Eternal Khol

Oaths without Honor

13 posts in this topic

     so ive noticed a couple times throughout the series(Edgedancer & Oathbringer) that the more cosmere aware people are afraid of what Surgebinders could do with their powers now that Honor isnt there to watch them.

Nale in Edgedancer: " If the bonds between men and spren are reignited, then men will naturally discover the greater power of the oaths. Without Honor to regulate this, there is a small chance that what comes next will allow the Voidbringers to again make the jump between worlds"

     im ignoring the Voidbringer part

 

Notum in Oathbringer: "But your bond is dangerous, without Honor. There will not be enough checks upon your power--you risk disaster"

 

I wonder what theyre so afraid of?

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In general, the fact is that the Ideals are far more flexible than people might think so it's entirely possible for Radiants to fundamentally disagree over even the same set of Ideals, or over the meaning of the First Ideal. Think of the various permutations that Isaac Asimov went through in exploring how the three Laws of Robotics could drive conflict and the implications of the Zeroth Law and you've got the idea for how that can work in Stormlight Archive. Brandon's even called out the last point, as Elsecallers are an Order capable of interpreting the First Ideal as applying to the species as a whole, not to any individual.

As for why somebody would be worried about Surgebinding, consider that Ashyn was ruined by humans using a local version of magic that manipulates the same force as Surgebinding does, which implies that similarly bad things could happen on Roshar under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

That said, the two specific parties you're looking at are worrying about different things. Nale was specifically worried that Surgebinding could lead to the Fused finding a way to return. Bear in mind that for all he knows that we do not, he is literally insane and Brandon was quite explicit that we can't trust anything they say. The spren seem more worried about the general dangers that humans could cause if they're not kept in check and they too aren't entirely unbiased, albeit with good reason. We don't know that they know about Ashyn, more likely they're just of the 'We can't fully trust humans any more' mindset rather than being worried about anything specifically apocalyptic.

Edited by Weltall
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31 minutes ago, Weltall said:

In general, the fact is that the Ideals are far more flexible than people might think so it's entirely possible for Radiants to fundamentally disagree over even the same set of Ideals, or over the meaning of the First Ideal. Think of the various permutations that Isaac Asimov went through in exploring how the three Laws of Robotics could drive conflict and the implications of the Zeroth Law and you've got the idea for how that can work in Stormlight Archive. Brandon's even called out the last point, as Elsecallers are an Order capable of interpreting the First Ideal as applying to the species as a whole, not to any individual.

As for why somebody would be worried about Surgebinding, consider that Ashyn was ruined by humans using a local version of magic that manipulates the same force as Surgebinding does, which implies that similarly bad things could happen on Roshar under the right (or wrong) circumstances.

That said, the two specific parties you're looking at are worrying about different things. Nale was specifically worried that Surgebinding could lead to the Fused finding a way to return. Bear in mind that for all he knows that we do not, he is literally insane and Brandon was quite explicit that we can't trust anything they say. The spren seem more worried about the general dangers that humans could cause if they're not kept in check and they too aren't entirely unbiased, albeit with good reason. We don't know that they know about Ashyn, more likely they're just of the 'We can't fully trust humans any more' mindset rather than being worried about anything specifically apocalyptic.

i know most of this but what i dont understand is why without Honor they are afraid of it happening. 

was Honor somehow limiting surbindings power? and without him guiding the power, humans could cause a cataclysm worse than ashyn?

or is it just that without Honor, humans are capable of accessing more of that investiture and not knowing how to wield it properly and pulling another Ashyn... or worse.

 

i know Nale is mad but there is still truth to be had from the ravings of a mad man.

Edited by Eternal Khol
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Sooo, in light of this topic, and Nale's specific statement there about Worldhopping, how do we feel about the RoW opening scene?

 

9 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

i know most of this but what i dont understand is why without Honor they are afraid of it happening. 

was Honor somehow limiting surbindings power? and without him guiding the power, humans could cause a cataclysm worse than ashyn?

or is it just that without Honor, humans are capable of accessing more of that investiture and not knowing how to wield it properly and pulling another Ashyn

 

i know Nale is mad but there is still truth to be had from the ravings of a mad man.

Well, we know Two ways Honor was limiting things before he died. 

At the time he was providing a direct Stormlight supply to the Heralds, which if Im not mistaken is gone now.

But more critically, the spren all seemed to Listen to him.  The Oathagates for example no longer allow humans to access Shadesmar simply because Honor said so once upon a time, and I would entirely expect his opinion on any given topic to have carried a huge amount of weight with the spren themselves.  That kind of unifying Force would go a long way to Standardizing the various sprens' interpretations of the Ideals, and he'd have been there to Intervene if any single spren went too rogue/Outside-the-box with their own interpretation.  But without that Unity, the various spren races are at war with each other, at least some seem more willing to server Odium that trust Radiant's again, and theoretically any mad interpretation of an Order's Ideals will fly with only that one spren needing to agree.  

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8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Sooo, in light of this topic, and Nale's specific statement there about Worldhopping, how do we feel about the RoW opening scene?

