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Irishlawyer

Spikes & Lifeless

Question

So a Hemalurgic Spike can be used to 'steal' or alter the bond between a 'dead' Shardblade and an individual.  Could a Hemalurgic Spike be used to alter the Commands of a Lifeless, if the proper metals & points were used?

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Lifeless can be spiked

Quote

Wyrmhero (paraphrased)

Can you could Hemalurgically spike a dead thing, similar to how Breath goes into dead things? Could you spike a Lifeless?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes, if there was enough of the soul left for the spike to take.

London signing (Aug. 4, 2014)

However they don't have much investiture to take(one breath for the standard ones) so that is going to be hard.

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Breath isn't something that hemalurgy can steal, meaning it also shouldn't be possible to alter. Also, the degree of alteration you're thinking of is way higher than what hemalurgy normally does, since it's not just stealing something but trying to alter it in ways that involve the principle of Intent. If you're thinking of ways that you could alter Commands, Forgery is a much more likely avenue since it's actually intended for just this sort of thing. Brandon has said that you could try and alter Nightblood's Command with Forgery (with caveats) so you could probably use it on a Lifeless too and likely easier since they're considerably less Invested. You would of course need to know enough of that Lifeless' history to make a stamp and know enough Awakening to change the Command to something that would actually work. How much interference there would be from the Lifeless themselves we don't know, as Brandon has said that they're more aware than people realize which means you'd probably get a stamp that only works for a limited time just like an Essence Mark that only lasts a day at best.

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Quote

Breath isn't something that hemalurgy can steal, meaning it also shouldn't be possible to alter.

That's a fair point, I just figured a Command would become part of a Lifeless' Spirit Web, possibly as part of their Identity.  'Would Commands be part of a Lifeless' Spirit Web?' Is probably a better question, because if it is, then it may open up the possibility of mucking about with Hemalurgic spikes.  Or are Commands just inherently Breath/Investiture overlaid on top of the Lifeless?  Do they not show up in the Spirit Web at all?

 

As an aside, from what you posted, along with 

Quote

Djarskublar

I'd like confirmation/denial of a theory of mine. Is the reason people can recall breaths from objects but not Lifeless or sentient awakened objects because they no longer have the same Identity as the awakener?

Brandon Sanderson

You are on the right track.

It seems as though Lifeless somewhat retain their original Identity (I'm probably treading ground others have covered on these forums here).  

 

(Also sorry for posting the full quotes, I can't post links yet.)

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Posted (edited)

3 hours ago, Irishlawyer said:

Or are Commands just inherently Breath/Investiture overlaid on top of the Lifeless?  Do they not show up in the Spirit Web at all?

Breath is almost entirely in the Physical Realm.

Hemalurgy is mostly/entirely Spiritual Realm stuff

I bet Commands are mostly cognitive

3 hours ago, Irishlawyer said:

It seems as though Lifeless somewhat retain their original Identity (I'm probably treading ground others have covered on these forums here).  

I imagine it'll be a mix of the original being's Identity and then it'll be shaped by the Breath which will probably be gaining a little sentience of it's own

Edited by Eternal Khol
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Hi, since my idea is along the same lines I will post it here.

Would it be possible to hemalurge the Intelligence and memories out of someone with a copper spike, then awaken that person as a lifeless and then give that lifeless the spike with their own mind and memories?

Would they still be under your control if it worked?

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3 hours ago, PewterAGoldF said:

Would they still be under your control if it worked?

I think that, specifically the memories, would replace the intent of the breaths

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4 hours ago, Lucky MOPper said:

I think that, specifically the memories, would replace the intent of the breaths

that's what i was thinking, but maybe not. the breath might replace the memories bestowed from the spike.

breath is almost entirely in the Physical Realm and Hemalurgy is almost entirely Spirtual. so maybe when you give them the spike, it WOULD grant their memories back, but then the Breath might do something akin to Vasher's Memory erase technique 

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So if the memories override the breath control it would be like a poor mans Returned, and if it were the Breath overrides the memories it would basically be useless.

No chance of a lifeless you control that also has the knowlege of their past life and can answer questions about it and perform intelligent tasks they could do while alive?

 

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