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Kaladin is not racist

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For context, here are some Reddit threads calling Kaladin racist:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/3zy3ot/is_kaladin_racist_prejudiced_neither_or_both/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/72gox8/wor_kaladins_sexual_attraction_towards_lighteyes/

Commentary on Lighteye/Darkeye and White/Black/Brown connection:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/4em7ln/no_spoilers_the_stormlight_series_and_racism/

This thread which in which the OP expresses their frustration:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/7ph41q/worno_spoilers_anyone_else_get_frustrated_with/

Other Stormlight characters have been discussed in this context see this thread which rips into Shallan and justifiably so:

https://www.reddit.com/r/Stormlight_Archive/comments/7icm21/oathbringerob_chapter_15_about_shallan/

 

Kaladin is not racist. I can't believe I even need to say this. Also is it just me or is Reddit seriously messed up?

He had no problem with Renarin. He decided to trust Dalinar even through re-encountering Amaram. He has distrust, which is understandable given everything he had been through from Roshone to Amaram.

I understand that this comes from the chapters where Colot was recruited into Bridge 4 and Tenners, that is Lighteyes from the Tenth Dahn from Kholinar. Kaladin accepts this and moves on. He has no visceral reactions against people based on eye color alone, only distrust.

 

Adolin is going to get better, I think, his attitude towards Kaladin changes in Oathbringer, hopefully the change was permanent. While previously he used to make some problematic statements, calling Kaladin "Bridgeboy", commenting on Darkeyes having authority or Shards after everything Kaladin's done for him. But after the escape from Kholinar he might actually choose to try to listen and understand, like Kaladin did with his Bridge 4.

I'm still miffed at Dalinar for calling equality a problem for another day

No comments on Shallan.

 

Regarding the system of Dahn & Nahn, according to the Coppermind:

1st The King

2nd Highprinces, their direct heirs, and the King's direct heir.

3rd Generals, Highlords, and the non-inheriting children of 1st and 2nd dahn lighteyes.

4th Battalionlords, Citylords, Shardbearers, and other mid-ranked nobles.

5th Companylords, along with lower-ranked nobles.

6th Captainlords, along with the lowest-ranked nobles and landholders.

7th Lower-ranking landless officers, higher-ranking (or very wealthy) landless lighteyes.

8th Soldiers, high-ranking (or moderately wealthy) landless lighteyes.

9th Landless lighteyes with some wealth, like merchants and master craftsmen.

10th "Tenners", essentially any lighteyes who has to work for a living.

Are all ranked above the ten Darkeyes  Nahns, high-ranked Nahn cannot be conscripted if they perform a viral function and high-mid Nahn have the right to travel. Only Darkeyes can be slaves.

Also what Kaladin calls destitution and what Shallan calls destitution

That's messed up: classism, casteism, and racism all rolled into one.

It's better than Mistborn's system of Nobles and Skaa but still... yikes

Edited by Dreamer
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I think there is an old quote from Brandon that states that most people on Roshar are racist in some fashion. This is tricky to discuss, because racism is one of those words that can be tricky to define. Is it the same as being biased for/against someone based on their ethnicity? Is it a specific case of considering one being worth ”less” because of their ethnicity? Is it being against immigration from other cultures?

If we define it as the old fashioned ”some people are worth more than others based on skin/eyes/height/whatever” then no, I wouldnt argue that Kaladin is or has been racist. I dont think Adolin really has been either though, but I might be forgetting something.

If we define it as being biased however, the case is different. Then Kaladin has most defenitely been racist. He has totally been biased against lighteyes. He wasnt positive toward Renarin at first, he was distrustful of everyone with the wrong eyes, wanted Bridge 4 to be a safe zone for ”us” (the Darkeyes) and not let ”them) the Lighteyes in.

It is also worth noting that all Alethi have been totally racist against the Parshmen (Kaladin even acknowledges that his behavior against Rlain was wrong). So in that regard, all non-Parsh characters (and maybe not the odd ones like Hoid, worldhoppers, Heralds or Axies) are/have been racist in the ”more worth than others” sense.

As for Dalinar, I think his statements regarding equality was that he couldn’t do a darkeyes/lighteyes societal reform in the middle of an apocalyptic war against a dark god and his immortal magic monster-soldiers.

