Questions from my WoR reread

[Nuatoma]

As I sit relaxing at my private spot on my warm ocean reflecting on Words of Radiance, I became troubled about a couple of things I have read.  These things are so troubling they will not let me sleep.  I have some time now, as I have asked my 7th and 8th sons to keep anybody from bothering me.  I am hoping to get some good answers from you airsick lowlanders.

 

First, there is something off about that cremling, Amaram.  Something that I am missing.  I understand that through Words of Radiance, we mostly dislike him due to the atrocities committed against Kaladin.  However, to most other Alethis, he appears very honorable.  Everybody thinks he is very honorable except Kaladin, Jasnah, and Sadeas (it takes a cremling to know a cremling).  But I don't understand his actions.  Throughout WofR, he tries to get Dalinar to reconcile with Sadeas.  Unite to become stronger.  He is a Son of Honor (HAHAHA, very funny this group name) and seeks to return the Heralds to restore the Vorin religion to dominance.  As Dalinar is about to begin his expedition to the center, he is surprised by not only Sebarials arrival, but Aladars as well.  In both cases, Amaram tries to tell Dalinar to send them away; he can conquer the Parshendi by himself and those two shouldn't be trusted.

Why?  Why doesn't Amaram want Dalinar to have more support?  Does he really want Dalinar to perish?  It doesn't seem so.  His internal thoughts seem to regard Dalinar as an important friend and ally.  At the end of the book as he dictates his letter to Restares he thinks of the great cost of losing Dalinar as an ally, but glories in the success of the expedition and that the Heralds will soon return.

It is then revealed at the end of Oathbringer, that Amaram has been in communication with Odium.  I'm a little fuzzy on OB, but I thought it indicated Amaram had been in communication with Odium for a good bit.  So was Amaram's goal ever really about bringing the Heralds back?  Or did he really want Odium in power?  Or did he just pivot and felt Vorinism could be stronger under Odium than it was before the Everstorm?

 

Next question is in regards to important bridgeman, Natam.  In particular, the scene of the first failed assassination attempt against Elhokar.  The one where Moash used Grave's shardblade to cut the railing on the balcony.  At the end of chapter 22, Kaladin is back at Bridge 4 barracks eating stew when Natam stumbles into the camp, flush from running from the palace, to alert Kaladin of the assassination attempt.  Beginning of chapter 23, Kaladin is very tired after running from the camp to the palace.  He is leaning on the door.  He sees all the lighteyes are safe.  He looks around at who else is there.  Some embarrassed and confused Bridge 4 members.  Among them, Natam and Moash.

So question is, how did Natam get back to the palace so fast?  I'm assuming Kaladin ran super fast using stormlight to enhance.  Maybe Natam kept up and when Kaladin saw him he was really on the floor gasping for breath, cramps all over.  Wanting to protect a fellow bridge 4 member, Kaladin kept that out of his thoughts so the readers wouldn't think little of him.  Or maybe Natam is an Elsecaller! And transported there!  Alas, he has Windrunner abilities.  Since he can't be an Elsecaller, he must obviously then just be a dragon in disguise.  Natam has a long face; dragons more than likely have long faces too.  Everybody in the room knows Natam is a dragon, but don't say anything.  They want the readers to be in suspense throughout WofR, and revealing they new about the allied dragon in their midst would deaden the sense of suspense throughout the book.

 

Sorry for some of these bad theories.  But my questions remain.

 

All this writing and thinking has made me hungry.  Where is first son with snack?

[Gilphon]

56 minutes ago, Nuatoma said:

Why?  Why doesn't Amaram want Dalinar to have more support?  Does he really want Dalinar to perish?

I think that what's going on here is that he wants the glory for himself; that he wants to beat the Parshendi without Sebrial or Aladar. Which might've been doable if it hadn't been for the thousands of Stormforms. 

58 minutes ago, Nuatoma said:

So was Amaram's goal ever really about bringing the Heralds back?  Or did he really want Odium in power?  Or did he just pivot and felt Vorinism could be stronger under Odium than it was before the Everstorm?

He appears to have been sincere in his desire to bring back the Heralds. Odium had just been whispered in his ear for a while, (probably by reaching through Nergaoul) in order to influence and manipulate him. And then at some point in OB, Odium started visiting him more openly, and told him about how the Sons of Honor's plan couldn't possibly work; that they couldn't bring back the Heralds because the Heralds had never left; that the Heralds had abandoned humanity. 

Though the fact that we never really see what's going on inside Amaram's head and it's not entirely clear why he decided to join Odium is probably the biggest problem with OB's climax.

 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Nuatoma said:

Why?  Why doesn't Amaram want Dalinar to have more support?  Does he really want Dalinar to perish?  It doesn't seem so.  His internal thoughts seem to regard Dalinar as an important friend and ally.  At the end of the book as he dictates his letter to Restares he thinks of the great cost of losing Dalinar as an ally, but glories in the success of the expedition and that the Heralds will soon return.