 

Well, we know Two ways Honor was limiting things before he died. 

At the time he was providing a direct Stormlight supply to the Heralds, which if Im not mistaken is gone now.

But more critically, the spren all seemed to Listen to him.  The Oathagates for example no longer allow humans to access Shadesmar simply because Honor said so once upon a time, and I would entirely expect his opinion on any given topic to have carried a huge amount of weight with the spren themselves.  That kind of unifying Force would go a long way to Standardizing the various sprens' interpretations of the Ideals, and he'd have been there to Intervene if any single spren went too rogue/Outside-the-box with their own interpretation.  But without that Unity, the various spren races are at war with each other, at least some seem more willing to server Odium that trust Radiant's again, and theoretically any mad interpretation of an Order's Ideals will fly with only that one spren needing to agree.  

Honor directly powering the Honorblades inst a limiter. Honors death was a limiter to the Honorblades since they could no longer have a never ending source of investiture or at least a never ending source as long as he allowed it

 

i didnt even think of the spren listening to him though. good point

Edited by Eternal Khol
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4 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Honor directly powering the Honorblades inst a limiter. Honors death was a limiter to the Honorblades since they could no longer have a never ending source of investiture or at least a never ending source as long as he allowed it

 

i didnt even think of the spren listening to him though. good point

It's the "as long as he allows it" part that I was looking to as the limiter.

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17 minutes ago, Quantus said:

It's the "as long as he allows it" part that I was looking to as the limiter.

as Pattern would put it 

"Mmm..."

 

totally rando question that popped into my head, but do you think Honor and Cultivation were still romantically involved after ascension and until he died?

 

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18 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

Honor and Cultivation were still romantically involved after ascension and until he died?

Very likely. Cultivation helped him with the whole Odium thing somehow, someway, and was close enough to learn from Honor's death.

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26 minutes ago, Invocation said:

Very likely. Cultivation helped him with the whole Odium thing somehow, someway, and was close enough to learn from Honor's death.

I can’t grasp the concept of a Shard actually loving something/someone. 

I understand it, but I dont

Like with Vin, after she ascended, she still loved elend, but it was different. She was only Preservation for a short period of time too. She was still capable of love but how she processed it changed 

I don’t know why but the concept of a Shard loving just seems so foreign.

Edited by Eternal Khol
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1 hour ago, Eternal Khol said:

as Pattern would put it 

"Mmm..."

 

totally rando question that popped into my head, but do you think Honor and Cultivation were still romantically involved after ascension and until he died?

 

Sooo, this is just a personal Tinfoil theory, but I think it was...Complicated at the end there.  I think that Hoid's story of Queen Tsa is hinting that Tanavast's wife gave her temporarily Shard to a mortal for a time, and a result of that was a Child, and also a circumstance that Tanavast interpreted as himself violating an Oath.  I think that's what drove him crazy at the end, and what shook his confidence in himself and the Radiants. But there's not a whole lot to support it other than a suspicion color coding during the story (and the fact that it came from Hoid).

18 minutes ago, Eternal Khol said:

I can’t grasp the concept of a Shard actually loving something/someone. 

I understand it, but I dont

Like with Vin, after she ascended, she still loved elend, but it was different. She was only Preservation for a short period of time too. She was still capable of love but how she processed it changed 

I don’t know why but the concept of a Shard loving just seems so foreign.

Now imagine you are BOTH shards and have together Invested in a single planet so much that your Essences are intricately entangled, to the point that you've birthed entire races of spren with your commingled Essence...

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2 hours ago, Quantus said:

At the time he was providing a direct Stormlight supply to the Heralds, which if Im not mistaken is gone now.

Juries are still out.  Only Taln follows the oathpact and he is missing his blade.

1 hour ago, Eternal Khol said:

totally rando question that popped into my head, but do you think Honor and Cultivation were still romantically involved after ascension and until he died?

I think Honor might take being broken up with super badly. 

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27 minutes ago, Quantus said:

 Now imagine you are BOTH shards and have together Invested in a single planet so much that your Essences are intricately entangled, to the point that you've birthed entire races of spren with your commingled Essence...

Omg. Brandon has repeatedly said that the creations of shards are pretty much their children but this just put it into perspective for me.

Their love created the Roshar we know today:wub:

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The Honorblades we don't really know much about. We know that the 10 heartbeats doesn't apply to them and only people believing in it caused the delayed summoning. It might be that the Honorblades direct access to Honor's Investiture is also something you need to know about in order to access it. It could also be accessed via a more complicated mechanism. It may also, as you speculated, have been connected to the Oathpact, breaking which resulted in this perk no longer being available.

I think Honor, as the Shard of limitations, bindings & oaths could do more than just command spren to do things. But I think that the spren listening to him is just a spren thing. They state multiple times that they (spren) can't break theirs oaths, unlike humans.

 

Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Hey! Preservation and Ruin literally created Scadrial! Preservation wanted to have kids too! 

 

Edited by Honorless
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