At which point becomes mass awareness of and mass access to the Cognitive Realm inevitable?

[+Oltux72]

Roshar has a tech level of about the 17th century without gun powder. Hence they have no mass transport. Hence perpendicularities can be inaccessible for everybody but exceptional cases. Yet I cannot see this at late 19th or early 20th century levels of technology. If they had that level of technology they would have a railway to the perpendicularity.
But would it be open to everybody? Not necessarily. The Knights Radiant may want to control travel. We are seeing the same development on Taldaine. Autonomy does not pursue a liberal policy on travel. The Elantrians keep the pool to themselves.

But there is a world I cannot see this apply to. The Scadrians will soon map the whole planet. They have a free press. Within at most twenty years the perpendicularity will be known to the general public of the northern continent. I cannot help and suspect we will see "Allomancer Jak in the Realm of Mists" and the University of Elendel sending research teams there.

[Quantus]

I think the "Inevitability" will increase with overall available Investiture, but can be wildly changed and/or suppressed based on the cultures involved.  Roshar is probably top of the list since the realmics are so very In Yo' Face with the Spren and natural Stormlight Cycle.  Scardial by comparison had two feuding Shards, but even the New Vessel was basically unaware of the wider Cosmere until he was influenced and/or contacted by the outside.  Sel spawned the Ire, but then managed to almost entirely forget even the basics of Elantris and AonDor.  And your lesser shardworlds could easily have nothing supernatural enough to ever get them started on Realmics in the first place, leaving good ol' fashioned Science to pick up the slack.  

[Karger]

Perpendicularities are not mobile so you need some form of global trade.  They also have limited uses and I think scadrial which is going to go 1980s soon might keep a perpendicularity secret.  Remember perpendicularities are where you get harmamonium and we don't want everyone having as much as they want.

[+Oltux72]

3 minutes ago, Karger said:

Perpendicularities are not mobile so you need some form of global trade.  They also have limited uses and I think scadrial which is going to go 1980s soon might keep a perpendicularity secret.  Remember perpendicularities are where you get harmamonium and we don't want everyone having as much as they want.

While your government is an assembly of hundreds of politicians corrupt to a smaller or larger degree? If you have an influx of Harmonium people would ask whence the substance comes from. How do you keep that secret on Scadrial? And if it becomes known you may keep the general public out, but surely you would have to send researchers through. And they would talk. Scadrial has no real military and their god is a scholar who values free expression.

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

If you have an influx of Harmonium people would ask whence the substance comes from. How do you keep that secret on Scadrial?

We say it comes from a secure location that we have cordoned off to prevent theft.  Some way the US keeps secrets with classified information.

8 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

And they would talk. Scadrial has no real military and their god is a scholar who values free expression.

I think by era three they will have a military.  We know the southerners have one so the northerners will have one by now.  Harmony won't intervene and you make scholars swear to secrecy and go through screening.  Maybe they are blindfolded on their way there to add a level of security.

[Pathfinder]

I think there are four really big things that would result in Roshar jumping ahead in cognitive realm access/travel. (some is theoretical)

 

1. Roshar used to do so normally. Elsecallers have worldhopped in ages past. There is already a strong trade presence in the cognitive realm, and Brandon has said there is regular travel between Nalthis and Roshar

2. Honor's perpendicularity is mobile. It moves. That lends greater access to the general population "in the know". People don't have to all travel or funnel to one place. They just have to know what time to be at a certain place to "hitch a ride"

3. Dalinar can create a perpendicularity. Elsecallers and Willshapers create mini perpendicularities. Yes to coincides with the earlier point of Knight Radiant regulation, but proliferation lends to availability. If there is only one way to on the block, it limits who has access to it. If there are multiple, even if regulated (like the airline industry for example), it still increases access

4. So I had a fourth one in mind, but in the process of typing it totally left my head, so I am leaving this space for when it comes back to me. 

edit: for number 4. Just remembered! Oathgates theoretically can allow transfer from the physical to the cognitive normally. If that is the case, then not only do you have a mobile perpendicularity to use, or one created by Dalinar, or ones created by who knows how many Elsecallers, and Willshapers, but you also have 10 locations (oathgates) across the globe where you can transfer. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

I agree with pathfinder on Roshar having a more accessible CR although I am not sure the Honor perpendicularity will every be practical in either form.  However there are enough options on Roshar that this is a moot point anyway.  I am personally hoping for a Braize invasion at some point.  I think it would be awesome.

[teknopathetic]

Oathgates also we’re once able to move people safely between realms (though Honour forbids that now). Also, a corrupted gate was able to move people into the cognitive realm, but an unmade was also involved so who knows the exact mechanics there.

