21 posts in this topic

Hi all, this is my first ever forum post, glad to meet you all!

Intro

As the title suggests I believe that Willshapers are the ones that create shardplate for the Radiants, or at least I believe my theory is pretty solid. I've been thinking alot about the Willshapers lately and Kalak and from the brief descriptions we have, they seem to appear as very finicky tinkerers. So I basically picture Kalak as the Iron Man of the Heralds who designed the shardplates(maybe some 'Honorplate'). There has also been alot of speculation that shardplate is comprised of subspren and  comments from Brandon Sanderson's Q & As and subspren appearing around certain characters(Dalinar, Kaladin & Jasnah) point to this.  I also believe that Bondsmiths might play a part in this process, I get more into that later on.

How I think it works

Since the subspren aren't able to make nahel bonds, therefore only able to manifest in the physical realm for a brief period of time. I think these spren are so drawn to the Radiants and their increasing connection to their sapient cousins, but can't bound because of the laws in place. So Kalak, being the inquisitive airhead decides that if they have shardweapons why not make shardarmor from other spren since Radiants can only have one bond per sapient spren. I imagine that in order to make this happen, the Willshaper will blend their surges together like how Dalinar blended Cohesion and Adhesion to repair the ruins in Thaylen City and somehow bring the spren from Shadesmar  into the Physical Realm and use Cohesion to reshape them into shardplate(perhaps involving some sort of Godmetal, not too sure I'm not all that knowledgeable on that topic). Now where does the Bondsmith come in? Well that's simple, they use Spiritual Adhesion to identity key the Plate to the Radiant. I also think maybe another way to look at it is that perhaps a Bondmsith would open a perpendicularity that might affect the process in a way or something?

Here is further evidence to back my theory(some speculation):

  • Dalinar was capable of using 'Spiritual Adhesion' to communicate with others of different languages.
  • It would lend credence to their Order's name, perhaps how they even got it like Windrunners and Skybreakers are best known for their flight abilities but can do so much more. The radiants takes the subspren(Will) and shape it into the best form for the knight(Shaper)
  • There's been a convenient lack of information on the Order and their Herald and I'm sure we all know our favourite author has a penchant for leaving omitting delicious information for the sake of storytelling. We know Venli is probably on her way to become one and how she interacts with Dalinar's Radiants could be a big thing in the fourth Stormlight book.
  • In Taln's ramblings about the latest Desolation, he talks about training and leading armies, Jezrien teaching men leadership and Kalak teaching them to smith Bronze. Kalak was probably the Herald of Craftsmanship and this translated to his Order as well.

 

Anyways let me know what you guys think, I'm not that knowledgeable on the magic system in Stormlight, so technical and complex but I still love it. Let me know what I got wrong, or missed out. Cheers!!!

Edited by BrightLordSwageas
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I doubt this theory, simply because it seems too complicated, and because it uses the surges in ways we haven't seen were possible. Another thing is, if what you say were true, wouldn't it also work to just use any combination of radiants that have these surges?

How would transportation make a spren manifest in the physical realm?  We haven't seen it used in that way before. Also, it's hard to use investiture on invested things. It would be very hard to shape the plate in the way you suggest.

Another aspect you should consider is the narrative one. The moment we see shardplate will be dramatic and sudden, in order to maximize the payoff. That means a scene alike to Kaladin summoning Syl as a blade for the first time. Having it be a long and meticulous process won't work, because it's not dramatic enough.

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2 hours ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

Since the subspren aren't able to make nahel bonds

You can bond lesser spren. It wont give you a surge or anything but you can do it

Edited by Eternal Khol
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45 minutes ago, Gderu said:

I doubt this theory, simply because it seems too complicated, and because it uses the surges in ways we haven't seen were possible.

We know that opening a perpendicularity is possible with Transportation. Are you referring to another Surge? Also I think being a complicated theory on a complicated magic system is a good thing.

48 minutes ago, Gderu said:

Another thing is, if what you say were true, wouldn't it also work to just use any combination of radiants that have these surges?

Yeah the Elsecallers could for Transportation and Windrunners could for Adhesion but I felt the 'Spiritual' Adhesion is solely a Bondsmith ability. No proof to back that up though, so just speculation from me here. As for why I chose WillShapers over Elsecallers was because even though Orders may share surges, they pursue different things. I also base this on one Taln's rantings about Kalak teaching Smithing for the recent Desolation. Elsecallers are spren-human diplomats and Willshapers are craftsman(I think). Other than that, nothing else to really back it up with.

