Gay Male Protagonist

[Frustration]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Wow, I'm just a little in awe at the oversimplification and removal of literally all context up there.

Y'know if people thought like that, a heck of a lot of people wouldn't have rights at all. It's nice to have no idea what that feels like, but it's not nice to continually have to live like that.

You are literally saying no criticism is ever valid.

You are literally complaining about the fact that I'm complaining, then when I explain why I'm complaining, you're saying, okay I see you have reasons to complain but the answer is no, so you should just stop complaining.

If that is indeed what you're doing and that is indeed what you believe in, then I suggest you start practicing what you supposedly believe in and stop complaining about other people's complaining and just accept that they're gonna say no when you try to tell them that they shouldn't complain.

I have no problem with critisism, it's the hypocracy of excpecting other people to do something you aren't willing to do yourself that gets me.

If you are asking accept them saying no, if you are demanding do something when they do.

If you are being oppressed, don't sit there screaming to get what you want without doing anything about it, stand up and take the rights that God gave you.

If you feel like X isn't being represented is such a problem it must be fixed don't sit there screaming for the current authors to do it, you get up and write it.

On the other hand, if it's just something you want, then ask, but accept no as an answer.

 

Now on leaving the thread I'm more than happy to do so, I only posted in the first place to correct misconnceptions about writing, not get into an argument.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Frustration

[Honorless]

On 5/18/2021 at 7:43 PM, Frustration said:

If you are being oppressed, don't sit there screaming to get what you want without doing anything about it, stand up and take the rights that God gave you.

If you feel like X isn't being represented is such a problem it must be fixed don't sit there screaming for the current authors to do it, you get up and write it.

To the first, that's exactly what I'm trying to do. I'm sorry, I know it's a little annoying when people complain regardless of the validity of their complaints but like I have to live in a society. Can't exactly become a hermit. These are things that are still ostracized and not understood. Case in point, you, you literally can't relate and have no reference point for what exactly I'm asking for.

I have already talked about why I think current mainstream authors doing better representation matters in my initial response to your first comment. Also last I checked, Brandon wants to do this better himself.

Edited May 21, 2021 by Honorless

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 5/18/2021 at 0:45 AM, Honorless said:

And that counters which of my points that I've made in the topic? To begin with the point was more acceptance of queer people, less othering, that means more portrayal in mainstream literature & media rather than being relegated to a niche or hyperspecialized subgenre. Being LGBT is not like being an ethnic minority group, they don't have their own communities that they grow up in, they have to realize that they're different and then find/create their own. More accessible representation makes that just a little bit easier.

Another point was that within the bodies of work that do have representation, including the Cosmere, there be something better than tokenism, characters that don't have anything to do with the plot but are just set pieces that are there or invisible representation that apparently exists in the mind of the author but never penned down and minority identities as nothing more than flavour text that don't affect the characters' experiences in-world.

Would you consider "go make your own thing" a good counter-argument to problematic racial, gender or religious representation?

Exactly how are you supposed to make it clear that a character is gay if their sexuality is totally unimportant to the story? This is a genuine question, btw.

When I write I might know X is gay, but if I wouldn’t mention a straight character’s sexuality then why would I bring up a gay one’s? Treating a character differently because they’re gay is literally discrimination... And often it feels very shoehorned to bring it up, because literally the only reason to bring up a character’s sexuality is to point out ‘this character is LGBTQ.’

So how do you do this?

[Honorless]

3 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Exactly how are you supposed to make it clear that a character is gay if their sexuality is totally unimportant to the story? This is a genuine question, btw.

When I write I might know X is gay, but if I wouldn’t mention a straight character’s sexuality then why would I bring up a gay one’s? Treating a character differently because they’re gay is literally discrimination... And often it feels very shoehorned to bring it up, because literally the only reason to bring up a character’s sexuality is to point out ‘this character is LGBTQ.’

So how do you do this?

