Jump to content

Shallan's father's Soulcaster, Luesh, and the Real Davar Ghostblood(s)


robardin

Recommended Posts


EDIT: only after I hit the "post" button did I realize what a novella I managed to put together over a few days on this subject.

So in the interest of TLDR (you can read the details below if you want):

  • Luesh is the source of all the info Shallan and her brothers had about where the Soulcaster came from, and that it was now broken.
  • Luesh was involved in coming up with the idea of Shallan seeking out Jasnah.
  • Kabsal's plan to kill Jasnah in Kharbranth would only ever work if a trusted person, like her ward, provided plausible food access to Jasnah.
  • Jasnah pointed out how even a successful theft of a genuine Kholin Soulcaster would have been an act of war against Alethkar itself (an insane risk).
  • Ergo, the GBs via Luesh set up that whole chain of events.
  • But, Luesh having a Ghostblood pendant instead of a tattoo is suspicious
  • So is his conveniently dying in his sleep soon after Shallan departed
  • Heleran being a Skybreaker with dead Shards never smelled right
  • Amaram seemed pretty confident Heleran had been sent by Thaidakar and the GBs
  • Pattern said there were lies Mraize's letter saying Heleran was a Skybreaker

Therefore, I submit:

Heleran was a GB, who recruited him as a member to gain access to the Davar household, where an Unmade was observed.

Someone else in the Davar household (after Helaran's last appearance there) was a GB plant, in addition to Luesh, who was a BG wanna-be like Tyn acting on orders from a shadow Ghostblood in command.

The "broken Soulcaster" was planted on Lin Davar for later discovery; the actual Soulcasting (which obviously had occurred) was done by another person with another Soulcaster (too much of a reach to speculate that it was done by a "native born" Surgebinder just yet).

I think signs point to one of Shallan's other brothers as being that Davar Ghostblood Behind The Scenes... And of the three, only Wikim seems like a fit.

And hey. Just who is Thaidakar anyway? Could it be Wikim Davar?! Nbody would be surprised if he could actually read/write on his own, right?

----

 

I know the theory that The Davar Soulcaster was a fake all along!! is a longstanding one (I found at least one thread on this dating back to 2012), but rather than revive that zombie thread, I thought I'd add a few thoughts along those lines with a new one.

When Shallan first glimpses Jasnah's Soulcaster in TWoK Ch. 5, she thinks to herself that it looked just like the "broken" one they'd found in her father's coat pocket, that even after they'd had a jeweler repair it "no longer worked" - it was "damaged on the same disastrous evening that her father had died", implying it was the very coat he was wearing when he died.

That would be the night he was poisoned and then strangled to death by Shallan with her necklace. Seems odd that that would damage a Soulcaster in his coat pocket, doesn't it? It's not like he was stabbed through the coat in a way so as to pierce the fabrial (Balat never came close to stabbing him with his sword), if indeed such an act would be enough to destroy a Soulcaster's function.

It's implied that their house steward, Luesh, was the Ghostblood liaison - he arrived to their household shortly before their burst of fortune, was the actual Soulcaster (the one "trained to use the device"), who (claimed) it no longer functioned after the jeweler "repaired" it, and who "died in his sleep" after Shallan had left to try to steal Jasnah's Soulcaster.

Only after Luesh passed away did "men claiming to be friends of our father" start visiting the Davar household and who knew he was dead, intimidating her brothers by "implying" they knew about the Soulcaster and "suggested strongly" that it be returned to them, where one of the men visibly bore the same symbol tattooed on his hand as found as a pendant on Luesh's body.

On first reading TWoK, the bit about Luesh carrying the GB symbol as a pendant didn't seem particularly signficant, but after two more books, it does. When Mraize "welcomes" Shallan to the Ghostbloods, he notes that "you are required to get a specific tattoo, a symbol of your loyalty. I will send a drawing. You may add it to your person wherever you wish, but must prove it to me when we next meet." A tattoo that the visitor to House Davar bore on the back of his hand, and that Kabsal was found to have "on the inside of his arm".

Shallan hasn't done this yet that we know of, but that's a separate topic; the point is that Luesh having it as a pendant (and not a permanent tattoo) doesn't quite jibe with him being a Ghostblood.

So what pieces of a puzzle can we try to assemble here? Let's line up the known or implied events in chronological order:

  1. After Shallan's mother's death, her father Lin Davar grew increasingly cold, harsh, and violent, with red-gleaming eyes - which a WoB confirms was because he was affected by Odium, and her family influenced by an Unmade during her childhood.
  2. Helaran, the exiled "Nan" (eldest son), returns to House Davar to threaten his father with a Shardblade, demanding justice of him for his slain mother.
  3. Some time after this, Luesh arrives to join House Davar as the steward.
  4. House Davar starts discovering valuable new marble deposits suspiciously easily, when Lin Davar, Luesh, and a surveyor go out looking for them.
  5. Lin Davar boasts that their newfound riches will position him to claim the title of highprince, rejecting Balat's request to marry Eylita as "too lowly", and killing his axehound pups when he defies him.
  6. When he discovers his second wife Malise has been helping Balat with plans to run away with Eylita, Lin Davar kills her and contemptuously repels Balat's ineffective assault, shattering Balat's legs with a fireplace poker in a frenzy, upon which Shallan poisons him with blackbane tea and then strangles him with a necklace that he'd gifted to her.
  7. After Lin Davar is dead, they discover the Soulcaster in an inner pocket of his coat.
  8. They confer with Luesh, the trusted steward, what is to be done...
  9. Luesh admits to being the Soulcaster (person who used the device) in service to Lin Davar, but says it is damaged, and even after a jeweler repairs it (there must have been visibly broken links or gemstone settings), says he cannot get it to work.
  10. Luesh says dangerous people provided the Soulcaster, who will want it back. (Who else would have told them that?)
  11. Luesh is in on the decision to pretend Lin Davar was ill or in seclusion, while Shallan went to try to steal Jasnah's Soulcaster to replace it.
    • As Jasnah points out at the end of TWoK this is a kind of insane idea from the get-go, since Jasnah's Soulcaster (if it had been real) would be a treasure of the royal family of Alethkar, and obviously absconding with it would be an act of war
  12. Shallan departs in her port-to-port pursuit of Jasnah, settling on Kharbranth as a likely destination for her.
  13. Somewhere around this time, in 1172, Helaran appears not just with a Shardblade but also Shardplate, to attempt to kill Amaram.
  14. After Kaladin kills him, when Amaram kills all the other survivors from his squad to steal the Shards, Amaram comments to an unnamed attendant, "why would Thaidakar risk this? But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow bold..."
  15. Luesh dies "in his sleep" soon after Shallan leaves, and a pendant with the Ghostbloods' symbol is found on his body.
  16. Some Ghostbloods start visiting the Davar household, clearly knowing Lin Davar is actually dead, and implying they expect their Soulcaster back "or else".
  17. Kabsal is a Ghostblood posing as an ardent at the Palaneum when Shallan arrives to Kharbranth to petition Jasnah in person.
  18. Kabsal meets Shallan while she is leaving a letter for Jasnah at her alcove in the Palaneum, asking her to reconsider her recent rejection.
  19. Kabsal gets friendly with Shallan over the next few months after she becomes Jasnah's ward, bringing fresh bread and jam to share with her.
  20. Kabsal dies while trying to kill Jasnah with "backbreaker powder" on the bread while providing himself and Shallan with the antidote in the jam.

