by robardin
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Posted (edited)

11 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Yeah, it should be pointed out that Hoid is sufficiently afraid of Nightblood that he wouldn't want to pick it up. It would be even more dangerous for a Cognitive Shadow since they're literally made of Nightblood's food. While a CS that can supply Nightblood with a lot of Investiture can wield it for a time (as we see Vasher do) it's still incredibly dangerous given the exponentially increasing drain. A Shade is not only so weakly manifested in the Physical Realm that they probably couldn't even lift Nightblood but since they don't have any other means of supplying Investiture other than what's keeping them 'alive' the result of one of them trying to touch Nighblood would be one sword nomming one soul, game over man, game over.

I think it's not so much the "Oh no he'll drain me empty of Investiture if I draw it and I'll go poof" fear, as his realizing this is one of the few things in the Cosmere that could destroy him (where he is not even afraid of Jasnah's Shardblade) just by him being near it ("he would stay far, far away... in a different room entirely" is well beyond simply "he would not attempt to draw Nightblood").

I think this goes back to the other discussion of "Is Hoid a good person?", where there is a quote where Hoid himself declines to consider himself a truly "good person".

So picture what Nightblood does to people who have doubts about their own goodness if he's just unclasped a little and in the proximate area. That's what Hoid is afraid of, maybe?

Edited by robardin
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10 minutes ago, robardin said:

Technically this is what Nightblood would do even to a living person, too: draining their "spark of life" after all other sources of Investiture are drained.

Sure but that was not the question.

11 minutes ago, robardin said:

So far we've only seen highly Invested people draw Nightblood - either Vasher with over 100 Breaths in him, or Szeth holding Stormlight with infused spheres at the ready for more... I would think any normal human who drew Nightblood would quickly get "eaten".

It might be a bit faster since a CR depends so much on their investiture.

12 minutes ago, robardin said:

A simple Cognitive Shadow in the CR, as he was in Secret History, or as one that's found a foothold in the Physical realm (as he would be as "The Sovereign" that we've not seen on-screen yet but for a short POV coppermind memory in Era 2)?

Well he seems to be fullborn now which means he could feed it for much longer...  Yay...?

13 minutes ago, robardin said:

Physical Kelsier who is still a Mistborn and can burn metals again should be able to safely wield Nightblood, assuming he had enough metal on hand... Right?

For a while depending on if he had the wherewithal to burn them.  However Nightblood increases his demand for investiture the longer he is drawn.

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40 minutes ago, Retrac said:

So what would happen if a cognitive shadow, like a shade or Kelsier etc, were to hold Nightblood?

Philosophers will debate whether they moved on into the Beyond or got destroyed entirely

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22 minutes ago, Karger said:

Well he seems to be fullborn now which means he could feed it for much longer...  Yay...?

For a while depending on if he had the wherewithal to burn them.  However Nightblood increases his demand for investiture the longer he is drawn.

On a related note was thinking about this the other day: what's the most useless Twinborn compounder? A gold/gold Twinborn like Miles Hundredlives was obviously very powerful, despite A-gold being generally despised as pointless on Scadrial, because of what burning a feruchemical goldmind gave him free Investiture for. But what if you were instead double aluminum? You're an Allomantic gnat, but hey, with your Feruchemical ability you can burn your aluminumminds to nigh-infinitely Compound for... Identity! Woo-...hoo?

But at least you'd be able to wield Nightblood longer than most people! So long as you had enough aluminum, anyway. (Which unfortunately, even in Era 2, is even more expensive than gold.)

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17 minutes ago, robardin said:

You're an Allomantic gnat, but hey, with your Feruchemical ability you can burn your aluminumminds to nigh-infinitely Compound for... Identity! Woo-...hoo?

That would make you largely immune to things like soothing.  Cosmere wide implication that combo is actually really powerful.  I think electrum is way worse in some ways but the one that takes the cake for me is Cadmium .  You can compound as much breath as you want which is usefess and it makes it even harder to waste time as you burn.  Fun.

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2 minutes ago, Karger said:

That would make you largely immune to things like soothing.  Cosmere wide implication that combo is actually really powerful.  I think electrum is way worse in some ways but the one that takes the cake for me is Cadmium .  You can compound as much breath as you want which is usefess and it makes it even harder to waste time as you burn.  Fun.

Hey hey, I've said it before and I'll say it again: Allomantic electrum is underrated! One of my preferred non-Compounding Twinborn pairings would be A-electrum with F-zinc!

And Brandon agrees"While the scope of an electrum shadow is very limited, it could be useful in many situations. Like if you were playing tennis, you’d be able to look at your shadow and tell if you managed to hit the ball or not, and adjust accordingly. That would still take a lot of practice to master, but it could be very effective."

