tropes Nobility

[Honorless]

The epic fantasy genre is still relatively young, at least compared to other literary genres. The foundational work of creating an entirely new category of literature, one defined by the creation of an entirely new fictional world where the story takes place, is attributed to J.R.R. Tolkien. Everything Tolkien had done have become standard fantasy tropes: dark lords, medieval settings, elves and dwarves. Of interest here is the medieval settings part, which defines so much of the fantasy genre: fantasy world settings are mostly based on Europe, around the medieval time period in thought and technology and the nobility. I'm not referring to the quality here, which is it's own trope, but the idea related to class & bloodline & the divine right of kings.

Brandon Sanderson is Mormon, so the portrayal of religion in his works is something that has been discussed a lot. You can find answers to most questions you might want to ask him regarding this on his site itself and there's plenty of discussion here on the forums, on reddit, etc.

The trope of nobles and commoners in his works, however, is something that is not discussed enough in my opinion, and when it is, it's usually mentioned as a throw-away comment: "yes, we get it, Brandon, not all nobles (are bad)"

This trope has evolved over time from its origin, the divine right of kings. In the Lord of the Rings the only difference between the line of Kings and the line of Stewards is their pedigree. Some people are apparently inherently superior and thus have the right to rule over the rest of them. Let's not get into the other critiques of LoTR like race or apologetics (I suggest looking into CS Lewis for more on this). Denethor was a bad ruler not just because he was a bad ruler but because he wasn't the rightful ruler. Aragorn comes and he's the rightful heir and everything's chill now.

The themes are still kinda there in Sanderson's works too, the trope has been transformed but not truly subverted.

In Mistborn era 1, book 2, Elend institutes a constitutional monarchy which is still very skewed with only 1/3 of the representatives being skaa. This assembly then boots him out, rightfully through Elend's own laws but Vin goes on a rampage of murdering and/or forcing his competitors to submit to his rule. In book 3, he decides that the time for debates and legislatures is later somewhere in the indeterminate future when the crisis is over. I do understand what the stakes were that motivated him to do the things he did. I'm simply pointing out a plot point. In era 2 of Mistborn, the legislative branch is divided into two halves: half elected and half aristocrats. The main protagonist is one of the aristocrats and one of the overarching character arcs for him was about accepting the responsibility of being an aristocrat. There are forces from outside of Scadrial who are involved in trying to topple this system.

In Warbreaker, the God-King of Hallandren, Susebron was a figurehead ruler with the power being concentrated in the Court of Gods. The other main characters all belong to the ruling classes as well: two princesses, one of them also the queen, a member of the Court of Gods, and an enigmatic former ruler. The antagonists wanted to overthrow the system but are thwarted at the end by Susebron who comes into his powers after having been educated by the princess-queen and given back his tongue by magic. Hallandren's future looks just a bit brighter with its rightful ruler in power.

In The Stormlight Archives much of the story revolves around the Kholin family, who reunified the broken kingdom of Alethkar. The idea of fighting against the Lighteyes does exist but that stuff is less important than unifying under them to face a greater threat. Also, Lighteyes are mostly descended from the ancient Knights Radiant whose eyes glowed the colour of their Order, that's where both the colour and the notion of superiority came from.

In Elantris, the kingdom of Arelon moves on from plutocracy to monarchy, but we shouldn't worry because Raoden is pretty chill.

~spoilers for Aether of Night~

Spoiler

Aether of Night's main character, Raeth is a twin playing the part of his evil twin brother, who was the former heir. The problem again isn't that someone had total power but that the someone who had total power was not the right someone to have that much power.

 

I'm not saying that these issues might not get resolved in future sequels. The Mistborn era 2 broadsheets seem to be hinting at civil unrest and discontent. And if @asmodeus's theory* is right, it might become a major plot point in eras 3 & 4

Stormlight might not just be about the fight against Odium but a fight against hatred.

And again, I'm aware of the plot, circumstances and characteristics behind these noble characters. I'm just pointing out that these were actual plot points in the stories.

 

Brandon has broken quite a few tropes in his prolific career but for now at least, it seems, that this is the trope that would not break

 

 

*asmodeus' theory:

 

Also, go read Powder Mage you guys!

 

Edit: There is a subversion of this trope in Sanderson's work: White Sand. Making the Diem less dictatorial and more accountable is one of the most integral parts of the plot.

Edited February 17, 2020 by Honorless

[Elsecaller_17.5]

You lost me. Is this just a statement of how you see things your are you rooting for a none monarchy setting?