The Ghostbloods are likely to have known Jasnah was a Surgebinder. Certainly Taravangian having Jasnah Soulcast in his presence (where he could observe how she did it), under the likely pretense of his granddaughter being trapped behind a boulder, implies he, as the head of the Diagram, knew/suspected her nature and wanted to confirm it; so it is very reasonable to think the GBs would have as well, given that Mraize said she had "asssassinated a number of our members" by then.

The Ghostbloods seem to have been able to plan ahead to use Shallan's possible role as Jasnah's ward at Kharbranth to place Kabsal at the Palaneum. The plan to get Jasnah to eat bread dusted with poison flour could not realistically have worked without a Shallan type individual as a kind of "Judas goat", as Jasnah could and did simply refuse to see any ardent: he only got Jasnah to (almost) eat some of the bread by having Shallan beg her to do so, in order to be polite to her friend who had been sharing bread and jam with her for so long.

Assasinating a known Surgebinder presents certain difficulties, number one being their ability to heal with Stormlight. A very deadly and fast-acting poison consumed unexpectedly is not a bad idea.

Yet Kabsal met Shallan in the Palaneum before Jasnah had actually accepted her as a ward, and her being there at all was kind of a crazy act of desperation with Luesh's contribution.

It sure sounds like someone in the Davar household was a liaison to the Ghostbloods through at least the point of Shallan leaving on her crazy, Luesh-inspired, Jasnah-targeting mission. But was it (only) Luesh?

And after she reads the letter in Oathbringer where Mraize tells Shallan that Helaran was an acolyte of the Skybreakers, Pattern says "there are lies in this letter".

My latest theories:

Helaran was not a Skybreaker, but a Ghostblood: Amaram was right.

Mraize told the truth about seducing him "with displays of Shards and power", which sound a lot more Ghostblood-y than Skybreaker-y, doesn't it? Though Shallan's mother and her unnamed friend wanting to kill her own child in Shallan for being "one of THEM" does sound like a Skybreaker acting on a mandate to root out Surgebinders.

Luesh was a Ghostblood wanna-be, kind of like Tyn had been, sent by Heleran so he could keep tabs on what was going on with his family.

They only have Luesh's word that he was the one who had operated the Soulcaster, and that it no longer worked. Perhaps instead, there was another Ghostblood present who was actually operating a Soulcaster, who after Lin Davar's death, instructed Luesh to plant a fake one on him... Then killed Luesh while planting the GB pendant on him while making an escape from the household, or while blending back into the household.

Why get close to Heleran and Lin Davar in the first place? Because of some kind of "influence of Odium" that appears to have settled around him. An Unmade, one we haven't seen in action yet, like Chemoarish, that the Ghostbloods sought to understand or to control, and perhaps encouraging Heleran's "passion" for vengeance against his father helped fix the Unmade's influence in that location.

Per this line of thinking, then, who was The Real Davar Ghostblood (in the household)?

The unnamed, undescribed "surveyor"? Kind of weak.

One of the other Davar brothers, Balat, Wikim, Jushi? - We have Balat POVs, so pretty much not him. Jushi was barely rescued from being sold into debt slavery, that seems very un-Ghostbloody.

Wikim... Hmm? Wikim.... A guys who's kind of like Renarin, if he'd been abused and raised in fear.

I'm not going to go so far as to propose Wikim as the true identity of Thaidakar, but man that would be a mind-blower!

Edited by robardin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

Alex Clarke

Did the Davar Soulcaster ever work?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it did. (Good question.)

Goodreads: Ask the Author Q&A (Aug. 13, 2014)

 

Quote

marcos

As of Words of Radiance, are there two groups of Skybreakers running around claiming to be Skybreakers?

Brandon Sanderson

Nale’s group is the only one I think I’ve had on-screen, so yeah I think there’s only one. Why would you ask that?

marcos

Was the group that Helaran joined the actual Skybreakers?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, I get what you’re saying. Okay. Yes, there is one unified group that call themselves the Skybreakers, good question.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, robardin said:

But, Luesh having a Ghostblood pendant instead of a tattoo is suspicious

We don't know that he had no tattoo he might have had one that we just did not see.

53 minutes ago, robardin said:

Heleran being a Skybreaker with dead Shards never smelled right

I personally don't see why but the WoB above indicates that this is not true anyway.

53 minutes ago, robardin said:

Amaram seemed pretty confident Heleran had been sent by Thaidakar and the GBs

Amaram clearly does not know about the Skybreakers.  Remember he is seeking the Heralds.

54 minutes ago, robardin said:

Pattern said there were lies Mraize's letter saying Heleran was a Skybreaker

Pattern's lie detection is limited.  He might have just been seeing understatements or statements with the intent to manipulate.

55 minutes ago, robardin said:

Heleran was a GB, who recruited him as a member to gain access to the Davar household, where an Unmade was observed.

Sorry WoB says no.

56 minutes ago, robardin said:

Someone else in the Davar household (after Helaran's last appearance there) was a GB plant, in addition to Luesh, who was a BG wanna-be like Tyn acting on orders from a shadow Ghostblood in command.

The father Lin Davar was supposedly a member.  I also do not think that the Ghoostbloods would want an important member exposing themselves so prominently.

57 minutes ago, robardin said:

The "broken Soulcaster" was planted on Lin Davar for later discovery; the actual Soulcasting (which obviously had occurred) was done by another person with another Soulcaster

It seems heavily implied that the sword Balat used broke the soulcaster during the duel.  Remember it sort of clanked and did not do real damamge?

59 minutes ago, robardin said:

And hey. Just who is Thaidakar anyway? Could it be Wikim Davar?! Nbody would be surprised if he could actually read/write on his own, right?

I find it extremely doubtful that Wikim could have ever been powerful enough that Gavilar thought he was the one to assassinate him.  Remember at the time Wikim would have been a teenager.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Balat never came close to stabbing him with his sword),

I addressed this.  Balat was unable to do real damage because the soulcaster got in the way.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Shallan hasn't done this yet that we know of, but that's a separate topic; the point is that Luesh having it as a pendant (and not a permanent tattoo) doesn't quite jibe with him being a Ghostblood.

