Ixthos

Scenes we are waiting for

100 posts in this topic

A lot of these will the Stormlight related, because I'm currently re-reading. Also, I'm assuming this is a spoileriffic discussion but just in case:

  • Spoiler

     

    • More for how it's handled than because I want to see it, but Moash redemption. I don't especially want or not want it to happen, but I do want it to be realistic and hold him accountable. I'm sick of the idea that fiction in general has that a traumatic past justifies causing other people trauma.
    • The rest of the Oaths for the Knights Radiant (particularly Windrunners and Bondsmiths).
    • Finding out exactly why the Shattering took place.
    • What happened to Vivenna/Vasher/Nightblood, and what Vasher's Divine Breath ends up being used for.
    • Mistborn coming back.
    • Lighteyes generally ditching the discriminatory viewpoints they have. This next comment isn't meant to open a can of worms, but Shallan is really annoying me this readthrough and it's partially because she seems like she buys into the righteousness of the lighteyes/darkeyes power dynamic way more than I would like. Even Adolin is coming out with the 'some people were meant to rule' crap.

     

     

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11 hours ago, Nameless said:

Kaladin had a spren to help him.

But all of the pivotal decisions leading up to the 3rd ideal were made without Syl. Those were made using his conscience, something Moash does have.

11 hours ago, Nameless said:

Again, without Syl to guide him and the pain brought on by losing his bond, a visual representation that what he was doing was wrong, Kaladin would not have made the right choice. He would have been able to ignore the part of himself that knew it was wrong long enough to kill Elhokar.

I disagree. 

11 hours ago, Nameless said:

You cannot hold Moash to the same standard as Kaladin.

Why? They're have similair backgrounds, lives, careers, recent experiences, etc.

11 hours ago, Nameless said:

Adolin killed Sadeas, and not many people hate him for that.

Sadeas was actively threatening Adolin's family and still very much a threat. Elothkar was desperately trying to protect his child on a battlefield. 

11 hours ago, Nameless said:

The only difference between the two killings (from Moash's perspective) would be that Adolin was a high enough rank to avoid punishment for it. 

Technically true, but Moash is wrong.

11 hours ago, Nameless said:

When does Moash allow Odium to take his pain? All he does is kill Elhokar, and afterwards he feels numb. He never tells Odium that he can take his pain.

It doesn't happen on screen but between Dalinar's and Amaram's experiences it's a very safe assumption that it happened. 

@Eugenides AMEN!

In conclusion, storm Moash. 

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41 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Sadeas was actively threatening Adolin's family and still very much a threat. Elothkar was desperately trying to protect his child on a battlefield.

Personally Jezrein was a worse killing as Elhokar was still a combatant.

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11 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But all of the pivotal decisions leading up to the 3rd ideal were made without Syl. Those were made using his conscience, something Moash does have.

And if he had never bonded Syl? The reason that Kaladin couldn't deny that what he was doing was wrong was that Syl had died.

11 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Why? They're have similair backgrounds, lives, careers, recent experiences, etc.

Kaladin is a Knight Radiant, and has the advice of Syl to help him. Kaladin hated Amaram, but others acknowledged that what Amaram did to him was wrong and took steps to punish him. Nobody showed any signs of punishing Elhokar for anything that he had done, even Kaladin.

11 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Sadeas was actively threatening Adolin's family and still very much a threat. Elothkar was desperately trying to protect his child on a battlefield. 

Elhokar was a shardbearer who was about to turn into a nigh-immortal Radiant and slaughter all of the parshmen.

11 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Technically true, but Moash is wrong.

Yes. killing Elhokar was wrong, I'm not in the #Moashdidnothingwrong camp. I do see Moash as a very redeemable person, and he is definitely not a cold-blooded murdering psychopath intent on genocide.

11 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

It doesn't happen on screen but between Dalinar's and Amaram's experiences it's a very safe assumption that it happened. 

I don't think so. Considering that he didn't know what had happened until a Fused told him, it doesn't seem likely that it was a conscious decision, I find it more likely that either his giving in to emotion and killing Elhokar connected him to Odium, or that it was just simple shock.

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The Herald that surely has been under our noses the whole time.

Kaladin vs. Moash

Spoiler for Mistborn Era 2 and Secret History:

Spoiler

KELSIER BACK

Hoid viewpoints larger then the SA epilogues.

 

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12 minutes ago, Nameless said:

And if he had never bonded Syl? The reason that Kaladin couldn't deny that what he was doing was wrong was that Syl had died.

But Syl bonded him because he was a good person to begin with. 

13 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Kaladin hated Amaram, but others acknowledged that what Amaram did to him was wrong and took steps to punish him. Nobody showed any signs of punishing Elhokar for anything that he had done, even Kaladin.

Amaram is actively evil, Elothkar is negligent idiot. Not quite the same.

15 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Elhokar was a shardbearer who was about to turn into a nigh-immortal Radiant and slaughter all of the parshmen.

If Moash had killed him to protect the oarsmen you'd have a point, but he didn't.

16 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Considering that he didn't know what had happened until a Fused told him

I don't remember this scene, quote?

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2 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But Syl bonded him because he was a good person to begin with. 

Syl bonded him because of his desire to protect people.Without Syl Kaladin would never have mustered the strength to help the bridgemen.

4 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Amaram is actively evil, Elothkar is negligent idiot. Not quite the same.

Moash doesn't know that. Being around Elhokar has shown him that he is a weak king who doesn't care about his subjects, only about looking good. Exactly the kind of person who would kill some darkeyes for his buddy.

