Odium??

[Iapetus the Titan]

Okay. I'm just trying to get my facts about Odium straight. He is the shard of hatred, and is going about the cosmere killing the other shards, trying to become the last "god". but then he made a deal with Honor, that if he could get a bondsmith to let him go, then he could leave, but then the desolation happened, and he got stuck on Roshar. yes?

[RShara]

We're not entirely sure of the order of events. But Odium certainly got trapped on Roshar by Honor and Cultivation before the Heralds were created, and definitely before the Radiants were created. We don't know how H&C trapped him, just that it involved both their powers somehow.

Odium doesn't Invest in places, so he wouldn't have created the Fused and the Unmade before he got trapped on Roshar, So the Desolations, the Fused, the Heralds, and the Radiants (which were based on the Heralds) definitely post-dated that.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Iapetus the Titan said:

then he made a deal with Honor

Not exactly.  Honor's power is the power of binding and promises and he used it to bind Odium to Braize(we think the whole way this works has not really been explained).  The way I think about it Honor stated something like "You shall never be free." and a result Odium was stuck.  Dalinar has access to Honor's power(or most of what is left of it) so he can let Odium out if he chooses to.

[KandraAllomancer]

The way I see it, there are two possible scenarios:

A. Odium is forcibly bound to Braize by H&C  - which probably involved the Dawnshards, which may be of Honor (in line with @Karger's answer) or something completely else (relics from Yolen, maybe?)

B. H&C somehow get the upper hand and Odium finds himself in a situation where he might be heavily wounded or even killed. He makes a deal with Honor to choose imprisonment because, just like in Ruin's case, time means very little to him

The fact that Odium can even be freed, and all it requires is a decision of a Bondsmith bonded with Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, makes me think option B is more probable

20 hours ago, RShara said:

Odium doesn't Invest in places, so he wouldn't have created the Fused and the Unmade before he got trapped on Roshar, So the Desolations, the Fused, the Heralds, and the Radiants (which were based on the Heralds) definitely post-dated that.

I agree that Odium would never permanently Invest in a place, but temporarily? The Svrakiss on Sel sound very similar to the Fused, so I think the creation of them and the Unmade might have been part of Odium's time-tested strategy against H&C. When he was defeated, most of his forces were imprisoned with him, but that doesn't seem to be the case for the Unmade

Edited February 16, 2020 by KandraAllomancer

[Honorless]

44 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I agree that Odium would never permanently Invest in a place, but temporarily? The Svrakiss on Sel sound very similar to the Fused, so I think the creation of them and the Unmade might have been part of Odium's time-tested strategy against H&C. When he was defeated, most of his forces were imprisoned with him, but that doesn't seem to be the case for the Unmade

I actually have a theory about the Svrakiss:

 

@Iapetus the Titan, here's the story of Odium, or at least as much of it as we know or can infer

Rayse was once friends with Hoid. After the Shattering, he took up the Shard of Odium. He wants to be the top dog and to that end has a hitlist. At the top of the list was Ambition. He didn't manage to find Ambition before finding Devotion and Dominion, whom he Splintered and then he stuffed their power into the Cognitive Realm. With Devotion and Dominion, he had the argument that Aona and Skai (the Vessels) broke the oath that they made to settle on separate worlds. Then he found Ambition. Odium and Ambition fought in the space between worlds, Odium ripped chunks of power off Ambition, mortally wounding her. Ambition fled and died elsewhere. Odium arrived in the Rosharan system, possibly on Ashyn since he followed the refugees from there to Roshar. Something happened and allegiances were shifted. Humans turned to Honor and Cultivation, who turned from the Dawnsingers / Parshendi / Singers / Listeners, who turned to Odium. We don't know what happened there, who switched first, what caused it yet. Sometime around here Odium was bound in Braize. Odium starts Investing and Corrupting. Presumably, Voidbinding, Voidspren, the Fused and possibly the Unmade were created around this time. The Heralds are chosen and swear the Oathpact to keep Odium's forces, primarily the Fused from simply returning from death when killed. The deal involves them being sent to Braize upon death or willingly going there and getting caught and tortured. However long they can hold on is how long the break between Desolations last. The spren emulate the Honorblades given to the Heralds by Honor and start granting Surgebinding to humans. At this point all the remaining Singers feel betrayed by the gods and spren. One group of Singers from the Last Legion, calling themselves the Listeners, split off and took shelter in the ruins of Stormseat. Honor starts dying. He slowly passes off his duties and some of his powers to The Stormfather. Somewhere around this Aharietiam happens, 9 of the Heralds abandon the Oathpact. Honor starts raving to the last generation of the Radiants. The Sibling starts to withdraw. The False Desolation. The Unmade, Ba-Ado-Mishram's imprisonment and end of the False Desolation. Presumably, Re-Shephir was also imprisoned around this time. The Recreance, the Knights Radiant abandon their Oaths and spren. Honor finally dies and his Cognitive Shadow merges with The Stormfather.