I actually agree.  This implies at least to me that he has some intern ghoostblood status.  Perhaps they are extorting or blackmailing him(soulcasters are rare) or perhaps he has not yet proven his allegiance.  The pendent could imply that to other members.  Bound to us but not one of us.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Luesh says dangerous people provided the Soulcaster, who will want it back. (Who else would have told them that?)

I think the ghoostbloods did.  He may admitted their father's plans to get the necessary money for bribes but not told them where the soulcaster came from.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Somewhere around this time, in 1172, Helaran appears not just with a Shardblade but also Shardplate, to attempt to kill Amaram.

This has already happened.  During his speech the Lin says he does not have to have Helaran killed because he is already dead on an Alethi battlefield.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

The Ghostbloods are likely to have known Jasnah was a Surgebinder. Certainly Taravangian having Jasnah Soulcast in his presence (where he could observe how she did it), under the likely pretense of his granddaughter being trapped behind a boulder, implies he, as the head of the Diagram, knew/suspected her nature and wanted to confirm it; so it is very reasonable to think the GBs would have as well, given that Mraize said she had "asssassinated a number of our members" by then.

Jasnah employs assassins.  I doubt she kills large numbers of people personally.  Even with her particular skills she does not seem like the type to overestimate herself and as such highers professionals when she needs someone killed.

Quote

Darkness (paraphrased)

Ok. Um… did Taravangian arrange for his granddaughter to be trapped, so he could see Jasnah soulcasting?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Um he used an opportunity, that he could've gotten to through… in a multitude of ways, in order to… check on some things. But it is his granddaughter and she really was in danger.

Darkness (paraphrased)

Yep, he really did seem concerned.

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Supanova 2017 - Sydney (June 16, 2017)
1 hour ago, robardin said:

The Ghostbloods seem to have been able to plan ahead to use Shallan's possible role as Jasnah's ward at Kharbranth to place Kabsal at the Palaneum. The plan to get Jasnah to eat bread dusted with poison flour could not realistically have worked without a Shallan type individual as a kind of "Judas goat", as Jasnah could and did simply refuse to see any ardent: he only got Jasnah to (almost) eat some of the bread by having Shallan beg her to do so, in order to be polite to her friend who had been sharing bread and jam with her for so long.

That could have been Kabsul just taking initiative himself.  Remember the ghoostbloods payed at least two teams of assassins to go after Jasnah.  It might even be standing orders for any ghoostblood who has a shot to take it.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Mraize told the truth about seducing him "with displays of Shards and power", which sound a lot more Ghostblood-y than Skybreaker-y, doesn't it?

Nale showed Szeth his abilities and gave him Nightblood.  It is not like he does not do that kind of thing.

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Wikim... Hmm? Wikim.... A guys who's kind of like Renarin, if he'd been abused and raised in fear.

I'm not going to go so far as to propose Wikim as the true identity of Thaidakar, but man that would be a mind-blower!

And a bit over the top.  When Gavilar was assassinated he would have been really young.  Late teens at most. 

Sorry if this was a bit much but I have a bit of a compulsion to be through. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Karger said:

Amaram clearly does not know about the Skybreakers.  Remember he is seeking the Heralds.

 

The father Lin Davar was supposedly a member.

It seems heavily implied that the sword Balat used broke the soulcaster during the duel.  Remember it sort of clanked and did not do real damage? ... because the soulcaster got in the way.

That could have been Kabsul just taking initiative himself.  Remember the ghoostbloods payed at least two teams of assassins to go after Jasnah.  It might even be standing orders for any ghoostblood who has a shot to take it.

Nale showed Szeth his abilities and gave him Nightblood.  It is not like he does not do that kind of thing.

Ha, I couldn't figure out how to quote/respond point by point, then realized you might have been just quoting and deleting a ton of text with every point, and I was like nah.

First, I'm not really serious about Wikim = Thaidakar, just thought that was funny as a possible conclusion to my line of thinking.

Agree that Amaram didn't know about the Skybreakers at the time of Helaran's attack; however, I still think that GB's seem more like the kind of group that would have and then outfit someone with full a set of dead Shards to go and do something. As soon as I read Mraize's letter to Shallan about Heleran I felt like it was off, on that topic most of all, and Pattern's reaction jibes with my own (perhaps ultimately not for the same reasons, though).

I went back and re-read the scene with Balat and his father, and you're right - that could have been the Soulcaster getting damaged:

Quote

Balat grabbed his sword. Still on one knee, he struck with a lunge. Shallan screamed, and the sword made a strange clang as it barely missed Father, stabbing through his coat and out the back, connecting with something metallic.

It still seems odd that a simple, non-Shardblade sword could break a Soulcaster fabrial, but we don't really know what their construction involves. IIRC Odium says that the Oathgate at Thaylen City can be restored if physically destroyed as long as the gemstones are intact, though a Soulcaster could be a different thing since they require gemstones to work in the first place (that are replaced with each use).

What you describe as sort of a "sleeper cell, use your own initiative" setup on Kabsal's part seems more like how the Diagram operated (with Graves). I have the feeling the Ghostbloods are more tightly organized than that, given how Mraize refers to and defers to a babsk in Iyatil, yet is clearly in command of the others at his table (and feeling like he can guarantee something like saying "you no longer need fear our other members; they have been instructed not to touch you"), and the way they keep giving missions to Shallan and how they communicated and commissioned work to Tyn. The specific means might have been up to him, but the idea of "get at Jasnah through Shallan" couldn't have been something he'd think of without knowing she was coming to Kharbranth at the same time as Jasnah, and it seems unusually specific to prepare a poisoning method relying on a ward or proto-ward for access in that exact location without knowing about it ahead of time.

And I don't think showing Szeth that he himself was a Skybreaker radiant (not just a Herald) was necessarily special recruiting - it could well be SOP for recruiting any new Skybreaker, since anybody else would probably think they were long dead along with the other Orders of KR. Giving him Nightblood, now, that was interesting - I think we'll find out more about that later - though it's hard to argue with Nalan's assessment that "I have never seen anybody more worthy of being a Skybreaker than you", and that Nightblood is the ultimate Skybreaker weapon.

@RShara's WoBs tell me that the Soulcaster in Lin's possession was in fact functional at some point, OK, but I think Brandon is definitely leaving room for Helaran not actually having been a Skybreaker as claimed by Mraize.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the reason the Skybreakers gave Helaran a Shardblade and Shardplate was equal parts test/experiment and precaution. They knew that someone in the Davar household was a proto Radiant or just plain Radiant. If you're not sure, the best way to test if someone is a Radiant is to have them try to bond a dead Shardblade. If they can't do it and mention hearing screaming, they're Radiant. Furthermore, if they haven't bonded a spren but seem like they might attract one, bonding the dead Shardblade and Shardplate would definitely repel any potential spren.

