The thrill and Alethi society

[Ascended]

Has the thrill permeated Alethi society so much that that is the reason behind their competitive nature in all things?

[+Invocation]

In a way, yes. But it's kind of a chicken-and-egg thing due to Thrill's nature. Did they attract the Thrill because they were competitive, or did the Thrill show up to make them competitive?

[Karger]

There also may be a slight evolutionary component as the ones who felt the thrill more were more able to survive in combat making each successive generation more susceptible to the thrill on average. 

[Quantus]

I dont think so.  Alethkar is grew out of Alethela, the Silver kingdom that predated Utitiru and all that, and at the time of the Visions it was considered to be dedicated to the arts of war so that no other kingdom had to do so, it was viewed as their duty to protect all the other nations. People went to Alethela if they could fight or wanted to be trained.  It was also the hereditary home of the Radiants, even though they (after debate) founded their headquarters in Urithiru.  I doubt that an UnMade would have been able to lodge itself that much into the heart of the Radiants (of that era) without them noticing, but I could certainly see that sort of cultural concentration of Warriors evolving naturally into the War-focused Althekar of the modern era.  The Thrill would certainly thrive there, and be more difficult to notice than say bureaucratic Azir, but i suspect that happened post-Recreance.  

[Karger]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

but I could certainly see that sort of cultural concentration of Warriors evolving naturally into the War-focused Althekar of the modern era

A concentration of professional soldiers who prize discipline and honor would likely be quite hard to turn into the modern Alethi without the thrill.  I actually suspect Odium's low level interference in trying to break them down. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Karger

[Elsecaller_17.5]

Quote

Blightsong

Was Sadeas ever affected directly by Odium or an Unmade, not counting the Thrill?

Brandon Sanderson

NOT counting the Thrill, ok uhhhhm. There are affects of other unmade around, and Odium's effect - direct effect? I'm going to say, no, maybe some indirect effects.

Blightsong

What about Roshone?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhhhm, no. The Thrill is the main thing that is getting the Alethi so, I mean, there are others around, but it's not as obvious with that as with other things.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

 

[Quantus]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

A concentration of professional soldiers who prize discipline and honor would likely be quite hard to turn into the modern Alethi without the thrill.  I actually suspect Odium's low level interference in trying to break them down. 

I would normally agree, but for the vision of the shard field immediately after the Recreance.  They went pretty quick to murderous scrambling for Power. 

For that matter, the same could have been said for the Radiants themselves, but something happened to shatter their image of Honor, and that could have easily darkened the whole thing without an UnMade's personal involvement.  They were dedicated to Honor, but from a certain perspective Honor betrayed and abandoned them. 

I suppose my point is that they were a founded as a dedicated War culture long before the UnMade could have had a significant impact on their culture as a whole, so the roots of their current competitive nature would have already been there (they were basically harvested and concentrated from across all of Roshar during the Radiant era).  Past that there have been lots of significant cultural shifts that almost certainly had an impact on the development in all kinds of ways.  The Recreance itself, and the following scramble for Shards as a military power.  The Sunmaker being the one to finally stand up to the Hierocracy would both take and then promote a certain competitive drive.  The Thrill certainly and inevitably is a major factor in what they became, especially given how many of their recent leaders were literally addicted to it.  But it's also still spoken of only in whispers among the military.  And it's influence is still a localized thing, so it would ahve had to be following the battles rather thna affecting the whole nation's population.  

TL;DR:  It's certainly a factor, but I dont think it's influence is broad enough to credit for the national culture as a whole.  

 

 

 

Side Question:  are there any theories about similar Influences of an UnMade having a long-lasting effect on a Nation?  If the Heart of the Revel had stuck around Alethkar long enough it would have probably sunk in into the sort of overly decadent society that I generally associate with the Fall of Rome, for example.  Moelach was around enough to spawn the Death Rattle legends (whispered among healers similar to the Thrill among soldiers) but I cant think of a nation whose culture would have been shaped by it (City of Shadows maybe?).

[Karger]

26 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I would normally agree, but for the vision of the shard field immediately after the Recreance.  They went pretty quick to murderous scrambling for Power. 

Those were not Alethi.  Also real world experiments demonstrate that almost any group of humans will act the same way.