1 hour ago, Gderu said:

How would transportation make a spren manifest in the physical realm?  

The enter through the perpendiculatiy?(Don't hesitate to let me know if I'm being stupid)

 

1 hour ago, Gderu said:

 Also, it's hard to use investiture on invested things. It would be very hard to shape the plate in the way you suggest.

Not if you have unlimited investiture from Honor's Perpendicularity, I sure that's where a Bondsmith would come in. 

 

1 hour ago, Gderu said:

Another aspect you should consider is the narrative one. The moment we see shardplate will be dramatic and sudden, in order to maximize the payoff. That means a scene alike to Kaladin summoning Syl as a blade for the first time. Having it be a long and meticulous process won't work, because it's not dramatic enough.

I don't understand this point. Dramatic and Sudden can still be achieved by creating and bonding with the plate off-screen and then manifest in a critical moment. It's been done with how Surges work, I don't see why this would be any different.

 

48 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

You can bond lesser spren. It wont give you a surge or anything but you can do it

Rosharan human's can?

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19 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

Rosharan human's can?

I saw a WoB on it. 

Its not a direct confirmation but I take it as a "if someone were smart enough" thing

 

Fantasy Faction

Could any type of spren bond with a person (even if the results wouldn't be a Knight Radiant)? Or only the ones associated with a branch of the Knights?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooh, that's an excellent question. This is something theoretically possible for a lesser spren to achieve.

Fantasy Faction interview (April 24, 2014)

Edited by Eternal Khol
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1 minute ago, Eternal Khol said:

I saw a WoB on it. 

Its not a direct confirmation but I take it as a "if someone were smart enough" thing

 

Fantasy Faction

Could any type of spren bond with a person (even if the results wouldn't be a Knight Radiant)? Or only the ones associated with a branch of the Knights?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooh, that's an excellent question. This is something theoretically possible for a lesser spren to achieve.

Fantasy Faction interview (April 24, 2014)

Ah yes, I understand. But if you look at the statement it seems like it hasn't happened or rather there's no evidence yet. I however am leaning toward the former, so I think we can agree to disagree on this one.

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1 hour ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

Not if you have unlimited investiture from Honor's Perpendicularity

You cant just use the investiture from a perpendicularity, otherwise there would be no perpendicularity

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5 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

You cant just use the investiture from a perpendicularity, otherwise there would be no perpendicularity

Isn't that what Kaladin, Shallan and Jasnah did?

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25 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

Isn't that what Kaladin, Shallan and Jasnah did?

I think they used the excess investiture flowing from the perpendicularity, not necessarily the perpendicularity itself.

Slight difference

I was trying to make a point here, but I forget.

The theory itself probably still holds

Edited by Eternal Khol
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Just now, Eternal Khol said:

I think they used the excess investiture flowing from the perpendicularity, not necessarily the perpendicularity itself.

Slight difference

The theory itself probably still holds

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

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So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the stormfather said that Dalinar making a perpendicularity was a new ability. I believe that since honor is now dead the Spren have more of his power and so can do new and greater things.

Also here's the question. If shardplate can just be made without some of a radiants personal abilities needing to be used, why not make more? What not create a giant store if plate that can be passed from generation to generation and used each time a desolation hits. If the plate isn't locked to only a radiant at a certain oath obtaining it, why not give them to as many soldiers as possible?

I think the name Willshaper comes from there ability to use cohesion. Now, we haven't seen cohesion used yet, but I think it could do some very interesting things. I agree with the idea that Willshapers are tinkers, but I think of that more with the powers. They mess with their abilities so much that they know them innately. This probably leads to incredible shows of power that make it seem like they can shape the very works into what they will. I believe that in one vision Dalinar sees a radiant use cohesion to change rock into a series of steps. This seems to be shaping things with your will.

Edited by Nellac
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Welcome.  Now on to pocking holes(sorry).

On 2/22/2020 at 2:39 PM, BrightLordSwageas said:

Cohesion and Adhesion to repair the ruins in Thaylen City

I am pretty sure that is just a form of bondsmith spiritual adhesion.  No surge blending that I am aware of.