Yes, I know Renarin managed to bond the dead Shardblade and Plate, but anyone who knows what to look for could probably tell that he was having a hard time due to a pre existing bond. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, robardin said:

Agree that Amaram didn't know about the Skybreakers at the time of Helaran's attack; however, I still think that GB's seem more like the kind of group that would have and then outfit someone with full a set of dead Shards to go and do something. As soon as I read Mraize's letter to Shallan about Heleran I felt like it was off, on that topic most of all, and Pattern's reaction jibes with my own (perhaps ultimately not for the same reasons, though).

I don't really see the point of them killing someone like Amaram.  In fact I would say that they are much more likely to keep him around.  Think about the amount of chaos that he causes just by being his almighty damned self.  Also why would they risk a set of shards.  It is not like they have a huge amount of time to acquire them.  Just getting a soulcasater seems to have been difficult.

35 minutes ago, robardin said:

I went back and re-read the scene with Balat and his father, and you're right - that could have been the Soulcaster getting damaged:

Thanks.  This seemed obvious to me while reading but when I went on the shard I discovered that other people had different opinions on the matter.  It is nice to know I am not just seeing things.

30 minutes ago, robardin said:

It still seems odd that a simple, non-Shardblade sword could break a Soulcaster fabrial, but we don't really know what their construction involves. IIRC Odium says that the Oathgate at Thaylen City can be restored if physically destroyed as long as the gemstones are intact, though a Soulcaster could be a different thing since they require gemstones to work in the first place (that are replaced with each use).

Navani seems optimistic in her ability to repair a soulcaster as well.  Really I just think that the Davar siblings did not know what they were doing when they tried to repair it.

32 minutes ago, robardin said:

What you describe as sort of a "sleeper cell, use your own initiative" setup on Kabsal's part seems more like how the Diagram operated (with Graves). 

It is also a very effective setup especially when you can easily relay information through spanreeds.  We don't know or even have reason to believe that Shallan's situation is super unusual for a GB member.  Her first formal "mission" that she is actually ordered to undertake without already being on it is to track down Sja-anat.  This is after she has proved herself.  He also tells her that he will come to her latter with details(and I think this implies resources as well) but she is expected to hunt herself.

38 minutes ago, robardin said:

I have the feeling the Ghostbloods are more tightly organized than that, given how Mraize refers to and defers to a babsk in Iyatil, yet is clearly in command of the others at his table

The diagram is like that as well at the decision making level.  Taravangian makes decisions and people follow them.  He has a second in case something happens to him but at lower levels people like Graves are allowed to do their own thing.

40 minutes ago, robardin said:

The specific means might have been up to him, but the idea of "get at Jasnah through Shallan" couldn't have been something he'd think of without knowing she was coming to Kharbranth at the same time as Jasnah, and it seems unusually specific to prepare a poisoning method relying on a ward or proto-ward for access in that exact location without knowing about it ahead of time.

Shallan was there at the time and was his only valid opening.  Once he had an in with her and once she got a wardship he began preparing.  He then figured out a plan based on his likes and dislikes that could have taken as much as a month to fully prepare.  Remember he had quite some time to work on this one. 

43 minutes ago, robardin said:

's WoBs tell me that the Soulcaster in Lin's possession was in fact functional at some point, OK, but I think Brandon is definitely leaving room for Helaran not actually having been a Skybreaker as claimed by Mraize.

I recognize that she is an unreliable narrator but from Shallan I kind of doubt Helaran would have joined the same group as his father and I seriously doubt he would have joined the ghoostbloods.  I also do not see how the ghoostbloods could have gotten enough blades to risk one on someone like Helaran.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tend to believe that Helaran was not a Skybreaker,  although it's entirely possible that he believed that he was working for them. My reasoning for this is twofold.  One, he never displays any characteristics we associate with the Skybreakers we've met so far, and from what we've been shown of their recruiting methods they don't really fit either. Two, his mission,  killing Amaram,  is all wrong.  Amaram has as far as we know never broken an Alethi law, he was not informed of his crimes by the supposed officer, said officer carried weapons even a secret Radiant would never use and he wasn't deployed with a fellow officer.  None of this fits how a Skybreaker would operate.  The method does however fit either the Diagram or the Ghostbloods. 

Next, remember Shallan was chasing Jasnah from location to location for nearly 6 months. Kabsal has no way of knowing when or even if Jasnah was going to Kabranth, much less if Jasnah would even accept Shallan as a ward. It's much more likely that he saw an opportunity for advancement by taking out an enemy agent on his own initiative and failed. I mean what's the harm? Jasnah already knew they were out to get her.

Three, I think the soulcaster was broken during the fight between Lin and Balat, just as advertised.  I think it's possible that Luesh was an apprentice GB but not a full member,  that he was reporting on Lin, that he had a babsk in close proximity to monitor the situation. Who that would be I have no idea.

Here's how I suspect everything went down.  There's a secret war going on in the background,  multifaceted due to the staggering amount of secret organizations on Roshar, all seeking to gain primacy to achieve their goals.  Shallan's childhood wasn't nearly as idyllic as she remembers,  even before her mother died by her hand. Shallan's mom was either a Skybreaker informant or a member of another organization that abhor Radiants.  Since every organization does what it can to keep eyes on enemy agents it came to the Ghostbloods attention that a spy from another organization died under suspicious circumstances.  They think Helaran is the most likely candidate and recruits him under a false flag once they determine that he wasn't the Radiant.  He seems useful and competent so they keep him in the toolbox but they still don't know how Shallan's mom actually died. Plus anyone monitoring the Davar household and is aware of the signs knows something dark is going on there. Closer investigation is required. They send Luesh to Lin, offering a deal he's in poor condition to refuse. Shallan becomes a person of interest who rises in priority upon her performance on the Shattered Plains,  those notes taken back when the Davar household was under active investigation getting dusted off and used to recruit. This is my headcanon until I get more information. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I tend to believe that Helaran was not a Skybreaker,  although it's entirely possible that he believed that he was working for them. My reasoning for this is twofold.  One, he never displays any characteristics we associate with the Skybreakers we've met so far, and from what we've been shown of their recruiting methods they don't really fit either. Two, his mission,  killing Amaram,  is all wrong.  Amaram has as far as we know never broken an Alethi law, he was not informed of his crimes by the supposed officer, said officer carried weapons even a secret Radiant would never use and he wasn't deployed with a fellow officer.  None of this fits how a Skybreaker would operate.  The method does however fit either the Diagram or the Ghostbloods. 

Next, remember Shallan was chasing Jasnah from location to location for nearly 6 months. Kabsal has no way of knowing when or even if Jasnah was going to Kabranth, much less if Jasnah would even accept Shallan as a ward. It's much more likely that he saw an opportunity for advancement by taking out an enemy agent on his own initiative and failed. I mean what's the harm? Jasnah already knew they were out to get her.