That's not quite the same as burning atium, but a skilled Electrum burner could learn to optimize the results of their own actions based on potential outcomes (though not to predict/react to someone else's future actions).

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Ok so what would happen if say Adonalsium (if he wasn't shattered) held Nightblood?

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13 minutes ago, Retrac said:

Ok so what would happen if say Adonalsium (if he wasn't shattered) held Nightblood?

Nothing.  Adonalsium contains all things. 

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Hmm thats somewhat disappointing.

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what about a shard, since nightblood burns investiture infinitely, then couldn't like consume an entire shard?

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1 hour ago, DiePie said:

what about a shard, since nightblood burns investiture infinitely, then couldn't like consume an entire shard?

The Shard? No. The Vessel on the other hand...

Quote

Questioner

If it's possible for Nightblood to actually interact with a Shard, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

A Shard would try to stay very far away from Nightblood. Nightblood could not plausibly destroy an entire Shard but the Vessel could be in danger.

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Just as a note, make sure topics that have reference multiple series always go in Cosmere Discussion.

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In many ways I think Nightblood represents the other half of Endowment than what is typically thought of. The shard Endowment is, I think both taking and giving, not just giving, and as one of Endowment's signature traits is making cognitive shadows - shadows which require the constant influx of Breath, thus removing them from the system - Nightblood is likely to be even more damaging to a cognitive shadow than to someone who isn't. Think of it like heat drying up a puddle. A cognitive shadow is the puddle directly exposed, while a normal person is the puddle shielded by a piece of cloth. Both will disappear, but one will do so more slowly. Cognitive shadows are made of investiture, and contact with Nightblood would be investiture being directly in contact with something that consumes it. Unless their is more to their investiture mass than a normal person has, they probably would be consumed more rapidly, and even if they have a greater investiture mass they probably lose it at a faster rate than a normal human would, even if they would last longer.

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On 3/2/2020 at 11:31 AM, robardin said:

 But what if you were instead double aluminum? You're an Allomantic gnat, but hey, with your Feruchemical ability you can burn your aluminumminds to nigh-infinitely Compound for... Identity! Woo-...hoo?

 

23 hours ago, Karger said:

That would make you largely immune to things like soothing.  Cosmere wide implication that combo is actually really powerful.  I think electrum is way worse in some ways but the one that takes the cake for me is Cadmium .  You can compound as much breath as you want which is usefess and it makes it even harder to waste time as you burn.  Fun.

I would still see that as largely disappointing, twinborns have a one in thirty-two chance of being an aluminum Compounder you might as well be normal it's not very useful on it's own and and certainly useless on Scandrial only.

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29 minutes ago, Booknerd said:

I would still see that as largely disappointing, twinborns have a one in thirty-two chance of being an aluminum Compounder you might as well be normal it's not very useful on it's own and and certainly useless on Scandrial only.

You are immune to depression and emotional allomancy, you can theoretically use other people's metalminds, and worldhopping is going to be a lot of fun(you can run through Threnody!).

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Since storing Identity makes you super-vulnerable to all sorts of things, compounded Identity should make you more resistant and we know it could be useful to heal from various forms of Cognitive damage. Add to that the fact that A-Aluminum is at least theoretically useful on its own as a way of cleansing Investiture from the user and a Twinborn with double aluminum is definitely not the most useless combination. Double duralumin also looks like it would be a potentially useful ability since Connection has some nice implied benefits though we don't know enough of the mechanics to understand the full ramifications yet, though allomantically duralumin is even less useful than aluminum on its own.

My guess for most useless compounded power would be F-Copper as it's one of the only feruchemical traits that doesn't have an obvious benefit if you can compound it (most of them) or an implied benefit via WoB (aluminum) and Brandon has singled it out in comments as a power that doesn't necessarily do much.

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3 hours ago, Booknerd said:

twinborns have a one in thirty-two chance of being an aluminum Compounder

False. 

A Twinborn has a 1/16 chance of having a particular Allomantic metal, and exactly the same chance of having a particular Feruchemical metal. If you wanted a specific one of each power (and not a range, say, for instance, "any temporal allomantic power") the chances would be 1/(16*16) or 1/256 for ANY specified combination, whether double aluminum or A-iron and F-copper.

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21 hours ago, John203 said:

False. 

A Twinborn has a 1/16 chance of having a particular Allomantic metal, and exactly the same chance of having a particular Feruchemical metal. If you wanted a specific one of each power (and not a range, say, for instance, "any temporal allomantic power") the chances would be 1/(16*16) or 1/256 for ANY specified combination, whether double aluminum or A-iron and F-copper.

I sit corrected

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