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At which point becomes mass awareness of and mass access to the Cognitive Realm inevitable?


Oltux72

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2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But they can afford them, and they do use them. Chouta is soulcast food prepared with spices sold as a street food. Latrines and trash are for waste removal with soulcasters. Yes the quote below refers to a palace, but Shallan herself says it is becoming increasingly common. 

Only in the armies and it does not have to be soulcast.  That food has just become common in the warcamps due to the incredible number of soulcasters and gemstones there. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Kharbranth's palace offered far more luxury. The stone pool in the ground resembled a small personal lake, luxuriously warmed by clever fabrials that produced heat. Shallan didn't know much about fabrials yet, though part of her was very intrigued. This type was becoming increasingly common. Just the other day, the Conclave staff had sent Jasnah one to heat her chambers.  

Shallan is a member of the upper crust.  Yes she is not super important but she causally spends money in larger denominations then can be changed by a foodcart without even thinking about it.  What she thinks of as common is not representative. 

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I think this is another point of disconnect between us. What I envision is not overnight. But I also do not think it will take 100s of years. I do not think that is unreasonable. 

Maybe not hundreds but a good generation or two seems pretty much a minimum.

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Considering two of the means to access the cognitive realm involve radiant orders that do not choose based on economic status, I do not think that would be as great a barrier as you posit. But to each their own. 

Radiants have limited time.  They are either going to have to charge for their services making them only available to the upper crust or give it based on some kind of merit system.  Pretty much all merit systems will favor the wealthy as they have the time, resources, and education to lobby more effectively and make their cases more convincingly.  Also the average person has no real need to go to the CR and won't have enough money to do so anyway(capital to cover the opportunity costs of leaving their job for a few weeks).

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

As per the Shallan quote above, and the drawings the Navani is working on (including the wrist watch) I believe is indicative of a growing focus on fabrials. 

Those watches require a specialist or group of specialists to work on and are not available or usable for more ordinary people due to costs.  As such they will likely not kick off an major immediate change in lifestyle for most people.  This was true in our world as well.

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Portable timepieces were made possible by the invention of the mainspring in the early 15th century. Nuremberg clockmaker Peter Henlein (or Henle or Hele) (1485-1542) is often credited as the inventor of the watch.[5][6] He was one of the first German craftsmen who made "clock-watches", ornamental timepieces worn as pendants, which were the first timepieces to be worn on the body His fame is based on a passage by Johann Cochläus in 1511,[7][8]

I will give you my recipe for a society that is prime for a full on revolution if it helps you understand. 

1. You need a really good way of producing food cheaply for everyone that involves minimal manpower.  Soulcasting does not fit this description.  It requires gemstones and not enough people can do it to.  Per this WoB

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ebilutionist

How would food production be like without soulcasters? Has Alethkar, for example, grown far beyond what it could (population-wise) without them?

Brandon Sanderson

The food question is a great one. As far as the Alethi go, it's more a matter of concentration than raw food production. Shipping is SLOW in Alethkar. It's long, which makes getting between north and south difficult, and the rivers aren't as useful as they are on (say) Earth.

The warcamps, for example, would starve themselves out short order without soulcasters. Supply lines are just not an Alethi strength. Kholinar, while not as big as Scadrian population centers, is also large enough that it depends on soulcasters for some of its food. It could survive without them, though, with northern Alethi food production.

Really, warfare is where they've learned to extend themselves, and depend on the soulcasters. Remember, gemstones in them DO break, so you do still need a ready supply of emeralds. The larger, the better.

Soulcasting is not even how they sustain their largest urban centers.  Maybe Radiants will start to make a dent in this but I still think Roshar really needs some kind of seed press and harvesting machine.   If they are anything like pre industrial europe on Roshar 80% of the workforce in all nations will be farming.  For various reasons it is probably less on Roshar(they don't have to worry about irrigation for example and they have been breeding crops for longer then we have) but they still need to start mechanizing their agriculture.

2. They need better transportation.  Food production increases won't mean much without a good way to increase food shipping.  Oathgates will help with this some by preventing localized famines from effecting the largest cities but once farms start getting more efficient urban centers not near oathgates are going to need food and they are going to always need more of it right now.  I do not think that fabrails can fix this.  Navani's floating ships are going to be very useful for an army but I have a pretty high inclination that they are two expensive to ship grain around.  I have a theory that stonewad tunnels will be a big thing in the future but they will take a long long time to make.

3. Power available for ordinary manufacturing.  Eventually the correct fabrails yes but this needs to be understood well by many people and then they have to understand how to use that power to carry out tasks effectively.  This is the difference between a model T and the first automobiles.  One is understood and can be used by anyone while the other are only available for rich people(and were often unsafe).

4. You need a larger educated workforce.  Azir might have this but nowhere else seems to.  Without an administrative group capable of creating contracts, doing accounting, and assessing risks you are not getting anywhere.

5. People need legal protections for their work and they have to apply to all workers.  Innovation does not happen easily when anyone can take your idea without compensation.

6. Wars need to be limited in scope.  If you look at where wars happened in Europe you will find that the nations that were invaded less tended to enjoy greater economic prosperity.  Wars kill the workforce and make your intellectuals think of battle strategies and army administration as opposed to inventing the vacuum cleaner.  As long as they are in a wartime economy Roshar is not getting anywhere in terms of industry.

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40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Only in the armies and it does not have to be soulcast.  That food has just become common in the warcamps due to the incredible number of soulcasters and gemstones there. 

The alethi warcamp and cities became synonomous. It is the new capital of the Alethi. The fact that soulcast grain is used for chouta which is a street food purchasable by darkeyes to me speaks for itself. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Shallan is a member of the upper crust.  Yes she is not super important but she causally spends money in larger denominations then can be changed by a foodcart without even thinking about it.  What she thinks of as common is not representative. 

Except we see heating fabrials mentioned in 4 to 5 other locations in the books. I said this before, and I will say it one more time (not being confrontational, just I see no point in repeating it further), but the wealthy do fuel industry in this manner. I still do not see why the poor have to afford fabrials for them to be used to advance the industry. The fabrials would increase production which would make common goods cheaper and more available. That is what the assembly line caused with cars. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Maybe not hundreds but a good generation or two seems pretty much a minimum.

And personally I disagree. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Radiants have limited time.  They are either going to have to charge for their services making them only available to the upper crust or give it based on some kind of merit system.  Pretty much all merit systems will favor the wealthy as they have the time, resources, and education to lobby more effectively and make their cases more convincingly.  Also the average person has no real need to go to the CR and won't have enough money to do so anyway(capital to cover the opportunity costs of leaving their job for a few weeks).

If the slave darkeyes bonds an elsecaller spren, how is the upper crust going to control or limit him or her from soulcasting food when a highstorm passes? If the serving girl bonds an edgedancer spren, how is the upper crust going to control or limit her from using regrowth to increase the food yield when a highstorm passes?

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Those watches require a specialist or group of specialists to work on and are not available or usable for more ordinary people due to costs.  As such they will likely not kick off an major immediate change in lifestyle for most people.  This was true in our world as well.

They have had fabrial clocks for awhile. The wrist watch was an advancement in miniaturization. Dalinar has realized the value of keeping time. As this can allow the coordination of attacks, those watches will become more important, and production will ramp up. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

I will give you my recipe for a society that is prime for a full on revolution if it helps you understand. 

1. You need a really good way of producing food cheaply for everyone that involves minimal manpower.  Soulcasting does not fit this description.  It requires gemstones and not enough people can do it to.  Per this WoB

They are producing food and resources cheaper as per Sebarial. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

Soulcasting is not even how they sustain their largest urban centers.  Maybe Radiants will start to make a dent in this but I still think Roshar really needs some kind of seed press and harvesting machine.   If they are anything like pre industrial europe on Roshar 80% of the workforce in all nations will be farming.  For various reasons it is probably less on Roshar(they don't have to worry about irrigation for example and they have been breeding crops for longer then we have) but they still need to start mechanizing their agriculture.

Again, I feel it is faulty to use real world analogues, when pre-industrial europe didn't have a renewable energy source in stormlight. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

2. They need better transportation.  Food production increases won't mean much without a good way to increase food shipping.  Oathgates will help with this some by preventing localized famines from effecting the largest cities but once farms start getting more efficient urban centers not near oathgates are going to need food and they are going to always need more of it right now.  I do not think that fabrails can fix this.  Navani's floating ships are going to be very useful for an army but I have a pretty high inclination that they are two expensive to ship grain around.  I have a theory that stonewad tunnels will be a big thing in the future but they will take a long long time to make.

Radiant soulcasters to produce food in the short term, and radiant regrowth to accelerate food production and get it ramped up. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

3. Power available for ordinary manufacturing.  Eventually the correct fabrails yes but this needs to be understood well by many people and then they have to understand how to use that power to carry out tasks effectively.  This is the difference between a model T and the first automobiles.  One is understood and can be used by anyone while the other are only available for rich people(and were often unsafe).

Again this is where I get confused. They already have ordinary manufacturing. Navani was musing to herself regarding ways to further production with fabrials. The ideas are there, and now with access to radiants as well as Urithiru, the heralds, and spren from the cognitive side, I really do not see why such mechanization would be so far fetched. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

4. You need a larger educated workforce.  Azir might have this but nowhere else seems to.  Without an administrative group capable of creating contracts, doing accounting, and assessing risks you are not getting anywhere.

Things like the printing press and the assembly line worked so well because you could teach a worker one skill, one action, and have them do that one skill, one action well. Instead of having to teach the entire process. It made the work force interchangeable and replaceable. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

5. People need legal protections for their work and they have to apply to all workers.  Innovation does not happen easily when anyone can take your idea without compensation.

That occurs during an industrial revolution. How many people died from over worked hours? How many people died from unsanitary conditions? How many people died in factories without proper safety precautions when fires broke out, or lost limbs? That hardly prevented the industrial revolution from occurring. The legislation came to pass as result of it. 

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

6. Wars need to be limited in scope.  If you look at where wars happened in Europe you will find that the nations that were invaded less tended to enjoy greater economic prosperity.  Wars kill the workforce and make your intellectuals think of battle strategies and army administration as opposed to inventing the vacuum cleaner.  As long as they are in a wartime economy Roshar is not getting anywhere in terms of industry.

England during world war two was regularly bombed by Germany yet came up with numerous technological innovations, of which some were crucial in winning the war. 

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21 hours ago, Karger said:

Old forms of manufacturing like glassblowing have existed for thousands of years. 

Karger, it seems that much of the confusion in this discussion comes from you mixing up 2 related, but not interchangeable concepts - namely manufacturing, which is often used as a synonym for "producing" and "making" and manufactory. Manufactories were basically factories  in that every worker only performed a few specialized steps in the production process. As such, they were much more efficient  than individual artisans and were  precursors for factories. Also, the workers could be quickly and easily trained.  And it is true that manufactories existed during the peak of the Roman Empire, for example, but never made the jump towards mechanization at that time, as they did during the early modern times, both because slaves were cheap and because other technologies needed for machines to function, like metallurgy, just weren't where they needed to be. However, fabrial science on Roshar is going to fill most of the the technological advance requirements needed for mechanization.

 

21 hours ago, Karger said:

  Is that industrialization if they are doing the same things tech wise they would be doing in a village like Kaladin's? 

 

They are not doing it in the same way. The only thing that they are probably lacking are powered machines. Fabrial science is poised to create those, if they don't already exist. Among other things, heat fabrials could be also used to power a steam engine, for instance.

I also don't understand your repeated insistence that lower classes must have ownership of machines for it to truly count as an Industrial Revolution, because it wasn't at all the case iRL. Also, literacy was not nearly as ubiquitious as you seem to think - plenty of British soldiers during the WWI were still illiterate, for instance.

 

Anyway, it would be logical for people to become aware of the possibility of cosmere travel during the later SA, but it would be like the idea of travel along the Silk Road was for the Renaissance Europeans, IMHO. I.e. something that the educated knew about, but only a very few ever attempted. Rosharans are in some ways severely disadvantaged where cosmere travel is concerned - they are used to higher-oxygen, lower gravity world (70% of Earth normal, IIRC), where stormlight suppresses most infectious diseases. The Radiants could deal with it, if they figure out how to transport stormlight (infused gems in air-tight aluminium containers, IMHO) or how to substitute other investiture, but it would be hard for normal Rosharans to survive. Though not impossible, if Mraize is any guide.