Three, I think the soulcaster was broken during the fight between Lin and Balat, just as advertised.  I think it's possible that Luesh was an apprentice GB but not a full member,  that he was reporting on Lin, that he had a babsk in close proximity to monitor the situation. Who that would be I have no idea.

1) What you summarized is exactly what "smells off" to me about the idea that "Helaran was an acolyte Skybreaker on a mission to kill Amaram with a full set of Shards". None of the motive, the means, nor the execution match what we've seen firsthand about why and how Nalan and the Skybreakers did what they did - plus, the idea that Nalan somehow mistakenly thought Amaram had bonded a spren seems ludicrous, when he seemed able to sense Lift "Investing" from metabolizing food at the Azish palace after draining her with a larkin and removing all sources of Stormlight (spheres) in the area.

The Diagram might try to kill Amaram, yes, and we've seen they do have full Shardbearers in their organization a la Graves, but recruiting a new member and giving him Shards to go on a field mission? I guess this was before they found Szeth and his Oathstone, but still, that seems a bit off - though a more plausible group than the Sykbreakers.

2) Kabsal having no way of knowing Jasnah would be at Kharbranth is exactly why I think he must have been sent information by a Ghostblood in on the Davar plans. It's not explicitly stated in TWoK, but Shallan has been hopping from port to port to gain an audience with Jasnah, and knew that Kharbranth was her next stop - likely the Palanaeum.

The very first time the word "spanreed" is used in TWoK is from a Balat POV that they'd gotten a message via spanreed that Shallan had succeeded, after several months, with "phase one" of the plan, and had been accepted as Jasnah's ward. Shallan has a spanreed herself, and is writing to Eylita later to communicate with her brothers, so it's easy to imagine she'd been keeping her brothers posted that way via spanreed on her progress the whole time: "missed her at Dumdari, but figured out she's going to Kharbranth next and will surprise her there".

I'm sure the GBs would have a backup plan and had an agent (Kabsal or another one) ready to drop into whatever port might have been after Kharbranth, if that encounter had failed. But it feels like too much coincidence for there to have been a Ghostblood agent already in Kharbranth, waiting to execute a Jasnah-specific murder plan that also specifically required getting close to a ward.

3) Yes, the WoB about the Davar Soulcaster definitely having been functional largely kills the "second Soulcaster" theory. But it still leaves room for Luesh having been an "apprentice" GB with a "babsk" in the household or nearby running the operation. His "dying in his sleep" at exactly that time, with the GB pendant found on him only then (they never noticed it around his neck before and asked him about it in all those years?), seems way too much like a setup. Maybe that unnamed surveyor who always went with Luesh and Lin Davar to go "find" the marble deposits was the actual Ghostblood and Soulcaster user.

Edited by robardin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

One, he never displays any characteristics we associate with the Skybreakers we've met so far,

An obsession with justice?  Doing his best for the whole of Roshar at the cost of his family?  Also Hoid met with him and Hoid has both an affinity for potential radiants and a contempt for Ghoostbloods.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Two, his mission,  killing Amaram,  is all wrong.  Amaram has as far as we know never broken an Alethi law

First of all Amaram could technically have broken some law that was on the books.  Their law code is less then 50 years old and apparently the royal codes are a mess.  I can readily believe they could get him on something.  Two he was engaging in warefar.  As such provided you have enlisted legally to fight for the other side you could be considered obligated to kill an enemy soldier.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

said officer carried weapons even a secret Radiant would never use and he wasn't deployed with a fellow officer

It seems likely that the Skybreakers have shardblades to spare unlike anyone else.  This was probably not an officially sanctioned mission and some one else may have been monitoring his progress.

3 minutes ago, robardin said:

I'm sure the GBs would have a backup plan and had an agent (Kabsal or another one) ready to drop into whatever port might have been after Kharbranth, if that encounter had failed. But it feels like too much coincidence for there to have been a Ghostblood agent already in Kharbranth, waiting to execute a Jasnah-specific murder plan that also specifically required getting close to a ward.

The GB have a lot of people.  He might have just been there to monitor the diagram.

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Here's how I suspect everything went down.  There's a secret war going on in the background,  multifaceted due to the staggering amount of secret organizations on Roshar, all seeking to gain primacy to achieve their goals.  Shallan's childhood wasn't nearly as idyllic as she remembers,  even before her mother died by her hand. Shallan's mom was either a Skybreaker informant or a member of another organization that abhor Radiants.  Since every organization does what it can to keep eyes on enemy agents it came to the Ghostbloods attention that a spy from another organization died under suspicious circumstances.  They think Helaran is the most likely candidate and recruits him under a false flag once they determine that he wasn't the Radiant.  He seems useful and competent so they keep him in the toolbox but they still don't know how Shallan's mom actually died. Plus anyone monitoring the Davar household and is aware of the signs knows something dark is going on there. Closer investigation is required. They send Luesh to Lin, offering a deal he's in poor condition to refuse. Shallan becomes a person of interest who rises in priority upon her performance on the Shattered Plains,  those notes taken back when the Davar household was under active investigation getting dusted off and used to recruit. This is my headcanon until I get more information. 

This seems way more likely.

5 minutes ago, robardin said:

I'm sure the GBs would have a backup plan and had an agent (Kabsal or another one) ready to drop into whatever port might have been after Kharbranth, if that encounter had failed. But it feels like too much coincidence for there to have been a Ghostblood agent already in Kharbranth, waiting to execute a Jasnah-specific murder plan that also specifically required getting close to a ward.

The GBs had a lot of backups when trying to kill Jasnah.  Also exactly who was responsible seems to be kind of crazy as both the GB and the diagram claim responsibility.  I seriously doubt that Kabsal could have arranged everything so neatly when trying to get close to Jasnah without a degree of luck. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 hours ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Here's how I suspect everything went down.  There's a secret war going on in the background,  multifaceted due to the staggering amount of secret organizations on Roshar, all seeking to gain primacy to achieve their goals.  Shallan's childhood wasn't nearly as idyllic as she remembers,  even before her mother died by her hand. Shallan's mom was either a Skybreaker informant or a member of another organization that abhor Radiants.  Since every organization does what it can to keep eyes on enemy agents it came to the Ghostbloods attention that a spy from another organization died under suspicious circumstances.  They think Helaran is the most likely candidate and recruits him under a false flag once they determine that he wasn't the Radiant.  He seems useful and competent so they keep him in the toolbox but they still don't know how Shallan's mom actually died. Plus anyone monitoring the Davar household and is aware of the signs knows something dark is going on there. Closer investigation is required. They send Luesh to Lin, offering a deal he's in poor condition to refuse. Shallan becomes a person of interest who rises in priority upon her performance on the Shattered Plains,  those notes taken back when the Davar household was under active investigation getting dusted off and used to recruit. This is my headcanon until I get more information. 