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I agree that the system is definitley messed up, but at the same time, Kaladin is also a racist. He says that all lighteyes are bad multiple times, I specifically remember a scene in which he says so and Syl asks him if that is true any Dalinar as well. He bigrudgingly admits that's not true Ankur Dalinar. The fact that he likes Dalinar does not mean that he isn't a racist. Making mass statements like that is not ok, even if it were true about most of them.

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Adolin's a bit contentious and there've been multiple threads on his character, plus the biggest direct quote from Adolin, against Adolin is in the links.

Toaster, interesting view on that, but the power structure between Lighteyes and Darkeyes is skewed enough that I'll be very, very conflicted about calling Kaladin racist.

The Parshendi thing though! It was only upon re-reading OB that I realized that how unreasonable Dalinar was being, over being annoyed with Venli (in the chapter where he brings her to one of his Visions)

Edited by Dreamer
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I think the term "racist" is a little difficult in this case because it has - understandably - a very negative connotation. But there are different "levels" of racism of course. Hitler was racist. That's obvious. Washington and Jefferson were racist. They owned slaves and believed black people to be inferior - but they were at least very uncomfortable about it. Not nearly enough to justify slave ownership of course, but, still, they were rather harmless in comparison to Hitler. And finally there are the Jews in Nazi-Germany. When you are a Jew in the 1930s, you really dislike the Germans of course, for very understandable reasons. Technically that means they are racist - but because that term is very negative, saying "The Jews in Nazi-Germany were racist" is a statement that leaves a really bad taste in your mouth. 

In Kaladin's case, there definitely is a sort of prejudice, but whether it is racist or classist or neither is hard to tell. Generally, the lighteyes subjugate the darkeyes via economic and political means, they occupy all the priviliged and prestigious positions etc. Furthermore, Kaladin's prejudices are confirmed all the time - after all, Dalinar is the only one who appears to have some minimum of tolerance towards darkeyes. I think Kaladin definitely doesn't believe Lighteyes to be inferior in any way - he expects them to be amoral bastards, not to be stupid and inherently bad in any way. It's the old nature-vs-nurture-argument. Kaladin knows Lighteyes are raised with a sense of superiority, that they are accustomed to having power and that is why they act the way they do. His prejudice is a result of his experiences, so I don't think that he believes in an inherent untrustworthiness of Lighteyes since birth. He hates Lighteyes because they - like Laral and Roshone - think they are better than him and his fellow darkeyes. Is the hatred of a community due to an attitude or an ideology that has become the predominant worldview among members of that community synonymous with racism, if said community happens to be united by racial aspects? 

I am once again going to do the Nazi comparison here (the cheapest of all argumentative techniques, I know...). If, say, a Russian or a Polish during WW2 says: "The Germans want to take over Europe, they are evil", then that is - technically - a prejudice. "The Germans" were, after all, a very heterogeneous group, just barely similiar enough to be called "a people". Politically, they had been divided, and there were countless Germans who supported the Nazis due to economical reforms, their good immage, a desire for less conflict in domestic politics, their hard stance against the Versailles treaty et cetera. Almost no one saw the Holocaust or the attempt to conquer Europe coming - they should have, and, when it happened, they mostly went along with it. But there were a lot of Germans who didn't want the war or the mass executions. Saying "Germans want to conquer Europe/slaughter the Slavs and Jews/started the war, and therefore are evil" is wrong, because on an individual level, the majority of Germans were against those things. However, as a community, "the German People" if seen as a united entity, definitely did start the war and went through with the Holocaust. Many individuals in Germany were often against the war as individuals but not to the point where they would have actually shared their doubts or attempt to change things on a societal level. There's a thin, but existing, line between (correctly) saying "the Germans wanted the war" and (incorrectly and possibly racistically) saying: "All Germans wanted the war", just like there's a difference between saying "the Americans voted for Trump" and saying "Every American voted for Trump" or between "Children love clowns" and saying "All children love clowns". I would therefore not say that a dislike of a group, based on experiences, is racist, simply because some individuals are glossed over. Kaladin is prejudiced, but not racist as he, first of all, doesn't think of all lighteyes as inherently bad (see below)