I think the main consideration is that one Sebarial does not live up to Amaram's idea of what a highprince should be, and two that he wants to delay things so that the desolation can happen.  Remember Amaram's goal at the time is to cause a desolation while Dalinar is trying to stop one.  If Dalinar's expedition fails then he personally can contact the Parshendi to anticipate and cause the desolation.  As things turn out it happens anyway but Amaram did not know that at the time.

1 hour ago, Nuatoma said:

It is then revealed at the end of Oathbringer, that Amaram has been in communication with Odium.  I'm a little fuzzy on OB, but I thought it indicated Amaram had been in communication with Odium for a good bit.  So was Amaram's goal ever really about bringing the Heralds back?  Or did he really want Odium in power?  Or did he just pivot and felt Vorinism could be stronger under Odium than it was before the Everstorm?

I don't think Odium is referring directly to his conversations with Dalinar.  If you remember Dalinar's PoV Odium says several times "I was with you there" in reference to the all the times Dalinar killed in anger.  Something similar was probably happening with Amaram.  Amaram initially wanted the Heralds back.  It is implied that Odium showed him during the battle where the Heralds were and what they were doing making Amaram feel betrayed.

1 hour ago, Nuatoma said:

So question is, how did Natam get back to the palace so fast?  I'm assuming Kaladin ran super fast using stormlight to enhance.  Maybe Natam kept up and when Kaladin saw him he was really on the floor gasping for breath, cramps all over.  Wanting to protect a fellow bridge 4 member, Kaladin kept that out of his thoughts so the readers wouldn't think little of him.  Or maybe Natam is an Elsecaller! And transported there!  Alas, he has Windrunner abilities.  Since he can't be an Elsecaller, he must obviously then just be a dragon in disguise.  Natam has a long face; dragons more than likely have long faces too.  Everybody in the room knows Natam is a dragon, but don't say anything.  They want the readers to be in suspense throughout WofR, and revealing they new about the allied dragon in their midst would deaden the sense of suspense throughout the book.

It could just be a mistake or their could be a time skip.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Nuatoma said:

First, there is something off about that cremling, Amaram.  Something that I am missing.  I understand that through Words of Radiance, we mostly dislike him due to the atrocities committed against Kaladin.  However, to most other Alethis, he appears very honorable.  Everybody thinks he is very honorable except Kaladin, Jasnah, and Sadeas (it takes a cremling to know a cremling).  But I don't understand his actions.  Throughout WofR, he tries to get Dalinar to reconcile with Sadeas.  Unite to become stronger.  He is a Son of Honor (HAHAHA, very funny this group name) and seeks to return the Heralds to restore the Vorin religion to dominance.  As Dalinar is about to begin his expedition to the center, he is surprised by not only Sebarials arrival, but Aladars as well.  In both cases, Amaram tries to tell Dalinar to send them away; he can conquer the Parshendi by himself and those two shouldn't be trusted.

Why?  Why doesn't Amaram want Dalinar to have more support?  Does he really want Dalinar to perish?  It doesn't seem so.  His internal thoughts seem to regard Dalinar as an important friend and ally.  At the end of the book as he dictates his letter to Restares he thinks of the great cost of losing Dalinar as an ally, but glories in the success of the expedition and that the Heralds will soon return.

It is then revealed at the end of Oathbringer, that Amaram has been in communication with Odium.  I'm a little fuzzy on OB, but I thought it indicated Amaram had been in communication with Odium for a good bit.  So was Amaram's goal ever really about bringing the Heralds back?  Or did he really want Odium in power?  Or did he just pivot and felt Vorinism could be stronger under Odium than it was before the Everstorm?

For myself, a lot of Amaram's actions make more sense when viewed in the below WoB:

 

Coachdorax

Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say, to the worst of the Alethi, gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society, and I needed somebody to represent this. Part of it is, to represent a contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite to Dalinar. In a way, he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks, he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him in later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go. But yeah, he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being.

YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)

 

 

Now I am among some individuals that believe that Amaram has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Some disagree and that is their right. But in the vein of narcissistic personality disorder, Amaram wanted to bring back the heralds. He urged Dalinar to go alone because it would further their glory. Remember for the Alethi nothing is (on the surface) more honorable than the fight. To go to battle and win. The greater the conflict, the greater to overcome, the greater the triumph/honor. He switched to Odium's side when (in my opinion) he felt he could not be seen as honorable on Dalinar's side. 

Quote

Next question is in regards to important bridgeman, Natam.  In particular, the scene of the first failed assassination attempt against Elhokar.  The one where Moash used Grave's shardblade to cut the railing on the balcony.  At the end of chapter 22, Kaladin is back at Bridge 4 barracks eating stew when Natam stumbles into the camp, flush from running from the palace, to alert Kaladin of the assassination attempt.  Beginning of chapter 23, Kaladin is very tired after running from the camp to the palace.  He is leaning on the door.  He sees all the lighteyes are safe.  He looks around at who else is there.  Some embarrassed and confused Bridge 4 members.  Among them, Natam and Moash.

