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So, at the end of HoA, Vin Ascends to face Ruin and kills Ati (Ruin's Vessel), dying in the process. Now, when Vin "threw her power" against Ruin they "collided and repelled each other", which resulted in the death of both Vessels. Notably, we know that neither Preservation nor Ruin were Splintered during this process, as Sazed Ascended shortly thereafter. That being said, what (cosmerologically speaking) happened when Vin "threw herself" against Ati? How can you kill a Vessel without Splintering them? Are all Shards opposed in such a way that mere "physical contact" damages their Vessels? 

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I always assumed they were using their power to harm each other, though that doesn't make sense since their near-equal powers should repel each other and prevent harm from coming to their vessels, right?

Though I feel like this also raises the question of what is combat between shards like, since Odium has killed and splintered multiple other Shards, without being hurt or splintered himself.

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24 minutes ago, AKnightInShinyArmor said:

How can you kill a Vessel without Splintering them?

We don't know how splintering actually happens normally so I don't think that this is a question we can answer.  I have always thought that what normally happens is that the vessel is killed first and then the power splintered.  Also Sazed came in and his understanding of both powers may have been what actually fuesed them.

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Splintering is, from what I understand, not an obvious consequence of killing a shard. It takes special effort. Vin probably didn't know how to Splinter ruin, and it's unknown whether she could have done it even if she knew how, since the powers were evenly matched.

Killing the vessel is pretty simple, from what it sounds - take Shardic power, aim at another shard with the Intent of destroying it, keep pushing until either you're dead or they are (or both).

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10 minutes ago, ftl said:

Killing the vessel is pretty simple, from what it sounds - take Shardic power, aim at another shard with the Intent of destroying it, keep pushing until either you're dead or they are (or both).

My thoughts exactly

4 hours ago, DiePie said:

Though I feel like this also raises the question of what is combat between shards like, since Odium has killed and splintered multiple other Shards, without being hurt or splintered himself.

Odium seems to have developed some kind of trick to splinter Shards, but (from what we've seen in Ambition and Honor's case) it takes much more time than what Vin did. He wasn't splintered, obviously, but he definitely was hurt in the past - the Stormfather comments on this (I can't find the exact quote now) and there is this WoB on the whole Broken One status:

Quote

Questioner

Is there any reason why Odium's known as the Broken One? Has he got some part of him ripped off? ...Has he had any Investiture ripped off of him?

Brandon Sanderson

Has he had Investiture ripped off of him? Yes, asterisk.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

5 hours ago, AKnightInShinyArmor said:

How can you kill a Vessel without Splintering them?

I would assume that the situation with killing a Shard is somehow similar to the one when they give up the power voluntarily and according to this WoB it can happen in a number of ways:

Quote

Questioner

Can holders of Shards give them up voluntarily? If so, what would happen?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, a Vessel for a Shard of Adonalsium can give up their power if they wish.

As for what would happen...well, there are some variables in there. Kind of like the variables in what happens to a bucket of water if you dump it out. Depends on where it falls, how strong the wind is, what the air is like.

Power dropped like this, if left alone, could end up Splintering and turning into something like spren/seons. It could become something more like the Stormfather--a large, self-aware entity. It could become something like the Dor or many of the Unmade--something proto-aware, but not truly an individual. There are other possibilities as well, depending on lots of factors. (Are sapient beings involved? what is being done with the power--is it concentrated in the Spiritual Realm as normal, or is it being pushed somewhere else?)

FAQFriday 2017 (June 9, 2017)

In case of Preservation and Ruin, both powers immediately found a suitable vessel - Sazed

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Seems reasonable to me that Odium could simply have found a way to kill the vessels, then blocked/shielded the shards from being picked up until they Splintered - particularly if he had a mortal servant of particularly high power near the site of the dropped shard to act as his servant.

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If I recall correctly, the big thing with Preservation and Ruin is that they were counters for each other. Whenever one took an action, the other could take an equal action to counter that action. Preservation is all about preserving and couldn't attack. Vin having picked up the power recently, and not been subsumed by it, could attack. Her attacking Ati, allowed Ati to attack her with the same amount she attacked him. So if Vin used all her power to kill Ati, Ati could use all his power to kill her. Which is why I believe they both died. 

Edited by Pathfinder
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We are also describing combat here.  Combat can take a lot of forms and the only living experienced combatant at the shardic level seems to be Odium who is not sharing his experiences with the general public. 

Squeamishness alert! 