Id love to know how far apart Oathgates can be. Could we move one end to Ashyn? To Nalthis? Does the difficulty in moving Spren make this impossible? 

 

 

Edited February 26, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Karger]

22 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Id love to know how far apart Oathgates can be. Could we move one end to Ashyn? To Nalthis? Does the difficulty in moving Spren make this impossible? 

I do not know if Oathgates can be moved at all.

[DiePie]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

I do not know if Oathgates can be moved at all.

I think he meant, like, building new oathgates

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

3. Dalinar can create a perpendicularity. Elsecallers and Willshapers create mini perpendicularities. Yes to coincides with the earlier point of Knight Radiant regulation, but proliferation lends to availability. If there is only one way to on the block, it limits who has access to it. If there are multiple, even if regulated (like the airline industry for example), it still increases access

If Surgebinders can create mini-perpendicularities, doesn't that mean that certain fabrials can be made to simulate that?

10 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Roshar has a tech level of about the 17th century without gun powder.

I honestly thought that their technology was closer to that of pre-exploration age Europe (like 14th or 15th centuries). They don't seem to be industrializing any time soon, though they do have a concept of science and are at the beginning of a scientific revolution.Though along with that their society and culture seems to be closer to the renaissance.

Also, there is First of the Sun, which is shown to be industrializing rapidly, though it is supposedly set farther in the future so they most likely won't be the first. Does first of the Sun even have a perpendicularity?

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, DiePie said:

I think he meant, like, building new oathgates

We do not know if that is possible either.

3 minutes ago, DiePie said:

If Surgebinders can create mini-perpendicularities, doesn't that mean that certain fabrials can be made to simulate that?

That is what oathgates are.

3 minutes ago, DiePie said:

Though along with that their society and culture seems to be closer to the renaissance.

You are correct.  Roshar is supposed to be renaissance-gunpowder.

3 minutes ago, DiePie said:

Does first of the Sun even have a perpendicularity

Yes but it is on Paji.

Edited February 26, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

If Surgebinders can create mini-perpendicularities, doesn't that mean that certain fabrials can be made to simulate that?

As Karger said, theoretically that is what oathgates are. The prevailing theory (which I agree with) is that the black spren is an elsecaller spren, and the white spren is a willshaper spren. Though the willshaper spren looks weird for some reason. 

Quote

I honestly thought that their technology was closer to that of pre-exploration age Europe (like 14th or 15th centuries). They don't seem to be industrializing any time soon, though they do have a concept of science and are at the beginning of a scientific revolution.Though along with that their society and culture seems to be closer to the renaissance.

One thing to keep in mind when considering a society's technological level in regards to the cosmere is consider where their magic is sourced. Scadrial has more advanced metallurgy than they should of a similar society at their level because of the world's magic system. So too with Roshar. Their science in gunpowder has retarded due to the introduction of fabrials, but their science in geology is more advanced than it would be otherwise due to the value of gemstones (the cut of gemstones was mentioned specifically if I recall correctly). Both are supported via WoB. 

Edited February 26, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

38 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So too with Roshar. Their science in gunpowder has retarded due to the introduction of fabrials, but their science in geology is more advanced than it would be otherwise due to the value of gemstones (the cut of gemstones was mentioned specifically if I recall correctly). Both are supported via WoB. 

I am not sure that Rosharans actually know anything about geology in the conventional sense(because of how weirdly their continent formed).  Their equivilent might actually be more similar to archaeology.  I better example is probably their understanding of mathematics and things like pressure, humidity, and wind speed which they use to predict highstorms.

[DiePie]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

One thing to keep in mind when considering a society's technological level in regards to the cosmere is consider where their magic is sourced. Scadrial has more advanced metallurgy than they should of a similar society at their level because of the world's magic system. So too with Roshar. Their science in gunpowder has retarded due to the introduction of fabrials, but their science in geology is more advanced than it would be otherwise due to the value of gemstones (the cut of gemstones was mentioned specifically if I recall correctly). Both are supported via WoB.

That makes a lot more sense now. However, without the industrial revolution, things like global trade and the improved labor conditions that came post-industrial revolution is what's required to make mass awareness and mass access to the cognitive realm possible. So, while I may not have given Roshar credit for its scientific advancements, without focus on machinery (or some other way of improving industrial and agricultural efficiency), these achievements are not necessarily relevant.

 

3 hours ago, Karger said:

3 hours ago, DiePie said:

If Surgebinders can create mini-perpendicularities, doesn't that mean that certain fabrials can be made to simulate that?

That is what oathgates are.