Cosmere travel _should_ be well-known on the era 3 Scadrial, but I have a feeling that Sanderson is going to treat it "Men in Black"-style, because he wants to keep the series mutually independent for as long as possible. It would be somewhat contrived, IMHO, particularly since I feel that it would be logical for the Iriali to migrate there between the 2 SA sub-series, and also because you'd think that an intrepid Scadrian world-hopping explorer would want to put their story in print.

They seem to be keeping the knowledge secret on Nalthis as well, despite having customs at the perpendicularity. Maybe there is some exclusive trading guild that is jealously guarding it's monopoly?

I'd dearly love to read a Sanderson story about somebody first discovering  the world-hopping for themselves...    

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On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

The alethi warcamp and cities became synonomous. It is the new capital of the Alethi. The fact that soulcast grain is used for chouta which is a street food purchasable by darkeyes to me speaks for itself. 

It is not the largest population center nor is it a normal place.  It would likely not exist and it probably can't sustain itself without government support.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

Except we see heating fabrials mentioned in 4 to 5 other locations in the books. I said this before, and I will say it one more time (not being confrontational, just I see no point in repeating it further), but the wealthy do fuel industry in this manner

They do but that is assuming that trickle down economics are what you are using to fuel this new kind of economic growth.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

The fabrials would increase production which would make common goods cheaper and more available. That is what the assembly line caused with cars. 

With the exception of soulcasters which are not used by most people in most places we have no fabrails that are used by normal people for work.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

If the slave darkeyes bonds an elsecaller spren, how is the upper crust going to control or limit him or her from soulcasting food when a highstorm passes? If the serving girl bonds an edgedancer spren, how is the upper crust going to control or limit her from using regrowth to increase the food yield when a highstorm passes?

As soon as this happens they are going to move to Urithiru for education and training.  They are going to learn skills useful for fighting diplomacy and so on.  Also do some basic math.  Their will not be more then a few thousand radiants assuming all of the spren bond.  We don't know the exact numbers but we estimate hundreds of millions of Rosharans.  This means that each person who devotes themselves to food production(assuring it is everyone) will have to feed at least 50,000 people.  For reference the shattered plain collectively number only a few hundred thousand and they have dozens soulcasters working around the clock.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

They have had fabrial clocks for awhile. The wrist watch was an advancement in miniaturization. Dalinar has realized the value of keeping time. As this can allow the coordination of attacks, those watches will become more important, and production will ramp up. 

No they won't.  They have spanreads for coordination which make watches useless in warefare.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

They are producing food and resources cheaper as per Sebarial. 

Cheaper then can be shipped to the middle of nowhere.  Farmers still work by hand per Kal's flashback.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

Radiant soulcasters to produce food in the short term, and radiant regrowth to accelerate food production and get it ramped up. 

But it won't move food to more remote locations.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

Again this is where I get confused. They already have ordinary manufacturing. Navani was musing to herself regarding ways to further production with fabrials. The ideas are there, and now with access to radiants as well as Urithiru, the heralds, and spren from the cognitive side, I really do not see why such mechanization would be so far fetched. 

When does she say this?

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

Things like the printing press and the assembly line worked so well because you could teach a worker one skill, one action, and have them do that one skill, one action well. Instead of having to teach the entire process. It made the work force interchangeable and replaceable. 

And required a larger administrative task force that does not yet exist.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

That occurs during an industrial revolution. How many people died from over worked hours? How many people died from unsanitary conditions? How many people died in factories without proper safety precautions when fires broke out, or lost limbs? That hardly prevented the industrial revolution from occurring. The legislation came to pass as result of it. 

Not for workers but for innovators.  Britain was ground zero for the industrial revolution in part because it had good legal protections for patents.

On 2/28/2020 at 6:00 PM, Pathfinder said:

England during world war two was regularly bombed by Germany yet came up with numerous technological innovations, of which some were crucial in winning the war. 

They applied existing tech and most of the things you are thinking of came from the US(like radar, the nordan bomb sight, or the jet engine) which was far from the enemy.

On 2/29/2020 at 10:32 AM, Isilel said:

However, fabrial science on Roshar is going to fill most of the the technological advance requirements needed for mechanization.

Is it?  If slaves are more efficient why not just use them?  POWs and refugees are going to wash across the face of Roshar in the next few years.  It is not like we have a labor shortage.

On 2/29/2020 at 10:32 AM, Isilel said:

I also don't understand your repeated insistence that lower classes must have ownership of machines for it to truly count as an Industrial Revolution, because it wasn't at all the case iRL. Also, literacy was not nearly as ubiquitious as you seem to think - plenty of British soldiers during the WWI were still illiterate, for instance.

  Yeah but think about how few Rosharans(particularly Alethi for example) are literate.  At the beginning of the nineteenth century, education for the working classes was available on a haphazard basis in England and Wales

On 2/29/2020 at 10:32 AM, Isilel said:

2 SA sub-series, and also because you'd think that an intrepid Scadrian world-hopping explorer would want to put their story in print.

I think the governments are going to crach down on CR knowlege on Scadrail and who knows what Radiants are going to let anyone know.  Letting people go to Braize sounds silly.

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On 29/02/2020 at 0:00 AM, Pathfinder said:

The alethi warcamp and cities became synonomous. It is the new capital of the Alethi. The fact that soulcast grain is used for chouta which is a street food purchasable by darkeyes to me speaks for itself.

Well, actually it speaks for government subsidies. The High Princs have to feed the camps. Not much choice there.

On 29/02/2020 at 0:00 AM, Pathfinder said:

Except we see heating fabrials mentioned in 4 to 5 other locations in the books.

Yes, but not in production. The advanced fabrials we have seen were luxury goods or used in warfare or espionage. Can we agree that it is clear that Fabrials have the potential to support a magoindustrial revolution? We are discussing economics, history and development, not technology.

On 29/02/2020 at 0:00 AM, Pathfinder said:

I said this before, and I will say it one more time (not being confrontational, just I see no point in repeating it further), but the wealthy do fuel industry in this manner.

They fuel production, not industry. The distinction is important.

On 29/02/2020 at 0:00 AM, Pathfinder said:

I still do not see why the poor have to afford fabrials for them to be used to advance the industry. The fabrials would increase production which would make common goods cheaper and more available. That is what the assembly line caused with cars.

Probably a result of the original question asking about the masses being educated.

On 29/02/2020 at 0:00 AM, Pathfinder said:

Again this is where I get confused. They already have ordinary manufacturing. Navani was musing to herself regarding ways to further production with fabrials. The ideas are there, and now with access to radiants as well as Urithiru, the heralds, and spren from the cognitive side, I really do not see why such mechanization would be so far fetched. 

Because they are fighting for their lives now. Hence resources will be redirected to the production of armaments. War is great for technology, not so much for basic research.

On 29/02/2020 at 4:32 PM, Isilel said:

Cosmere travel _should_ be well-known on the era 3 Scadrial, but I have a feeling that Sanderson is going to treat it "Men in Black"-style, because he wants to keep the series mutually independent for as long as possible. It would be somewhat contrived, IMHO, particularly since I feel that it would be logical for the Iriali to migrate there between the 2 SA sub-series, and also because you'd think that an intrepid Scadrian world-hopping explorer would want to put their story in print.

Right. I fail to see how this is possible without an extreme political change in Scadrial. Where would they have learned about censorship for example?

On 29/02/2020 at 4:32 PM, Isilel said:

They seem to be keeping the knowledge secret on Nalthis as well, despite having customs at the perpendicularity. Maybe there is some exclusive trading guild that is jealously guarding it's monopoly? 

Nalthis, respectively Hallandren, with a strong theocratic government and a tradition of military state secrets can do that. But Scadrial?

On 01/03/2020 at 3:02 AM, Karger said:

With the exception of soulcasters which are not used by most people in most places we have no fabrails that are used by normal people for work.

Well, technically Fabrials are used in ships.But that is very much an exception. Instead they are used to heat noble ladies' bath water.

On 01/03/2020 at 3:02 AM, Karger said:

This means that each person who devotes themselves to food production(assuring it is everyone) will have to feed at least 50,000 people.  For reference the shattered plain collectively number only a few hundred thousand and they have dozens soulcasters working around the clock.

Right. The potential is in Fabrials, not Surgebinders.

 

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On 2/29/2020 at 9:02 PM, Karger said:

It is not the largest population center nor is it a normal place.  It would likely not exist and it probably can't sustain itself without government support.

It is said multiple times in the books that the Shattered Plains has become the new capital of Alethkar. Sebarial realizing this before anyone else, has set up "shop". It is also mentioned multiple times in the books about how the Alethi presence in the shattered plains is becomes a permanent fixture and that is the place where the real movers and shakers have set up shop. 

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They do but that is assuming that trickle down economics are what you are using to fuel this new kind of economic growth.

I am confused, I am not speaking of trickle down economics at all. I am speaking of the industrial revolution. Innovations like the printing press, the steam engine, and the assembly line all stream lined production and increased it massively. Instead of needing a fully trained work force from beginning to end, you could teach someone off the street to put a gear in a housing, and then pass it along. Then if that person lost a finger, complained about their rights, or the insanely long hours, you could kick them out on the street and grab someone else and do the exact same thing. There were rampant abuses but it did not change that those in power could produce more, via cheaper labor, and making greater profits by cutting their sale prices eliminating the competition. The wealthy have all the reasons in the world to push for such innovations. 

 

Here is how it went down on our planet with cars (highlighting portions I feel are especially pertinent):

 

Large-scale, production-line manufacturing of affordable cars was started by Ransom Olds in 1901 at his Oldsmobile factory in Lansing, Michigan and based upon stationary assembly line techniques pioneered by Marc Isambard Brunel at the Portsmouth Block Mills, England, in 1802. The assembly line style of mass production and interchangeable parts had been pioneered in the U.S. by Thomas Blanchard in 1821, at the Springfield Armory in Springfield, Massachusetts.[34] This concept was greatly expanded by Henry Ford, beginning in 1913 with the world's first moving assembly line for cars at the Highland Park Ford Plant.

As a result, Ford's cars came off the line in fifteen-minute intervals, much faster than previous methods, increasing productivity eightfold, while using less manpower (from 12.5-man-hours to 1 hour 33 minutes).[35] It was so successful, paint became a bottleneck. Only Japan black would dry fast enough, forcing the company to drop the variety of colors available before 1913, until fast-drying Duco lacquer was developed in 1926. This is the source of Ford's apocryphal remark, "any color as long as it's black".[35] In 1914, an assembly line worker could buy a Model T with four months' pay.[35]

Ford's complex safety procedures—especially assigning each worker to a specific location instead of allowing them to roam about—dramatically reduced the rate of injury.[citation needed] The combination of high wages and high efficiency is called "Fordism," and was copied by most major industries. The efficiency gains from the assembly line also coincided with the economic rise of the United States. The assembly line forced workers to work at a certain pace with very repetitive motions which led to more output per worker while other countries were using less productive methods.

In the automotive industry, its success was dominating, and quickly spread worldwide seeing the founding of Ford France and Ford Britain in 1911, Ford Denmark 1923, Ford Germany 1925; in 1921, Citroen was the first native European manufacturer to adopt the production method. Soon, companies had to have assembly lines, or risk going broke; by 1930, 250 companies which did not, had disappeared.[35]

Development of automotive technology was rapid, due in part to the hundreds of small manufacturers competing to gain the world's attention. Key developments included electric ignition and the electric self-starter (both by Charles Kettering, for the Cadillac Motor Company in 1910–1911), independent suspension, and four-wheel brakes.

Since the 1920s, nearly all cars have been mass-produced to meet market needs, so marketing plans often have heavily influenced car design. It was Alfred P. Sloan who established the idea of different makes of cars produced by one company, called the General Motors Companion Make Program, so that buyers could "move up" as their fortunes improved.

