IRE are the cause of the Evil

[Pathfinder]

So crackpot theory that just popped into my head (I will need to dig a bit to check a few things in the meantime). The IRE has a problem with Threnody enough to have guards and a form of a fabrial to detect them. One of the IRE even says "The powers of Threnody wish to join the main stage". We also know when Kelsier speaks with Nazh that as of that time to Nazh's knowledge, becoming a cognitive shadow is something that is revered, has traditions, and is an important rite. He makes no reference or mention to shades as we know of them as the time of Shadows for Silence in the Forest of Hell. So, what if between the time of Kelsier's Secret History interaction with the IRE, and Shadows of Silence in the Forest of Hell, that the IRE come into full on conflict with the "Deepest Ones"? What if originally the Deepest Ones were the individuals that became cognitive shadows via traditions and rites to guide their people? What if the IRE didn't like the competition, and shots were fired leading the IRE to make and use a weapon that resulted in the "Evil" that changed the cognitive shadows on Threnody? We know the IRE are already willing to meddle with other worlds, and disregard the survival of the people on that planet so long as their goals are attained. We also know they have knowledge to create devices that play with connection and investiture (the orb they were going to use to gain connection to preservation, and thereby "steal" the shard). Maybe they found a way to destroy or prevent the cognitive shadows from higher thought, and resulted in their more destructive natures. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+ILuvHats]

Equally crackpot theorizing: 

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

"The powers of Threnody wish to join the main stage"

It stuck out to me that the speaker doesn't speak of Threnody as a whole, but "the powers." This line makes me think of the Ghostbloods. Plenty of people have speculated that the Ghostbloods were founded by Threnodites, or that the organization has some sort of strong connection to the planet. The "evidence" being that Ghost could be a reference to shades, and Mraize's attitude, which reflects the ruthless pursuit of power above all else. And people have noted that this attitude reeks of ambition, or should I say Ambition. And I don't know about you, but I'd love to see conflict between the Ghostbloods and the IRE.

[Honorless]

36 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

Equally crackpot theorizing: 

It stuck out to me that the speaker doesn't speak of Threnody as a whole, but "the powers." This line makes me think of the Ghostbloods. Plenty of people have speculated that the Ghostbloods were founded by Threnodites, or that the organization has some sort of strong connection to the planet. The "evidence" being that Ghost could be a reference to shades, and Mraize's attitude, which reflects the ruthless pursuit of power above all else. And people have noted that this attitude reeks of ambition, or should I say Ambition. And I don't know about you, but I'd love to see conflict between the Ghostbloods and the IRE.

Mraize is confirmed to be a Rosharan native:

Quote

Khyrindor

So, I was hoping to get a confirmation on Mraize's age?

Brandon Sanderson

I'd probably-- Well, what did I say before?

Khyrindor

Not sure, I was just asking the question.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay good, I didn't think that I had confirmed this. I'm going to RAFO it.

Khyrindor

Like, is he older than a normal person?

Brandon Sanderson

I will RAFO it, yeah. Let's say though, that, though he has been off-world, he himself is a Rosharan.

Khyrindor

A Roshar native?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

Quote

Peter Ahlstrom

I think it's pretty clear in the book that Mraize is from Thaylenah.

Peter Ahlstrom

And I wasn't being sarcastic or joking when I said I thought it was obvious from the text that Mraize was a Thaylen from Thaylenah.

Miscellaneous 2014 (Aug. 12, 2014)

Quote

Botanica

Mraize is said to come from Thaylenah. If it is true, then what about his eyebrows? 'Cause we didn't see any related descriptions from Shallan's PoVs. Did he cut/shave/dye his eyebrows?

Brandon Sanderson

Mraize...well, let's just say that much about him is mysterious. But no, you would not place him as Thaylen by his eyebrows.

Stormlight Three Update #4 (Oct. 11, 2016)

 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, ILuvHats said:

Equally crackpot theorizing: 

It stuck out to me that the speaker doesn't speak of Threnody as a whole, but "the powers." This line makes me think of the Ghostbloods. Plenty of people have speculated that the Ghostbloods were founded by Threnodites, or that the organization has some sort of strong connection to the planet. The "evidence" being that Ghost could be a reference to shades, and Mraize's attitude, which reflects the ruthless pursuit of power above all else. And people have noted that this attitude reeks of ambition, or should I say Ambition. And I don't know about you, but I'd love to see conflict between the Ghostbloods and the IRE.

Hmmm. Which could mean the conflict is still ongoing as of stormlight since I believe (correct me if I am wrong) Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell takes place after Stormlight. So as of stormlight we could still be seeing the "before". Before whatever the weapon is used. Potentially the "Evil" could have been the end of the Ghostbloods as we know it. 

58 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Mraize is confirmed to be a Rosharan native:

 

I think (correct me if I am wrong), @ILuvHats was saying the organization itself is sourced from Threnody, but the individual members can originate from many other places. That Mraize is showing attributes that may be seen as desirable in the organization. And those attributes they prize could be sourced with Ambition due to the potential origin of the organization. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Ciridae]

I really like the idea that the Ire came into conflict with the powers of Threnody, and I like the idea that they created the Evil to deal with whatever powers they felt threatened by. 
But I think the way Shades work on the new continent has been that way even before the Evil drove everyone from the home continent. So the actual Shades are not a result of whatever the Ire may have done. But I could totally see the Deepest Ones being the ritualistic Shades Nazh talked about and that they were somehow changed. My only question would be, how did they get to the new continent then? 