The Lighteyes have their own community. They share morals, values and social conventions that make them an own separate part of the society of Roshar. Even if individual members of the Lighteyes-caste are against the prejudice against darkeyes, the predominant belief of most lighteyes is, that they are superior to them. Kaladin is against the Lighteyes, because this group as a whole is almost unanimously keeping up the caste system and the oppression of the darkeyes. If you asked Dalinar what the perfect society would be like, he might answer that he would abandon the caste system maybe, but currently he sees it as an issue that is just not that important. If you asked them about darkeye-lighteye-equality, some lighteyes, like Dalinar, wouldn't say: "Darkeyes equals? Never!" nor would he say "We have to immediately destroy the caste hierarchy!". Instead their answer would be something like: "I guess it's something that's maybe a bit unfair. Sometime, someone should probably change it a little." The classism and that kind of ignorance from its non-racist members are why the lighteye-community as a whole, if you want to see it as one single entity, is still opressing the darkeyes' equality.

So the lighteyes are a community, united by racial traits, in which there is a dominant belief that they are superior to darkeyes and more worthy of political and economical power; in short, they are racist. They either have, or tolerate, a racist and classist ideology. Racism is defined as a hatred of a person or a group that is not based on their personality, but on their ethnicity. Kaladin does not hate the lighteyes because of their ethnicity, but because of the lighteyes' belief that they are better than darkeyes. That is an ideology that is wide-spread across the lighteyes and, in fact, supported either directly (ew, darkeyes, how gross) or indirectly (now is not the time to discuss equality) by every lighteyes we have ever seen. And ideology and personality are closely intertwined (if somebody tells you he's a nazi, for example, you probably have a pretty good idea of what his personality is like). Therefore you could say that Kaladin indirectly judges Lighteyes by their personality, their attitudes and ignorance in particular - attitudes which are rooted in the lighteye's upbringing and their culture. He is possibly prejudiced when he immediately assumes that every lighteyes he meets shares their caste's sense of superiority - but, once again, so far, he has been almost always correct. Furthermore, while Kaladin says that all lighteyes automatically have that kind of attitude, he is able to recognise that he's wrong. Dalinar, Adolin, Shallan and possibly even Elhokar were able to prove him wrong. Really dedicated racists cannot be proven wrong. A White Supremacist will go on claiming that black people are inherently less intelligent. When you show him a black person with a PhD he will not even say: "Well, I guess there are exceptions" (- which of course still wouldn't be much better). He will instead go on to keep making his claims and ignore all evidence that he's wrong. Kaladin clearly isn't like that.

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It is also worth noting that Kaladin at least initially distrusts anyone who desires or has political power and yet at the same time believes that someone having it is necessary.  I think if he were to go to Azir he would also distrust the "darkeyes" like The Prime for that reason.

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2 hours ago, Dreamer said:

Toaster, interesting view on that, but the power structure between Lighteyes and Darkeyes is skewed enough that I'll be very, very conflicted about calling Kaladin racist.

This is wierd to me. Like this:

I am a swede. If I started to wander around oppressing minorities in Sweden, and call them inferior to me because of the fact that they are originally norwegian or whatever, I’d be a racist. 

But say that Norway attacked and conquered Sweden, and turned us into an oppressed minority, I would still be racist if I wandered around and considered myself better than them just because I’m a swede and they are norwegian. 

Granted, Kaladin doesn’t consider himself worth any more than anyone, so this might be a moot point. Still, I find the claim that oppressed people cant be racist very strange. 

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32 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This is wierd to me. Like this:

I am a swede. If I started to wander around oppressing minorities in Sweden, and call them inferior to me because of the fact that they are originally norwegian or whatever, I’d be a racist. 

But say that Norway attacked and conquered Sweden, and turned us into an oppressed minority, I would still be racist if I wandered around and considered myself better than them just because I’m a swede and they are norwegian. 

Granted, Kaladin doesn’t consider himself worth any more than anyone, so this might be a moot point. Still, I find the claim that oppressed people cant be racist very strange. 

What can I say, definitions are weird in the US, especially politically charged ones (even if said terms should be bipartisan or even better not even a political debate). My understanding, which could be wrong, is somebody at some point some one decided on the following definition for racism: racism is systemic prejudice and/or denial of equal rights and opportunities based on ethnicity. Key word is systemic. According to this definition, someone can only be considered racist if they are a member of the predominant ethnicity in a nation, either numbers-wise or political power-wise. Basically, in the case of America, you only be considered racist if you’re Caucasian. You can be prejudiced based on skin-color if you’re African-American, Hispanic, Asian, or whatever, but you can’t be racist. 