28 minutes ago, Quantus said:

For that matter, the same could have been said for the Radiants themselves

They thought they were saving the world.

30 minutes ago, Quantus said:

If the Heart of the Revel had stuck around Alethkar long enough it would have probably sunk in into the sort of overly decadent society that I generally associate with the Fall of Rome, for example

Jah Keved is actually know for this kind of behavior.

31 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Moelach was around enough to spawn the Death Rattle legends (whispered among healers similar to the Thrill among soldiers) but I cant think of a nation whose culture would have been shaped by it (City of Shadows maybe?).

Maybe.  We know something is going on there.

[Quantus]

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

Those were not Alethi.  Also real world experiments demonstrate that almost any group of humans will act the same way.

They were soldiers during the late era Desolations, thus they were from and/or trained in Alethela.  They were then Deployed all over Roshar.  

18 minutes ago, Karger said:

They thought they were saving the world.

Not sure I see the relevance of that.  For the most part the Alethi always Thought they were fighting for the right reasons, that didnt give them any particular capability to resist the Thrill.  

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, Quantus said:

They were soldiers during the late era Desolations, thus they were from and/or trained in Alethela.  They were then Deployed all over Roshar.  

That was actually post desolation and those were the dregs left behind.  I would say that the odds of them being Alethi were much lower.

17 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Not sure I see the relevance of that.  For the most part the Alethi always Thought they were fighting for the right reasons, that didnt give them any particular capability to resist the Thrill.  

The Radiants had reasons for breaking their bonds that do not seem unmade derived.  This is a separate issue.

[Quantus]

27 minutes ago, Karger said:

That was actually post desolation and those were the dregs left behind.  I would say that the odds of them being Alethi were much lower.

The Radiant era then, whatever you want to call it.  It was still the Radiant Organization in charge of the global coordination and structure, and there's nothing to indicate that they abandoned the pre-existing national organizations (right up to the point

27 minutes ago, Karger said:

The Radiants had reasons for breaking their bonds that do not seem unmade derived.  This is a separate issue.

You're point (if Im not mistaken) was that the Alethela people would be so devoted to Discipline and Honor that they would have some sort of resistance/immunity to the Thrill.  Im saying that "better" people of that era did worse things, and that your premise doesnt hold water. The Road to Hell is Paved With Good Intentions, and all that. 

[Pathfinder]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

I would normally agree, but for the vision of the shard field immediately after the Recreance.  They went pretty quick to murderous scrambling for Power. 

For that matter, the same could have been said for the Radiants themselves, but something happened to shatter their image of Honor, and that could have easily darkened the whole thing without an UnMade's personal involvement.  They were dedicated to Honor, but from a certain perspective Honor betrayed and abandoned them. 

I suppose my point is that they were a founded as a dedicated War culture long before the UnMade could have had a significant impact on their culture as a whole, so the roots of their current competitive nature would have already been there (they were basically harvested and concentrated from across all of Roshar during the Radiant era).  Past that there have been lots of significant cultural shifts that almost certainly had an impact on the development in all kinds of ways.  The Recreance itself, and the following scramble for Shards as a military power.  The Sunmaker being the one to finally stand up to the Hierocracy would both take and then promote a certain competitive drive.  The Thrill certainly and inevitably is a major factor in what they became, especially given how many of their recent leaders were literally addicted to it.  But it's also still spoken of only in whispers among the military.  And it's influence is still a localized thing, so it would ahve had to be following the battles rather thna affecting the whole nation's population.  

TL;DR:  It's certainly a factor, but I dont think it's influence is broad enough to credit for the national culture as a whole.  

 

 

 

Side Question:  are there any theories about similar Influences of an UnMade having a long-lasting effect on a Nation?  If the Heart of the Revel had stuck around Alethkar long enough it would have probably sunk in into the sort of overly decadent society that I generally associate with the Fall of Rome, for example.  Moelach was around enough to spawn the Death Rattle legends (whispered among healers similar to the Thrill among soldiers) but I cant think of a nation whose culture would have been shaped by it (City of Shadows maybe?).