[+ILuvHats]

@Pathfinder You are correct. That’s basically what I was saying. I hadn’t seen all of the WoBs Honorless listed, but I figured Mraize was at least of Rosharan descent if not a native considering he uses a lot of Thaylen terms. But the Ghostbloods clearly recruit from many sources. Mraize is Rosharan, Iyatil is ethnically South Scadrial but from Silverlight, and we have a WoB somewhere that the Ghostbloods are perfectly willing to recruit from the 17th shard. 

[Pathfinder]

21 hours ago, Ciridae said:

I really like the idea that the Ire came into conflict with the powers of Threnody, and I like the idea that they created the Evil to deal with whatever powers they felt threatened by. 
But I think the way Shades work on the new continent has been that way even before the Evil drove everyone from the home continent. So the actual Shades are not a result of whatever the Ire may have done. But I could totally see the Deepest Ones being the ritualistic Shades Nazh talked about and that they were somehow changed. My only question would be, how did they get to the new continent then? 

Hmmm. So some random thoughts. Perhaps the shades on the continent were the result of past battles, and the evil was the final salvo? Or perhaps the evil did not manifest fully onto the physical realm till recent, but its influence was felt across the world in the shades? Or maybe the evil was an unintended result of a group trying to fix what the IRE did initially. So the shades as we know it are due to the IRE, and then a group trying to fix that, caused the Evil?

21 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

@Pathfinder You are correct. That’s basically what I was saying. I hadn’t seen all of the WoBs Honorless listed, but I figured Mraize was at least of Rosharan descent if not a native considering he uses a lot of Thaylen terms. But the Ghostbloods clearly recruit from many sources. Mraize is Rosharan, Iyatil is ethnically South Scadrial but from Silverlight, and we have a WoB somewhere that the Ghostbloods are perfectly willing to recruit from the 17th shard. 

Glad I understood correctly. 

[Elegy]

On 12.2.2020 at 8:11 PM, Pathfinder said:

Hmmm. Which could mean the conflict is still ongoing as of stormlight since I believe (correct me if I am wrong) Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell takes place after Stormlight. So as of stormlight we could still be seeing the "before". Before whatever the weapon is used. Potentially the "Evil" could have been the end of the Ghostbloods as we know it. 

Shadows for Silence is before Stormlight but after Warbreaker:

Quote

Questioner

Can you put the Cosmere books into [chronological] order?

Brandon Sanderson

Here is the order that I have publicly confirmed. There are obviously other books and stories fitting in there. For those, you’ll just need to RAFO.

• Elantris
• The Emperor’s Soul
• First Mistborn trilogy (The Final Empire)
• Warbreaker
• Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell
• The Stormlight Archive
• Wax and Wayne Era Mistborn (Alloy of Law)
• Sixth of the Dusk
• Future Mistborn trilogy

Miscellaneous 2016 (July 15, 2016)

That means it's during the ~200 years before Stormlight, the Evil started a hundred years before the events of the story. So it probably occured some time between Mistborn Era 1 and Warbreaker.

@OT: I had a similar idea once and it seems very plausible to me. The only thing that makes it a tad unlikely is meta reasons: The explanation of an essential world-building element of Threnody would be closely related to a world-building element of a whole different world of a whole different story (especially since I suspect that we will see more of the Ire in the Elantris sequels). It doesn't seem that much like how the Cosmere worked in the past. But apart from that, I like the thought that the Ire scenes in Secret History are kind of a foreshadowing to the origins of the Evil. If Brandon worked differently, I would probably call it one of the more likely theories about it.

[Pathfinder]

19 minutes ago, Elegy said:

@OT: I had a similar idea once and it seems very plausible to me. The only thing that makes it a tad unlikely is meta reasons: The explanation of an essential world-building element of Threnody would be closely related to a world-building element of a whole different world of a whole different story (especially since I suspect that we will see more of the Ire in the Elantris sequels). It doesn't seem that much like how the Cosmere worked in the past. But apart from that, I like the thought that the Ire scenes in Secret History are kind of a foreshadowing to the origins of the Evil. If Brandon worked differently, I would probably call it one of the more likely theories about it.

Kind of like how a whole book was created just to act as a "prequel" to help explain the incluson of a character on an entirely different planet? (Warbreaker, Nightblood). See what you are saying, but I don't think the structure of the cosmere precludes it. Thanks for the additional input on the timeline! Definitely helps me tweak my theory!

Edited February 14, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Angsos]

Didn't Odium and Ambition have something to do with Threnody getting screwed up

[Pathfinder]

10 minutes ago, Angsos said:

Didn't Odium and Ambition have something to do with Threnody getting screwed up

I'd have to check but I don't recall WoB linking Odium/Ambition to the "evil". I know Odium mortally wounded Ambition, and after fleeing, Ambition died near Threnody. 

[Karger]

Maybe the "evil" is a perversion of whatever "important rite" Nazh was talking about IE a bunch of people decided to manipulate the process in an unholy way and are now challenging the IRI for control of the cosmere.

[Pathfinder]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Maybe the "evil" is a perversion of whatever "important rite" Nazh was talking about IE a bunch of people decided to manipulate the process in an unholy way and are now challenging the IRI for control of the cosmere.

Again, not sure if I am misunderstanding you. The IRE have beef with Threnody at the same time that Nazh states becoming a cognitive shadow is a sacred rite. Theoretically that is before the Evil was a thing. Which is why I theorized the IRE could potentially be the cause. But if I understand you correctly, you are saying that threnody wanting to be a power player, manipulated the process and caused the Evil years later? If I got you right, then could be.