216 posts in this topic

7 minutes ago, Staenbridge said:

Oh he got "*all the words*"? :( I'm wounded... 

On the stereotypes, my tongue-in-cheek comment there was that you see so few ace characters that there is barely enough material to produce a cliché. 

You know, amusingly enough I actually thought about how I wanted to approach that one. Unfortunately, I decided to cut a paragraph talking about potential ace but romantic couplings, because I couldn't work out where to fit it in and the comment was reaching absurd lengths anyway. I thought that was the better way around than focusing on ace romantic characters, because Brandon likes to leave a lot of plausible deniability on that front, so it's much easier for me at least to headcanon some of his hetero couples as ace/heteroro (heterorororo), but it's difficult to imagine that Shallan and Adolin are just good friends. 

I'm intrigued though; I'm not exactly active in ace circles, but I have definitely heard an aro person... not quite complaining per se, but not thrilled at ace activists taking the approach of "I still 'like' people, I just don't really care about having sex with them", which they saw as ignoring ace/aro identities to present an 'easier' message. Is this really just a minority view, with most people still thinking ace = ace/aro?

That was because I actually had direct quotes I wanted to use from yours :P 

I agree with there being little content, just not that there’s not enough to have cliches. 

Fair enough. (Heh, I’ve thought that too. Heterororororororororororororororororororororororo...) 

I have encountered more people believing in that stereotype than not (though I haven’t talked about it with many people who already knew what the terms were, without having me explain it to them). Both sides are important: a variety needs to be shown. The spectrum of romantic attraction and asexuality is varied and complicated, just like all sexuality. 

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Posted (edited)

50 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

And so long as people don't realize that they may actually be going too far, too fast, and may end up doing more harm than good, then I need to make this argument.

I get where you’re coming from, but where would you say that this thread has “gone to far”? I just don’t see how pushing for representation is an extreme action, unless I’ve missed something. 

Edited by The Awakened Salad
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51 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

@king of nowhere

It's okay, well not really, you really did hurt me there, hard. But I'm trying to look at this thread with a fresh perspective, a lot of the things you said still aren't okay. *sigh* Some of the things you said in the beginning were nice but then you got angry and defensive and deviated. But maybe you are trying I guess.

I understand the part about associating so much with a movement that anyone who points out a fault within that movement is targeting you. I've had the misfortune of understanding that perspective from both sides.

 

And yeah, we do get butt-hurt fast. I'll try to explain why... when there's a very real possibility that you're looking at an entire lifetime, alone in more ways than one, isolated. There's always an undercurrent of worry when you're with your friends, don't let them know. You get wound up. You try to find a safe space, that isn't always there. Then you find it and other people are there, all of a sudden you have a support structure. Then you start noticing some undercurrents, and everyone starts to look more bad, even the ones who really were looking out for you. Like, yeah, I've decided to treat you like a normal human being, isn't that great? Doesn't that make me a great person? And so the spiral begins.

I hope you understand. Thank you for the apology and sorry that this is the most I can extend as an olive branch.

 

As I said, often conflict is born simply because someone feels attacked and get defensive and it escalates on both sides.

Anyway, I was victim of bullying as a kid, at a time when bullying still wasn't perceived as such a huge social problem, so the teachers didn't do much for me. And I had no friends because I was nerdy and introverted (before it was considered ok). And my parents told me that those people bullying me were douchebags and I should just ignore them. And it worked. i went to high school, met better people, got some friends, was not bullied anymore. I still had few friends, because of the whole nerdy and introverted. and my parents tried to push me to get in various activities to meet people. And it did not work at all. I didn't even know what to say in those situations. i befriended none of the people I met there, though i found some good friends otherwise. Now I am happy.

my life experience strongly affects how I see acceptance. Now I am glad other middle graders bullied me, because if they hadn't I would have been their friend, and ewww, why would i want to be friend with them? and I am strongly skeptic of any organized attempt to find acceptance; my parents kept trying to put me among people, but it wasn't working from my side. I know acceptance of sexual identity is different from what i had to face, but part of the problem is still the same: people are mean to me and won't be my friends. So my instinct would have me very dismissive towards acceptance. my solution would be "dump those douchebags, you don't want to be their friend anyway. and find better friends. but don't bother looking for them too hard, because that won't work; just drift through life and be ready to latch onto other kindred spirits you'll find along the way".

and so, when I see on the news a sit-in by the westboro baptist church, I'm less "this is so wrong and should not happen" and more "thanks for letting me know you are douchebags, so i can avoid you better"

it took me a while to realize that this attitude works on a personal level, but cannot be applied to society as a whole. still, just like my parents trying to push me into social groups was a recipe for disaster, so I think that any attempt to push for acceptance too hard can't work.