If they're a PoV, major or even a supporting character, there's no way being gay won't affect their life: their perception of the society, religion, politics, gender will show it. It's not really an unremarkable tag on people either. Like, if you point to a gay person who's out, them being gay is going to be one of the first descriptive characteristics that's going to pop up in people's minds when they're mentioned, so you can just go ahead and say they're gay, this goes for minor characters too. Even if their sexuality doesn't affect the plot, it does affect the character, show that, it's a major part of their identity and how people perceive them. Also, we all know that people look, and because in this case looking might not be considered normal, you can make such an occurrence more noticeable. Don't shy away from showing overt homophobia. Like, it's a thing that happens, writing about it isn't disrespectful and not acknowledging that it exists doesn't make it go away. If it's a fantasy world that's more accepting of LGBT folks, show it. Show some gay couples among the recurring or minor characters, show some trans folks or people who's gender you can't tell, show it in the sexual jokes and innuendo which would become less mocking of non-straight behaviour, show it in the lore or religion.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Honorless

[The Awakened Salad]

5 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Exactly how are you supposed to make it clear that a character is gay if their sexuality is totally unimportant to the story? This is a genuine question, btw.

When I write I might know X is gay, but if I wouldn’t mention a straight character’s sexuality then why would I bring up a gay one’s? Treating a character differently because they’re gay is literally discrimination... And often it feels very shoehorned to bring it up, because literally the only reason to bring up a character’s sexuality is to point out ‘this character is LGBTQ.’

So how do you do this?

If it's not very plot relevant, I'd probably just throw in a line or two about it somewhere, it doesn't necessarily have to be a big deal. Something like Veil's comments about liking girls could work. In my experience, a lot of people default to a character being straight unless there's explicit confirmation otherwise.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

If they're a PoV, major or even a supporting character, there's no way being gay won't affect their life: their perception of the society, religion, politics, gender will show it. It's not really an unremarkable tag on people either. Like, if you point to a gay person who's out, them being gay is going to be one of the first descriptive characteristics that's going to pop up in people's minds when they're mentioned, so you can just go ahead and say they're gay, this goes for minor characters too. Even if their sexuality doesn't affect the plot, it does affect the character, show that, it's a major part of their identity and how people perceive them. Also, we all know that people look, and because in this case looking might not be considered normal, you can make such an occurrence more noticeable. Don't shy away from showing overt homophobia. Like, it's a thing that happens, writing about it isn't disrespectful and not acknowledging that it exists doesn't make it go away. If it's a fantasy world that's more accepting of LGBT folks, show it. Show some gay couples among the recurring or minor characters, show some trans folks or people who's gender you can't tell, show it in the sexual jokes and innuendo which would become less mocking of non-straight behaviour, show it in the lore or religion.

In this case the character was not a PoV, the people who knew didn’t care or consider it important (the POV was her father’s), and she was acting as a highly erratic spy for said father. The thing you’d remember about the character is that she’s a Ton character in Confederation Boston and she really doesn’t want to be there.

Also, in my experience being LGBTQ is the LEAST important part of my identity. It really doesn’t effect me much and it certainly doesn’t play much of a role in my interactions or life. It’s just part of who I am, like having dark hair, but it’s not a big deal or something I dwell on. (Though it does bug me that people always assume I’m straight.) So this is how I usually write my LGBQ characters; it’s part of who they are, but not a big deal. (T characters are a different story.)

24 minutes ago, The Awakened Salad said:

If it's not very plot relevant, I'd probably just throw in a line or two about it somewhere, it doesn't necessarily have to be a big deal. Something like Veil's comments about liking girls could work. In my experience, a lot of people default to a character being straight unless there's explicit confirmation otherwise.

This is kind-of what I ended up doing. Her father asks her if her abigail - who is her lover - is doing alright in the context of a conversation about their family members. Neither one ever actually says that the abigail is her lover though, as it made no sense for them to mention something they both knew and both are used to playing the charade of the woman ‘only’ being an abigail. (The ton was perfectly fine with people being gay... as long as you were discrete. One of the interesting elements of the time.) Then I made the relationship explicit in the footnotes (which are cannon and part of the story).

[Honorless]

2 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

In this case the character was not a PoV, the people who knew didn’t care or consider it important (the POV was her father’s), and she was acting as a highly erratic spy for said father. The thing you’d remember about the character is that she’s a Ton character in Confederation Boston and she really doesn’t want to be there.

Also, in my experience being LGBTQ is the LEAST important part of my identity. It really doesn’t effect me much and it certainly doesn’t play much of a role in my interactions or life. It’s just part of who I am, like having dark hair, but it’s not a big deal or something I dwell on. (Though it does bug me that people always assume I’m straight.) So this is how I usually write my LGBQ characters; it’s part of who they are, but not a big deal. (T characters are a different story.)