I lik this sketch, except I don't think it's necessary to posit an unknown, non-Skybreaker group that wanted to kill Surgebinders when Shallan was a child. Easier just to say, must have been the Skybreakers... Except, why then didn't they come back to verify the job was completed?

At one point I wondered if her mother had been an Envisioner and was attacking Shallan to "bring out" her Stormlight glowing/Surgebinding powers to prove it to her husband (not realizing that summoning a Shardblade was part of Shallan's portfolio already), but that doesn't fit how Shallan remembers the events. It also wouldn't explain why her "friend" was there that Lin Davar was fighting with to protect her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Amaram could technically have broken some law that was on the books.  Their law code is less then 50 years old and apparently the royal codes are a mess.  I can readily believe they could get him on something.  Two he was engaging in warefar.  As such provided you have enlisted legally to fight for the other side you could be considered obligated to kill an enemy soldier.

It seems likely that the Skybreakers have shardblades to spare unlike anyone else.  This was probably not an officially sanctioned mission and some one else may have been monitoring his progress.

The problem is, when killing anybody - even the targets with newly formed Nahel Bonds - Nalan is always careful to get written authorization for the execution, and tells the target of their crime. He doesn't just show up and stab them from behind. And he expects his follower Skybreakers to do the same: when an acolyte cuts Gawx's throat to follow through on a threat made to Lift, he says that was "poorly done" and would be met with punishment later, because due process had not been followed (even though obviously Gawx was a lawbreaker, being a burglar caught in the act).

So showing up on a battlefield with full Shards - leaving aside the question of if they have "Shards to spare", which I don't understand the justification? - to then silently slaughter a bunch of regular soldiers to get at Amaram, is totally not following this kind of MO.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

Nalan is always careful to get written authorization for the execution, and tells the target of their crime. He doesn't just show up and stab them from behind

When in Azir the legal capital of the world were doing so is probably a must.  We have never seen him operate in alethkar which does not have nearly as good a legal system.

4 minutes ago, robardin said:

So showing up on a battlefield with full Shards - leaving aside the question of if they have "Shards to spare", which I don't understand the justification? - to then silently slaughter a bunch of regular soldiers to get at Amaram, is totally not following this kind of MO.

1.  We are pretty sure this is not an authorized mission.  He is ambitious and trying to prove himself. 2. We don't actually know why anyone here is fighting.  It might be that Sadeas's soldiers are encroaching on lands not belonging to him and as such can be repulsed by force of arms as invaders.  This is the perfect opportunity to get Amaram if you want to and have to follow the law.

Edited by Karger
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Karger said:

When in Azir the legal capital of the world were doing so is probably a must.  We have never seen him operate in alethkar which does not have nearly as good a legal system.

1.  We are pretty sure this is not an authorized mission.  He is ambitious and trying to prove himself. 2. We don't actually know why anyone here is fighting.  It might be that Sadeas's soldiers are encroaching on lands not belonging to him and as such can be repulsed by force of arms as invaders. 

When he goes for Ym he still first researched proof of a crime to justify it. And on the contrary, Alethkar has a well-defined legal system, even if justice can still be perverted - per Dalinar, Roshone was tried and found guilty and could have been held accountable for engineering the false imprisonment of Moash's grandparents, but as king, Elhokar opted to be merciful. And even the very embittered Kaladin expressed anger and shock that Amaram, after confessing in Dalinar's presence to murdering Kaladin's four squadmates to lay false claim to Helaran's Shards, would not be tried and punished for murder.

It's really all stretchwork to come up with unknown reasons why he could have been a Skybreaker as Mraize said, versus simply concluding that Mraize was lying about this for reasons we shall find out later. Why would the Skybreakers try to kill Amaram? Let's guess at something unrevealed... Or, why would the Ghostbloods try to kill Amaram? This we also don't know for sure, except that we do know that they target him that way (Mraize telling Shallan Amaram was his "current prey", and then Iyatil trying to poison dart him with a blowgun).

I mean, giving an "acolyte" something as valuable as a full set of Shards and letting him use them on "unauthorized missions" - does that sound like something the Skybreakers would do? Or even the Diagram? Or either group having "spare Shards" lying around to give to acolytes (when we saw Skybreaker acolytes in training, they were chasing escaped prisoners on foot)? (The answer is NO). I mean yes it's POSSIBLE, it just doesn't fit what we have seen of how they operate thus far.

Versus the more simple explanation that Heleran was given Shards for the purpose of accomplishing a mission unknown to us, that involved killing Amaram, and without regard for the lives of anyone in between. Does that sound like something the Ghostbloods would do, based on what we've seen from them? (The answer is YES.)

Shallan, the only person to have read Mraize's letter (other than Pattern, who said "there are lies in this"), doesn't know anything about the Skybreakers and how they operated. So she has to go on face value (similar to how for some time, she thought Amaram had killed her brother instead of Kaladin, having no reason to doubt his claim to having killed "the unknown Veden Shardbearer" himself). But we, the readers, do.

Edited by robardin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

25 minutes ago, robardin said:

When he goes for Ym he still first researched proof of a crime to justify it

Still not in Alethkar.  That was in Iri a country we know almost nothing about.

26 minutes ago, robardin said:

And on the contrary, Alethkar has a well-defined legal system, even if justice can still be perverted

It has some common law but I would not consider that a well defined legal system.

26 minutes ago, robardin said:

per Dalinar, Roshone was tried and found guilty and could have been held accountable for engineering the false imprisonment of Moash's grandparents

That seems to have been a court of public opinion and a decision by the king not a formal trail.

27 minutes ago, robardin said:

And even the very embittered Kaladin expressed anger and shock that Amaram, after confessing in Dalinar's presence to murdering Kaladin's four squadmates to lay false claim to Helaran's Shards, would not be tried and punished for murder.

That was an obviously heinous crime and even then he gets out of it.  I would not call that an advanced legal system.

29 minutes ago, robardin said:

It's really all stretchwork to come up with unknown reasons why he could have been a Skybreaker as Mraize said, versus simply concluding that Mraize was lying about this for reasons we shall find out later.

Except Shallan has no idea that Skybreakers exist at the time so why tell her about them in the first place?  Why not just say that Heleran was also working for them and thereby gain some trust and sympathy?  Why not blame Jasnah's murder on the diagram?  That puts them basically in the free and clear so far as Shallan is concerned.

32 minutes ago, robardin said:

I mean, giving an "acolyte" something as valuable as a full set of Shards and letting him use them on "unauthorized missions" - does that sound like something the Skybreakers would do?