5 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

If Moash had killed him to protect the oarsmen you'd have a point, but he didn't.

Okay, but Adolin killed Sadeas because he got a bunch of his men killed, why does Moash killing Elhokar because he killed his parents label him as a heartless murderer?

6 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I don't remember this scene, quote?

 

Quote

"I have no passion. Just numbness." "You have given him your pain. He will return it, human, when you need it."

 

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4 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Okay, but Adolin killed Sadeas because he got a bunch of his men killed, why does Moash killing Elhokar because he killed his parents label him as a heartless murderer?

And Jezrien? explain that.

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1 minute ago, Frustration said:

And Jezrien? explain that.

He was numbed and under extreme emotional distress.  besides that, his murder of Jezrien is pretty much indefensible. I'm not trying to say that Moash is a saint, but he doesn't deserve to be hated on and seen as an irredeemable villain worse than Amaram or Sadeas.

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22 minutes ago, Nameless said:

He was numbed and under extreme emotional distress.  besides that, his murder of Jezrien is pretty much indefensible. I'm not trying to say that Moash is a saint, but he doesn't deserve to be hated on and seen as an irredeemable villain worse than Amaram or Sadeas.

I'll agree that he is overhated

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5 hours ago, Nameless said:

Without Syl Kaladin would never have mustered the strength to help the bridgemen.

Sure, but I don't see how that matters when talking about him saving Elothkar 

5 hours ago, Nameless said:

Moash doesn't know that. Being around Elhokar has shown him that he is a weak king who doesn't care about his subjects, only about looking good. Exactly the kind of person who would kill some darkeyes for his buddy.

But Moash does know he just sucks at his job. He works with him! Elothkar demonstrates himself a whiny brat but not a cruel person. 

Again the difference with Adolin is the future threat that Sadeas was. 

 

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4 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But Moash does know he just sucks at his job. He works with him! Elothkar demonstrates himself a whiny brat but not a cruel person. 

Moash sees that Elhokar is being influenced heavily by Dalinar, and that he is petty enough to order Kaladin executed.

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3 hours ago, Nameless said:

Moash sees that Elhokar is being influenced heavily by Dalinar, and that he is petty enough to order Kaladin executed.

Petty does not equal evil 

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12 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Petty does not equal evil 

If Elhokar is petty enough to order the man who saved the life of a highprince, and has just risked his life to save a highprince's son, then he could be petty enough to kill Moash's parents as a favor to a friend.

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Posted (edited)

On 5/23/2020 at 7:04 PM, Nameless said:

If Elhokar is petty enough to order the man who saved the life of a highprince, and has just risked his life to save a highprince's son, then he could be petty enough to kill Moash's parents as a favor to a friend.

Him ordering Kaladin's execution was a brash decision that he nearly immediately regretted.

I feel the need to take a moment and say yes, Elothkar is a monumentally horrible king worthy of the title "the 11th fool."

Yes, Moash has some good traits. In a literal philosophical sense no one is irredeemable, but in storytelling Moash got right next to the line when he attacked Kaladin in WoR, jumped over it when he killed Elothkar, and flipped off everyone still trying to help him when he killed Jezrian.

Edit: in hindsight "literal philosophical sense" is a bit of a oxymoron.

Edited by Elsecaller_17.5
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7 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

 "the 11th fuel."

I can't tell if that is intentional or not.

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The 11th Fool, a reference to the ten fools of vorin symbolism.

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18 minutes ago, John203 said:

The 11th Fool, a reference to the ten fools of vorin symbolism.

I meant the spelling, I couldn't tell if it was spelled wrong on purpose.

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8 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

@Frustration it was not, did you spot a pun I didn't?

Well if your foolish you might spell things wrong, so I thought it might have been an additional attack on his intellect. It's a stretch which is why you didn't see it and I had to wonder.

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Posted (edited)

On 5/24/2020 at 11:10 AM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Him ordering Kaladin's execution was a brash decision that he nearly immediately regretted.

 

He didn't actually regret it immediately. It took him several days to cool off, with Dalinar around to keep him from executing Kaladin.

Edited by Nameless
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Some scenes that I would like to see:

- I'd love to see Gaotona (from Emperor's Soul) bonding a spren. I think he'd be an Edgedancer.

- I want to see the origin and history of the Dysian Aimians. Practically anything about Aimia would be great, actually.

- I want to see Jasnah talking to Khriss. I love Jasnah, but I want to see how she'd feel when she's not the most Cosmere-aware person in the room. 

- Nohadon, Shai, and Hoid discussing philosophy. The three of them seem to have really interesting viewpoints on the way the world works, and I'd love to see more.

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The first time a spaceship from another planet lands on a new planet (new to them anyways). We've had what feels like a ton of world hoppers going through the cognitive realm and we've even had a mass planet hop, but people arriving through space in the physical realm feels different  

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On 5/27/2020 at 10:47 AM, Rushu42 said:

Nohadon, Shai, and Hoid discussing philosophy. The three of them seem to have really interesting viewpoints on the way the world works, and I'd love to see more.

That be fun, but since B9handan and Shai live in different eras (I think) and Shai hates Hoid with a passion I wouldn't hold your breath.

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4 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

That be fun, but since B9handan and Shai live in different eras (I think) and Shai hates Hoid with a passion I wouldn't hold your breath.

Oh, of course it can't actually happen. Gaotona bonding a spren is equally preposterous. But as a hypothetical, it would be interesting.

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