I was thinking of a sort of a individual person fabrial that allowed you to jump between dimensions, though that now seems like a jump from a train to a car, and the train (the oathgate) is much more likely to be produced before it's economically feasible for these "cars".

[teknopathetic]

Roshar also has advanced medical technology since they can use rot-spren to gauge the actual effectiveness of medicines and anti-septics. In our world even washing hands before surgery wasn't something achieved consistently until around 1890-1910 for most of the western world.

Spren might allow other technological leaps if you can connect what brings/removes the spren with what processes are actually working around you. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Thanatos]

Also Roshar has a high oxygen atmosphere.

Like to see someone fire a gun their.

[+Invocation]

31 minutes ago, teknopathetic said:

Spren might allow other technological leaps if you can connect what brings the spren with what processes are actually working around you. 

Like their forays into quantum measurement, even if they don't know that's what it is.

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, DiePie said:

That makes a lot more sense now. However, without the industrial revolution, things like global trade and the improved labor conditions that came post-industrial revolution is what's required to make mass awareness and mass access to the cognitive realm possible. So, while I may not have given Roshar credit for its scientific advancements, without focus on machinery (or some other way of improving industrial and agricultural efficiency), these achievements are not necessarily relevant.

Exactly. You need the printing press, mass media, mass literacy, fast communications and mass travel. Roshar has some of that or a magic substitute, but they lack the economic development basically.
I would say that it is inevitable that Roshar will now see organized research into Shadesmar and looking for other worlds, but that is not teh same thing as mass awareness. If teh Knights Radiant should suffer a massive defeat, the knowledge can be lost again.

[Pathfinder]

16 hours ago, Karger said:

I am not sure that Rosharans actually know anything about geology in the conventional sense(because of how weirdly their continent formed).  Their equivilent might actually be more similar to archaeology.  I better example is probably their understanding of mathematics and things like pressure, humidity, and wind speed which they use to predict highstorms.

I do think they know geology in a conventional sense because crem still does pile up and cause strata. They have mining technology. True gemstones largely come from the local fauna, they still do prize mining minerals like marble enough that it is profitable to do so. Now having said that, I was more referring to gemstones, and could not think of a term that focuses on that, so I just used geology as a catch all. I agree specifically geology in regards outside of gemstones is probably at a comparable level, but specifically regarding gemstones they are more advanced to a degree.  

14 hours ago, DiePie said:

That makes a lot more sense now. However, without the industrial revolution, things like global trade and the improved labor conditions that came post-industrial revolution is what's required to make mass awareness and mass access to the cognitive realm possible. So, while I may not have given Roshar credit for its scientific advancements, without focus on machinery (or some other way of improving industrial and agricultural efficiency), these achievements are not necessarily relevant.

I would argue they are currently undergoing an industrial revolution. Just whereas on earth it was via steam and coal, on Roshar they us stormlight. Using attracting and repelling fabrials as a system of pumps for instance was mentioned in the novels. Span reeds once developed further could potentially take place of the printing press (assuming they learn how to conjoin multiple pens, and then develop a mechanism to move the first one). We see in Navani a very real desire to develop fabrials and mechanize them. 

14 hours ago, DiePie said:

I was thinking of a sort of a individual person fabrial that allowed you to jump between dimensions, though that now seems like a jump from a train to a car, and the train (the oathgate) is much more likely to be produced before it's economically feasible for these "cars".

It looks like the fabrial form of transportation is limited between two static locations. We also see that with Elantris on Sel. There are "warp" pads, not a personal teleporter. 

13 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

Roshar also has advanced medical technology since they can use rot-spren to gauge the actual effectiveness of medicines and anti-septics. In our world even washing hands before surgery wasn't something achieved consistently until around 1890-1910 for most of the western world.

Spren might allow other technological leaps if you can connect what brings/removes the spren with what processes are actually working around you. 

Further due to the "wisdom of the heralds", they also know about anesthesia which wasn't a thing even longer in earth history

13 hours ago, Invocation said:

Like their forays into quantum measurement, even if they don't know that's what it is.

I am definitely excited to see them pursue this further!

5 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. You need the printing press, mass media, mass literacy, fast communications and mass travel. Roshar has some of that or a magic substitute, but they lack the economic development basically.
I would say that it is inevitable that Roshar will now see organized research into Shadesmar and looking for other worlds, but that is not teh same thing as mass awareness. If teh Knights Radiant should suffer a massive defeat, the knowledge can be lost again.

Admittedly the desolation might put a kink into things, but I feel Roshar was definitely headed in that direction. Though as a counter, a large chunk of our technological advances can be sourced during wars, or through military application. So if anything the desolation could theoretically accelerate their industrial revolution. 

