Aimians: Native or not?

[Gilphon]

So, to give a bit of backstory, I walked away from Oathbringer just kind of subconsciously assuming that the Aimians weren't native to Roshar. Strongly enough that it caught me off guard when I found out that some people hadn't been assuming that. So I've decided that laying out of my case might be beneficial. And then maybe somebody who believes they are native will lay out a case for the opposite position. But without further ado:

1. Aimia as a biome. 

So what is Aimia is, in essence, is a landmass far to the west of Roshar that's very isolated from the rest of the continent and as a bunch of animals that aren't seen anywhere else. Which is a description that reminds me a lot of the other far western Rosharan country. Now, this might be the totally natural consequence of the island being isolated- it might be the Australia of Roshar, but if there was a second sizeable wave of refugees, one from a world whose Biome was dramatically different from both Rosharan and Ashyn, surely that island would be where they'd set them up.

And the special case study here are the Larkins. They seem to be a pretty hardy animal, with Chiri-chiri surviving just fine in both Thaylen city and the Reshi sea. But they're still heavily associated with Aimia- and rare enough outside of it that it's assumed that they went extinct with the Scouring. Not sure what's going on there- less likely Ashyn animals have spread to the rest of the Continent, but it's gonna be interesting to watch what happens as Chiri-chiri grow. And it's notable to me that Larkins don't seem to have any obvious relatives among Rosharan fauna- being able to use Stormlight as a food source is a pretty useful adaptation on Roshar; one you wouldn't think would be confined to a single species. Unless, of course, it's not a trait that evolved on Roshar. 

2. Siah Aimians

So I feel pretty confident about these guys not being native. At the very least, we can say with confidence that the writer of the Elia Stele wasn't aware of them, since they share may of the 'Alien' traits that seemed so strange in the humans. And nor do they feel Ashynite to me; for the record- I feel like the Natan people having Aimian blood would be less notable if they'd all just mixed together immediately after arriving on Roshar. And now's probably a good time to mention that Aimian is a distinct language family from the rest of Roshar, which is further supporting evidence.

And, more vaguely and subjectively, they just don't feel like any other lifeform on Roshar. 

3. The Sleepless

Now, we know that the Sleepless are Cosmere-aware, and that there are Sleepless on other Planets, and Brandon's mentioned that Hordelings are bred to look like Cremlings so they can blend in on Roshar, which paint a pretty clear picture to me when taken together. But it's the last point I'd like to focus in on; the Hordelings are bred to look like Cremlings. This is project that doesn't appear to have been entirely successful; Hordelings are consistently described as being 'weird' or 'oddly-coloured'. Although Rosharans categorize them under the broad umbrella of 'Cremling', they're visibly an unusual species of Cremling. Despite thousands of years of trying to blend in, they still don't look entirely right. Which is odd; insects tend to be pretty good at pretending to be a different kind of insect. This implies to me that they're not relatives of 'true' cremlings in any way; that without the thousands of years selective breeding they wouldn't look even vaguely similar. 

I mean, the Sleepless don't immediately ping as non-Natives like the Siah do, but I feel reasonably confident that that's because they're making more of conscious effort to blend in with the natives- that they'd be just as if not more visibly alien if they weren't trying to hide. 

And, as final note, I'd like to point out that the magical effects we've seen on Roshar fall into two broad categories- interaction with Spren, and direct Shardic intervention. And, in fact, Jasnah would probably argue that those are basically the same thing; that Shards are effectively just the most powerful spren in existence. The only exception is when Aimia comes up; both sapient races and the Larkin are magical in ways that don't seem to fit into that paradigm. Aimia just feels like a place where the normal rules don't apply. Which, of course, is exactly how it would feel if it was full of alien magics.

[Honorless]

I think they're not native. It's even in their name, two completely different races (Siah & Dysian) being referred to by the same name 'Aimian'? Both also have extremely different biology, with different blood colour being the smallest example. One is a colony/hive, the other is partially in the Cognitive judging by how their shadows behave. They are very different from the native crustacean-like Rosharan species 

Edited March 21, 2020 by Dreamer

[Eternal Khol]

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Basic stuff about the 2 types of Aimians, both of which have extended control of their own biology, both of which more or less refugees. He also said that they have cosmere significance.