Vin's defeat of Ruin was probably from a shardic standpoint a lot like just smashing into someone, you do damage but the entire body does not break down immediately.  Khriss described Leras's death as strangulation by Ruin which makes sense.  Ruin focused his attacks on Preservation's mind depriving it until the vessel collapsed.  This is a bit like a person getting brain damage from lack of oxygen.  Their body is actually mostly intact afterward but they are helpless against more damage. 

Honor from what I can tell get Odium in a hold.  Odium struggled unceasingly against it and managed to damage Honor someone at some point.  You can't block every hit every second of ever day forever.  So when the opportunity happened however it happened he smashed Honor breaking large amounts of his internal system.

I think normally when Odium breaks a shard these days he smashes the "comatose" vesseless investiture until it breaks and splinters.

Edited by Karger
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4 hours ago, Karger said:

I think normally when Odium breaks a shard these days he smashes the "comatose" vesseless investiture until it breaks and splinters.

but he still risks hurting himself through this method, which we know odium doesnt like to do.

even though one of the powers doesnt have a vessel, they will still react to one another

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18 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

but he still risks hurting himself through this method, which we know odium doesnt like to do.

Where do we know this from?

18 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

even though one of the powers doesnt have a vessel, they will still react to one another

Yeah but without a mind directing it it should react predictably. 

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9 minutes ago, Karger said:
27 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

but he still risks hurting himself through this method, which we know odium doesnt like to do.

Where do we know this from?

i dont have a source. but if all it took was smashing your power agaisnt theirs. why didnt odium do the same to Aona & Skai.

either because the process to splinter isn't as simple as you pose 

or becuse 2 loose shards might've been too much for him

im going with the former

Edited by Eternal Khol
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18 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

i dont have a source. but if all it took was smashing your power agaisnt theirs. why didnt odium do the same to Aona & Skai.

Those were his two first kills and he did not know what he was doing yet.

19 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

either because the process to splinter isn't as simple as you pose or becuse 2 loose shards might've been too much for him im going with the former

Also he did splinter them it just did not go the way he intended.  They are considered splintered you can check the coppermind page.

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10 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also he did splinter them it just did not go the way he intended.  They are considered splintered you can check the coppermind page.

no matter what, i always end up referring to them as not splintered even though i know they are

 

12 minutes ago, Karger said:

Those were his two first kills and he did not know what he was doing yet.

i dont buy this one though. you think a super powerfull future seeing shard would be capable of knowing what would happen if he slammed his power into another shards.

innate understanding

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51 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

i dont buy this one though. you think a super powerfull future seeing shard would be capable of knowing what would happen if he slammed his power into another shards.

Quote

Argent

...The reason Odium dealt with the Selish Shards in the way that he did, whether that was primarily because he was inexperienced in Splintering and so he knew that he wanted nobody to take the Shards--

Brandon Sanderson

There were better ways he could have done what he did.

Argent

And he then learned at least a little bit better?

Brandon Sanderson

He learned at least a little bit better.

JordanCon 2018 (April 22, 2018)

 

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9 minutes ago, Karger said:

 

im not saying that Odium wasnt inexperienced, becasue he was.

just because Odium didnt know much about splintering shards, it doesnt confirm he killed them in the way you're saying.

I.e. Ramming them with his power

 

Edited by Eternal Khol
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Just now, Eternal Khol said:

just because Odium didnt know much about splintering shards, it doesnt confirm he killed them in the way you're saying.

Of course not it is just my theory on how it works that I believe is self consistent with observed data.

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1 minute ago, Karger said:

Of course not it is just my theory on how it works that I believe is self consistent with observed data.

Of course.

But Im certain holding a shard would grant you the knowledge of what would happen if you touched/attacked another shards mindless power(or at least an inkling)

Vin had just Ascended and she already knew that Ruin/Ati could die.

Why wouldn't a newly Ascended Odium have similar knowledge of how things work.

throwing your power at something is literally the simplest idea, im sure Odium thought of that after he killed Aona/Skai

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1 hour ago, Eternal Khol said:

throwing your power at something is literally the simplest idea, im sure Odium thought of that after he killed Aona/Skai

Maybe you can throw bits of your power kind of like a punch?  Maybe shards have "week points" like nerves? 

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36 minutes ago, Karger said:

Maybe you can throw bits of your power kind of like a punch?  Maybe shards have "week points" like nerves? 

More like Bind points. 

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5 minutes ago, Dancer said:

More like Bind points. 

Something like that yeah.

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