So I agree Alethela was originally organized for war, in so far as they practiced it so others could have peace, but the outlook very much changed after the Radiants. Those who fought were meant to serve those who did not. Much like the Shin believe. Fighting was seen as a last resort, and a horrible undertaking, that needed guidance in order to get through it without being destroyed. Conversely the Alethkar we know of extols combat. Those that fight are seen as the highest calling and are to rule. That is quite different than how it was presented by the Radiant in Dalinar's vision. That difference could be attributed to the Thrill. We do know it has been hanging out in Alethkar for so long, that it was considered normal and accepted to go into a battle rage. The purpose is causing increased emotion to open them up to investiture. We see instances of this across multiple novels and on other planets. This allowed the Odiuous spren to possess Sadeas's men. 

[Karger]

40 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im saying that "better" people of that era did worse things, and that your premise doesnt hold water. The Road to Hell is Paved With Good Intentions, and all that. 

You are confusing moral strength with susceptibility to what is essentially an addiction.

[Quantus]

40 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I agree Alethela was originally organized for war, in so far as they practiced it so others could have peace, but the outlook very much changed after the Radiants. Those who fought were meant to serve those who did not. Much like the Shin believe. Fighting was seen as a last resort, and a horrible undertaking, that needed guidance in order to get through it without being destroyed. Conversely the Alethkar we know of extols combat. Those that fight are seen as the highest calling and are to rule. That is quite different than how it was presented by the Radiant in Dalinar's vision. That difference could be attributed to the Thrill. We do know it has been hanging out in Alethkar for so long, that it was considered normal and accepted to go into a battle rage. The purpose is causing increased emotion to open them up to investiture. We see instances of this across multiple novels and on other planets. This allowed the Odiuous spren to possess Sadeas's men. 

Oh, I definitely agree that the Thrill's influence is a perfectly valid reason for the modern Alethi Culture to be "Competitive", and that at least in recent generations where we know the Thrill was present, it was a factor.  I just think they had all the ingredients for that evolution long before the Thrill was likely a factor, and that Nergaoul's limited range of effect makes it far less likely to have actually "permeated Alethi society so much that that is the reason behind their competitive nature in all things".  A factor sure, particularly among the militaristic leadership in recent times, but not the root of it throughout the culture. 

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

You are confusing moral strength with susceptibility to what is essentially an addiction.

I definitely must have misunderstood your point then, because that's precisely the mistake I thought you making. :-p  

[Karger]

5 hours ago, Quantus said:

I definitely must have misunderstood your point then, because that's precisely the mistake I thought you making. :-p  

The Alethi of old were trained to fight "without it destroying them."  This seems to imply that their armies went through training that made them resistant to the thrill's effects and they likely had customs and social institutions designed to reinforce that training.  After the fall of the radiants those institutions would have eroded.  The thrill could only effectively gain a place in Alethi society after they were broken down enough to become ineffective.  Remnants may have remained but by the time it started working I doubt they were worth much.

[Gilphon]

I mean, my basically understanding of this situation is that they were always very militaristic, which attracted Nergaoul, and then that made them from 'militaristic' to 'locked in an eternal civil war' and gave them the focus on competitiveness. 

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I mean, my basically understanding of this situation is that they were always very militaristic, which attracted Nergaoul, and then that made them from 'militaristic' to 'locked in an eternal civil war' and gave them the focus on competitiveness. 

I think it is the difference between militaristic and barbarism.  I professional soldier for example may train for war but idealy he should abhor it understanding the consequences and dangers.  A barbarian(like most of the lighteyes) also trains for war but revels or enjoys it. 

[Quantus]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

The Alethi of old were trained to fight "without it destroying them."  This seems to imply that their armies went through training that made them resistant to the thrill's effects and they likely had customs and social institutions designed to reinforce that training.  After the fall of the radiants those institutions would have eroded.  The thrill could only effectively gain a place in Alethi society after they were broken down enough to become ineffective.  Remnants may have remained but by the time it started working I doubt they were worth much.

Do we have any direct evidence of this? That's a pretty specific Limitation of his power that I dont recall seeing. 

13 hours ago, Karger said:

I think it is the difference between militaristic and barbarism.  I professional soldier for example may train for war but idealy he should abhor it understanding the consequences and dangers.  A barbarian(like most of the lighteyes) also trains for war but revels or enjoys it. 

But that's more along the lines of actual Bloodthirst, not just Competitiveness. 