It might be a necessary thing for them to do when laws do not cooperate.  Remember none of them can use shards at all and to find potential radiants they might need agents in places that only people with the status of shardbearers can get into.

33 minutes ago, robardin said:

Versus the more simple explanation that Heleran was given Shards for the purpose of accomplishing a mission known to him but not to us, that involved killing Amaram, and without regard for the lives of anyone in between. Does that sound like something the Ghostbloods would do, based on what we've seen from them? (The answer is YES.)

Risking shards on an ambitious idiot who may loose them if something happens does not sound like a GB move.  Nor does Hoid's interest in such a person nor does killing Amaram at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

Risking shards on an ambitious idiot who may loose them if something happens does not sound like a GB move.  Nor does Hoid's interest in such a person nor does killing Amaram at all.

But you see, if there is any group who has "extra Shards" it'd be the Ghostbloods - as rare as Shards are on Roshar, the offworld Invested stuff we see casually arrayed in the Ghostbloods Conference Room A are even more rare. And as I just edited to add to my previous post, with the GBs we can't even be sure part or all of their goal (or some kind of a backup plan) in arming Helaran with Shards to attack Amaram wasn't actually achieved.

As of right now I still think the simplest explanation is the most likely. And that is, that Mraize was lying about Helaran being a Skybreaker. Whatever else he was - maybe he wasn't a Ghostblood acolyte - I'm pretty sure that is meant to be an obvious lie to the reader. (While allowing the "there is always another secret" kind of twist where it's such an obvious lie, the lie is that it is a lie? My head hurts now.) So the only question would be, why would Mraize lie about that? (Maybe because letting Shallan know they sent her brother to his death might turn her even more off on them?)

Your comment about "Hoid's interest" in Helaran is an interesting point, though. I always read that scene, where Hoid is "delivering a message" from Helaran to Lin Davar, was his "Fortune-based traveling" putting him in the right place and time to encounter Shallan the way that he did - not that Helaran was the primary plot reason for him being there, despite it being the immediate in-world reason for him being there. But Hoid does go on to tell her where Helaran is: "He is in Alethkar... Because that is where he feels he is needed, of course. If I see him again, I will give him word of you." Implying however it is that Hoid met Helaran, he interacted long enough to gain enough trust from him to be a messenger back to his family in Jah Keved. (Of course, Allomantic brass would help with that, as it seems to have in his talk with Shallan as well...)

Edited by robardin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, robardin said:

But you see, if there is any group who has "extra Shards" it'd be the Ghostbloods

No.  It would be the Skybreakers.  The could have just flown into feaverstone keep and gotten them then since most of them can't use blades stockpiling them makes sense. 

35 minutes ago, robardin said:

as rare as Shards are on Roshar, the offworld Invested stuff we see casually arrayed in the Ghostbloods Conference Room A are even more rare

Cosmere spoilers

Spoiler

Not really.  The sand is just sand from Taldain, the knife is just a silver knife from Threnody.  Both are used by normal people on both planets. An Aether(plenty of soldiers had them) flower petals from Nalthis(commercially available) some Kollos spikes(I think) also not very rare(also probably available comercially).  Most of these would be easy to buy or steal.

45 minutes ago, robardin said:

As of right now I still think the simplest explanation is the most likely. And that is, that Mraize was lying about Helaran being a Skybreaker. Whatever else he was - maybe he wasn't a Ghostblood acolyte - I'm pretty sure that is meant to be an obvious lie to the reader. (While allowing the "there is always another secret" kind of twist where it's such an obvious lie, the lie is that it is a lie? My head hurts now.)

Your simplistic solution seems rather complicated.  I also don't think that the GB are going to do something as stupid as outright lie to Shallan.  The only incentive she has for working with them is the information they can provide for her.  If that information is compromised then it serves her no purpose and she could just ignore them or tell Jasnah.

47 minutes ago, robardin said:

Implying however it is that Hoid met Helaran, he interacted long enough to gain enough trust from him to be a messenger back to his family in Jah Keved. (Of course, Allomantic brass would help with that, as it seems to have in his talk with Shallan as well...)

And we know from WoBs that Hoid thinks very poorly of the GB and he is spending a lot of time around radiants or potential radiants.  In fact he pretty much confines his interaction to them if you think about it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just now, Karger said:

And we know from WoBs that Hoid thinks very poorly of the GB and he is spending a lot of time around radiants or potential radiants.  In fact he pretty much confines his interaction to them if you think about it.

Mostly agreed with other points, but GB are also interested in getting Radiants. Just because he might have been on his way to being a Radiant doesn't mean he couldn't have been GB.

Just now, Karger said:

Cosmere spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Not really.  The sand is just sand from Taldain, the knife is just a silver knife from Threnody.  Both are used by normal people on both planets. An Aether(plenty of soldiers had them) flower petals from Nalthis(commercially available) some Kollos spikes(I think) also not very rare(also probably available comercially).  Most of these would be easy to buy or steal.

 

 Also we don't actually know where the majority of the shards are. Most speculate Shinover, but I'm sure there's some hidden around Roshar in unlikely places.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

 Also we don't actually know where the majority of the shards are. Most speculate Shinover, but I'm sure there's some hidden around Roshar in unlikely places.

Perhaps by the Skybreakers.  We don't even know if the GB were a thing back then.

11 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Mostly agreed with other points, but GB are also interested in getting Radiants. Just because he might have been on his way to being a Radiant doesn't mean he couldn't have been GB.

No but if he was a potential radiant then Skybreakers would be looking in on him.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Helaran was a Ghostblood for long wouldn't he have a tattoo or something with the symbol.

Quote

“… why Thaidakar would risk this?” Amaram was saying, speaking in a soft voice. “But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We’ll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?” “He was Veden, Brightlord,” the stormwarden said. “Nobody I recognize. But I will investigate.”

Amaram had access to the body and still has doubts, i'm assuming he didn't find the tattoo.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What is it that you trust? Your own observations or what the Ghostbloods have written to someone they wish to recruit? I trust my observations.  Two books and a novella showing us the Skybreakers,  their methods and their mission. They all tell me that Helaran does not fit the Skybreakers,  not in temperament nor in the mission he's asked to perform. How is cutting down a bunch of innocents on a battlefield along the way to a target just? Where was his mentor? If Amaram isn't a budding Radiant what would be the Skybreakers beef with him? And do the Skybreakers look like the sort of organization that accepts people who go off half cocked? If I were to pick a Skybreaker in secret,  my choice would have been Redin, not Helaran. 

As to why I think that the Ghostbloods are the most likely candidates to have secured Helaran's services lies in what little clues we've seen of their methods. They've been known to use freelance labor to achieve their goals.  Tyn wasn't a Ghostblood but was trusted to take out an enemy operative. They use powerful tools.  Luesh with the Soulcaster.  Mraize with his Aviar.  They're more likely to both have powerful tools and to put those tools to use. They gather information but will not always let the tools know everything. They're unscrupulous.