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With the exception of soulcasters which are not used by most people in most places we have no fabrails that are used by normal people for work.

I still don't see why poor people are using these types of fabrials in their homes. The way the industrial revolution worked was it allowed for greater production of goods at cheaper prices. This drove industry forward. Then when laws were enacted protecting the workers, and unions, the workers got an increase in wages. Then with the standardization of modern conveniences and the burgeoning middle class, resulted in the average man having access to technology and conveniences they never would have had before. The car is a prime example of this. Originally only the rich got to have it, and they would do little races in park areas. But with the introduction of the assembly line, cars became affordable to more people. The utility cars afforded became realized and more and more roads were paved, till it has become one of the most prevalent inventions on the planet. The cell phone is another example. It used to be only fancy big business men could have the giant cell phone. Now there are plans where you practically "rent" one and almost everyone has a smart phone. A smart phone. Practically a hand held computer. These are just examples of how an innovation can lead to standardization. 

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As soon as this happens they are going to move to Urithiru for education and training.  They are going to learn skills useful for fighting diplomacy and so on.  Also do some basic math.  Their will not be more then a few thousand radiants assuming all of the spren bond.  We don't know the exact numbers but we estimate hundreds of millions of Rosharans.  This means that each person who devotes themselves to food production(assuring it is everyone) will have to feed at least 50,000 people.  For reference the shattered plain collectively number only a few hundred thousand and they have dozens soulcasters working around the clock.

Really? Every single person will respond exactly the same to receiving these kinds of powers? They will disregard their familial relations, spousal relations, children and friends to fall in line? Every single one? There would never be a person that decided they wanted to bring alms to the poor, and would soulcast for the people in their neighborhood? Or an edgendancer remembering the forgotten by creating a commune garden that they infuse with regrowth to speed along production? (not intending to be snarky, I just really do not see how every single radiant will immediately fall in line, abandon his or her family and friends to support a system that would drive down their family further. Not saying that is the system that would exist, but that seems to be the system you are positing)

Also consider take like lets say 5 seeds. Plant them. Use regrowth to accelerate growth that they all mature and produce. Now you have 5 plants heavily laden with seeds. Take those seeds, plant them, and use regrowth to accelerate their growth. Now you have an exponential growth of seeds that you can now have your farmers plant and grow the old fashioned way. 

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No they won't.  They have spanreads for coordination which make watches useless in warefare.

Spanreeds require they remain still to communicate. We have radio communication on earth, and soldiers still use watches to coordinate attacks. Team A and B will reach their points at such and such time. They have this much time to set up. At this time, all forces attack. It is a very real fact that happens in our own world, and Dalinar comments on it repeatedly in the books. 

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Cheaper then can be shipped to the middle of nowhere.  Farmers still work by hand per Kal's flashback.

I quoted the book already. Sebarial said manufactories producing goods faster than anyone else. 

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But it won't move food to more remote locations.

Why would they necessarily have to move food there? Take a windrunner/skybreaker or elsecaller/lightweaver, with an edgedancer or truthwatcher. Fly or teleport (via windrunner, skybreaker, elsecaller or willshaper) to the remote location with a packet of seeds and stormlight. Elsecaller/lightweaver soulcasts food for the short term to assist the farmers so they can focus on farming for production over immediate food. Plant the seeds, and use regrowth to bring them to full maturity in seconds heavy with seeds. Do this once or twice till you have enough seeds to plant multiple fields. Then leave. The farmers there plant and care for the seeds, using the soulcast food to maintain till the plants have reached maturity. Then they have a surplus of food for themselves. Seeds to plant subsequent yields, and a large supply to send back to Urithiru or wherever. 

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When does she say this?

I already mentioned that multiple times. I say this not to be snarky nor disrespectful, but I am sorry but please go back to my prior posts. She speaks of possible innovations. 

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And required a larger administrative task force that does not yet exist.

Really? You have one factory foreman. This was all across the industrial revolution on earth. It was taking untrained people off the street, and plugging them into a seat where they could do the same thing over and over again. 

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Not for workers but for innovators.  Britain was ground zero for the industrial revolution in part because it had good legal protections for patents.

Lighteyes and the ardentia are the main researchers and innovators. How are they going to have trouble with patents? 

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They applied existing tech and most of the things you are thinking of came from the US(like radar, the nordan bomb sight, or the jet engine) which was far from the enemy.

That is incorrect. Radar existed, but was no where near what it was till World War 2. It was used covertly so as to not give away the advantage. That meant allowing large swatches of Britain to be bombed by Germany so that Germany would not realize England knew when they were coming and where they would hit. A scientist walking past a portion of the radar machine, noticed what the radiation did to some food he was holding. That ultimately lead to the microwave. Two things utterly unrelated, led to innovations. 

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Is it?  If slaves are more efficient why not just use them?  POWs and refugees are going to wash across the face of Roshar in the next few years.  It is not like we have a labor shortage.

Then the industrial revolution would not have happened on earth. It is cheaper to pay someone next to nothing, and train them to operate one thing, rather than teach them the whole process. In fact Roshar is already knowledgeable of this because of what they do with the parsh. The parsh can do simple tasks once taught and will repeat the tasks till told to stop. A frequent thing owners do, is teach the parsh to weave baskets for instance so even between jobs, they are accomplishing and producing. One parsh does it up to a certain point. Then passes it to the next, who does it to a certain point, and so on till the basket is done. Simple tasks that when combined produce a finished product far cheaper and efficient than otherwise. 

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  Yeah but think about how few Rosharans(particularly Alethi for example) are literate.  At the beginning of the nineteenth century, education for the working classes was available on a haphazard basis in England and Wales

But you don't need education to work an assembly line. That is what made it so appealing. 

3 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Well, actually it speaks for government subsidies. The High Princs have to feed the camps. Not much choice there.

And in my response to Karger, I explained how that could be handled. 

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Yes, but not in production. The advanced fabrials we have seen were luxury goods or used in warfare or espionage. Can we agree that it is clear that Fabrials have the potential to support a magoindustrial revolution? We are discussing economics, history and development, not technology.

Ok this is confusing to me. Can you elaborate on what you are saying?

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They fuel production, not industry. The distinction is important.

Not in what I am saying. The increase of production via cheaper workers, and greater yield would lead to cheaper prices to cut out the competition (which is exactly what Sebarial is doing). 

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Probably a result of the original question asking about the masses being educated.

But the masses do not need to be educated to put a gear in a car. They just need to be taught to do one thing, and do that one thing well. And if anything happens to that person, because the task is simple, they are easily replaced. 

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Because they are fighting for their lives now. Hence resources will be redirected to the production of armaments. War is great for technology, not so much for basic research.

I whole heartily disagree. There are countless innovations that changed people's day to day lives that were sourced from war. 

 

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3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It is said multiple times in the books that the Shattered Plains has become the new capital of Alethkar. Sebarial realizing this before anyone else, has set up "shop". It is also mentioned multiple times in the books about how the Alethi presence in the shattered plains is becomes a permanent fixture and that is the place where the real movers and shakers have set up shop. 

That does not disprove my point.  Washington DC was also initially such a place and it would also not have been built or sustained without government support.  The fact that businesses are now setting up shop there does not change the fact that it would not exist without the Alethi war effort and if the king was to pack up and go home the settlement would collapse to a much smaller size.

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Innovations like the printing press, the steam engine, and the assembly line all stream lined production

All depended on creating markets for their goods.  The first industrially made product was textiles.  Everyone wore clothing.  As such making a lot of it cheaply was profitable.  However making a large number of something that only the wealthy can afford is not an industrial revolution.

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The way the industrial revolution worked was it allowed for greater production of goods at cheaper prices

With the exception of soulcasters none of the fabrails we have seen produce goods.  Navani is not even working on any that do.

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Really? Every single person will respond exactly the same to receiving these kinds of powers?

On average I am guessing the vast majority will. 

11 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Now you have an exponential growth of seeds that you can now have your farmers plant and grow the old fashioned way. 

How much stormlight do you think middle of nowhere edgedancer has access to?  I don't think you can grow a plant in a highstorm even with regrowth.  It would probably blow away(as would the edgedancer).  Also look at my math.  You don't have enough edgedancers in the first place.

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

We have radio communication on earth, and soldiers still use watches to coordinate attacks

Largely for security reasons that don't exist with spanreads.

17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I quoted the book already. Sebarial said manufactories producing goods faster than anyone else. 

Goods not food.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Elsecaller/lightweaver soulcasts food for the short term to assist the farmers so they can focus on farming for production over immediate food. Plant the seeds, and use regrowth to bring them to full maturity in seconds heavy with seeds

That helps with famines but it does not increase overall production.  Also check my numbers you don't have enough radiants for everyone.

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I already mentioned that multiple times. I say this not to be snarky nor disrespectful, but I am sorry but please go back to my prior posts. She speaks of possible innovations. 

I just checked.  You have a bunch of quotes where you say something like "Navani is thinking" but no actually in book quotes.  I checked all three pages by her name.

23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Really? You have one factory foreman. This was all across the industrial revolution on earth. It was taking untrained people off the street, and plugging them into a seat where they could do the same thing over and over again. 

You also need accountants, actuaries, insurance agents, mechanics, administrators, and business people.  You can't pull those off the street.

25 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Lighteyes and the ardentia are the main researchers and innovators. How are they going to have trouble with patents? 

Because you are artificially restricting who can get a patent innovation is going to happen slower it is that simple.  What if for example someone like Lirin cooperates on painkiller fabrails.  He has no financial reason to because the patent system will likely not include him and even if it does it may be biased against him.

27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

That is incorrect. Radar existed, but was no where near what it was till World War 2. It was used covertly so as to not give away the advantage

Radar was invented in the 1930s at MIT.  It was far from a covert military project.

29 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Two things utterly unrelated, led to innovations. 

Interesting you should bring that up.  The man involved was self taught far from the front lines of the conflict and interestingly.  Raytheon filed a United States patent application for Spencer's microwave cooking process, and an oven that heated food using microwave energy from a magnetron was soon placed in a Boston restaurant for testing   Somthing he would not be able to do as a self taught darkeyes in alethkar.

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

One parsh does it up to a certain point. Then passes it to the next, who does it to a certain point, and so on till the basket is done. Simple tasks that when combined produce a finished product far cheaper and efficient than otherwise. 

That is not industrial.  The Romans did the same thing as has been pointed out and it did not lead to an economic revolution.

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ok this is confusing to me. Can you elaborate on what you are saying?

The problems are not limited by scientific knowhow but by economic, social, and political realities.

33 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Not in what I am saying. The increase of production via cheaper workers, and greater yield would lead to cheaper prices to cut out the competition (which is exactly what Sebarial is doing). 

So you think monopoly is what caused the industrial revolution?

33 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I whole heartily disagree. There are countless innovations that changed people's day to day lives that were sourced from war. 

Name a few.

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39 minutes ago, Karger said:

That does not disprove my point.  Washington DC was also initially such a place and it would also not have been built or sustained without government support.  The fact that businesses are now setting up shop there does not change the fact that it would not exist without the Alethi war effort and if the king was to pack up and go home the settlement would collapse to a much smaller size.

Except Sebarial realized it is a permanent spot, and has set up an entire industry there. 

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All depended on creating markets for their goods.  The first industrially made product was textiles.  Everyone wore clothing.  As such making a lot of it cheaply was profitable.  However making a large number of something that only the wealthy can afford is not an industrial revolution.

Here is the history of the assembly line, taken place even before the industrial revolution, as well as how it affected the industrial revolution.  

 

Before the Industrial Revolution, most manufactured products were made individually by hand. A single craftsman or team of craftsmen would create each part of a product. They would use their skills and tools such as files and knives to create the individual parts. They would then assemble them into the final product, making cut-and-try changes in the parts until they fit and could work together (craft production).

Division of labor was practiced in China where state run monopolies mass-produced metal agricultural implements, china, armor, and weapons centuries before it appeared in Europe on the eve of the Industrial Revolution.[4] Adam Smith discussed the division of labour in the manufacture of pins at length in his book The Wealth of Nations (published in 1776).