This is kind-of what I ended up doing. Her father asks her if her abigail - who is her lover - is doing alright in the context of a conversation about their family members. Neither one ever actually says that the abigail is her lover though, as it made no sense for them to mention something they both knew and both are used to playing the charade of the woman ‘only’ being an abigail. (The ton was perfectly fine with people being gay... as long as you were discrete. One of the interesting elements of the time.) Then I made the relationship explicit in the footnotes (which are cannon and part of the story).

What is the Ton? A publishing house? Oh, you have a published work out? You said "as long as you were discrete": are they still like that or was that a decade ago?

Oh wow, I didn't even know you were LGBT after all this time on the thread, did you mention it? I don't remember, you did mention Jewish... I think the term would be sects and how they handle gay believers

In my experience, being LGBT is very much a big thing, and way beyond a simple case of visibility (which I'd say may not be as big of a deal but still pretty important). Being a gay guy specially and in my part of the world means being specifically targeted by legislature, danger of being physically accosted and the usual "not a real man" spiel that society is ready to drop on any man's head at a moment's notice becoming a guided missile. And even with people who're not like that, it's a "don't ask, don't tell" which I'm very much against because I've no interest in hiding in the woodwork because my existence makes people feel uncomfortable when I haven't done anything to them except exist, which apparently tickles their sensitivities. I'm not interested in pretending to be straight or "normal", I'm not straight or as I'm constantly reminded, "normal". And very often, it feels like I'm not even allowed to be angry about it, because if I am, that colours people's perception of all gay people. It's friggin stressful.

Yeah, I think that works for minor or recurring characters 

[Kingsdaughter613]

56 minutes ago, Honorless said:

What is the Ton? A publishing house? Oh, you have a published work out? You said "as long as you were discrete": are they still like that or was that a decade ago?

Oh wow, I didn't even know you were LGBT after all this time on the thread, did you mention it? I don't remember, you did mention Jewish... I think the term would be sects and how they handle gay believers

In my experience, being LGBT is very much a big thing, and way beyond a simple case of visibility (which I'd say may not be as big of a deal but still pretty important). Being a gay guy specially and in my part of the world means being specifically targeted by legislature, danger of being physically accosted and the usual "not a real man" spiel that society is ready to drop on any man's head at a moment's notice becoming a guided missile. And even with people who're not like that, it's a "don't ask, don't tell" which I'm very much against because I've no interest in hiding in the woodwork because my existence makes people feel uncomfortable when I haven't done anything to them except exist, which apparently tickles their sensitivities. I'm not interested in pretending to be straight or "normal", I'm not straight or as I'm constantly reminded, "normal". And very often, it feels like I'm not even allowed to be angry about it, because if I am, that colours people's perception of all gay people. It's friggin stressful.

Yeah, I think that works for minor or recurring characters 

 Lol! Ton is Regency Era British High Society. Confederation United States was between 1783 and 1787/9. Then we became the Constitutional United States. So considerably more than a decade ago...

It was a historical fanfic, but one that had an original plot, characters, and a LOT of research. The character in question, Robyn, was an original creation. She basically told me “oh, btw, I’m a lesbian and I’m sleeping with my abigail” while I wrote her. And then I had to go back and figure out ‘okay, how do I mention this without it sounding forced?’

Honestly, except for the two main characters most of the characters relationships aren’t dealt with at all because the story was more about the historical events. There’s another character whose wife got mentioned in the epilogue, so then I had to go back and throw in a random mention that he was married. No one else’s relationships really get mentioned because they aren’t important. (Said wife was only relevant because she got Robyn out of babysitting - don’t ask.)

I’m planning to do more with Robyn and her abigail if I ever complete the Regrncy Romance using the same characters. Still not a major character, but she has a bigger role and that story revolves around relationships so it makes sense it would come up.

I am Jewish. And Orthodox. And LGBTQ. And female. And an American. And a New Yorker. And of Middle Eastern descent. And the grandchild of Survivors. And a mom and a wife. And a sister and a daughter. And an artist and a writer. Like I said, it’s only one facet of my identity. It’s important, but it’s hardly the most important thing about me.