[Honorless]

This is both an observation and rooting for a non-pro-monarchy setting

[Karger]

In terms of Mistborn era 1 I saw Elend getting booted as pretty realistic.  Vin's rampage as you call it was also pretty in character for her and in all honesty it was not really necessary(Vin could have kidnapped Cet at the beginning of the book and then everything would have been fine).  I think the point of Elend loosing his crown was to point out that there is no perfect solution to government and just doing the right thing does not necessarily imply a good outcome.

[Ixthos]

@Honorless on this topic, what is your take on Terry Pratchett's Discworld, with Carrot and Vetinari?

[Honorless]

6 minutes ago, Ixthos said:

@Honorless on this topic, what is your take on Terry Pratchett's Discworld, with Carrot and Vetinari?

I haven't read Terry Pratchett, I'm afraid. What I know of Discworld comes from cultural osmosis

[Bigmikey357]

Humanity as a species is heirachal in nature.  It makes sense that many of our stories, and most of our most enduring stories involve the nobility of those we choose to lead us. The King Arthur mythos, the pantheon of Gods in both Greek and Norse mythology,  even Jesus was said to be descended from a long line of Kings like David and Solomon.  In some instances both in stories and in real life noble lineage is manufactured.  With these considerations in mind one cannot get around nobility when writing of epic events.  The narrative demands connections to nobility.  Even if the protagonist doesn't start noble,  the farmboy rises to greatness scenario,  they will be noble by book or series end.  Look at Wheel of Time. Three small town kids at the start of the story.  Three emperors at the end.

To be fair, for those who are rooting for the common man to have more representation in the Cosmere,  Brandon has tried to work around the nobility thing as much as realistically possible.  The Azish emperor was once a common thief. The Lord Ruler began life as a common packman.  He was overthrown by a street thief that was the daughter of a priest.  Elend didn't Ascend as the lost rightful ruler, only a noble with good connections who was at the right place and the right time. 

If one objects to nobility in particular they might just be spinning their wheels.  Monarchy is often the default,  and even other systems of government treat the highest members of said government like nobility.  Art imitates life.

[+asmodeus]

Okay, so. First of all, thank you, for the shoutout!

I understand that the vast majority of these setting are pro-monarchy. And in many ways, you can sort of argue that a lot of these settings are very medieval societies, so the prevalence of monarchic and caste systems makes sense in that sense too. (I really should've thought out that last sentence more :P)

Otherwise, it'd be interesting to see what the Cosmere moves towards in this sense. I don't think Autonomy will move everyone towards non-monarchic systems per se, so long as they keep their systems of governance and ideologies to themselves, and don't push those into others. Autonomy won't mind if Sel wants to be monarchic, but it will mind if Sel goes and invades Roshar and pushes it's own monarchy and culture on them forcefully, especially if it wants to stand over them. At the same time, if Roshar chooses to adopt Sel's ideologies and culture willingly, I don't think Bavadin-Autonomy will mind as much, because that's them exercising their Autonomy. Autonomy is only pro "everyone gets to choose for themselves, so long as they don't take choice away from others," applied at a planetary/cultural scale.

Edited February 17, 2020 by asmodeus

[Honorless]

Hmm... I think White Sand can be counted as a subversion of this trope. The Sand Masters, under Kenton, become less autocratic and more integrated with the government and society of Lossand.

[+asmodeus]

4 hours ago, Honorless said:

Hmm... I think White Sand can be counted as a subversion of this trope. The Sand Masters, under Kenton, become less autocratic and more integrated with the government and society of Lossand.

Now that you mention it, the governing structure of Lossand in White Sand itself could be a little bit of a metaphor for how space era Cosmere may be organised.

In White Sand, we have different professions, each with their own unique "home" building (like the Tower, the Diem, the Guild Hall, the Helm, etc.), which in many ways gives them their own unique symbol, and their own unique ways of self-governance, specialisations, etc.

Within a profession, you can have a "monarch" (like with the Tower), or you can have an elective candidate (the Helm), but overall, no one stands above the others, except a judiciary representative. Each is represented as fairly and as equally as possible, when it comes to the governance of the entire nation, and each has an equal say in the matters.

[Pathfinder]

5 hours ago, asmodeus said:

Now that you mention it, the governing structure of Lossand in White Sand itself could be a little bit of a metaphor for how space era Cosmere may be organised.

In White Sand, we have different professions, each with their own unique "home" building (like the Tower, the Diem, the Guild Hall, the Helm, etc.), which in many ways gives them their own unique symbol, and their own unique ways of self-governance, specialisations, etc.

Within a profession, you can have a "monarch" (like with the Tower), or you can have an elective candidate (the Helm), but overall, no one stands above the others, except a judiciary representative. Each is represented as fairly and as equally as possible, when it comes to the governance of the entire nation, and each has an equal say in the matters.