 

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12 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

As I said, often conflict is born simply because someone feels attacked and get defensive and it escalates on both sides.

Anyway, I was victim of bullying as a kid, at a time when bullying still wasn't perceived as such a huge social problem, so the teachers didn't do much for me. And I had no friends because I was nerdy and introverted (before it was considered ok). And my parents told me that those people bullying me were douchebags and I should just ignore them. And it worked. i went to high school, met better people, got some friends, was not bullied anymore. I still had few friends, because of the whole nerdy and introverted. and my parents tried to push me to get in various activities to meet people. And it did not work at all. I didn't even know what to say in those situations. i befriended none of the people I met there, though i found some good friends otherwise. Now I am happy.

my life experience strongly affects how I see acceptance. Now I am glad other middle graders bullied me, because if they hadn't I would have been their friend, and ewww, why would i want to be friend with them? and I am strongly skeptic of any organized attempt to find acceptance; my parents kept trying to put me among people, but it wasn't working from my side. I know acceptance of sexual identity is different from what i had to face, but part of the problem is still the same: people are mean to me and won't be my friends. So my instinct would have me very dismissive towards acceptance. my solution would be "dump those douchebags, you don't want to be their friend anyway. and find better friends. but don't bother looking for them too hard, because that won't work; just drift through life and be ready to latch onto other kindred spirits you'll find along the way".

and so, when I see on the news a sit-in by the westboro baptist church, I'm less "this is so wrong and should not happen" and more "thanks for letting me know you are douchebags, so i can avoid you better"

it took me a while to realize that this attitude works on a personal level, but cannot be applied to society as a whole. still, just like my parents trying to push me into social groups was a recipe for disaster, so I think that any attempt to push for acceptance too hard can't work.

Thank you for sharing, which really surprises me because I wouldn't have shared such personal details in these circumstances. But yeah, I had much of the them same experiences but with an added tag which is even more heavier in my part of the world. I hope I didn't push you away from speaking up.

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, The Awakened Salad said:

I get where you’re coming from, but where would you say that this thread has “gone to far”? I just don’t see how pushing for representation is an extreme action, unless I’ve missed something. 

depends on how hard you push. pushing too hard will make people feel threatened. people will start picturing a future where every fiction has a checklist of minorities to insert, and those that don't are blacklisted.

Yes, I know, nobody suggested that. but some posts were forceful, they could have been taken the wrong way.

people are wary of change. they tend to latch on the worst scenario. In this case, the worst scenario is a society censoring works that aren't "representative" enough. And since we're there, we may also start banning them if they go against some political agenda. perhaps it's a bit far-fetched, but it would be not the first time censorship was introduced "to promote correct values".

I was putting me on the defensive, after all, so it could have done the same for other people too.

or it could just encourage sympathetic exhaustion.

 

Edited by king of nowhere
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10 hours ago, Dreamer said:

No one's asking for that?

It kind of seems like some people are. Basically by calling out an author for not having enough non straight characters, you are saying that they should have changed some of them, or at least imagined them differently from the beginning.

It is essentially demanding that the author be creative, but only in a certain way.

A better answer would be for more people with different life experiences to take up writing fantasy and sci-fi. That way, they can create diverse characters organically, rather than just including token characters that they have no insight into.

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50 minutes ago, SwordNimiForPresident said:

It kind of seems like some people are. Basically by calling out an author for not having enough non straight characters, you are saying that they should have changed some of them, or at least imagined them differently from the beginning.

It is essentially demanding that the author be creative, but only in a certain way.

A better answer would be for more people with different life experiences to take up writing fantasy and sci-fi. That way, they can create diverse characters organically, rather than just including token characters that they have no insight into.