No clue if I mentioned this before. I don’t try to appear straight. I just act like myself. But everyone assumes I am straight for whatever reason. I don’t see that it’s most people’s business anyway, and it’s not like I’m going around wearing a sign.

You are normal, btw. Don’t ever let anyone tell you different. And don’t ever tell yourself otherwise.

[king of nowhere]

@HonorlessYou may appreciate to know that, after our unfortunate... heated argument earlier in this thread, I took an interest in the LGBT condition. I couldn't figure out why "being represented" was so important - after all, i don't care about being represented in any way, nor do I feel like I should discuss my sexuality in public - and I got curious enough to pay more attention to the issue. 

Thus I learned how, especially in small backwards communities, lgbt kids struggle with their identity. I am straight, as a child I was told growing up I would eventually like girls, and at some point I started liking girls, all ok; but those kids, they grow up thinking they'll like girls, instead they don't, but they don't realize it at first because their culture doesn't even tell them there are other possibilities; or at most represents those possibilities as a very negative stereotype, so that as they gradually come to develop their sexual orientation they are afraid there's something wrong with them, and/or they are afraid of being discriminated...

speaking of which, I also paid more attention to homophobicity; I assumed it was, at least in the west, a thing of the past, as I come from a progressive social environment. People may occasionally talk politically incorrect, but I've never seen anyone actually discriminated, isolated, or treated differently. When push comes to shove, nobody in my social circles would deny everyone's right to equality, fairness, and freedom. Simply disliking a group of people is not a crime; i mean, if somebody told me he dislikes italians, i wouldn't be offended and i wouldn't call him a horrible person. Depending on his specific beef, I may even agree with him. but I'm going on a tangent here.

Anyway, I also realized that some people, when they tell mean jokes, are not actually joking. And how this also makes for a fertile substrate where actual intolerance can take roots. And how people who are afraid of being discriminated may not be able to tell the difference when they hear an off hand comment. I did not see the problem, I did not even realize there was a problem; I was naive and ignorant. I also did look back at what the media were showing when i was a kid, and it was incredible at how backward some of that stuff was.

I've been basically supporting the "don't ask don't tell" attitude not out of a mildly homophobic "you guys are disgusting, but as long as you hide away we'll tolerate you", but simply out of a privacy approach "unless i intend to date you, i prefer not to know about your sexuality. It's a private matter, and it should not be discussed publicly". But even in its positive acception, this phylosophy leaves those confused kids alone at a time when they'd really need to know there are others like them.

So, I now understand why it's important for the lgbt community that they come out, that they are known, that they are widely represented across the media. I'm actually pessimistic about this stopping homophobia; after all, black people are visible everywhere, some even occupy important positions in the government, and yet there's still plenty of racism around, don't see why with lgbt it should be different. But it is fair, and it will definitely help those kids.

I wanted you to know that with your effort you actually touched and moved someone. And that though we started with the wrong foot, you eventually won a supporter.

P.S. I am still ambivalent on inclusion in the media. On one hand, I fully agree that it would be good to have more representation. On the other hand, forcing creators to be more inclusive - even indirectly, by shaming them on social media or by prejudicially rejecting work for not being inclusing enough - is the antechamber of censorship. Even worse, if you try to force people to like you, it never works. Just like I reacted poorly to a forceful attempt, while I reacted well to a slow trickle of information through the internet. So, the trick is to get more lgbt representation in the media, without giving the impression of being forceful.

well, good luck with that

P.P.S. On "normal" and "different", there's no reason normal should be good, in fact it is often the opposite. In italy, calling someone an "average italian" is a strong insult, as we built this stereotype of the "average italian" who encompasses all the worst attributes associated with italians, and none of the good ones. So, no need to be "normal"

EDIT:

6 hours ago, Honorless said:

In my experience, being LGBT is very much a big thing, and way beyond a simple case of visibility (which I'd say may not be as big of a deal but still pretty important). Being a gay guy specially and in my part of the world means being specifically targeted by legislature, danger of being physically accosted and the usual "not a real man" spiel that society is ready to drop on any man's head at a moment's notice becoming a guided missile. And even with people who're not like that, it's a "don't ask, don't tell" which I'm very much against because I've no interest in hiding in the woodwork because my existence makes people feel uncomfortable when I haven't done anything to them except exist, which apparently tickles their sensitivities. I'm not interested in pretending to be straight or "normal", I'm not straight or as I'm constantly reminded, "normal". And very often, it feels like I'm not even allowed to be angry about it, because if I am, that colours people's perception of all gay people. It's friggin stressful.