Edited February 16, 2020 by Honorless

[Karger]

1 hour ago, KandraAllomancer said:

A. Odium is forcibly bound to Braize by H&C  - which probably involved the Dawnshards, which may be of Honor (in line with

Odium according to reliable sources is sealed to Braize by the powers of Honor and Cultivation

[KandraAllomancer]

10 minutes ago, Karger said:

Odium according to reliable sources is sealed to Braize by the powers of Honor and Cultivation

I guess it comes down to the definition of "sealed". Even if Odium makes a binding oath that imprisons him, he still needs to be actively kept in line - the oath would affect Rayse only, leaving the Fused free to attack Roshar. That's why the Oathpact was needed in the first place... Anyway, if both H&C power are the only thing keeping Odium imprisoned, why the power to release him lies in the hands of one individual? Why not all Bondsmiths at once, for example?

[Karger]

37 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

power to release him lies in the hands of one individual? Why not all Bondsmiths at once, for example?

The one individual used to be Honor himself.  With his death that power passes on to the next person to hold it.  That person happens to be Dalinar.

[KandraAllomancer]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

The one individual used to be Honor himself.  With his death that power passes on to the next person to hold it.  That person happens to be Dalinar.

I know, but why not a Bondsmith bonded to the Nightwatcher? Why Cultivation, the Slammer herself, seems to have no right to veto Dalinar's decision? All that makes me think that there might have been some oath made by Rayse to Tanavast specifically. "Might have been" being the key word here, I'm not denying that you might be right

[Karger]

45 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

I know, but why not a Bondsmith bonded to the Nightwatcher?

Dalinar is bonded to the stormfather who has the power of Honor left to him.  The Nightwatcher is no relation to Honor but Cultivation's child and we have no idea about the sibiling. 

47 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

Why Cultivation, the Slammer herself, seems to have no right to veto Dalinar's decision?

Hers is the power of growth not bonds. 

[KandraAllomancer]

14 hours ago, Karger said:

Hers is the power of growth not bonds. 

Do we even have any evidence that Honor alone (without any external help - Cultivation, Dawnshards, Oathpact etc.) can force any kind of bond? The Stormfather, despite being Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, is unable to prevent Syl from bonding with Kaladin, so I would assume free will must be very important to Honor's Intent.

There is obviously a distant possibility that Tanavast imprisoned Odium at the cost of his mind, just like Preservation did, but there is nothing specific to Honor about that

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

without any external help - Cultivation, Dawnshards, Oathpact etc.) can force any kind of bond?

All bonds happen due to Honor forced or not. 

8 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

The Stormfather, despite being Tanavast's Cognitive Shadow, is unable to prevent Syl from bonding with Kaladin, so I would assume free will must be very important to Honor's Intent.

His intent seems to be pro bond so he can't stop himself from allowing a bond is my interpretation.

[KandraAllomancer]

9 hours ago, Karger said:

All bonds happen due to Honor forced or not. 

Seons, Skaze, Voidspren, stealing a bond via Hemalurgy - we actually have a lot of examples that don't involve Honor. According to my understanding the only thing required for a bond is some form of Spiritual Connection

9 hours ago, Karger said:

His intent seems to be pro bond so he can't stop himself from allowing a bond is my interpretation.