Words of Radiance Dayton signing (March 19, 2014)

 

now the question is, are they refugees from another Planet or from somewhere else on Roshar

[Draginon]

They’re definitely alien but then what planet would they have come from? The one type, with their shapeshifting, is almost like Kandra shapeshifting but not quite unless they are distant descendants of Kandra and another race. The Sleepless are interesting trying to figure out where they would naturally evolve from.

[Bigmikey357]

For the Dysians I agree 100 percent.  The Sians? I believe they are native. You can't use the Rosharan naming conventions as proof of anything; they put wide umbrellas on everything.  Anything with wings is a chicken. A lion for them would be some type of mink. Grouping the Siah and Dysian in itself is one of the most insane variants of Rosharan naming conventions as it is obvious as breathing that the two species don't belong together in any way. 

Anyway,  I believe that the Siah Amians are a native species to Roshar,  just not to its Physical Realm.  I believe that they evolved in Shadesmar. The wrong way shadows, their malleability and their near immortality are all characteristic of a being more related to the spren than any Physical Realm inhabitant has any right to be. And as for being Cosmere aware, well they would tend to meet many worldhoppers in Shadesmar. 

[Gilphon]

Hmm. That's an interesting idea that I don't see any obvious reason to dismiss. It's a good angle to approach the issue of their shadows, which has always kind of defied explanation to me. If you're right, then to me the question becomes 'do they look human because their origins post-date the arrival of the humans, or is that just their malleability at work?'

 

[Koloss17]

I think of them like the light spren; human like in form, with some notable differences. Perhaps they came through an oath gate or perpendicularity or something of the sort.

unless this is just what they look like in the physical Realm, being a gigantic creature with a human on its chest, which is only what is seen in the physical. That would be scary.

[KandraAllomancer]

We know that Siah Aimians are not kandra, but the fact that they seem so similar to them, and the "Curse of Kind" mentioned by Axies, makes me think that they are basically kandra-like creatures created from some non-human species using Old Magic. The exact species of origin would be very hard to prove at this point, but I have a personal (highly speculative) theory. What if Siah Aimians are what remains of the Sho Del? This would explain their Cosmere significance and the fate of the third Yolish race which, save for Uli Da, is mysteriously absent from published Cosmere history. Here are some arguments for this theory (minor spoilers on Sho Del nature from WoBs and published Dragonsteel Prime chapters):

Spoiler

• Sho Del have close affinity for the Cognitive Realm - something they share with Siah Aimians and what makes them fit really well into the Rosharan ecosystem
• They also seem quite desperate to obtain Dragonsteel and Roshar is the only place where we've seen any potential candidate outside of Yolen (the chain from Celebrant, which must be significant somehow since it's a super-big RAFO). Also, if Dragonsteel is not a godmetal, it could be soulcasted
• Sho Del are fain creatures, part of an ecosystem hostile to other life created by Adonalsium. I would assume that makes your life quite hard outside of Yolen, which might be a part of the reason why they would want to change their nature using Old Magic (plus shapeshifting and immortality are awesome, obviously)
• Finally, after what happened to Uli Da, they might hold a grudge against Rayse and want to help fight him

 

[Karger]

I actually think that they are native and that the entire island had a specialized purpose like the purelake seems to.

[Use the Falchion]

Great theory! I have nothing really to add, but if Larkin's aren't originally from Roshar, then maybe my tinfoil theory of them being Dawnshards is still possible! 

[Havoc]

Don't forget, both types of Aimians have different colours of blood. That pretty much confirms independent origins.

[Elegy]

It's confirmed that they are not related:

Quote

Ecuadorable

I asked for a clue about Rysn or Axies, and I got this!

Brandon Sanderson

Axies is one of two races from Aimia, but they are not related.

Footnote: This refers to Dysian and Siah Aimians
Shadows of Self Boston signing (Oct. 14, 2015)

Also, the phrasing of this WOB makes it sound like the Sleepless are not originally from Roshar, because they "settled on" it rather than stayed there.

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

There are Sleepless on many planets. They have mostly settled on Roshar for various reasons.