Yeah, I think that works for minor or recurring characters 

Huh. I just read this, and I feel like I contributed to it. Also, I had no idea you actually came from some part of the world where you are actually discriminated by law. that sucks.

All I can say in my defence is that I've actually had to deal with some people belonging with minorities actually trying to milk their status as specially protected to get away with stuff. The worst case involved my brother's ex wife beating my brother (a very nice men who's always ready to help anyone in need) and trying to frame him as the aggressor by playing the part of the woman victim of violence. it didn't work, but my brother had a hard time going to trial for divorce, even though he never lifted a finger against her and she sent him to the doctor several times. So, I'm probably overly sensitive when i see a minority asking for what looks like "special treatment", but my life experience gave me plenty of reasons to be.

Unfortunately, that sensitivity can sometimes be triggered by people who actually had good causes for their requests

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by king of nowhere

[+mdross81]

I’ve been tempted to chime in on this thread many times, but have so far held off. But I did want to thank @Honorless for such a thoughtful post and replies. And I wanted to applaud @king of nowhere for being open and making an effort to understand some of the issues faced by the lgbt community.

Not to make light of it, but I kinda feel like there ought to be air horns and party music playing because ... you guys ... one person helped change another person’s mind by commenting on the internet!

I think you both get to put that on your resume now for being a part of it.

More substantively, I’d love to see Brandon make use of the possibility he’s set up with Shallan to explore a bi character who is in a hetero marriage. Given some of his comments about Veil being the only way Shallan might have been comfortable expressing that part of her, I’m guessing not, but it’d be nice for us married bi folks.

[Kingsdaughter613]

49 minutes ago, mdross81 said:

I’ve been tempted to chime in on this thread many times, but have so far held off. But I did want to thank @Honorless for such a thoughtful post and replies. And I wanted to applaud @king of nowhere for being open and making an effort to understand some of the issues faced by the lgbt community.

Not to make light of it, but I kinda feel like there ought to be air horns and party music playing because ... you guys ... one person helped change another person’s mind by commenting on the internet!

I think you both get to put that on your resume now for being a part of it.

More substantively, I’d love to see Brandon make use of the possibility he’s set up with Shallan to explore a bi character who is in a hetero marriage. Given some of his comments about Veil being the only way Shallan might have been comfortable expressing that part of her, I’m guessing not, but it’d be nice for us married bi folks.

Shallan integrated Veil, so she may be more comfortable doing so now as they are no longer ‘Shallan’ or ‘Veil’, but someone who encompasses them both.

[Honorless]

@king of nowhere, don't sweat it. I didn't stop arguing with you just to simmer the topic down, but because I looked through all your replies again and your prev LGBT topic and realized this was simply unfamiliar ground for you.

As for special treatment and male victims of violence, yeah, I think I told you I picked up on that, and that I agreed with you on that. The older folks tell you to man up and the younger folks tell you that your victimhood threatens other victims on the basis of your gender. And then your story is nothing but fuel for politics and absolutely no one to support you. A lot of legislature goes out of its way to frame only one group as the aggressor and one as the victim and ties the whole thing together as the only possible narrative, societal attitudes are complicit in that. I get how that came to be, I do, but that doesn't stop it from being messed up.

@Kingsdaughter613, thank you, the sentiment is appreciated but I'm not entirely sure seeing myself as normal is the right or practical thing to do. I'm not and I'm going to have to be okay with that, I can't pretend everything's fine.

@mdross81 appreciate it. Oh, I'll miss Veil. 

[Kingsdaughter613]

14 minutes ago, Honorless said:

@king of nowhere, don't sweat it. I didn't stop arguing with you just to simmer the topic down, but because I looked through all your replies again and your prev LGBT topic and realized this was simply unfamiliar ground for you.