I checked the scene, and Natam wasn't mentioned a second time. It was Leyten there with Moash. Unless I saw the wrong scene. 

edit: still glancing via word search so I could be wrong but I think I see where the confusion came in

 

1. Natam runs to get Kaladin about the King

2. Kaladin ran to check on the King

3. Kaladin sees King is ok, and see Moash and Leyten

4. Later when riding horses, Kaladin talks to Natam about that night

 

So I believe Natam was on guard when the banister happened. Natam ran for Kaladin. Kaladin got back. Moash claimed he had just left and heard the yelling so ran back. Other guards and bridgemen were there but no mentioned of Natam. Kaladin speaks with Natam later

Edited February 21, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Nuatoma]

1 hour ago, Gilphon said:

He appears to have been sincere in his desire to bring back the Heralds. Odium had just been whispered in his ear for a while, (probably by reaching through Nergaoul) in order to influence and manipulate him. And then at some point in OB, Odium started visiting him more openly, and told him about how the Sons of Honor's plan couldn't possibly work; that they couldn't bring back the Heralds because the Heralds had never left; that the Heralds had abandoned humanity. 

Though the fact that we never really see what's going on inside Amaram's head and it's not entirely clear why he decided to join Odium is probably the biggest problem with OB's climax.

 

I suppose this makes sense to me and is probably why I am so confused and unsatisfied.  It just seemed like Amaram was full in on the Sons of Honor thing, which I assumed meant wanting Heralds, which assumed meant contra Odium.  Even though I knew he had no honor, I felt he was really into the Sons of Honor mission.

 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

For myself, a lot of Amaram's actions make more sense when viewed in the below WoB:

 

Coachdorax

Did you write Amaram as an opposite of Dalinar or was he simply a bad guy meant to spur Kaladin?

Brandon Sanderson

I meant Amaram to be the representation of the corrupt side of the Alethi. Meaning they are all talk and very little heart. Very little of what they say, to the worst of the Alethi, gets to who they really are. They would rather be known as someone honorable than be actually honorable. And this I consider a major problem with their society, and I needed somebody to represent this. Part of it is, to represent a contrast to Kaladin’s ideals. This belief that lighteyes were these paragons of virtue. But I also needed somebody, you may say an opposite to Dalinar. In a way, he is an opposite to Dalinar, but more he just represents Alethi society. And I did want it to be that he wasn’t just all the way corrupt. When he makes his decision in Book One in the flashbacks, he is making a decision. There is a moment where he is considering. By the time you are seeing him in later books, that decision has taken him down a path that leaves him very far from any sort of redemption. But it was a choice. And he wasn’t just corrupt from the get go. But yeah, he represents what I feel would be bad about Alethi society. A kind of honor society that is more about looking honorable than being.

YouTube Livestream 2 (Jan. 20, 2020)

Hm, I had listened to this but don't remember this part.  I'll need to find it and listen.  Interesting this is.

Also, new to the whole copying quote things.  Was going to reply to the bit about Natam, but it seems to not want me to quote it again without double posting.

 

Anyways, about Natam, my book must be an old version because it does indeed mention Natam a second time in the scene, not Leyten.  I knew this was probably the obvious answer, that this has been corrected in the books. 

It's a shame though.  I really liked the dragon theory lol.

Edited February 21, 2020 by Nuatoma
Noob

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, Nuatoma said:

Hm, I had listened to this but don't remember this part.  I'll need to find it and listen.  Interesting this is.

No problem. There is a link at the bottom of the WoB that will take you right to the Arcanum Entry that is attached to the audio file for listening. Really happy with what was done with the Arcanum. Makes referencing a breeze.

26 minutes ago, Nuatoma said:

Also, new to the whole copying quote things.  Was going to reply to the bit about Natam, but it seems to not want me to quote it again without double posting.

 

Anyways, about Natam, my book must be an old version because it does indeed mention Natam a second time in the scene, not Leyten.  I knew this was probably the obvious answer, that this has been corrected in the books. 

It's a shame though.  I really liked the dragon theory lol.

No problemo. Just to make sure I have the right scene, is the line this?

 

"Inside the room, a mess of guards, servants, and members of Bridge Four stood around, looking confused or embarressed. Leyten was there - he'd been on duty with the King's Guard - as was Moash."

 

If so, then yeah it sounds like a typo. I was checking my kindle version, which I figure gets updated. I agree it would have been cool. Sorry!

[Nuatoma]

1 minute ago, Pathfinder said:

No problemo. Just to make sure I have the right scene, is the line this?

 

"Inside the room, a mess of guards, servants, and members of Bridge Four stood around, looking confused or embarressed. Leyten was there - he'd been on duty with the King's Guard - as was Moash."

Yep, that's it.  Same thing just Natam in place of Leyten.