The Stormfather at the beginning of TWoK (already Tanavast's CS, not yet bonded with Dalinar) is very adamant about enforcing existing oaths and is rather encouraging about humans making new ones (Dalinar and Navani's wedding, for example) - but we never see him forcing any oaths and in some situations (Syl) he even discourages them. I would assume this is as close to pure Intent of Honor as we can get

[Karger]

Just now, KandraAllomancer said:

Seons, Skaze, Voidspren, stealing a bond via Hemalurgy - we actually have a lot of examples that don't involve Honor

Strictly speaking they do.  For a bond of any type to occur Honor must be involved in some capacity.  It does not matter if the bond is magical spiritual or physical in nature.

5 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

but we never see him forcing any oaths and in some situations (Syl) he even discourages them. I would assume this is as close to pure Intent of Honor as we can get

He calls himself the spren of oaths.  If he is what he says he cannot stop an oath from happening and he must respect it when it does happen.

[KandraAllomancer]

12 hours ago, Karger said:

Strictly speaking they do.  For a bond of any type to occur Honor must be involved in some capacity.

Do we have any evidence of this? I find it hard to believe that bonding with Voidspren involves Honor in any way

12 hours ago, Karger said:

He calls himself the spren of oaths.  If he is what he says he cannot stop an oath from happening and he must respect it when it does happen.

Oaths, precisely. There are very different things here:

Oaths - all they require is an intentional decision of an individual. You can force it to some degree ('Make this Oath or die!'), but there must be specific Intention for it to be valid in any sense. Oaths in general don't need to involve any magic or bond (e.g. taking a vow of silence) to be encouraged by the Stormfather, I think

Bonds - as I wrote above, I don't think they necessarily involve Honor. They are just symbiotic relationships between humans (or other species) and pieces of self-aware Investiture, based on Spiritual Connection. Bonding with a Voidspren doesn't require any Oath, just a specific mental state

Finally, we have forced imprisonment of magical variety ('binding' I guess?) - on Roshar it's done with gemstones (Bondsmiths and the Unmade, modern Fabrials) and I agree that in these cases Honor is involved. We see forced imprisonment using completely different mechanisms and Shards on other planets (Scadrial), though. The Dawnshards are described as being able to do something like this, and they might be either of H&C, some other Shard from Ashyn or even predate the Shattering for all we know

Edited February 18, 2020 by KandraAllomancer

[Honorless]

@KandraAllomancer, we have confirmation that the Shards' powers are spread throughout the Cosmere. The Vessels' minds though are mortal, that's why Shards seem concentrated on their Shardworld. In the Cosmere, Ruin is entropy, and as such his Investiture is everywhere, even though his attention isn't. This WoB regarding Nightblood having Ruin's Investiture puts it best:

Quote

Walin

Does Nightblood contain any of Ruin's Investiture? Like, not atium, but...

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, technically; and I'm not wiggling around that, because technically, location in the Cosmere and who belongs to what gets really weird, right? Because Ruin's Investiture is everywhere--but I'm not talking that way. I'm talking the way you actually mean it. 

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

Looks like Shards too need to do some Investiture hacks (and Autonomy is already on it with her Avatars)

[KandraAllomancer]

@Honorless

I absolutely agree, but the fact that some level of Honor Investiture exists everywhere doesn't mean that all bonds (which seem to be purely Spiritual constructs to me) involve Honor. To provide some analogy: Dustbringers definitely use very entropy-themed magic, but I don't think anybody would say their Surgebinding involves Ruin. Nightblood seems to be some non-trivial special example here.

And even if Honor is associated with all bonds in general, there is still no evidence that he can simply bind Odium without Rayse's intentional Oath or the Dawnshards

[Honorless]

47 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

@Honorless

I absolutely agree, but the fact that some level of Honor Investiture exists everywhere doesn't mean that all bonds (which seem to be purely Spiritual constructs to me) involve Honor. To provide some analogy: Dustbringers definitely use very entropy-themed magic, but I don't think anybody would say their Surgebinding involves Ruin. Nightblood seems to be some non-trivial special example here.

And even if Honor is associated with all bonds in general, there is still no evidence that he can simply bind Odium without Rayse's intentional Oath or the Dawnshards

We don't know the relationship between Connection and Honor, that part's true. And the Shardic nature thing is inherent to all the Shards, also true, but there's no reason why that couldn't be tied to Honor, who is, after all, part of Adonalsium's very nature.