As for special treatment and male victims of violence, yeah, I think I told you I picked up on that, and that I agreed with you on that. The older folks tell you to man up and the younger folks tell you that your victimhood threatens other victims on the basis of your gender. And then your story is nothing but fuel for politics and absolutely no one to support you. A lot of legislature goes out of its way to frame only one group as the aggressor and one as the victim and ties the whole thing together as the only possible narrative, societal attitudes are complicit in that. I get how that came to be, I do, but that doesn't stop it from being messed up.

@Kingsdaughter613, thank you, the sentiment is appreciated but I'm not entirely sure seeing myself as normal is the right or practical thing to do. I'm not and I'm going to have to be okay with that, I can't pretend everything's fine.

@mdross81 appreciate it. Oh, I'll miss Veil. 

I meant more that you shouldn’t see yourself as wrong. You should embrace what you are, who you are, all elements of your self. You’re different, but that difference is what makes you you. Own it. Be proud of it. Be proud of the person you are, the man you have grown to be.

We’re all different, each in our own way. In that sense we are, all of us, abnormal. And that’s what makes this world beautiful.

[twenty second of the sun]

i think i would be reasonable in calling it bad writing to have absolutely zero lgbtq rep

[Frustration]

27 minutes ago, twenty second of the sun said:

i think i would be reasonable in calling it bad writing to have absolutely zero lgbtq rep

content has no bearing over quality.

[Honorless]

They mean in the Sanderson context, I think. I don't think it's quite so dire.

A lot of people didn't find Ranette being lesbian a bit on the nose, with her being a gun girl, I did a bit. But it's fine, it's not disrespectful or anything, a bit of a trope but that's it. It was done well enough, especially interactions with Wayne. Did she have a girlfriend? I forgot. If she did, would've loved to see her with her lucky girl. If she's single, that's greatly handled then. I stand by what I said about Drehy & LGBT in Roshar. We see zero background gay couples, no idea how they deal with Vorin system, everything we know about LGBT comes from WoBs so far. We do meet a lot of background straight couples & hear or get a bit about them dating, we also see another Bridge 4 member getting together, for Drehy, it's just skipped over. Hopefully that changes going forwards with Renarin & Rlain. Hopefully we don't skip over everything between books 5 & 6.

Edited May 20, 2021 by Honorless

[AquaRegia]

15 hours ago, king of nowhere said:

I did not see the problem, I did not even realize there was a problem; I was naive and ignorant.

Thanks so much for sharing.  These words of yours, in particular, struck me as extremely powerful.  Only an open mind is able to say them.

I have learned a lot in the past few years; I'm STILL naive and ignorant.  All I can do is continue to be willing to learn.

13 hours ago, mdross81 said:

I’ve been tempted to chime in on this thread many times, but have so far held off. But I did want to thank @Honorless for such a thoughtful post and replies. And I wanted to applaud @king of nowhere for being open and making an effort to understand some of the issues faced by the lgbt community.

Not to make light of it, but I kinda feel like there ought to be air horns and party music playing because ... you guys ... one person helped change another person’s mind by commenting on the internet!

Very much agree.  Look: "arguing on the internet" CAN have positive effects!

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

 

@Kingsdaughter613, thank you, the sentiment is appreciated but I'm not entirely sure seeing myself as normal is the right or practical thing to do. I'm not and I'm going to have to be okay with that, I can't pretend everything's fine.

"Normal" is rusting overrated.  In fact, I'll go all the way and assert nobody is "normal" - we all have our kinks.  I'm normal in lots of ways... and quite strange in a few others.

8 hours ago, Honorless said:

A lot of people didn't find Ranette being lesbian a bit on the nose, with her being a gun girl, I did a bit. But it's fine, it's not disrespectful or anything, a bit of a trope but that's it. It was done well enough, especially interactions with Wayne. Did she have a girlfriend? I forgot. If she did, would've loved to see her with her lucky girl.

It is mentioned that Ranette is "courting a woman", but we never get to see her.  As Brandon's first try, I agree it was a bit ham-handed by his high standards... he has improved, and is committed to improving further, I think.

Hugs all around - love you all!

[twenty second of the sun]

17 hours ago, Honorless said:

They mean in the Sanderson context, I think. I don't think it's quite so dire.

i dont mean sanderson necessarily but at this point, if you dint have a reason for why every single character is straight and cis then thats just not realistic, Im done with calling it anything other than lax writing. And I mean this as a general statement, Sanderson has gotten better at this.