Obviously, this definition is divisive. The democratic part and progressives in general have embraced this definition. Meanwhile, conservatives mostly gone to  the definition that racism is any prejudice based on skin color. I’m not here to say which definition is correct, but as you can imagine, there’s a lot of tension and confusion based on misunderstanding people who use a different definition for racism. Hopefully this brief tangent on the baffling nature of American politics was helpful :D.

Now to actually contribute to the thread. @bxcnch, your breakdown is really good, and I generally agree. As you said, there  are varying degrees of racism. However, I disagree that if someone is open to being wrong about their racist beliefs that they aren’t racist. Yes, the most severe racists hold to their beliefs unwaveringly, even when faced with evidence. But is also easy for someone to be mildly racist. There are plenty of people who don’t think they are racist, but have slightly racist tendencies. And now I have to leave be back to discuss more later.

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35 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

This is wierd to me. Like this:

I am a swede. If I started to wander around oppressing minorities in Sweden, and call them inferior to me because of the fact that they are originally norwegian or whatever, I’d be a racist. 

But say that Norway attacked and conquered Sweden, and turned us into an oppressed minority, I would still be racist if I wandered around and considered myself better than them just because I’m a swede and they are norwegian. 

That comparison doesn't really hold for what racism is in the real world or on Roshar

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7 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

That comparison doesn't really hold for what racism is in the real world or on Roshar

I think that it's close enough. What Toaster seemed to be saying is that an oppressed people can't be racist, and that's just plainly false.

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I'm with @bxcnch on this one

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For some reason my post got posted again. Apologies for that. However, I’ll adress @Dreamers response:

My point was that oppressed people can be racist. If you define racism as purely systemic as @ILuvHats spoke of, then, sure, you cant be racist against your oppressors. I have never kept the word limited to that context though.

Edited by Toaster Retribution
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10 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

I dont think Adolin really has been either though, but I might be forgetting something.

Yes you are: 

Quote

Adolin was all for treating men with respect and honor regardless of eyeshade, but the Almighty had put some men in command and others beneath them. WoR. ch. 35 p.409

Racism implies the inferiority and superiority of one group over another. That superioriy is perceived to be bound to inherited qualities, that are unique to each group i.e. light eyes (etc.?). As it stands Alethi society is built on racism, which Adolin expresses here. 

As for Kal... He`s got some major issues with lighteyes in WoR, which led to him breaking his oaths. To some degree that was understandable given how he suffered under the system. However, I remember reading WoR being appalled at his hatred. 

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Kaladin, "racist"? Nah, of course not.

Racism is the combination of prejudice with power and oppressive systems. It's when from your birth you're treated worse and even enslaved because of your heritage. It's systemic disenfranchisement, where at every turn you find yourself treated as lesser, all life long.

The fight of the slave against their masters is not the same as the oppression of the slaves by their masters.

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@ftl Racism is defined as prejudice, discrimination, and/or antagonism towards someone of a different race based on the belief that your race is better. That fits Kaladin to a T.

And as has been said by someone else, there are different levels of racism. It's entirely possible to have an opinion towards an entire race and think that there are exceptions to those beliefs. Think of how the trope of calling a black person a "credit to their race." Kal considers a handful of lighteyes to be honorable and worthy, but all other lighteyes as scum and that they are worse than darkeyes. Now unfortunately he has had a lot of bad situations in his life that have caused bias confirmation for him, but as evidence by other things we have seen in the books, it is still just a bias. There are plenty, and I mean plenty of lines from Kaladin declaring his belief that lighteyes are worth less than darkeyes.

It's a lie that oppressed people cannot be racist.

Now, with that all said, Kaladin is still a good person. Despite his racism, he still went back to save Dalinar and his men. Racism isn't a binary, it's a spectrum with a whole lot of personal variance to it.

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So, you guys are telling me that you see no difference between slavery or colonialism vs only black people should say the 'n'-word?