The Venetian Arsenal, dating to about 1104, operated similar to a production line. Ships moved down a canal and were fitted by the various shops they passed. At the peak of its efficiency in the early 16th century, the Arsenal employed some 16,000 people who could apparently produce nearly one ship each day, and could fit out, arm, and provision a newly built galley with standardized parts on an assembly-line basis. Although the Arsenal lasted until the early Industrial Revolution, production line methods did not become common even then

 

The Industrial Revolution led to a proliferation of manufacturing and invention. Many industries, notably textiles, firearms, clocks and watches,[6] horse-drawn vehicles, railway locomotives, sewing machines, and bicycles, saw expeditious improvement in materials handling, machining, and assembly during the 19th century, although modern concepts such as industrial engineering and logistics had not yet been named.

The pulley block was the first manufacture to become fully automated at the Portsmouth Block Mills in the early 19th century.

The automatic flour mill built by Oliver Evans in 1785 was called the beginning of modern bulk material handling by Roe (1916). Evans's mill used a leather belt bucket elevator, screw conveyors, canvas belt conveyors, and other mechanical devices to completely automate the process of making flour. The innovation spread to other mills and breweries.[7][8]

Probably the earliest industrial example of a linear and continuous assembly process is the Portsmouth Block Mills, built between 1801 and 1803. Marc Isambard Brunel (father of Isambard Kingdom Brunel), with the help of Henry Maudslay and others, designed 22 types of machine tools to make the parts for the rigging blocks used by the Royal Navy. This factory was so successful that it remained in use until the 1960s, with the workshop still visible at HM Dockyard in Portsmouth, and still containing some of the original machinery.[9]

One of the earliest examples of an almost modern factory layout, designed for easy material handling, was the Bridgewater Foundry. The factory grounds were bordered by the Bridgewater Canal and the Liverpool and Manchester Railway. The buildings were arranged in a line with a railway for carrying the work going through the buildings. Cranes were used for lifting the heavy work, which sometimes weighed in the tens of tons. The work passed sequentially through to erection of framework and final assembly

 

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With the exception of soulcasters none of the fabrails we have seen produce goods.  Navani is not even working on any that do.

We know there are fabrials for all the surges. We know regrowth fabrials have existed. We know Navani is already coming up with ships using gravitation, a surge of a radiant. Regrowth stimulates growth. I mentioned in a prior post how that can be used to produce goods. 

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On average I am guessing the vast majority will. 

Personally I disagree. 

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How much stormlight do you think middle of nowhere edgedancer has access to?  I don't think you can grow a plant in a highstorm even with regrowth.  It would probably blow away(as would the edgedancer).  Also look at my math.  You don't have enough edgedancers in the first place.

Highstorms come weekly  or even more frequently in some circumstances. Arrive with infused gemstones. Get production started. After next highstorm, get production fully going. Leave. And that is not even considering soulcasting a large windbreak to allow for soulcasting and regrowth during a highstorm. 

I disagree with your math, so I have come to different conclusions. 

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Largely for security reasons that don't exist with spanreads.

I disagree. There have been plenty of military operations where they can radio each other, or back to base, but still use time to coordinate. 

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Goods not food.

Um? The quote literally mentions his farmers producing food. 

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That helps with famines but it does not increase overall production.  Also check my numbers you don't have enough radiants for everyone.

Roshar is fecund. All the radiants would be doing in that case is getting the farmers start in mass production. The biggest hurdle with farming when you have good land is getting it up and running. Having the capital and resources to invest while waiting for the yields to provide returns. With what I presented, all of that is jumped short order. You would have massive fields of farm land producing.

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I just checked.  You have a bunch of quotes where you say something like "Navani is thinking" but no actually in book quotes.  I checked all three pages by her name.

I referenced about the plumbing system via pumps. I referenced the airship. I referenced others. All of these things are machines, and innovations using fabrials. All of these things Navani, who is a wealthy supporter of the sciences and engineer in her own right, is thinking about, and pushing her own research time to work on. 

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You also need accountants, actuaries, insurance agents, mechanics, administrators, and business people.  You can't pull those off the street.

Not at the start of the industrial revolution. When it really hits and booms yes. But you are mentioning all this infrastructure that developed along side it, and presenting that it had to precede it. 

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Because you are artificially restricting who can get a patent innovation is going to happen slower it is that simple.  What if for example someone like Lirin cooperates on painkiller fabrails.  He has no financial reason to because the patent system will likely not include him and even if it does it may be biased against him.

But that is not how it works on Roshar. We see it numerous times with Navani. 

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Radar was invented in the 1930s at MIT.  It was far from a covert military project.

Research leading to RDF technology in the United Kingdom was begun by Sir Henry Tizard's Aeronautical Research Committee in early 1935, responding to the urgent need to counter German bomber attacks. Robert A. Watson-Watt at the Radio Research Station, Slough, was asked to investigate a radio-based "death ray". In response, Watson-Watt and his scientific assistant, Arnold F. Wilkins, replied that it might be more practical to use radio to detect and track enemy aircraft. On 26 February 1935, a preliminary test, commonly called the Daventry Experiment, showed that radio signals reflected from an aircraft could be detected. Research funds were quickly allocated, and a development project was started in great secrecy on the Orford Ness Peninsula in Suffolk. E. G. Bowen was responsible for developing the pulsed transmitter. On 17 June 1935, the research apparatus successfully detected an aircraft at a distance of 17 miles. In August, A. P. Rowe, representing the Tizard Committee, suggested the technology be code-named RDF, meaning Range and Direction Finding.

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Interesting you should bring that up.  The man involved was self taught far from the front lines of the conflict and interestingly.  Raytheon filed a United States patent application for Spencer's microwave cooking process, and an oven that heated food using microwave energy from a magnetron was soon placed in a Boston restaurant for testing   Somthing he would not be able to do as a self taught darkeyes in alethkar.

But that's not how things work on Roshar......

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That is not industrial.  The Romans did the same thing as has been pointed out and it did not lead to an economic revolution.

I didn't say it directly would. I said the concepts are there. Couple that with the renewable resource of stormlight, and fabrial tech, and there you go. 

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The problems are not limited by scientific knowhow but by economic, social, and political realities.

The warmachine has a lot more pull in getting things accomplished, which is why there are countless innovations sourced during conflict. 

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So you think monopoly is what caused the industrial revolution?

Maybe you saw my post before you saw my edit which included how things developed with cars and the assembly line, so I will copy paste it here. 

Large-scale, production-line manufacturing of affordable cars was started by Ransom Olds in 1901 at his Oldsmobile factory in Lansing, Michigan and based upon stationary assembly line techniques pioneered by Marc Isambard Brunel at the Portsmouth Block Mills, England, in 1802. The assembly line style of mass production and interchangeable parts had been pioneered in the U.S. by Thomas Blanchard in 1821, at the Springfield Armory in Springfield, Massachusetts.[34] This concept was greatly expanded by Henry Ford, beginning in 1913 with the world's first moving assembly line for cars at the Highland Park Ford Plant.

As a result, Ford's cars came off the line in fifteen-minute intervals, much faster than previous methods, increasing productivity eightfold, while using less manpower (from 12.5-man-hours to 1 hour 33 minutes).[35] It was so successful, paint became a bottleneck. Only Japan black would dry fast enough, forcing the company to drop the variety of colors available before 1913, until fast-drying Duco lacquer was developed in 1926. This is the source of Ford's apocryphal remark, "any color as long as it's black".[35] In 1914, an assembly line worker could buy a Model T with four months' pay.[35]

Ford's complex safety procedures—especially assigning each worker to a specific location instead of allowing them to roam about—dramatically reduced the rate of injury.[citation needed] The combination of high wages and high efficiency is called "Fordism," and was copied by most major industries. The efficiency gains from the assembly line also coincided with the economic rise of the United States. The assembly line forced workers to work at a certain pace with very repetitive motions which led to more output per worker while other countries were using less productive methods.

In the automotive industry, its success was dominating, and quickly spread worldwide seeing the founding of Ford France and Ford Britain in 1911, Ford Denmark 1923, Ford Germany 1925; in 1921, Citroen was the first native European manufacturer to adopt the production method. Soon, companies had to have assembly lines, or risk going broke; by 1930, 250 companies which did not, had disappeared.[35]

Development of automotive technology was rapid, due in part to the hundreds of small manufacturers competing to gain the world's attention. Key developments included electric ignition and the electric self-starter (both by Charles Kettering, for the Cadillac Motor Company in 1910–1911), independent suspension, and four-wheel brakes.

Since the 1920s, nearly all cars have been mass-produced to meet market needs, so marketing plans often have heavily influenced car design. It was Alfred P. Sloan who established the idea of different makes of cars produced by one company, called the General Motors Companion Make Program, so that buyers could "move up" as their fortunes improved.

 

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Name a few.

1. tanks

2. flamethrowers

3. synchronizer

4. air traffic control

5. hydrophones

6. pilotless drones

7. mobile x-ray machines

8. sanitary napkins

9. extensive research on magnetism to protect hulls of ships from mines and detect subs led to detecting ore from the air for mining purposes

10. technique of cathodic protection of ships's hulls against salt water corrosion (still in use today and has saved millions of dollars in ship damage)

11. anti fog windshield fluids. 

12. Artificial fur due to arctic clothing for the military. 

13. Synthetic Rubber

14. a technique for testing and quantifying snow conditions

15. anti roll stabilizer

16. Nuclear energy research leading to the development of the Chalk River atomic energy facilities and eventual development of the CANDU nuclear power generator

17. Nylon for use in parachutes

18. Electro-thermal de-icers for aircraft propellers that is still used to improve safety of air travel today. 

19. Successful processes to manufacture better powdered eggs, powdered milk, and preserved bacon. This led to some of the powdered and condensed foods still in use today for food transportation.

20. development of drugs to help cope with seasickness and motion sickness

21. Important contributions to the development and improvement in production of penicillin. Mass production of the vaccine. 

22. Blood serum, in great demand to help the large number of people injured in the war, was made available as a result of work done by Dr CH Best. 

23. The first decompression chamber

24. The first human centrifuge used by pilots to train for high performance aircraft. 

25. Oxygen masks for aircrew, and research on the effects of fatigue and cold

26. research on night vision led to red lighting

 

I am sure I can pull up more if you give me some time. 

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27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Except Sebarial realized it is a permanent spot, and has set up an entire industry there. 

So?  Some people will probably stay there but it will need to be supported by different means and it will get much smaller for a while.

31 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The Industrial Revolution led to a proliferation of manufacturing and invention. Many industries, notably textiles, firearms, clocks and watches,[6] horse-drawn vehicles, railway locomotives, sewing machines, and bicycles, saw

All things that normal people use.

32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

We know there are fabrials for all the surges. We know regrowth fabrials have existed. We know Navani is already coming up with ships using gravitation, a surge of a radiant. Regrowth stimulates growth. I mentioned in a prior post how that can be used to produce goods. 

We have no evidence that the grav ships will be used by normal people.  Navani's current interest for them is warfare.  It will take time before they are cheep enough to use by normal passengers or for the passengers to afford using them.  Remember it took several decades from Dalinar's memories for the spanreed to go from government use to almost everyone has some.  As to radiant fabrails they seem to be almost as scarce as radiants.  I assume that they were hard to make for some reason or many more would have been made.

46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Roshar is fecund. All the radiants would be doing in that case is getting the farmers start in mass production

By this logic a Darwinian process of natural selection has gone on with only already mass producing fields working these days which would render the radiant work worthless.  The other alternative is that radiants have to keep coming back in which case I don't think you have enough radiants.  This is even more true if you are right and the average radiant sticks around where they were born and does not use their powers to the fullest extent.

49 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I referenced about the plumbing system via pumps. I referenced the airship. I referenced others. All of these things are machines, and innovations using fabrials. All of these things Navani, who is a wealthy supporter of the sciences and engineer in her own right, is thinking about, and pushing her own research time to work on. 

Pluming is nice but neither it nor airships are really articles of production espeshally if all airships are currently working for the military which they will be for the foreseeable future.