 

“content has no bearing over quality”

no offense but that makes no sense.

Edited May 21, 2021 by twenty second of the sun
Trying not to double post

[Celairiel]

@king of nowhere Wow. That response and admitting your former ignorance was really moving. Thank you.

 

I just found this thread today and haven't read the whole thing (probably won't at this point - it got pretty circular there). But I wanted to chime in a couple of thoughts from another member of the LBGTQ+ community.

First, a bit of context because I think when discussing this I want my story (in brief) out there so that my unique perspective can be seen as MY perspective, not a stand-in for all bi women. I didn't realize I was bi until partway through college. I'm LDS, so looking back I did have crushes on girls and women in high school, but didn't recognize them as such. Really just wasn't into guys for a long time, then went boy crazy my freshman year at BYU. Started realizing I wouldn't mind making out with some of my roommates a couple years later and went on some soul searching. Then decided to acknowledge, accept, and ignore that side of myself for another 8-10 years. I finally came out to my family shortly before the pandemic because I wanted to try dating women for the first time (yeah - that didn't happen. Thanks Covid). So I'm a bi woman who has never been on a date with another woman.

On representation being made explicit: Because the default is hetero, mention must be made or else no one knows anything. And because of this, I do think that sometimes LBGTQ+ characters need to have it as a more foreword part of their character than a hetero character. However, I've for a long time felt that more stories can leave out as many relationships as they include. 

On non-LBGTQ+ authors writing representative characters: In one of Brandon's Writing Excuses podcasts, they talked about representation by authors not of the community they are writing. A very good point was made. Those with the influence need to start the trend by writing these characters. And they also need to make room for "own voices" to share. The guest (I'm sorry I don't remember and I'm already up way too late to look up who it was) said that they will write a minority character and also promote authors of that minority group who are writing books that would be enjoyed by the same group of people. This helps get more diverse authors into the field. Also, the talked about how it shouldn't fall on minority authors to write only about their culture. They should also be able to "write the other" as much as a white/het/male/whatever "majority" author can.

And on book suggestions: I saw one of her books on the list, but I want to give a major shout out to Sherwood Smith. Some of her shorter works feel like they didn't get sufficient editing, but on the whole she is one of my favorite authors. I was reading the Inda books at the time I was discovering my bi feelings and it was helpful seeing the wide variety of experience she represents. There is a major male gay character, a couple of bi characters, a couple in an open relationship, a short-term poly relationship, and I'm sure more I can't think of. But for those of you wanting ace characters, I would point you to Banner of the Damned where the main character (it's first person) is ace. And one of the most distinct voices I've ever read. I think you could actually call her ace and polyromantic. And then if you read basically any other of the adult novels in the same world (Sartorius Deles) you can find lots of other permutations of romantic and sexual relationships, most of which are healthy and positive.

 

Edit to add: Ok, I skimmed the rest of the thread. I am so excited about Rlain and Renarin. I didn't pick up the hints of Renarin's crush, but when Rlain reflected on taking mate form I immediately assumed he had discovered he was gay and I was delighted. I imagine him with a femalen deciding to take mateform to have a child and then when they come out of the storm he completely ignores her and chases all the males. It just delighted me. Also, I know it was mentioned, but we actually see an instance of a couple who remain paired up romantically and emotionally in other forms. Can't remember the names right now, but Venli refers to them as "once mates." And they joke about taking mate form together again. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Celairiel

[Proletariat]

On 18/05/2021 at 1:35 PM, Frustration said:

I'm just popping in so here goes.

On ability anyone can(with enough time and practice) get to the level to wright a novel, and with the rise of self publishing it's getting easier.

On willing I don't think you have the right to demand something that you aren't willing to do yourself.

Ok, popping out now.

This really isn't true given most people don't have the opportunity to become a best selling author, and is an unreasonable way to shift a burden of responsibility. The absence of LGBTIQ+ people in media is 'unnatural' given how many of us exist in the world, and our absence is an unjustifiable political choice that writers make often without realising it. We all have a responsibility to evaluate our decisions.

On 19/05/2021 at 0:13 AM, Frustration said:

I have no problem with critisism, it's the hypocracy of excpecting other people to do something you aren't willing to do yourself that gets me.