As to why they'd lie to Shallan?  Well a couple reasons.  They are already responsible for going up against one of her allies in Jasnah.  Do they really want to tell her that they gave Helaran the Shards and sent him on a mission that got him killed? Besides,  by now they know most everything about her and so knows what lies are safe to tell her. We know the Skybreakers,  Shallan does not, or not yet anyway.  Also, she expects them to lie to her and they'd be foolish not to. They're courting,  not married. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 minutes ago, lccaseiro58 said:

Amaram had access to the body and still has doubts, i'm assuming he didn't find the tattoo.

Good catch!

3 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

What is it that you trust? Your own observations or what the Ghostbloods have written to someone they wish to recruit?

My Observations indicate that the GBs are telling at least part of the truth.

4 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Two books and a novella showing us the Skybreakers,  their methods and their mission. They all tell me that Helaran does not fit the Skybreakers,  not in temperament nor in the mission he's asked to perform

He is not a Skybreaker yet.  Quite possibly for those reasons in particular.  Interestingly on swearing ideal 1 they are cleared of all previous crimes.  It seems like a good idea for any less then 100% legal operations to be carried out by these people.  Also your interpretation of observations are subjective.  We don't actually know much about what Heleran was like personally or what normal Skybreaker requirement is like.  Giving someone a shardblade and having them carry out missions that reinforce their understanding of the law once they have shown a potential for radiance is actually a good idea as it helps insure that you get Skybreakers and not say another Edgedancer that you have to kill.

9 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

How is cutting down a bunch of innocents on a battlefield along the way to a target just?

How is killing a shoemaker?  Killing people on a battlefield is probably legal though.

10 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Where was his mentor?

Do we know if they always travel in pairs?  If so from where? 

11 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

If Amaram isn't a budding Radiant what would be the Skybreakers beef with him

He is trying to find radiants and become one.  Also he wants to cause a desolation.  Also just being Amaram should be a capital offense.

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

And do the Skybreakers look like the sort of organization that accepts people who go off half cocked?

He has not been accepted he is still interning.

13 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

They're more likely to both have powerful tools and to put those tools to use. They gather information but will not always let the tools know everything. They're unscrupulous.

But Heleran is not powerful.  He only got the shards from his employer and that could go to anyone and be used just as easily by almost anyone.

15 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

They are already responsible for going up against one of her allies in Jasnah. 

Taravangian actually claims to have arranged that and he is not lying.

15 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Do they really want to tell her that they gave Helaran the Shards and sent him on a mission that got him killed?

Why not?  She knows how he died by now.

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Shallan does not, or not yet anyway

Yes she does.  They told her about them.

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Also, she expects them to lie to her and they'd be foolish not to

As any good lightweaver knows.  Just telling a bit of the truth is often a much better option then lying.  Outright lying to someone with an eidetic memory is problematic.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Helaran is not powerful.  The shards are. The Soulcaster is. The Aviar is too when it comes down to it.

She knows from an independent source that the Ghostbloods attempted to kill Jasnah,  thought for a while that they succeeded.  The Winds Pleasure plus Tyn's spanreed.

I got that they travel in pairs from Edgedancer, from Lift interlude in WoK. 

And again what exactly would the Skybreakers beef with Amaram be? The only motive I can see is that he's trying to bring the Desolations but he was by no means a leader in the Sons of Honor. Maybe highly placed but not integral to their operations.  If he's not a budding Radiant and he's not committing crimes in his country then Skybreakers have little interest. He wasn't looking for Radiants either, he believed that their powers were mythical.  Otherwise he wouldn't have accepted the position Dalinar tried to appoint him to.

Finally I cannot see the Skybreakers treating a recruit like how Helaran operates.  Giving him Shards and letting him become a vigilante across the countryside is like giving someone who hasn't completed basic training te nuclear codes. They really don't need to test a recruit for temperament that way, they have spren to access character.  Can you see any spren being attracted by anything that cremhole has ever done?

I can accept that Helaran might have thought he worked for the Skybreakers,  he knew as little about them as most people on Roshar.  But I don't see him as actually being one or the Order accepting him on even a contract basis.  And I would not be so quick to believe anything a GB says in any case. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

She knows from an independent source that the Ghostbloods attempted to kill Jasnah,  thought for a while that they succeeded.  The Winds Pleasure plus Tyn's spanreed.

But Taravangian's own thoughts indicate that he was in on and may have helped the assassination.  WoR I-14

17 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

I got that they travel in pairs from Edgedancer, from Lift interlude in WoK. 

That is generally a good idea when hunting someone dangerous.  Cops go with partners but that does not indicate that they must always be accompanied.

18 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The only motive I can see is that he's trying to bring the Desolations but he was by no means a leader in the Sons of Honor

He is a leader.  He seems to be the ranking member on the shattered plains. 

19 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Maybe highly placed but not integral to their operations

He is of the third dahn a confident and personal friend to some of the most powerful people on the planet and a highly experienced general.  He is super important.

20 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

.  If he's not a budding Radiant and he's not committing crimes in his country then Skybreakers have little interest

Other then killing potential Radiants we have no idea what the Skybreakers actually do.  However given that the appearance of bonded individuals is a recent occurrence and the fact that they have been around for over two thousand years I think they do more then just that.

22 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

He wasn't looking for Radiants either, he believed that their powers were mythical.  Otherwise he wouldn't have accepted the position Dalinar tried to appoint him to.

He was looking for Heralds and trying to cause a desolation something that Nale is fighting very hard to prevent.  The Skybreakers have motive and means.

23 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

Finally I cannot see the Skybreakers treating a recruit like how Helaran operates.  Giving him Shards and letting him become a vigilante across the countryside is like giving someone who hasn't completed basic training te nuclear codes

We don't know when he got the shards and that actually might be a good test.  What do they do when given the power to do what they want?  Remember they have dozens of surgebinders at their disposal.  Taking those shards back would be like candy from a baby if he got out of hand.

25 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

But I don't see him as actually being one or the Order

Well he was not.  Mraize agrees and he had a blade. 

25 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

or the Order accepting him on even a contract basis

Why not?  They have good reasons for doing so.

26 minutes ago, Bigmikey357 said:

And I would not be so quick to believe anything a GB says in any case. 

Unless you can prevent on obvious way and reason for a given lie then you don't really have a choice.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So you're saying the Skybreakers gave him a set of shards and told him to kill Amaram with the assumption that they could retrieve the shards if necessary. He then dies and the shards fall into the hands of the man they were trying to kill and they just shrug. "All well. The mission failed and now the target has super weapons but we aren't going to do anything." Even though Amaram is in a backwater countryside where it would be relatively easy to send really surgebinders.

I'm not sure I'm understanding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...