On 2/22/2020 at 2:39 PM, BrightLordSwageas said:

There's been a convenient lack of information on the Order and their Herald and I'm sure we all know our favourite author has a penchant for leaving omitting delicious information for the sake of storytelling. We know Venli is probably on her way to become one and how she interacts with Dalinar's Radiants could be a big thing in the fourth Stormlight book.

The same could be said of the Stonewards or the Dustbringers

Also this WoB

Quote

Questioner

It's very subtle, but at the end of Oathbringer, when Jasnah goes to find Shallan on the battlefield, she goes to grab Shallan, Shallan's over here as Radiant. She has Shards *inaudible*?

Brandon Sanderson

That's a Read and Find Out. I'm being very coy on Shardplate, even though you have seen characters with it in the books before. Because I want to wait until I can do some reveals in viewpoint character.

I will tell you this: You have indeed seen people with Shardplate multiple times in the books. Or at least, the soon aftermath of someone.

FanX 2018 (Sept. 6, 2018)

Shows clearly that we have seen shardpalte and no Willshapers did anything in any of the books we have seen.

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I think it was a good thought, but I believe that they are individual to the Radiant. In OB when Shallan said that she was a "full Radiant" Jasnah was amused and asked her where her Shardplate was, and to me that indicates that it is individual to each Radiant. Plus, it would make sense because it would support the idea that each Shardplate is a unique piece of armor in characteristics and design.

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On 2/24/2020 at 5:17 AM, Nellac said:

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the stormfather said that Dalinar making a perpendicularity was a new ability. I believe that since honor is now dead the Spren have more of his power and so can do new and greater things.

I think your referring to Stormfather's observation of Dalinar resisting Odium rather than creating a perpendicularity. Whether the ability was a fluke or something readily available is still up in the air.

On 2/24/2020 at 5:17 AM, Nellac said:

Also here's the question. If shardplate can just be made without some of a radiants personal abilities needing to be used, why not make more? What not create a giant store if plate that can be passed from generation to generation and used each time a desolation hits.

Well we know plate is Radiant specific and my theory banks on needing the specific radiant to attract their spren and the bond is necessary and not their abilities. So that's also kinda why I don't think transferable plate could be passed down even if they wanted to nor what would the point be, unless the material they make it from is scarce.

On 2/24/2020 at 5:17 AM, Nellac said:

If the plate isn't locked to only a radiant at a certain oath obtaining it, why not give them to as many soldiers as possible?

That was a big eff up on my part, I think I might have to do an amendment and propose a side theory that doesn't include a Bondsmith as I'm a bit more knowledgeable about the lore. 

On 2/24/2020 at 5:17 AM, Nellac said:

I think the name Willshaper comes from there ability to use cohesion. Now, we haven't seen cohesion used yet, but I think it could do some very interesting things. 

If you've watched FMA, it's the part of transmutation that shapes matter. It's a pretty cool ability:

https://powerlisting.fandom.com/wiki/Strong_Force_Generation

On 2/24/2020 at 5:17 AM, Nellac said:

I agree with the idea that Willshapers are tinkers, but I think of that more with the powers. They mess with their abilities so much that they know them innately. This probably leads to incredible shows of power that make it seem like they can shape the very works into what they will. I believe that in one vision Dalinar sees a radiant use cohesion to change rock into a series of steps. This seems to be shaping things with your will.

That's a pretty accurate estimation and I'm possibly overthinking a few things but I feel like there's enough to make this theory work. Plus they're my current favourite order.

On 2/24/2020 at 2:18 PM, Karger said:

Welcome.  Now on to pocking holes(sorry).

Thank You.

On 2/24/2020 at 2:18 PM, Karger said:

I am pretty sure that is just a form of bondsmith spiritual adhesion.  No surge blending that I am aware of.

Your right, I got that confused.

On 2/24/2020 at 2:18 PM, Karger said:

Shows clearly that we have seen shardpalte and no Willshapers did anything in any of the books we have seen.

The quote was very ambiguous and you're possibly correct but could you perhaps elaborate on a scenario where there could be a Surgebinder in plate? The best I can think of are Skybreakers and while you said Willshapers didn't do anything in those books, that doesn't dismiss that they did at all. Not everything that happens in Stormlight is gonna be written. If not some random Willshaper then I think they just get Kalak to make their suits.