Although mentioned briefly, and we don't know how factual this is, it is mentioned in Stormlight that once upon a time they had a similar structure. Hence the whole Highprince of War, of Information, and so on. It also seemed to be taken from how the Radiants might have structured themselves once upon a time. Brandon has said the skybreakers for instance were very much like military police. 

As to settings defaulting to monarchy, I think it wouldn't be a stretch and would be rather interesting if Brandon told a story in a society functioning in the Athenian democratic tradition. 

[Tglassy]

Some are born great, some achieve greatness, and some have greatness thrust upon them.

 

The stories we read, especially epic fantasy, are about the movers and shakers of the world.  Even when its about a farm boy, it's because that farm boy is in the middle of the conflict.  When someone achieves greatness, either by birth, achievement or accident, others follow.  It's nature.  And in a realm that has yet to go through an industrial era, where the common man becomes more powerful, you will have those who lead, and they will look to keep that in their own family, as a means to secure their legacy.  America is slightly different, in that everything was supposed to be based on merit.  You still have "Old Money", who tries to pretend like they're the rightful elite, but technically, anyone who is able to get the right amount of cash in the bank can become one.  The "Ruling Class" being hereditary is a European idea, not an American one.  

 

In Era 2, there is no emperor, and the Nobility are less and less in charge.  More and more common men are taking prominence, and they are moving more towards a true democratic society.  

 

I feel that, with Elend in book 2, he was ahead of his time.  The reason why America worked after the War for Independence was because they were already ruling themselves.  So much so that they were wondering why they had to pay taxes to a King that didn't do anything to help them.  But in Luthadel, they were all used to having the Ruler dominate them.  Very few were capable of dealing with their newfound freedom, and were thus easily manipulated.  You can't simply force democracy on a people who is not ready for it.  Democracy requires a sense of self responsibility, and more than a fair bit of competence.  The Skaa didn't have that.  

 

Also, 2/3rds of the assembly were Skaa.  It's just, half of them were the new Merchant Class, and so they identified more with the Nobility.  

[Honorless]

Oh I understand the issues. Plus, the trope also solves a few writing issues like how to give your character enough manpower to face his enemies and why your character would have certain skills.

I just want more divergent viewpoints which I think we might get in Stormlight itself if Venli doesn't outright join the Urithiru coalition and Kaladin doesn't put off fighting for equality for another day.

[Toaster Retribution]

I think we have plenty of anti-monarchy perspectives. 

The aristocrats in Mistborn Era 1 are chulldung (except for Elend, and arguably a few others) but most of them are seen as the monsters they are. All our POVs (except for Elend) also belong to the oppressed classes in one way or another. Elends arc in books two and three are about wether you can combine principle and idealism with the pragmatism that is needed to defend your people. It also shows the flaws of the democratic system (and it does have flaws, just lesser ones than other systems). 

Era 2 is also pretty critical of most noblemen. Wax makes a point of actually being a good lord, and caring for his people, which isnt something that a lot of the others are doing. The characters in Warbreaker also tries to do good with their power.

As for SA, Kaladin, Moash, Teft, Lift are all from the non-privileged parts of society, and especially Kaladin and Moash delivers harsh criticism towards the system. 

My point is that none of these are actually uncritically pro hierarchies. They just show people with power who tries to use power for good things, instead of attempting to tear the system down. 

[Honorless]

That's was not my point at all.

"They just show people with power who tries to use power for good things" this is closer to the point I was trying to make, that spin to the classic trope

"attempting to tear the system down" I would prefer to see the modern systems in the making too. Too long has fantasy been stuck in the middle ages

[18th Shard]

To be fair, there are very few democratic systems in our world that existed prior to the printing press and the Renaissance - rapid communication of ideas combined with technologies that made any late comers very disadvantaged. Prior to this, you have the Athenian democracy, which occurred in a small city-state for only around 200 years (and that democratic privilege was not extended to those the city exerted influence over). You also have the Roman Republic, which arguably was less democratic than Azir or the Lossand. Democracy also tends to function best when a nation is not under extreme crisis, when a powerful individual takes control to avert whatever is going on. Crisis is generally the condition that our books occur in. 

Until cosmere technology and communications catch up to Renaissance era in our world, I wouldn't expect democracy to be long lasting anywhere it did occur.

Edited February 24, 2020 by 18th Shard

[Steel Inquisitive]

Roshar has faster than light communication....

[DiePie]

On 2/24/2020 at 7:09 PM, Steel Inquisitive said:

Roshar has faster than light communication....

yeah but that's not like the printing press, which is mass-communication

[+Invocation]

2 hours ago, DiePie said:

yeah but that's not like the printing press, which is mass-communication

Not yet. Wait until they figure out how to split the gem multiple ways, or link the connections. Faster-than-light printing presses.