43 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Um? The quote literally mentions his farmers producing food. 

He notes making manufactured goods more efficiently then can be shipped.  Kaladin notes that making food here at all is difficult.  Sebarial says he is doing it to supplement soulcasters not because he thinks he can render this place self sufficient.

43 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I didn't say it directly would. I said the concepts are there. Couple that with the renewable resource of stormlight, and fabrial tech, and there you go. 

The first recorded rudimentary steam-powered "engine" was the aeolipile described by Hero of Alexandria, a mathematician and engineer in Roman Egypt in the first century AD.[3]  They had both of those in the Roman empire too.  No industrial revolution happened. 

 

51 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The warmachine has a lot more pull in getting things accomplished, which is why there are countless innovations sourced during conflict. 

After the war we sometimes do get various advancements as in the world wars.  More often we do not as seen in the 30 years war, the 100 years war, or the US revolutionary war. 

56 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

1. tanks

2. flamethrowers

Not used for production.  In fact making them is difficult and expensive which may actually reduce the rate at which other products can be made.

57 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

3. synchronizer

Patented before the war actually.

58 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

4. air traffic control

In 1920, Croydon Airport, London was the first airport in the world to introduce air traffic control.[3] The "aerodrome control tower" was actually a wooden hut 15 ft (4.6 m) high with windows on all four sides. It was commissioned on 25 February 1920 and provided basic traffic, weather and location information to pilots.[4][5]

I could go on but I want to make my point. 

1.  These are all post industrialization products where the methods involved in research and development had standardized methodologies, mass education was pretty normal, and people had enough wealth that starvation was not always an immediate problem.

2.  A lot of this stuff was produced either before or after a war not during.

3. Even more of this stuff does not have civilian applications let alone uses for industry.

4. A lot of this stuff was made in countries not directly involved in the war.

5. This phenomena does not seem to hold true prior to industrialization itself.

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46 minutes ago, Karger said:

So?  Some people will probably stay there but it will need to be supported by different means and it will get much smaller for a while.

In the book stated by Kaladin, as well as Dalinar and others, the Shattered plains is very fertile. Dalinar mentioned in oathbringer about maintaining the shattered plains for that reason

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All things that normal people use.

Ok, I am confused again. You repeatedly in prior posts said people would be unable to afford clocks and watches, mass transportation like trains, and production like sewing machines, but now you are saying they are all normal? I am lost. 

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We have no evidence that the grav ships will be used by normal people.  Navani's current interest for them is warfare.  It will take time before they are cheep enough to use by normal passengers or for the passengers to afford using them.  Remember it took several decades from Dalinar's memories for the spanreed to go from government use to almost everyone has some.  As to radiant fabrails they seem to be almost as scarce as radiants.  I assume that they were hard to make for some reason or many more would have been made.

Sorry you misunderstood. My point is Navani is already thinking of ways to apply the radiant surges to machines. Spanreeds were a few decades, not several (he mentioned an "old war trick" of flipping a span reed on an off since he wouldn't know how to write). Also a few decades is a far cry from the generations you are saying is required. Aimia apparently mass produced soulcasters. A radiant in Dalinar's vision, during an excursion to a border village, of no tactical importance brought a healing fabrial and only used it sparingly due to stormlight. Not because it is rare. A lot of the fabrials were lost, so I do not believe we can judge the number of surge fabrials of the past with the current number in modern day. According to Dalinar's vision there were 100s upon hundreds of shardblades and that was just that one vision. In modern day there is no where near that number. So it is not accurate to measure the current number as the means to determine their potential proliferation. 

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By this logic a Darwinian process of natural selection has gone on with only already mass producing fields working these days which would render the radiant work worthless.  The other alternative is that radiants have to keep coming back in which case I don't think you have enough radiants.  This is even more true if you are right and the average radiant sticks around where they were born and does not use their powers to the fullest extent.

Huh? This really confuses me.

The whole purpose of what I presented was it would allow the farm lands to ramp up production. So it would go from only one field, and having to wait till it yields crops, of which some have to go to feed the family, some have to go towards replanting, and whatever is left can go to the "government", to having massive fields where the first yields can focus on further production and goods to the government, till it is self sustainable. In the example I gave, the production would be self sustainable in under a week, versus months or years normally. 

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Pluming is nice but neither it nor airships are really articles of production espeshally if all airships are currently working for the military which they will be for the foreseeable future.

I am sorry, I believe you missed my point. The theories of plumbing Navani mentioned was regarding the attracting and repelling fabrials (which were used in the battle with the stormform to keep the bows dry). She mused that a combination of such fabrials could be used to draw water and such along pipes. Why is this revolutionary? Because that means irrigation systems to increase food and farming production. That means cooling and heating systems. Have a heating fabrial at one end, while the repelling and attracting fabrials drive the water through the system. Use attracting and repelling fabrials to move gears, or pumps to move machinery. There are so many applications for that pair of fabrials alone. Imagine the rest!

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He notes making manufactured goods more efficiently then can be shipped.  Kaladin notes that making food here at all is difficult.  Sebarial says he is doing it to supplement soulcasters not because he thinks he can render this place self sufficient.

?

Where does Kaladin say making food on the shattered plain is difficult? When he first arrived he commented on how fertile the land is. That a farmer could get lavis polyps the size of water barrels easily. 

Are we reading the same quote I posted? He mentions growing lavis, tallew, as well as hog farms. I'm honestly confused yet again. 

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The first recorded rudimentary steam-powered "engine" was the aeolipile described by Hero of Alexandria, a mathematician and engineer in Roman Egypt in the first century AD.[3]  They had both of those in the Roman empire too.  No industrial revolution happened. 

It is not known whether the aeolipile was put to any practical use in ancient times, and if it was seen as a pragmatic device, a whimsical novelty, an object of reverence, or some other thing. A source described it as a mere curiosity for the ancient Greeks, or a "party trick".[8] Hero's drawing shows a standalone device, and was presumably intended as a "temple wonder", like many of the other devices described in Pneumatica

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After the war we sometimes do get various advancements as in the world wars.  More often we do not as seen in the 30 years war, the 100 years war, or the US revolutionary war. 

I will be happy to pull up innovations from those as well. 

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Not used for production.  In fact making them is difficult and expensive which may actually reduce the rate at which other products can be made.

When did we say it had to be for production? The point is that war leads to innovation that can lead to developments no where near the original intent. Then the desire of the product could lead to innovation in its production (like the car I keep mentioning)

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Patented before the war actually.

Doesn't negate the further research done on it resulting in further developments. 

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In 1920, Croydon Airport, London was the first airport in the world to introduce air traffic control.[3] The "aerodrome control tower" was actually a wooden hut 15 ft (4.6 m) high with windows on all four sides. It was commissioned on 25 February 1920 and provided basic traffic, weather and location information to pilots.[4][5]

War provided innovation in air traffic control, leading to the coordination and full extent we see today. 

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I could go on but I want to make my point. 

I will list even more. None of what you said discounts the developments and growth due to these war time researches. 

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1.  These are all post industrialization products where the methods involved in research and development had standardized methodologies, mass education was pretty normal, and people had enough wealth that starvation was not always an immediate problem.

I whole heartily disagree with this regarding World War 2. 

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2.  A lot of this stuff was produced either before or after a war not during.

Everything I listed was either invented during the war, produced because of research done during the war, or was further innovated on because of the war. 

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3. Even more of this stuff does not have civilian applications let alone uses for industry.

Pilotless drones, oxygen masks for aircrews, mobile x ray machines, ore detecting from the air, salt water corrosion, anti fog windshield fluids, artificial fur for winter clothing, nylon for parachutes, electro thermal de-ciers for aircraft, preserved food, drugs for seasickness and motion sickness, and mass production of penicillin you are saying does not have civilian applications?

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4. A lot of this stuff was made in countries not directly involved in the war.

Some yes, some no. And that does not change the need led to developments that led to innovation. 

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5. This phenomena does not seem to hold true prior to industrialization itself.

I will be happy to bring up innovations due to war in history. 

 

1. horse drawn carriages

2. gunpowder

3. internal combustion

4. barbed wire

5. during the civil war 15,000 miles of telegraph cable was laid purely for military purposes. Mobile telegraph wagons reported and received communications

6. aerial reconnaissance. Balloon Corps established by President Lincoln. The telegraph was also used to coordinate

7. railroads. expanded and crucial in the movement of troops

8. army ambulance corps. The first organized transport of wounded

 

I could go on. But I am hesitant to as i feel you will just disregard what I came up with. So once again I guess agree to disagree? 

 

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3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

It is said multiple times in the books that the Shattered Plains has become the new capital of Alethkar. Sebarial realizing this before anyone else, has set up "shop". It is also mentioned multiple times in the books about how the Alethi presence in the shattered plains is becomes a permanent fixture and that is the place where the real movers and shakers have set up shop.

Yes, but that is logically independent of a start of an industrial revolution. The Alethi are merely expanding.

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I am confused, I am not speaking of trickle down economics at all. I am speaking of the industrial revolution. Innovations like the printing press, the steam engine, and the assembly line all stream lined production and increased it massively. Instead of needing a fully trained work force from beginning to end, you could teach someone off the street to put a gear in a housing, and then pass it along.

I am afraid we are talking past each other. I would say (at the risk of repeating myself) that an industrial revolution will need

  1. some kind of proto-assembly line, to facilitate division of labor within one plant
  2. a source of power
  3. mechanization

Now, you have spoken about the Venetian Arsenal and Sebarial's plants. They show that Roshar has taken the first hurdle. Fabrials arguably would help taking the second hurdle. But there is no indication the third hurdle would be taken.

Venice is the best example that an assembly line itself does not help. Now, the Rosharans likely have the technology, but do they have the incentives?

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I still don't see why poor people are using these types of fabrials in their homes. The way the industrial revolution worked was it allowed for greater production of goods at cheaper prices. This drove industry forward.

Right. Yet that requires

  1. a mass market
  2. mechanization again

 

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Just now, Pathfinder said:

In the book stated by Kaladin, as well as Dalinar and others, the Shattered plains is very fertile. Dalinar mentioned in oathbringer about maintaining the shattered plains for that reason

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“Sebarial has them setting up lavis fields on the southwestern hills,” Wit explained.

“The highstorms out here are too powerful for farming.”

“Tell that to the Natan people. They used to farm this entire area. Requires a strain of plant that doesn’t grow as large as you’re accustomed to.”

“But why?” Kaladin asked. “Why wouldn’t farmers go someplace where it’s easier? Like Alethkar proper.”

 

9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ok, I am confused again. You repeatedly in prior posts said people would be unable to afford clocks and watches, mass transportation like trains, and production like sewing machines, but now you are saying they are all normal? I am lost. 

The ones Navani is currently building are too expensive.  Each one has to be carefully handcrafted by several experts.  She gives one as a gift to a king.  Similarly a new technology like an airship will most likely be too expensive for ordinary people to afford especially considering the fact that way to many people on Roshar can't really afford anything.  No one we know has invented a swearing machine and no one we know has made a sewing machine factory. 

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Spanreeds were a few decades, not several

I meant a good 30 years ish and that is for a pretty simple and obviously useful invention.

Almost no one on Roshar has the money to buy a car even if someone figured out how to make one.  That is why I keep saying this will take at least two generations.  The population needs to build up wealth and know how.  Both hardware and software as some economists all them.

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I will be happy to bring up innovations due to war in history. 

Specifically ones that helped industrialization?

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12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes, but that is logically independent of a start of an industrial revolution. The Alethi are merely expanding.

But the industrial revolution did not start because people sat down and said "hey I came up with this word. The industrial revolution. Lets do that!". Expansion of a new capital, with tools to further that expansion. 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I am afraid we are talking past each other. I would say (at the risk of repeating myself) that an industrial revolution will need

  1. some kind of proto-assembly line, to facilitate division of labor within one plant
  2. a source of power
  3. mechanization

Guess we are talking past each other because

1. Sebarial already has factories. It is a concept already in use

2. stormlight as a source of power is prevalent and renewable.