FanX Spring 2019 (April 19, 2019)

I personally believe they are both originally from different worlds we haven't seen yet.

[quadbox]

So if we assume it's a shard world we *know about*, the candidates would be Ashyn, Braise, Obrodai, whatever on earth Vax is, or Yolen.  Plus there's one possibility we *have* seen, Threnody, given we know basically nothing about the other continent/fallen world/homeland.  Ashyn or Braise seem unlikely, the only thing we really know about obrodai is that autonomy implied their avatar is a singular female which doesnt sound sleeplessish, we know nothing at all about Vax beyond that ati knew the place, and yolen is probably out. Thoughts?

[Gilphon]

Could be. The Siah are a bigger puzzle than the Sleepless, in broad terms. The Sleepless are just insects with magically-enhanced hive mind when you get down to it; that could've evolved on any world. 

But- I feel like we've gotten a good enough look at Scadrial to rule out there, I don't think they're be able to survive travelling through Sel's cognitive realm, and they don't react weirdly to water so they don't feel Taldain-ish. And I similarly don't see them safely reaching Patji's eye in large numbers, so First of the Sun is out. So your list is a good one, if we indeed assume they're from a world we know about. 

Though- I think there's a WoB confirming that there are only three sapient races native to Yolen, and I concur that Ashyn and Briaze seem unlikely. So Vax, Obrodai and Threnody are the prime suspects. But that's a tad unsatisfying because they're also the worlds we know the least about. 

Oh- forgot about Nalthis. I don't see any reason to eliminate Nalthis as possibility. Like Warbreaker don't talk about any weird animals, but that doesn't mean they don't exist somewhere on the planet. 

[Karger]

Great theory.  Some counterpoints though.

On 2/11/2020 at 7:51 PM, Gilphon said:

whose Biome was dramatically different from both Rosharan and Ashyn, surely that island would be where they'd set them up.

They did not do this with Shinovar.  They left it attached to the Rosharan mainland.

On 2/11/2020 at 7:51 PM, Gilphon said:

And it's notable to me that Larkins don't seem to have any obvious relatives among Rosharan fauna- being able to use Stormlight as a food source is a pretty useful adaptation on Roshar; one you wouldn't think would be confined to a single species. Unless, of course, it's not a trait that evolved on Roshar. 

But what about the Greatshelled animal that lived(and possibly still lives) on Aimia and was destroyed during the island's destruction?  That is a very uniquely Rosharan trait. 

On 2/12/2020 at 1:43 PM, Eternal Khol said:

now the question is, are they refugees from another Planet or from somewhere else on Roshar

Or just refugees from Aimia itself because it is now uninhabitable. 

On 2/11/2020 at 7:51 PM, Gilphon said:

that Aimian is a distinct language family from the rest of Roshar, which is further supporting evidence.

So is Japanese in the real world iirc.  Island peoples are like that. 

On 2/11/2020 at 7:51 PM, Gilphon said:

And, more vaguely and subjectively, they just don't feel like any other lifeform on Roshar. 

But they can survive highstorms if caught in the open either by healing or scattering and hiding under rocks.

On 2/11/2020 at 7:51 PM, Gilphon said:

And, in fact, Jasnah would probably argue that those are basically the same thing; that Shards are effectively just the most powerful spren in existence. The only exception is when Aimia comes up; both sapient races and the Larkin are magical in ways that don't seem to fit into that paradigm. Aimia just feels like a place where the normal rules don't apply. Which, of course, is exactly how it would feel if it was full of alien magics.

Decent points no real counter.

[Gilphon]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

They did not do this with Shinovar.  They left it attached to the Rosharan mainland.

I don't mean to suggest that they detached Aimia; just that they took advantage of the pre-existed large island, just as they took advantage of the mountains that surround Shinovar. Indeed, I'm reasonably certain that Aimia wasn't detached, because the overall shape of the continent is still the Julia Set that Adonalsium wanted it to be. Though now you have me toying with the idea that Honor and Cultivation might've raised the mountains around Shinovar in order to isolate it. But that's any entirely different theory, if so.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

But what about the Greatshelled animal that lived(and possibly still lives) on Aimia and was destroyed during the island's destruction?  That is a very uniquely Rosharan trait. 