[Karger]

13 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Do we have any direct evidence of this? That's a pretty specific Limitation of his power that I dont recall seeing. 

The thrill can be resisted.  Dalinar manages it in WoKs he shoves it down in an attempt at decency kind of like going cold turkey.  I imagine with training average soldiers could do the same thing and were trained to do so (per that quote about fighting without it destroying you).  These traditions of avoiding the thrill might actually still be around in some elements of Alethi society at the lower levels.  Remember Kaladin's conversation with his old sarge in OB flashback?  His advice about caring about your friends during battle and fighting for them while avoiding people who think that war is some kind of game might actually be reminiscent of those old traditions. 

[Quantus]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

The thrill can be resisted.  Dalinar manages it in WoKs he shoves it down in an attempt at decency kind of like going cold turkey.  I imagine with training average soldiers could do the same thing and were trained to do so (per that quote about fighting without it destroying you).  These traditions of avoiding the thrill might actually still be around in some elements of Alethi society at the lower levels.  Remember Kaladin's conversation with his old sarge in OB flashback?  His advice about caring about your friends during battle and fighting for them while avoiding people who think that war is some kind of game might actually be reminiscent of those old traditions. 

Have we seen anyone that wasnt in the process of Bonding a spren and becoming Radiant show that resistance, maybe Adolin?  The Bond was what I always attributed Dalinar's more recent resistance as well as Kaladin's (Since Syl mentions that she'd already had a connection to him even back in Amaram's army), but that is just my own observation/explanation.  

[+Q10fanatic]

Overwhelming bloodlust is also generally a net negative for fighting forces. At the extreme end, we see what happens in Veden (?) where all of the kingdom's military might wipes itself out to no purpose, allowing Mr. T to come in. That's a clear example. But we can see that example and also apply that at a lower level of conflict. You can't have one of your flanks get overwhelmed by the Thrill and charge unexpectedly, you lose almost all of your tactical advantage in battle.

The Alethi say that the Thrill is the reason they win, the reason that they tend to win their battles. I actually think that their training is sufficient to protect them in the heat of battle and they are able to overwhelm their foes with the combination of superior training, superior gear/shards, and the overwhelming battlelust. If they only had the Thrill, they'd lose more often than not to the more disciplined foe. This is basically what happened at Thaylen Fields.

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Have we seen anyone that wasnt in the process of Bonding a spren and becoming Radiant show that resistance, maybe Adolin?  The Bond was what I always attributed Dalinar's more recent resistance as well as Kaladin's (Since Syl mentions that she'd already had a connection to him even back in Amaram's army), but that is just my own observation/explanation.  

We only have so many examples of none radiants fighting.

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

We only have so many examples of none radiants fighting.

Well, for Science then I think we need to wait until we have a proper control example before we assume that the Thrill Resistance can be learned by the Un-Invested.  As you said, it's essentially a supernatural addiction. 

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Well, for Science then I think we need to wait until we have a proper control example before we assume that the Thrill Resistance can be learned by the Un-Invested.  As you said, it's essentially a supernatural addiction. 

Well that is looking like it will never happen.  However addiction can be treated or avoided.

[Gilphon]

I mean, we see Dalinar resisting the Thrill in his flashbacks, well before the Stormfather would've started to bond him. Like when he gets that sudden urge to murder Gavilar and fights it back, or when he decides to spare Tanalan Jr. 

Personally, I've never really assumed that the Thrill is supposed to be undeniable in any way. Like Alethi armies don't regularly eat themselves whenever the battle ends; it seems like in most cases people can say 'ok, the battle's over, time to put the berserker rage away'. Which doesn't strike me as a concept Nergaoul would have an easy time understanding. The Veden Civil war, where they did just keep fighting after the enemy was gone and didn't seem to be able to stop, is noted as an extreme case, and not how Nergaoul normally operates. (In my mind, the closer you are to Nergaoul's physical location, the harder it is to resist the Thrill.)

But all said that- I think Karger is giving the Alethela codes a bit too much credit. I agree that the idea behind the codes was probably to help their soldiers resist the Thrill, but I doubt that they were ever incredibly effective. They're always gonna be some people who choose to join the military because they want to fight things, or because they want to prove how strong they are. You're never gonna be able stop Nergaoul from getting a foothold in there somewhere.