3. the fabrial revolution that is beginning 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Now, you have spoken about the Venetian Arsenal and Sebarial's plants. They show that Roshar has taken the first hurdle. Fabrials arguably would help taking the second hurdle. But there is no indication the third hurdle would be taken.

Venice is the best example that an assembly line itself does not help. Now, the Rosharans likely have the technology, but do they have the incentives?

Why aren't fabrials considered mechanization? 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Right. Yet that requires

  1. a mass market
  2. mechanization again

During wartime there is most definitely a mass market, and again fabrials for mechanization. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

The ones Navani is currently building are too expensive.  Each one has to be carefully handcrafted by several experts.  She gives one as a gift to a king.  Similarly a new technology like an airship will most likely be too expensive for ordinary people to afford especially considering the fact that way to many people on Roshar can't really afford anything.  No one we know has invented a swearing machine and no one we know has made a sewing machine factory. 

Yet pocket watches are one of the innovations of the Civil War. 

"Until the war, portable timepieces were a luxury item for the ultra-rich. The Waltham Watch company in Massachusetts figured out how to make interchangeable pieces for their pocket watch, which made the watch affordable for the masses, according to Alexis McCrossen, history professor at Southern Methodist University. This manufacturing breakthrough coincided with the start of the war, and soldiers began taking watches into battle. For one, the personalized engravings on the cover reminded the men of loved ones back home and they also allowed to them keep up with the regimented schedule of camp life. "

Airship technology will be focused for military use of troop movement. As the technology is employed, further innovations can be derived. Potentially miniaturization for flatbeds to allow for transport of goods without requiring a chull walking so slowly. 

And I just gave an example of how a sewing machine could be invented and used with fabrials. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

I meant a good 30 years ish and that is for a pretty simple and obviously useful invention.

It is simple to figure out how to divide a specific gemstone with a specific spren, and conjoin it? To know that specific type of gemstone would yield that type of result with that specific type of spren?

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Almost no one on Roshar has the money to buy a car even if someone figured out how to make one.  That is why I keep saying this will take at least two generations.  The population needs to build up wealth and know how.  Both hardware and software as some economists all them.

The car was to illustrate the point of how the assembly line affected industry. The car was a privileged item that the common man could not afford. The assembly line reduced to the price so that the common man could afford it, and set the stage for other competitors to follow suit. Not a monopoly. 

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Specifically ones that helped industrialization?

But that wasn't the point. At least for me. The point I was making is war drives innovation. Innovation that does not necessarily directly correlate (radar leading to microwaves). This would (to me) lead to innovation in fabrials. Innovation in fabrials would (to me) lead to developments in industry. Mass production of penicillin for instance is going to result in increased survival of children. Such a population boom could result in an increase in need of baby strollers. The increased demand of baby strollers could lead to the development cheaper and more efficient wheels via a different kind of rubber. That rubber could lead to other developments. That kind of innovation is what I am talking about and is what fueled the industrial revolution. 

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4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But the industrial revolution did not start because people sat down and said "hey I came up with this word. The industrial revolution. Lets do that!". Expansion of a new capital, with tools to further that expansion. 

The industrial revolution was after Europe's first colonies by several centuries. 

6 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why aren't fabrials considered mechanization? 

Because they are not used in industry due to costs, scientific inability, and the fact that no one has yet thought of it. 

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

During wartime there is most definitely a mass market, and again fabrials for mechanization. 

Governments are not the same as mass markets.  In fact the boom and bust of empires in terms of desire and ability to finance wars is not a good climate for opening a business. 

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And I just gave an example of how a sewing machine could be invented and used with fabrials. 

But no one is doing it.  You know what a sowing machine is, how it works, and what it is supposed to do.  The fact that something is possible does not mean anyone will come up with it.  Hank Green seems to have invented 2d glasses despite high demand and the fact that the way they work are easily understood and commonly known and the demand for them started in the 1950s.  Also it simply might not be cost effective yet and making it so will take time and capital investment.

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It is simple to figure out how to divide a specific gemstone with a specific spren, and conjoin it? To know that specific type of gemstone would yield that type of result with that specific type of spren?

From what we know of fabrail mechanics yeah.  Pairing is one of the basic kinds of fabrials.  What you are proposing even with your sowing machine design would take more moving parts(this is always a problem with mechines) and require another layer of adjustability.  We do not even know how that works.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The car was to illustrate the point of how the assembly line affected industry. The car was a privileged item that the common man could not afford. The assembly line reduced to the price so that the common man could afford it, and set the stage for other competitors to follow suit. Not a monopoly. 

Exactly.  By the end of the war you might be getting somewhere with luxury items that are too expensive for anyone but the government and really rich people like the early car.  For your information it took almost 50 years to go from the from the first expensive German automobiles to the readily available model T.

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53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But the industrial revolution did not start because people sat down and said "hey I came up with this word. The industrial revolution. Lets do that!". Expansion of a new capital, with tools to further that expansion. 

That is a necessary precondition, but it is not enough. A qualitative change in technology and methods is needed.

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Guess we are talking past each other because

1. Sebarial already has factories. It is a concept already in use

He has facilities for production with an internal division of labor. Such facilities existed already in classical antiquity. Those may become cores of factories, but they are not yet. No mechanization, no external power.

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

2. stormlight as a source of power is prevalent and renewable.

Potentially. But it is not used for that in production

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

3. the fabrial revolution that is beginning 

Maybe. It may be used for production, or it may be used only in warfare.

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why aren't fabrials considered mechanization? 

Because they make nothing (with very few minor exceptions). Again, please note that if you fabrialize Cohesion or Tension it can very likely be done. I am not saying that it is impossible. I am saying that they are not doing it and by the end of Oathbringer they do not know how. They may do so in the future, but it is not inevitable.

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

During wartime there is most definitely a mass market, and again fabrials for mechanization. 

There is a mass demand. Whether it pays of in production after the war and whether it leads to mechanization in production is an open question. And the leadership of the Knights Radiant being Alethi, the artefabrians may just be drafted or have the prices set by law.

53 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But that wasn't the point. At least for me. The point I was making is war drives innovation. Innovation that does not necessarily directly correlate (radar leading to microwaves). This would (to me) lead to innovation in fabrials.

In wars after the industrial revolution had already started. Earlier wars at the scale of a desolation destroyed civilization.

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59 minutes ago, Karger said:

The industrial revolution was after Europe's first colonies by several centuries. 

I do not think we can pick a period on earth that is analoguous to Roshar considering stormlight, fabrial tech, span reeds and medical knowledge which do not coincide with the eras you mention. 

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

Because they are not used in industry due to costs, scientific inability, and the fact that no one has yet thought of it. 

the industrian revolution was the application of mechanization in manners it was not used before. The fabrial revolution would be the application of mechanization in manners it was not used before. 

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

Governments are not the same as mass markets.  In fact the boom and bust of empires in terms of desire and ability to finance wars is not a good climate for opening a business. 

For the Alethi government and market are one. The alethi are all about armies. Their entire civilization is built with that in mind. the highest calling for an alethi is to fight. 

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

But no one is doing it.  You know what a sowing machine is, how it works, and what it is supposed to do.  The fact that something is possible does not mean anyone will come up with it.  Hank Green seems to have invented 2d glasses despite high demand and the fact that the way they work are easily understood and commonly known and the demand for them started in the 1950s.  Also it simply might not be cost effective yet and making it so will take time and capital investment.

And it doesn't mean no one will. Clocks were thought of. Plumbing was thought of. Hand cranked sewing machines were a thing for a long time and came to prominence during the Civil War. Sebarial mentioned textile mills that will produce uniforms faster and cheaper than anyone else. You mean to tell me he would not develop that?

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

From what we know of fabrail mechanics yeah.  Pairing is one of the basic kinds of fabrials.  What you are proposing even with your sowing machine design would take more moving parts(this is always a problem with mechines) and require another layer of adjustability.  We do not even know how that works.

It requires more moving parts on earth because of belts and etc. You would not need that with some fabrials. A timing mechanism turning on and off each fabrial in turn would accomplish the same thing. Attract and repel, attract and repel. Needle up and down. 

59 minutes ago, Karger said:

Exactly.  By the end of the war you might be getting somewhere with luxury items that are too expensive for anyone but the government and really rich people like the early car.  For your information it took almost 50 years to go from the from the first expensive German automobiles to the readily available model T.

The pocket watch I mentioned in my prior post was made cheaper during the civil war. So too was the car. 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That is a necessary precondition, but it is not enough. A qualitative change in technology and methods is needed.

And I see the fabrial revolution as that change in technology. You don't. As we said at this point we really are just speaking past each other. i guess we will just have to RAFO for book 4. 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He has facilities for production with an internal division of labor. Such facilities existed already in classical antiquity. Those may become cores of factories, but they are not yet. No mechanization, no external power.

No, the way things used to be done is in houses, with each individual doing the whole process from beginning to end. These are full on factories. 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Potentially. But it is not used for that in production

Yes it is. Soulcasters are used for the production of food, resources (wood, minerals), waste disposal and so on. They are not used enmasse in factories yet, but the usefulness is very apparent, and it is not that far of a hop to seeing further possibilities (as we see mentioned by Navani as I have mentioned in prior posts)

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Maybe. It may be used for production, or it may be used only in warfare.

The ideas Navani have come up with have not only been employed in warfare. In fact she muses to herself humorously that Dalinar's first thought was how it would affect combat, while she could see so many other possibilities. And she is among those who drive such ventures with not only her own engineering and creativity, but with her money, resources, and workers. 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Because they make nothing (with very few minor exceptions). Again, please note that if you fabrialize Cohesion or Tension it can very likely be done. I am not saying that it is impossible. I am saying that they are not doing it and by the end of Oathbringer they do not know how. They may do so in the future, but it is not inevitable.

There will be a year gap where Honor and Co will be exploring Urithiru, researching and revitalizing existent technology (which even if they cannot figure out how it was done in the past, it would lead to ideas and concepts that could accomplish the same goal but differently, such as the elevators for instance), access to the heralds, ancient spren, and their own technology so far. I keep coming back to the very back description of book 4. That says it all to me. 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

There is a mass demand. Whether it pays of in production after the war and whether it leads to mechanization in production is an open question. And the leadership of the Knights Radiant being Alethi, the artefabrians may just be drafted or have the prices set by law.

Via WoB there is a rising middle class in alethkar. Originally this class was limited because they were dark eyes and could not rise any further. Radiancy changes that. 

12 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

In wars after the industrial revolution had already started. Earlier wars at the scale of a desolation destroyed civilization.

As we have seen in Oathbringer, the desolation has not begun in the same manner as it has in the past. 

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21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I do not think we can pick a period on earth that is analoguous to Roshar considering stormlight, fabrial tech, span reeds and medical knowledge which do not coincide with the eras you mention. 

I am pointing out that the two phenomena are not necessarily related.

26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Yes it is. Soulcasters are used for the production of food, resources (wood, minerals), waste disposal and so on. They are not used enmasse in factories yet, but the usefulness is very apparent, and it is not that far of a hop to seeing further possibilities (as we see mentioned by Navani as I have mentioned in prior posts)

It is a very far hop.  It is an entirely new way of doing bushiness, making goods, seeing production and manufacturing.  People on Roshar now see soulcasters as mystical.  Far separate from fabrials.

29 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The ideas Navani have come up with have not only been employed in warfare. In fact she muses to herself humorously that Dalinar's first thought was how it would affect combat, while she could see so many other possibilities. And she is among those who drive such ventures with not only her own engineering and creativity, but with her money, resources, and workers. 

Regardless of what anyone thinks that kind of tec really only has military applications so far.  Maybe a bit in very large scale construction but I think scaffolding is better for several reasons.  At any rate assuming wars remain common they are likely going to be revered pretty much for warfare.  Even Navani is primarily interested in fabrails as a way to protect her family.  Her holly grail seems to have been shardplate for a very long time.

33 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

There will be a year gap where Honor and Co will be exploring Urithiru, researching and revitalizing existent technology (which even if they cannot figure out how it was done in the past, it would lead to ideas and concepts that could accomplish the same goal but differently, such as the elevators for instance), access to the heralds, ancient spren, and their own technology so far. I keep coming back to the very back description of book 4. That says it all to me. 