[Karger]

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I agree specifically geology in regards outside of gemstones is probably at a comparable level, but specifically regarding gemstones they are more advanced to a degree.

That might be more of an art/craftsmanship then a science though.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

That might be more of an art/craftsmanship then a science though.

So I googled it out of curiosity and apparently "gemology" really is a thing lol. It is a geoscience and is a branch of mineralogy. It is a science dealing with natural and artificial gemstone materials. 

[+Invocation]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I am definitely excited to see them pursue this further!

You and me both, my friend. Spren measurement will propel Rosharan science like nothing else, and it's absolutely sure to be interesting. I can imagine gun embankments linked to a single firing mechanism, Navani's flying ships hitting floating island status, easy maglev trains, and an easier way to make stormshelters once they figure out how to recreate Soulcasting fabrials fully with a preprogrammed structure to cast.

[DiePie]

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I would argue they are currently undergoing an industrial revolution. Just whereas on earth it was via steam and coal, on Roshar they us stormlight. Using attracting and repelling fabrials as a system of pumps for instance was mentioned in the novels. Span reeds once developed further could potentially take place of the printing press (assuming they learn how to conjoin multiple pens, and then develop a mechanism to move the first one). We see in Navani a very real desire to develop fabrials and mechanize them.

9 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Exactly. You need the printing press, mass media, mass literacy, fast communications and mass travel. Roshar has some of that or a magic substitute, but they lack the economic development basically.

Your right in that they are progressing technologically at a staggering rate. However, this is not like the Industrial revolution in our world, which increased the earth's production capabilities with factories and machinery, that is what allowed us to develop economically to the point we are at today; and without that industrial and communications infustructure/technology, most people will be too poor to take an interest in the cognitive realm on Roshar. So, assuming that the oathgates are rebuilt and maintained, that the desolation doesn't set the people back to the stone age, the only people who have the economic base to take an interest in the cognitive realm are the upper class (nobles and successful merchants). I don't think that such a small portion of the population is what OP means by this.

Or maybe I'm wrong and in coming books fabrials will take the place of machinery and allow Rosharans to enjoy the same economic prosperity that happened to us on Earth. Rhythms of War is supposed to involve a technological arms race and as was pointed out before: 

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

admittedly the desolation might put a kink into things, but I feel Roshar was definitely headed in that direction. Though as a counter, a large chunk of our technological advances can be sourced during wars, or through military application. So if anything the desolation could theoretically accelerate their industrial revolution. 

 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, DiePie said:

Your right in that they are progressing technologically at a staggering rate. However, this is not like the Industrial revolution in our world, which increased the earth's production capabilities with factories and machinery, that is what allowed us to develop economically to the point we are at today; and without that industrial and communications infustructure/technology, most people will be too poor to take an interest in the cognitive realm on Roshar. So, assuming that the oathgates are rebuilt and maintained, that the desolation doesn't set the people back to the stone age, the only people who have the economic base to take an interest in the cognitive realm are the upper class (nobles and successful merchants). I don't think that such a small portion of the population is what OP means by this.

Or maybe I'm wrong and in coming books fabrials will take the place of machinery and allow Rosharans to enjoy the same economic prosperity that happened to us on Earth. Rhythms of War is supposed to involve a technological arms race and as was pointed out before: 

 

We do have WoB that say Roshar is headed towards magitech. I guess I am just confused why fabrials, which would be more environmentally and renewably sound (assuming they don't wipe out gemheart production) couldn't accomplish for Roshar, the same thing that factories and the steam engine did on Earth. Conjoined fabrials could lead to mass production of goods if they learn to split the gemstone more than once. Soulcasting to produce resources instead of having to depend on forests and refineries. The "screens" hinted at in Urithiru for potentially instantaneous communication. Centralized heating and cooling, as well as air pressure. Regrowth for food production. 

I guess for me, on Roshar, fabrials are the machines for the industrial revolution. I am just unsure why they couldn't be. 

 

edit: Oh and we have WoB that the upper nahn merchant darkeyes are becoming a new larger populated middle class. So there is the funding. 

Edited February 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[DiePie]

2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I guess for me, on Roshar, fabrials are the machines for the industrial revolution. I am just unsure why they couldn't be.

Maybe your right. I don't see how fabrials could be used to manufacture items (such as clothing, or furniture etc.) which is why I don't think that fabrials could completely replace an industrial revolution. Though if what your saying is true, and fabrials can grow enough food for the entire populace of Roshar, then we may not need technology to produce those items anyways (magical or otherwise), as being able to move 90% of the population to something other than food production could create the economic revolution that would be required.

Though I guess we just have to see what fabrials can or can't do in the future.