I acknowledge this as a reasonable counterargument. Greatshells have to be native to Roshar, because they simply couldn't survive anywhere else- without a spren bond they'd collapse under their own weight. I would suggest that that particular species was naturally endemic to the island before the Sleepless and Siah showed up, and they just learned to live with them.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

But they can survive highstorms if caught in the open either by healing or scattering and hiding under rocks.

I'm talking about the Siah here, not the Sleepless. Blue people with super malleable skin really don't feel like any other Rosharan animal to me. Whereas the Sleepless feel a lot like several Rosharans animals, but I believe that to be a conscious effort to evolve natural camouflage on their part.

[Renarin Kholin]

You make a lot of great points, but I think the linguistics are inconclusive. There are at least 135 different linguistic families on Earth that are still in use today, and barriers of water very often divide those language families. I would be more surprised if the Aimian languages were related to any languages on the mainland.

That being said, I agree that Aimians are probably not native to Roshar.

[Ascended]

Could the Siah have come from a human and a spren mingling in the cognitive realm?

Edited March 23, 2020 by Ascended

[+asmodeus]

A theory of their existence I've seen thrown around is that they are to Honor and Cultivation what Kandra are to Ruin and Harmony - an unorthodox Demi-God figure that is intricately tied to the magic/philosophy of the Shard in-question. For Honor, the Siah have blue skin, and we have a whole story about the birthing of a race of blue-skinned people. The Dysians, on the other hand, are very Cultivation-y, being able to cultivate and nurture individual creatures in their own hive to specific purposes. Maybe they are both of Cultivation, with her making one to commemorate Tanavast-Honor and one for herself.

Yes, I'm ignoring some known WoBs where Brandon has implied these two races are not native to Roshar, but unless it's explicitly called out, I'm not going to take that to mean that they are specifically alien either.

[Steel Inquisitive]

3 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

Yes, I'm ignoring some known WoBs where Brandon has implied these two races are not native to Roshar, but unless it's explicitly called out, I'm not going to take that to mean that they are specifically alien either.

I mean, Honor and Cultivation aren't exactly native to Roshar either. So it would still work:-)

[+asmodeus]

Just now, Steel Inquisitive said:

I mean, Honor and Cultivation aren't exactly native to Roshar either. So it would still work:-)

grumble grumble Okay, fine...  

[Pcheinze]

I mean I don’t think the sleepless are even native to the physical realm just that they’re more cognitive entities and have developed into what we know today. 
I don’t think that the language is solid evidence of being non-native to Roshar but Brandon does like to foreshadow stuff like that so it could be. 
Now that I think about it how does the island of Aimia exist since there’s no tectonic activity on Roshar just the high storms and since it’s detached from the mainland I don’t see it being a natural location of the high storm deposition of crem, just a thought. I like your theory.

[Criggleworth]

On 3/23/2020 at 5:22 PM, Ascended said:

Could the Siah have come from a human and a spren mingling in the cognitive realm?

Reading through this thread, that's exactly what I started thinking as well.

Their human appearance with some malleable features. They don't seem to have full shapeshifting like the kandra. 

They definitely have that cognitive connection, with their shadows pointing towards light.

There are wobs that imply that romantic relationships happened between Knights Radiant of old and their spren. It's not a stretch to think that humans and spren living in the cognitive realm would have fallen in love. But it wouldn't be all that common. Though it happened perhaps enough to establish a small group of quasi-immortal group that lived in Aimia...

Basically, I'm onboard with this theory on the origins of the Siah Aimians.

Still think that the Dysian Aimians are not from Roshar.

[teknopathetic]

People made of bugs seems SO Cultivation to me that I have to assume they originated on Roshar (or anywhere else Cultivation has meddled). Maybe they were from Braize before Odium showed up? Who knows, but Cultivation really should be involved. 

Edited April 1, 2020 by teknopathetic

[Karger]

4 hours ago, teknopathetic said:

People made of bugs seems SO Cultivation to me that I have to assume they originated on Roshar (or anywhere else Cultivation has meddled). Maybe they were from Braize before Odium showed up? Who knows, but Cultivation really should be involved. 

We don't know all the major shardworlds yet.  They could have their own.