I mean this with respect but you vastly overestimate the capabilities of scientific understanding.  The manhattan project took four years and they were working from fairly well understood science with a ton of funding and they had a lot of the best minds on the planet which were selected from a much larger group of people in a better educated population.  Unless Khriss is on Roshar no one on the planet actually knows much about how the surges work or their full capabilities, the number of educated people is much smaller as is the population and given the financial crisis war and mass displacement funding research is going to be super hard.  Roshar was getting close to some scientific breakthroughs prior to the desolation and thanks to the radiants they now know a bit more.  However despite e=mc^2 coming out over a century ago our mass to energy capabilities are still limited to nuclear reactors and they are not pocket sized.  Industrialization is similarly going to take a while.

46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Via WoB there is a rising middle class in alethkar. Originally this class was limited because they were dark eyes and could not rise any further. Radiancy changes that. 

That just means that they have some money without having land.  Radiance does not change much it is only available to a limited number of people and statistically only about half will be Vorin.

47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

As we have seen in Oathbringer, the desolation has not begun in the same manner as it has in the past. 

I think he is talking about IRL wars like the thirty years war which beggared Europe for the rest of the 17th century.

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17 hours ago, Karger said:

I am pointing out that the two phenomena are not necessarily related.

Can you elaborate on what two phenomena you are referring to?

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It is a very far hop.  It is an entirely new way of doing bushiness, making goods, seeing production and manufacturing.  People on Roshar now see soulcasters as mystical.  Far separate from fabrials.

The individuals that will be driving the industry forward, and researching/employing fabrials in new and innovative ways do not see soulcasters as mystical. It is seen as a fabrial to research, understand, and find a way to create more or something analogous. This is mentioned by Navani when Jasnah contacts her about Shallan's broken soulcaster. 

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Regardless of what anyone thinks that kind of tec really only has military applications so far.  Maybe a bit in very large scale construction but I think scaffolding is better for several reasons.  At any rate assuming wars remain common they are likely going to be revered pretty much for warfare.  Even Navani is primarily interested in fabrails as a way to protect her family.  Her holly grail seems to have been shardplate for a very long time.

I disagree. Navani's multiple conversations with Dalinar on fabrials says otherwise to me. Navani thinks to herself in humor that of course Dalinar would hear of a fabrial innovation, and think in terms of its military applications. I need a moment to pull up that quote, but I have another below

 

Way of Kings page 848

Navani smiled " This is a special time to be alive; we're learning all kinds of things about fabrials. This, for instance, is a diminishing fabrial - it decreases something, in this case pain. it doesn't actually make the wound any better, but it might be a step in that direction. Either way, it's a completely different type from paired fabrials like the span reeds. If you could see the plans we have for the future...."

"Like what?" Adolin asked

"You'll find out eventually," Navani said, smiling mysteriously

 

 

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I mean this with respect but you vastly overestimate the capabilities of scientific understanding.  The manhattan project took four years and they were working from fairly well understood science with a ton of funding and they had a lot of the best minds on the planet which were selected from a much larger group of people in a better educated population.  Unless Khriss is on Roshar no one on the planet actually knows much about how the surges work or their full capabilities, the number of educated people is much smaller as is the population and given the financial crisis war and mass displacement funding research is going to be super hard.  Roshar was getting close to some scientific breakthroughs prior to the desolation and thanks to the radiants they now know a bit more.  However despite e=mc^2 coming out over a century ago our mass to energy capabilities are still limited to nuclear reactors and they are not pocket sized.  Industrialization is similarly going to take a while.

Industrialization is not dividing the atom to blow up a city. It is using fundamental practices that have existed for ages, and applying them in a unified manner to further progress. The industrial revolution was not developing new elements, or chemicals. It was not  inventing circuitry. It was realizing if you broke down a making something into multiple individual tasks that can be easily taught to individuals, and lining them up you could produce the same item faster, cheaper, and more efficiently. It was realizing if you used water to run mills, or pulleys with weights to move things, you could mill larger quantities than before, again resulting in faster, cheaper, and more efficient. It was realizing instead of taking a needle in a hand and move it over and over and over, you could attach a hand crank with a needle on its end, and you could move the fabric through it will turning that crank and accomplish the same task far faster, cheaper, and more efficient. These innovations do not require an entirely new view and understanding of science. It requires applications of existing technologies in new and innovative ways. Which is exactly what is happening with fabrials. They have reducing and I would assume amplifying fabrials. They have attracting and repelling fabrials. Those alone can lead to the development of countless machines that can take the place of the steam engine. And by Navani's own words, they are doing amazing things. 

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That just means that they have some money without having land.  Radiance does not change much it is only available to a limited number of people and statistically only about half will be Vorin.

The middle class is not to be dismissed so casually. In a growing industrialized world, owning land is not as important as owning capital. The new rich were factory owners, oil barons, car moguls. We already covered that I disagree on your math regarding the emerging radiants. 

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I think he is talking about IRL wars like the thirty years war which beggared Europe for the rest of the 17th century.

Yet it did not on Roshar. Because of the Heralds. Because of the Radiants. They found ways to carry on information. Some civilizations were lost, but on whole tradition and knowledge was able to pass on. Medical knowledge chief among it. Which is why I think it is problematic to try and find an earth analogue era to compare Roshar too. It is like taking a world that operates like the old west, with trains, and horses, yet they have laser guns and cyborgs. How can you predict their advancement in comparison to earth then when they already have bits of technology far beyond what they would on earth? That technology does not exist in a bubble. It informs on all aspects of their lives. 

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5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Can you elaborate on what two phenomena you are referring to?

Expansion of colonial empire and industrialization.  Or if you prefer eurocentrism.  The age of exploration and industrialization.

7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The individuals that will be driving the industry forward, and researching/employing fabrials in new and innovative ways do not see soulcasters as mystical. It is seen as a fabrial to research, understand, and find a way to create more or something analogous. This is mentioned by Navani when Jasnah contacts her about Shallan's broken soulcaster. 

There is a limit to what a few individuals can accomplish working alone.

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

These innovations do not require an entirely new view and understanding of science

Neither did inventing the atomic bomb.  The theory was already well understood and had been for some time.

10 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They have attracting and repelling fabrials. Those alone can lead to the development of countless machines that can take the place of the steam engine

As I have said several times the steam engine prefaced the industrial revolution by centuries.  To industrialize a society you have to have larger urban centers, cheaper food, mass markets, good transportation.  None of these exist or are likely to exist any time soon. 

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The middle class is not to be dismissed so casually. In a growing industrialized world, owning land is not as important as owning capital. The new rich were factory owners, oil barons, car moguls. We already covered that I disagree on your math regarding the emerging radiants. 

None of which can exist without mass markets which simply do not exist.  As to my math.  Do you think that we will get more then a few thousand radiants?  We have no evidence of that large a number of the correct spren at any period.

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Yet it did not on Roshar

Yes it did.  Civilization went down to the stone age.  The fact that they made faster recovery does not change the fact that for a generation at least the average person was living in systemic poverty.  It kind of reminds me of the european renaissance.  They had supposedly great art, scientific advancement, and new learning but the average person could not tell the difference.  GDP did not really increase and most people had to work the land just like they had for the last 30 generations.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It is like taking a world that operates like the old west, with trains, and horses, yet they have laser guns and cyborgs. How can you predict their advancement in comparison to earth then when they already have bits of technology far beyond what they would on earth?

Like this.  If everyone still uses horses and trains then they cannot afford the fuel costs of mechanized transport.  This means that they also likely cannot afford research or education and their society will not advance for many years scientifically without some very unexpected windfall or outside interference.

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17 minutes ago, Karger said:

Expansion of colonial empire and industrialization.  Or if you prefer eurocentrism.  The age of exploration and industrialization.

Ok, and can you elaborate on what you are trying to say? Just saying one sentence without context is making it difficult to respond. 

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

There is a limit to what a few individuals can accomplish working alone.

But there aren't a few individuals. Navani has a whole team herself. She speaks of renowned artifabrians across Roshar. We aren't talking 4 people. Navani alone has a whole task force (when Adolin checks on her in Words of Radiance). A whole branch of the ardentia is focused on scholarism and teaching women in such scholarly persuits. Whole countries have programs researching fabrial tech. The half shields is one example of this. Countries compete regarding such tech. 

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

Neither did inventing the atomic bomb.  The theory was already well understood and had been for some time.

A theory for a modern scientific civilization. The fundamentals of the industrial revolution does not require such levels. 

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

As I have said several times the steam engine prefaced the industrial revolution by centuries.  To industrialize a society you have to have larger urban centers, cheaper food, mass markets, good transportation.  None of these exist or are likely to exist any time soon. 

So you are agreeing with me sorta? It is not the tech itself, but the innovations in employing said tech. This part I disagree, all those things developed along side industrialization. 

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

None of which can exist without mass markets which simply do not exist.  As to my math.  Do you think that we will get more then a few thousand radiants?  We have no evidence of that large a number of the correct spren at any period.

I disagree. There is a mass market developing that we see in the books. It develops along side industrialism. 

I disagree on your math. There is plenty of evidence that radiant recruitment has had a resurgence, and that was just across the span of Oathbringer. There is going to be a year gap. 

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes it did.  Civilization went down to the stone age.  The fact that they made faster recovery does not change the fact that for a generation at least the average person was living in systemic poverty.  It kind of reminds me of the european renaissance.  They had supposedly great art, scientific advancement, and new learning but the average person could not tell the difference.  GDP did not really increase and most people had to work the land just like they had for the last 30 generations.

On our planet, the people recovering from those occurrences did not have access to the things the Rosharans have. Which is again why I do not think it is helpful to try and apply it universally. 

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

Like this.  If everyone still uses horses and trains then they cannot afford the fuel costs of mechanized transport.  This means that they also likely cannot afford research or education and their society will not advance for many years scientifically without some very unexpected windfall or outside interference.

But then why are cyborgs a thing? What if trains and horses are still a thing because of the terrain? That personal vehicles cannot navigate. Or maybe rubber is not available. Or maybe there is a solar event that makes aerial travel impossible. So the people in this situation can live far longer (via cybernetics), and have developed industrialization, but still need trains and horses. Horses they bred and genetically modified to cover the terrain better. 

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41 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Ok, and can you elaborate on what you are trying to say? Just saying one sentence without context is making it difficult to respond. 

Industrialization and the expansion of colonial empires are not related phenomena(at least they were not on earth).  You previously claimed something along the lines of.  "They involved similar mindsets" I demonstrated otherwise.

44 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But there aren't a few individuals. Navani has a whole team herself. She speaks of renowned artifabrians across Roshar. We aren't talking 4 people. Navani alone has a whole task force (when Adolin checks on her in Words of Radiance). A whole branch of the ardentia is focused on scholarism and teaching women in such scholarly persuits. Whole countries have programs researching fabrial tech. The half shields is one example of this. Countries compete regarding such tech. 

They are still a selective group that only includes intellectuals of a moderately privileged background.  Khriss actually notes that she had a hard time infiltrating them which could indicate that they guard knowledge.  This is a very bad environment for research.

50 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So you are agreeing with me sorta? It is not the tech itself, but the innovations in employing said tech

And the intellectual, government, military, and financial problems but yeah.  I see no real problems with the technology itself.  I thought we agreed on this several pages ago.

56 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

A theory for a modern scientific civilization. The fundamentals of the industrial revolution does not require such levels. 

My point was that this was a much better understood subject. 

57 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

On our planet, the people recovering from those occurrences did not have access to the things the Rosharans have

They also did not have to worry about highstorms and everstorms destroying everything if the infrastructure collapsed.  Think about all the stuff that we have now.  How much good would it do us if we suffered a 30% global destruction?

59 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But then why are cyborgs a thing?

Because the parts can be imported fairly cheaply. 

59 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

What if trains and horses are still a thing because of the terrain?