Regarding the Dustbringer part, their eyes turned red, which is the colour that signifies Corruption, so there might be something there... 

[Karger]

47 minutes ago, KandraAllomancer said:

To provide some analogy: Dustbringers definitely use very entropy-themed magic, but I don't think anybody would say their Surgebinding involves Ruin

Any entropy created by anyone involves Ruin.  There is a WoB that states that any act of stasis involves Preservation but I can't find it right now.

 

[Honorless]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

Any entropy created by anyone involves Ruin.  There is a WoB that states that any act of stasis involves Preservation but I can't find it right now.

Here you go:

Quote

Overlord Jebus

Is all Investiture in the cosmere associated with a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, well, okay. So this is a complicated one. *pauses* So, Investiture predates the Shattering of Adonalsium, all Investiture was from Adonalsium, all Investiture got assigned to one of the 16 Shards when Adonalsium was Shattered. Some of the Investiture was not on Yolen but location is irrelevant. So Investiture is related to Shards even on planets where none of the Shards are inhabiting. 

Overlord Jebus

Are they aware of that Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of the whole seeing into the infinite, being beyond even the power of a Shard. So, technically you could make the argument that Harmony could feel the sense of Preservation on every world in the cosmere, right? Because the building blocks of all life and creation are these things.

Overlord Jebus

So the Shard of Preservation embodies all preservation in the cosmere?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes but he just can't do that, right? Like, he's not infinite. The Vessels are not, even if their minds are enormously expanded by holding a Shard, they are not infinite. The Connection is all there in the Spiritual Realm

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

[Karger]

Just now, Honorless said:

Here you go:

THANK YOU!

[Thanatos]

I wonder how the Cosmere changed after the shattering taking into account the below.

If Uncle Andy was omnipresent, controlling all aspects of the Cosmere at all times, what happens to the investiture were there are no minds of the shards there. 

There would have to be some form of change.

[KandraAllomancer]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

We don't know the relationship between Connection and Honor, that part's true. And the Shardic nature thing is inherent to all the Shards, also true, but there's no reason why that couldn't be tied to Honor, who is, after all, part of Adonalsium's very nature.

I think that Honor embodies oaths (including binding Oaths by other Shards), just like Ruin embodies entropy. Let's imagine, for example, what would happen if H&C settled on Scadrial instead of Roshar. I would assume that in such scenario there would be a new kind of Metallic Art with Initiation based on progressive Oaths. No bonds, since there would be no spren. I don't think Honor has more monopoly on bonds than Odium has on Passion. Oath-based bonds fall under his domain, sure, but bonding with a Voidspren is borderline demonic possession and it's very hard for me to imagine how it could stem from Honor's Intent

5 hours ago, Karger said:

THANK YOU!

I think that forcibly binding/imprisoning a sentient being (the Unmade, true Spren in half-shards) and its ethical implications will be major topics in the Rhythm of War, so we'll hopefully get some answers about how it works and how it relates to Honor's Intent relatively soon

[Eternal Khol]

1 hour ago, Thanatos said:

I wonder how the Cosmere changed after the shattering taking into account the below.

If Uncle Andy was omnipresent, controlling all aspects of the Cosmere at all times, what happens to the investiture were there are no minds of the shards there. 

There would have to be some form of change.

There’s a WoB that the shattering meant everything/nothing to investiture.

 

“what happens to the investiture were there are no minds of the shards there.“

Take a look at First of The Sun. Brandon has said everything happening there could’ve happened with or without a shard present

the investiture was already there pre-shattering

Edited February 18, 2020 by Eternal Khol

[DiePie]

I would think that the shards having domain over their elements (like all entropy being an embodiment of Ruin, or all oaths being an embodiment of Honor) would be similar to, say, the Greek Gods. Take Poseidon for example, while his domain is the ocean, he cannot simply sense everything in the ocean, it just happens to be his domain. Most of what happens in the ocean happens without Poseidon's conscious interference. He reserves the power to do so, but at the end of the day, he is just the powerful deity who resides over the ocean, ruling much like a King would.

Thinking about it, the shattering of Adonalsiuim sounds remarkably similar to the Greek gods divvying up Cronos's powers; smaller powers kill the physical carrier of a god's powers and divide up the resulting powers arbitrarily.