Sorry if I gave that impression, I tried to steer clear but I'm only human

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2 minutes ago, Dreamer said:

Sorry if I gave that impression, I tried to steer clear but I'm only human

I didn’t mean you specifically, just the general idea. I can certainly understand wanting more viewpoint characters that you can relate to.

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4 hours ago, Dreamer said:

Thanks for the apology DM. But I'm afraid I still stand by what I said. I can't quite make myself get over the fact that your first and immediate response was a "tone it down bud" without even seeing what it was that made me angry, not even the slightest hint of a benefit of the doubt

I feel the need to clarify that I did not apologize for my statements. I stand by what I said. I did apologize for offense given when not intended.

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Posted (edited)

The only way Sanderson will be able to have a super-major gay character will be to have a society or set of societies where for some reason they need two guys or girls to get pre-arranged married. So either in an unexplored region of a known world, or on a fully unexplored world? {I mean unexplored from the readers' POV.}

Edited by Ripheus23
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Personally I can understand @Dreamer and his desire to read about a protagonist that he can invest in emotionally especially in their love lives and his desire to be able to do that while reading his favourite authors books. 
I don’t think it should be seen as extreme activism or anything. 
LGBT are represented less and on that there is no dispute. And it would make the community feel more included, there is nothing wrong with that. 
 

11 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

The only way Sanderson will be able to have a super-major gay character will be to have a society or set of societies where for some reason they need two guys or girls to get pre-arranged married. So either in an unexplored region of a known world, or on a fully unexplored world? {I mean unexplored from the readers' POV.}

I also disagree with this. It seems to be a very clever way of putting the problem for a much later series. :D
But I think there is a lot of scope in SA as well with characters like Jasnah, lift or Renarin who are going to be main protagonists and whose sexuality has not been defined yet

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Posted (edited)

I think the difficulty would be as follows:

Let's suppose the relevant Major Protagonist has not yet found someone to be in a relationship with. How is Sanderson going to write about their journey to find someone? Because it's not the same process IRL, for that matter. And it will be difficult to avoid contrivance, I suppose. Like, maybe a Shard, or a sufficiently sentient subset of a Shard, feels for the Main Protagonist, so uses Shard-powers to guide them to someone. But why? To be nice to them? So why haven't Honor's remnants helped Kaladin find someone? I mean Sylphrena gets on his case, but she can't do much to really help. But why not at least intervene so Kaladin doesn't get hung up about Shallan, for example (so by intervene, I mean Sooth him, basically, on this score)? Now to be sure, I am squarely in the "Venladin" camp, so I suspect there will be a matter of intersocietal justice and honor that does work out for Kaladin's sake.

As I'm exploring this idea, I wonder, maybe Hoid would be a good both-ways character? There could be a way to have him interested in some other man he's met in his wanderings, maybe.

EDIT: MBE3 would be a good place to anticipate something, too, though. Like having a modern Survivorist situation play out, where a Main Character is discriminated against/harassed by a Survivorist faction, or what. Sandersonian optimism would hopefully prevent a negative outcome in that case.

Edited by Ripheus23
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Y’all can’t convince me Hoid is anything other than pan or possibly omni. :P 

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OMA, what if Rayse and Hoid were more than just friends?!

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6 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

OMA, what if Rayse and Hoid were more than just friends?!

I’ll be honest, I’ve thought of writing that fanfiction 

(Sorry Dreamer, didn’t mean to derail the thread :ph34r:

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Thank you for the support, @The Traveller

Nah, you can ship to your heart's content, @AonEne

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I mean, I don’t ship it now, of course, I just think it’s plausible for it to have happened in the past. 

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1 hour ago, Ripheus23 said:

OMA, what if Rayse and Hoid were more than just friends?!