We have all terrain cars.  They should too.  If the terrain is to hard for those then they will not use trains or horses either.  The horses would injure themselves and the trains tracks would take forever to build.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Or maybe rubber is not available

You can make synthetic rubber out of oil fairly easily.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Or maybe there is a solar event that makes aerial travel impossible

I never said anything about aerial travel.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Horses they bred and genetically modified to cover the terrain better. 

Then I would not call them horses.

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1 hour ago, Karger said:

Industrialization and the expansion of colonial empires are not related phenomena(at least they were not on earth).  You previously claimed something along the lines of.  "They involved similar mindsets" I demonstrated otherwise.

Genuine question, when?

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They are still a selective group that only includes intellectuals of a moderately privileged background.  Khriss actually notes that she had a hard time infiltrating them which could indicate that they guard knowledge.  This is a very bad environment for research.

The group Navani used included ardents as well as scholarly women. As I mentioned other countries have their own teams researching, as well as independant researchers. So the number is not exclusive, nor insignificant. To me it is a wonderful environment for research. You have governments across the planet funneling money towards technological advances. 

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And the intellectual, government, military, and financial problems but yeah.  I see no real problems with the technology itself.  I thought we agreed on this several pages ago.

Then why were you bringing it up? I'm confused

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My point was that this was a much better understood subject. 

Splitting an atom which is not observable via the human eye is a much better understood subject, than the assembly line?

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They also did not have to worry about highstorms and everstorms destroying everything if the infrastructure collapsed.  Think about all the stuff that we have now.  How much good would it do us if we suffered a 30% global destruction?

Highstorms do not destroy civilization every time they pass. The planet advanced with them in mind, and not every inch of the planet experiences the same severity as the shattered plains (the reshi islands and pure lake for instance). And you are right, our planet does not have a continually renewing resource that we already know how to harness to full power our technology. We are attempting to do so via solar, but we are far far far off from the capabilities we see in stormlight. Just leave some gemstones out in the highstorm, and oh look, you have indoor lighting. No giant generators, or dams, or nuclear fueled electric power. The same power source that will be used to power factories, and vehicles. Not coal, or oil, or gasoline. 

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Because the parts can be imported fairly cheaply. 

But they have the technological acumen to produce those parts. This is not a colony. This is a full on civilization that on this planet developed in that manner. They are not getting resources from an exterior body. Its them. 

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We have all terrain cars.  They should too.  If the terrain is to hard for those then they will not use trains or horses either.  The horses would injure themselves and the trains tracks would take forever to build.

All terrain is most certainly not all terrain. You still need to clear out trees to drive through jungles. You are still crem out of luck if you have to go up a narrow pass through cliffside. Beasts of burden however still can. Blasting and building static means of transporting large amounts would be preferable. 

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You can make synthetic rubber out of oil fairly easily.

And if there isn't oil on this world? They have another means of powering their inventions. 

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I never said anything about aerial travel.

But I did. In the scenario I brought up. The purpose was to present another civilization that could have hallmarks of a pre-industrial society, while having access to advance technologies. And thereby show that it is problematic to compare such a civilization with our own planet's advancement. That just because this place has horses, and trains still, does not mean they are analogous in all ways with a civilization on our planet with horses and trains, especially when that fictional society has access to technologies that we did not. 

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Then I would not call them horses.

But they are horses. They are just heartier, stronger, and able to handle more extreme conditions. But they are still horses, not vehicles.

Edited by Pathfinder
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15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Genuine question, when?

22 hours ago, Karger said:
23 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

But the industrial revolution did not start because people sat down and said "hey I came up with this word. The industrial revolution. Lets do that!". Expansion of a new capital, with tools to further that expansion. 

The industrial revolution was after Europe's first colonies by several centuries. 

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The group Navani used included ardents as well as scholarly women. As I mentioned other countries have their own teams researching, as well as independant researchers. So the number is not exclusive, nor insignificant. To me it is a wonderful environment for research. You have governments across the planet funneling money towards technological advances. 

This quote from the arcanum reminds me a lot of alchemists. 

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Five groupings of fabrial have been discovered so far. The methods of their creation are carefully guarded by the artifabrian community

We still have no idea how they managed some of the stuff that they did (Greek fire for example) and it took centuries for the practice to turn into modern chemistry.  To this day they are regarded as one of the worst scientific communities in human history as without anyone being able to independently verify the results of their experiments or question what they meant the entire practice dissolved into mysticism.  They appear to be ready to start lifting the veil on how they do things but it is going to take a while for this information to become generally known and understood.

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Then why were you bringing it up? I'm confused

I did not you did.  You responded to this quote

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:
Quote

As I have said several times the steam engine prefaced the industrial revolution by centuries.  To industrialize a society you have to have larger urban centers, cheaper food, mass markets, good transportation.  None of these exist or are likely to exist any time soon. 

So you are agreeing with me sorta? It is not the tech itself, but the innovations in employing said tech. This part I disagree, all those things developed along side industrialization. 

25 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Splitting an atom which is not observable via the human eye is a much better understood subject, than the assembly line?

Yes actually.  The Ford assembly line(kind of the gold standard) took years to develop and it took another decade for it to become a standard worldwide phenomena. 

30 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Just leave some gemstones out in the highstorm, and oh look, you have indoor lighting. No giant generators, or dams, or nuclear fueled electric power. The same power source that will be used to power factories, and vehicles. Not coal, or oil, or gasoline. 

I am glad you brought up solar power.  It could clearly be used to fuel our industry and commerce and lighting but is not.  Their are a bunch of reasons.  One is that it is expensive.  Another is that some local governments make policies against it.  Another is that the workforce that would maintain such a system just has not been trained yet.  With labor shortages most people will probably just do what they can to produce enough food locally.  I doubt that they will be able to produce the right kind of gemstones locally or how experts turn them into fabrails or move fabrails easily from one place to another.

34 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But they have the technological acumen to produce those parts. This is not a colony. This is a full on civilization that on this planet developed in that manner. They are not getting resources from an exterior body. Its them. 

This implies that they have heavy industry.  If that is true they should be able to shape the landscape to add roads and as such should have cars.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

All terrain is most certainly not all terrain. You still need to clear out trees to drive through jungles. You are still crem out of luck if you have to go up a narrow pass through cliffside. Beasts of burden however still can. Blasting and building static means of transporting large amounts would be preferable. 

If they have this kind of tec they can build roads just as easily as train tracks and would have done so.

36 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

And if there isn't oil on this world? They have another means of powering their inventions. 

https://www.ehow.com/about_6596398_pvc-vs_-nitrile-gloves.html

Rubber substitutes are not that hard.  You can make them out of rock if you want to.

37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But they are horses. They are just heartier, stronger, and able to handle more extreme conditions. But they are still horses, not vehicles.

No they are animals of burden.  If pigs have wings then they are pidgins.  Also what you are doing is called GIGO(garbage in garbage out).  If you feed me incomplete data my answers will be similarly incomplete.  Could Sanderson come up with some completely wild spren that increases intelligence of everyone and gives them the know how to solve all their problems?  Of course!  I am still not going to take such a thing into consideration because it has not happened yet.

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19 minutes ago, Karger said:

Ah I understand now. You misunderstood expansion of capital, as colonial expansion. Yeah no that is not what I said. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

This quote from the arcanum reminds me a lot of alchemists. 

A community that spans the planet and that is backed by governments that want tech to advance.

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

We still have no idea how they managed some of the stuff that they did (Greek fire for example) and it took centuries for the practice to turn into modern chemistry.  To this day they are regarded as one of the worst scientific communities in human history as without anyone being able to independently verify the results of their experiments or question what they meant the entire practice dissolved into mysticism.  They appear to be ready to start lifting the veil on how they do things but it is going to take a while for this information to become generally known and understood.

Now imagine if we could talk to someone who lived during that time period that greek fire was invented and could actually tell us how it was done? Like the Heralds?

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

I did not you did.  You responded to this quote

Right, so based on your subsequent response, why did you post what you originally posted if we already agreed on it? Hence my confusion. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes actually.  The Ford assembly line(kind of the gold standard) took years to develop and it took another decade for it to become a standard worldwide phenomena. 

But in a prior post I showed references that the assembly line was not a new idea. It had been used for awhile by various cultures. The concept was existent for awhile. it was just combined with other technologies. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am glad you brought up solar power.  It could clearly be used to fuel our industry and commerce and lighting but is not.  Their are a bunch of reasons.  One is that it is expensive.  Another is that some local governments make policies against it.  Another is that the workforce that would maintain such a system just has not been trained yet.  With labor shortages most people will probably just do what they can to produce enough food locally.  I doubt that they will be able to produce the right kind of gemstones locally or how experts turn them into fabrails or move fabrails easily from one place to another.

So how would earth use solar power. Well you have to build cells to draw in the power. You have to build a battery and wiring. You have to angle it correctly to take in as much sun as possible. And finally the efficiency of the cells to draw in power is a big hurdle.

How would you use stormlight power on Roshar? Leave gemstones out during a highstorm. Congratulations you have stormlight power. How would you use it to power a fabrial? Insert the charged gemstone into the fabrial. Congradulations, you have a powered fabrial. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

This implies that they have heavy industry.  If that is true they should be able to shape the landscape to add roads and as such should have cars.

Why develop in that direction when they have a perfectly good solution in heartier horses that can accomplish the same goal?

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

If they have this kind of tec they can build roads just as easily as train tracks and would have done so.

Why when the development appeals to biological instead of purely technical. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

Rubber substitutes are not that hard.  You can make them out of rock if you want to.

But why would they need to when horses work perfectly well?

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

No they are animals of burden.  If pigs have wings then they are pidgins. 

Ok um I never said the horses would have wings? Then they would be pegasi. They are horses. They are stronger, studier, and more able to handle extreme conditions, but genetically are still horses. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also what you are doing is called GIGO(garbage in garbage out).  If you feed me incomplete data my answers will be similarly incomplete. 

But we have incomplete data regarding Roshar now. You are stating Roshar works a certain way when you don't have all those details. So I am just carrying the scenario I presented to its next conclusion. 

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

Could Sanderson come up with some completely wild spren that increases intelligence of everyone and gives them the know how to solve all their problems?  Of course!  I am still not going to take such a thing into consideration because it has not happened yet.

Why would Sanderson need to create a completely wild spren that increases intelligence when they have access to fabrials that can be developed to solve these problems?

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19 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why would Sanderson need to create a completely wild spren that increases intelligence when they have access to fabrials that can be developed to solve these problems?

8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

A community that spans the planet and that is backed by governments that want tech to advance.

Also describes alchemists I am afraid. This https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alchemy#Medieval_Europe goes into more detail but alchemists got government funding and were involved in real sometimes useful sometimes useless projects.  Entrepreneurial opportunities were common for the alchemists of Renaissance Europe. Alchemists were contracted by the elite for practical purposes related to mining, medical services, and the production of chemicals, medicines, metals, and gemstones but also for angel summoning, divination, and as  astrology.  

13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Now imagine if we could talk to someone who lived during that time period that greek fire was invented and could actually tell us how it was done? Like the Heralds?

Can you tell me how to make a ford assembly line?  I am not talking generalities either I mean could you set one up?  Weather or not knowlege exists is often a different question from weather or not that knowledge has people that can actually use it.  This is why educating your population is important for industrialization.  If the necessary knowledge is only usable by a few elites it can not be used.

16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why develop in that direction when they have a perfectly good solution in heartier horses that can accomplish the same goal?

If their horses are that good then they are not horses.  Also horses are difficult to care for, have to be exercised, fed and die of old age.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

They are horses. They are stronger, studier, and more able to handle extreme conditions, but genetically are still horses

If they are that good then I seriously doubt it.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

But we have incomplete data regarding Roshar now. You are stating Roshar works a certain way when you don't have all those details. So I am just carrying the scenario I presented to its next conclusion. 

Yes except your scenario does not hold up to present data.  Maybe future data will vindicate you but that does not make you correct currently.

20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Why would Sanderson need to create a completely wild spren that increases intelligence when they have access to fabrials that can be developed to solve these problems?

It was an exaggerated analogy of what could happen but what I will not think about right now.

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