If you are asking accept them saying no, if you are demanding do something when they do.

If you are being oppressed, don't sit there screaming to get what you want without doing anything about it, stand up and take the rights that God gave you.

If you feel like X isn't being represented is such a problem it must be fixed don't sit there screaming for the current authors to do it, you get up and write it.

On the other hand, if it's just something you want, then ask, but accept no as an answer.

 

Now on leaving the thread I'm more than happy to do so, I only posted in the first place to correct misconnceptions about writing, not get into an argument.

As someone who did an entire degree on writing I will say that this comment of yours reads less as about correcting people on writing, and was more on your values. We should always challenge each other on values otherwise we do not grow, and most of the population notices when people 'accidentally' write stories that are exclusively straight white cis men. A banal story lacking women or minorities is as forced and fantastical in a book or film as someone in real life attempting to take a plastic light saber to battle.

[Frustration]

13 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

This really isn't true given most people don't have the opportunity to become a best selling author, and is an unreasonable way to shift a burden of responsibility. The absence of LGBTIQ+ people in media is 'unnatural' given how many of us exist in the world, and our absence is an unjustifiable political choice that writers make often without realising it. We all have a responsibility to evaluate our decisions.

Being a New York Times Bestseller is not a good way to judge ability to write.

16 minutes ago, Proletariat said:

As someone who did an entire degree on writing I will say that this comment of yours reads less as about correcting people on writing, and was more on your values. We should always challenge each other on values otherwise we do not grow, and most of the population notices when people 'accidentally' write stories that are exclusively straight white cis men. A banal story lacking women or minorities is as forced and fantastical in a book or film as someone in real life attempting to take a plastic light saber to battle.

A degree in writing doesn't get you anything but practice, there are several full time authors who got degrees in completly different fields but still suceeded.

You are projecting stnaces onto me that are not there to begin with.

[Comatose]

@Celairiel Welcome to the conversation and thanks for sharing .  One of things I've really appreciated in this thread is people's' willingness to speak from their personal experience and using that to frame the discussion of what they want to see in future books.  Of course, no one is expected to share anything personal if they are not comfortable, but I think it makes the conversation more interesting and compelling.  Glad you are excited about Renarin and Rlain.  I am very hopeful that in them we will get a fully developed, multi-dimensional same-sex pairing with actual screen time, and I think the characters' backgrounds make them well suited to explore common queer themes.  

Post RoW, I've also started getting more interested in Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin as a ship - I know Brandon is never going to canonize them as any sort of group relationship, but I think the way their personalities and chemistry have developed they could provide a really interesting exploration of polyamory, and/or consensual non-monogamy.  I recognize though the there's a stereotype of bisexual people and non-monogamy, so if he went that route it might not be the best unless he has some counter-examples of monogamous bisexual people.  Just to be clear - not looking to debate whether or not this should happen - just saying I think the dynamic would be interesting to explore.  Maybe I'll write a fic about it, since that's what fic is for . 

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 5/28/2021 at 0:01 PM, Comatose said:

@Celairiel Welcome to the conversation and thanks for sharing .  One of things I've really appreciated in this thread is people's' willingness to speak from their personal experience and using that to frame the discussion of what they want to see in future books.  Of course, no one is expected to share anything personal if they are not comfortable, but I think it makes the conversation more interesting and compelling.  Glad you are excited about Renarin and Rlain.  I am very hopeful that in them we will get a fully developed, multi-dimensional same-sex pairing with actual screen time, and I think the characters' backgrounds make them well suited to explore common queer themes.  

Post RoW, I've also started getting more interested in Shallan/Adolin/Kaladin as a ship - I know Brandon is never going to canonize them as any sort of group relationship, but I think the way their personalities and chemistry have developed they could provide a really interesting exploration of polyamory, and/or consensual non-monogamy.  I recognize though the there's a stereotype of bisexual people and non-monogamy, so if he went that route it might not be the best unless he has some counter-examples of monogamous bisexual people.  Just to be clear - not looking to debate whether or not this should happen - just saying I think the dynamic would be interesting to explore.  Maybe I'll write a fic about it, since that's what fic is for . 

Brandon has said that Kaladin is the sticking point there; Shallan and Adolin would be all for it but Kaladin wouldn’t be.