Thems the facts

Ain't nothing we can do to change that

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 I still don't really jive with or understand the difficulty with writing lgbt characters, and I don't mean without any of the sensitivity reading or research that wouldn't normally go into writing about a group of people that oneself isn't a member of . A while back I read the book The Raven Tower where the main viewpoint character is a trans man, now I myself am not trans so I can not speak to whether the portrayal was accurate to what actual trans men experience, but I have friends who are trans and to my cis eyes it seemed like a well written example of representation . Was the main character being trans really relevant to the plot ? no, but does it need to be ?. I think besides the lack of representation, the nearly complete absence of lgbt characters just pulls me out of the narrative. It's like when I'm watching a movie and the oly women present are the ones "relevant to the plot" it kinda just feels contrived 

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Sorry for continuing the derailment, but I swear if Ati x Leras isn’t canon in Dragonsteel I’m going to break something (but not really because I don’t like breaking stuff). We’ve still got a long time before Dragonsteel releases, right? So Brandon has heaps of time to practice if that’s what he needs to do.

5 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

OMA, what if Rayse and Hoid were more than just friends?!

Ooooh, that’d make things interesting. 

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5 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

OMA, what if Rayse and Hoid were more than just friends?!

nope. they were never friends in the first place. from what we glimps from the letters, they had always been at odds, and they only worked together for necessity.

if you need to ship someone, ati and leras would make far better candidates, as we know ati was good before holding ruin corrupted him. on the other hand, i don't see it fitting much with established events, unless they created scadrial only millennia after taking on the shards, when ati's previous personality was essentially deleted. and in this case, what did they do before?

as far as exhisting characters, brandon could try his hand with either renarin or jasnah. we have no indication whatsoever about renarin, while i see jasnah more as asexual, but she still could turn out in many ways.

i don't think brandon will make renarin gay, though, because he is scheduled to have a book in the second five. So, assuming that brandon is looking forward to try giving more roles to gay characters but he is not sure it will work out, he would not commit to make a gay character that he already promised will be a major one later. he'd rather use a secondary character - one that has about renarin's current importance - that he can still put in the background in case it end up not working.

So, assuming brandon's stance has mutated from that old interview to "i'd like to eventually do it, but i need to work gradually on my way there", his best chance right now would still be to give expanded roles to drehy and ranette.

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Posted (edited)

57 minutes ago, king of nowhere said:

nope. they were never friends in the first place. from what we glimps from the letters, they had always been at odds, and they only worked together for necessity.

I believe there’s actually a WoB that Hoid and Rayse used to be friends. I’ll have a look for it...

Edit: Found it

Quote

Alaxel (Paraphrased)

He asked for "Something juicy about Odium that no one knows about yet."

Brandon Sanderson

Odium and Hoid were once friends.

General Signed Books 2014 (Feb. 15, 2014)
Edited by The Awakened Salad
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In addition to that, a relationship ending badly could certainly lead Hoid to insulting Rayse in a letter to a friend. I could see it going either way. (Also, for Ati and Leras, Vessels’ personalities aren’t instantly deleted? It takes time.) 

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On 4/10/2020 at 4:10 AM, king of nowhere said:

don't think brandon will make renarin gay, though, because he is scheduled to have a book in the second five. So, assuming that brandon is looking forward to try giving more roles to gay characters but he is not sure it will work out, he would not commit to make a gay character that he already promised will be a major one later. he'd rather use a secondary character - one that has about renarin's current importance - that he can still put in the background in case it end up not working.

So, assuming brandon's stance has mutated from that old interview to "i'd like to eventually do it, but i need to work gradually on my way there",

Renarin is book 6 which I don’t see happening anytime in the near future. So he might gradually make his way to write him as a gay character by the Time book 6 comes out

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Posted (edited)

Why would we need more gay protagonists when we have Elend, Kelsier, Raoden and Renarin? The cosmere is filled with gay men. case closed

 

Edit: okay i realise this could be taken very sarcastically, but as someone who has read books, and fantasy, their entire life, Cosmere being ''straight'' isn't as bad as, for example, heavily sexual books being so. This because the cosmere isn't sexual, and very rarely even romantic at that. I rarely think about it, as someone that often looks for representation in media, because thats not what Brandon Sanderson chooses to focus on. It would be like looking for how to cook a hamburger in a book about cupcakes (to me). The representation he has given, is good imo, and I know Brandon Sanderson has mentioned before he has stuggled writing women before too (Because hes not a woman) but has after years of writing them gotten better, and this slow buildup of gay characters is just the start of something I think will be a good book with maybe even a gay lead.

Edited by Discofrish
need to explain myself
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