As for Shallan, I don't really even wanna touch that tbh. I'm guessing that Lightweavers are one of the exceptions to the "Fourth Ideal = Plate" and when you consider that Shallan is even more inconsistent a character, there's no clear basis for me to form an proper opinion because if it was as clear cut as that, Brandon, wouldn't have done a RAFO.

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Just now, BrightLordSwageas said:

I think your referring to Stormfather's observation of Dalinar resisting Odium rather than creating a perpendicularity. Whether the ability was a fluke or something readily available is still up in the air.

"I was bonded before and this never happened" is pretty clearly a reference to Dalinar's opening of the perpendicularity.

2 minutes ago, BrightLordSwageas said:

The quote was very ambiguous and you're possibly correct but could you perhaps elaborate on a scenario where there could be a Surgebinder in plate?

Jasnah is the obvious one as far as the fandom is concerned.  She seems to have thrown some soldiers and then dismissed her plate.

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13 minutes ago, Karger said:

"I was bonded before and this never happened" is pretty clearly a reference to Dalinar's opening of the perpendicularity.

Fair enough

14 minutes ago, Karger said:

Jasnah is the obvious one as far as the fandom is concerned.  She seems to have thrown some soldiers and then dismissed her plate.

Ah I'm aware of that possibility but I personally believe that that was a new ability from her Transportation Surge. As the surge is of Motion and Realmatic Transition as well as the fact that I can't think of a genuine reason with the information we have that she would dismiss plate in a battle against Voidbringers. I think she's just really close like Kaladin, Dalinar and Shallan are. We can agree to disagree with this one I think.

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I think it would be kind of disappointing if this theory was true. I think it would take away from a character's sense of progress in a way if instead of them gaining the ability to summon their own plate after swearing the fourth ideal, they were just given a set of plate by a random Willshaper, even if the plate is made of spren attracted by the radiant themselves. Also I'm really not sure that the Willshapers would be happy spending so much time making armour for everyone rather than discovering new things. The non-willshaper radiants most likely outnumbered the willshapers by quite a bit and even if not many of those reached the fourth ideal it would probably still have been quite a few people who needed plate right? Well maybe that secinnd point isn't that great, but I stand by the first one. 

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On 4/14/2020 at 10:51 AM, Callsign Radiant said:

I think it would be kind of disappointing if this theory was true. I think it would take away from a character's sense of progress in a way if instead of them gaining the ability to summon their own plate after swearing the fourth ideal, they were just given a set of plate by a random Willshaper, even if the plate is made of spren attracted by the radiant themselves. Also I'm really not sure that the Willshapers would be happy spending so much time making armour for everyone rather than discovering new things. The non-willshaper radiants most likely outnumbered the willshapers by quite a bit and even if not many of those reached the fourth ideal it would probably still have been quite a few people who needed plate right? Well maybe that secinnd point isn't that great, but I stand by the first one. 

A strong part of me doesn't think this theory is accurate cos of stuff surrounding Jasnah. But I committed to it and I understand why a lot people think this detracts from the achievement but I don't see it that way. My theory does include Radiants still being able to summon and dispel armor at will as well as Honor and Cultivation's respective godmetals. I mean, if they didn't have so much attention from Shadesmar, they wouldn't be worthy right?

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Definitely a cool theory! I found the Jasnah passage just for reference, along with a WOB:

0E4EFFFE-AF55-4BA5-90FD-B7AF4BFFB4FD.png

9763B7A2-CC28-4FF1-8926-AD6AB2B1D5EE.png

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On 22/02/2020 at 7:39 PM, BrightLordSwageas said:

the Willshaper will blend their surges together like how Dalinar blended Cohesion and Adhesion to repair the ruins in Thaylen City

Just FYI: Bondsmiths don't have access to Cohesion. That's the Willshapers and Stonewards. 

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On 5/2/2020 at 7:37 AM, joesleepsalot said:

Definitely a cool theory! I found the Jasnah passage just for reference, along with a WOB:

Thanks for the sources

On 5/2/2020 at 4:25 PM, Staenbridge said:

Just FYI: Bondsmiths don't have access to Cohesion. That's the Willshapers and Stonewards. 

Good spot.

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