Edited by Dreamer
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As a person of color living in the US, I tend to bow out on conversations like these because it's a very emotionally charged subject. That being said, I  personally believe that any group can be racist towards any other group.  Racism can be found to a greater or lesser degree among nearly all people.  However if one belongs to the dominant group then they are both in the position to deny the groups they find lesser opportunities to be better and less effected by the opinions of those not in power.  I can have a negative opinion about Warren Buffett because of his race; it might hurt his feelings.  If he happened to hate black people he has the potential to set my prospects and my family's prospects back for generations. 

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I think we are using the wrong term here. I believe Kaladin is less racist then classist. He doesn't necessarily have a problem with people's eye come so much as their status. This is why he accepts the "tenners" so easily. They are near his same class and so he doesn't have a problem with them. The reason it seems like racism is because he's always saying "light eyes." The thing is, the alethi don't have a term for nobility. This is down in Kaladin and Teft's inability to understand how the horn eaters government works. I think a better analogy for the situation on Roshar would be the nobility and peasants of medieval Europe. Kaladin has a problem with those who are in power, not those with light eyes. The problem is that in Roshar those things entertwine so much that it is hard, even for people on Roshar, to distinguish between the two. Basically, Kaladin hates people in power, but since all the people in power are light eyes, he transfers that anger towards them. Here's another reason why I don't think he's racist. He tries to take Shen in and treat him equally. Now, I know he doesn't always do the best at fulfilling that ideal, but he tries harder then anyone else we see in the book to work with and even treat equally a parshman.

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@ftl, I like what you said there.

As for racism, it's a word with a long history, starting with colonialism. Colonialism was much more than a war of conquest. I'm disinclined to go into a subject that deep and complex for this, but do know that real-life scholars would define racism within this real-world historical context.

Let's move back to Kaladin. He has issues with trusting Lighteyes. He doesn't think he is inherently better than Shallan or Adolin. We have direct extracts proving that the reverse is not true. Kaladin accepts Colot after Skar talks to him, he also accepts the tenners under Azure immediately. He's overcoming his distrust not any sense of moral superiority.

Edited by Dreamer
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Oh the contrary, Kaladin's opinion is similar to marginalized groups irl, and him being on the marginalized side of his society, Kaladin is not racist or classist. He has no structural power to enforce against the people higher than him. If a lighteyes doesn't like Kaladin, they can use the caste system against Kaladin to punish him, especially more than they would be able to against a fellow lighteyes. When Kaladin doesn't like a lighteyes, they punish him. He loses in both scenarios.

Acting as though Kaladin hurting a lighteyed person's feelings is in any way equivalent to a lighteyes also hurting his feelings, disregarding his life, enslaving him, pressing a red hot brand to his face, being on the bridge crews... Kaladin wasn't born or raised with this opinion of lighteyes, either, it wasn't a product of society. Kaladin is prejudiced and getting over it, but it was multiple repeated circumstances of extending his trust and having it thrown in his face that got him there. It stems from actual mistreatment, that he had no recourse against, and mistreatment that was legal and considered the right of the lighteyes who did it. I consider systemic racism the most accurate definition, and some people say racism when they mean prejudice.

The worst thing he can do, if following the rules of the caste system, is hurt someone's feelings, and he could be punished for even that much. Kaladin is not racist. He experiences resentment and anger at a group of people he's repeatedly had abuse and hurt him, personally, people he thought he could trust and believe in. His feelings are entirely legitimate and he's suspicious of the lighteyes he meets, but it hasn't stopped him from realizing that people like the Kholins are still worthwhile, and given his circumstances and life story, the fact that he takes a while to trust them is completely reasonable.

 

 

 

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Thanks Greywatch!

Edited by Dreamer
Thanks not tanks
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You can't be racist against the dominant class of people. That's not what racism is. Racism is what is propagated and perpetuated by the Alethi class system where those with dark eyes are of the lower class and those with light eyes are of the middle to upper class. What @Greywatch said is spot on. If anyone discussed here has experienced racism and classism in the story of Stormlight, I'd argue that experiencing these things has been a major part of Kaladin's character arc. 

Shallan is definitely racist, classist and all of the rest as well. I do not like what she is at this point in the story. She has her own issues, but the way she's dealt with them so far has been by being mean, vindictive and abusive towards the people around her, especially Kaladin. She's a bad person. And by the end of Book 3, she still hasn't quite begun to grapple with the true extent of her issues. 

Edited by Vissy
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I don't know the proper term for it, but bridge!Kaladin is definitely discriminstory against people he considers "high class" or "privileged", something borne out of his trauma. This attitude disappears gradually and fast, but it was there and I'd say it's one of his key development points with Syl.

 

Where I do think Kaladin, and a lot of others, were truly racist was with the parshmen. Even in book 2, when Shen asks him about his freedom he thinks he has enough problems to have to worry about what people will say if a parshmen gets too much freedom. I can't quote from the book but I believe it was something like that. Of course he does give Rlain a spear and treats him as an equal and I think that he's learnt that his "acceptance" of parsh slavery wasn't ok. I think he pitied them back in book 1 too and compared his situation with theirs too, I think that when he was feeling sorry for himself he thought that they had it much worse or something along those lines. His attitude definitely wasn't the worst and he was on the right direction, but there was still the underlying thought that the parshmen weren't at the same level as humans. Like with the other example he grows out of this pretty fast in my opinion.

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1 hour ago, Robot said:

Where I do think Kaladin, and a lot of others, were truly racist was with the parshmen. Even in book 2, when Shen asks him about his freedom he thinks he has enough problems to have to worry about what people will say if a parshmen gets too much freedom. I can't quote from the book but I believe it was something like that. Of course he does give Rlain a spear and treats him as an equal and I think that he's learnt that his "acceptance" of parsh slavery wasn't ok. I think he pitied them back in book 1 too and compared his situation with theirs too, I think that when he was feeling sorry for himself he thought that they had it much worse or something along those lines. His attitude definitely wasn't the worst and he was on the right direction, but there was still the underlying thought that the parshmen weren't at the same level as humans. Like with the other example he grows out of this pretty fast in my opinion.

I don't remember him saying anything like that. Hmm, tbh I think Kaladin did, in fact, forget about Shen/Rlain for a while. It was a complicated situation at first, so it's understandable but in OB it took a lot of in-book time for him to realize he needs to talk to him. But again he came through, the moment it was pointed out.

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5 hours ago, Greywatch said:

Oh the contrary, Kaladin's opinion is similar to marginalized groups irl, and him being on the marginalized side of his society, Kaladin is not racist or classist. He has no structural power to enforce against the people higher than him. If a lighteyes doesn't like Kaladin, they can use the caste system against Kaladin to punish him, especially more than they would be able to against a fellow lighteyes. When Kaladin doesn't like a lighteyes, they punish him. He loses in both scenarios.

Acting as though Kaladin hurting a lighteyed person's feelings is in any way equivalent to a lighteyes also hurting his feelings, disregarding his life, enslaving him, pressing a red hot brand to his face, being on the bridge crews... Kaladin wasn't born or raised with this opinion of lighteyes, either, it wasn't a product of society. Kaladin is prejudiced and getting over it, but it was multiple repeated circumstances of extending his trust and having it thrown in his face that got him there. It stems from actual mistreatment, that he had no recourse against, and mistreatment that was legal and considered the right of the lighteyes who did it. I consider systemic racism the most accurate definition, and some people say racism when they mean prejudice.

The worst thing he can do, if following the rules of the caste system, is hurt someone's feelings, and he could be punished for even that much. Kaladin is not racist. He experiences resentment and anger at a group of people he's repeatedly had abuse and hurt him, personally, people he thought he could trust and believe in. His feelings are entirely legitimate and he's suspicious of the lighteyes he meets, but it hasn't stopped him from realizing that people like the Kholins are still worthwhile, and given his circumstances and life story, the fact that he takes a while to trust them is completely reasonable.

I don’t think anyone claims that WoK Kaladin could harm anyone by being racist against them. Everyone agrees that systematic racism is worse than whatever Kaladin is feeling. But I think limiting racism to the systemic definition is too narrow a definition. If we use the broader one, Kaladin can definitely be racist in some regard. Especially considering that there is one instance where he has some kind of power to exclude lighteyes (Renarin joining Bridge 4) and his first instinct is to do so. Not because Renarin did something against him, or because he is incompetent, but because he is one of ”them”. He is different. 

@Diomedes Thanks for the reminder. Havent reread SA in a while.

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