Dual wielding magic systems?

[Staenbridge]

I was wondering about this on my most recent read-through of Warbreaker & SA, because in Mistborn Era 2 we've seen that combining Feruchemy and Allomancy produces some really neat things; I wonder if we have received any confirmation about how other magic systems might interact. Also Hoid is living out his inner Ash Ketchum with Shardic powers so it's going to come up in the future.

So yeah, Awakening and Surgebinding.

Returned are, according to the coppermind wiki, Cognitive Shadows, however, as shown by Nale becoming a full Skybreaker, that doesn't exactly stop the Nahel bond from forming. Which raises a question: can a Returned become a Surgebinder? If they were to do so, would the different forms of Investiture combine, to allow them to go out into a highstorm with some bright clothes and start mass-Awakening big things? On the other side of things, if one were to create coloured illusions via Lightweaving, could this be used as a source of colour for Awakening? Speaking of Returned, could Type IV BioChromatic Entities become Surgebinders (imagine Nightblood the Windrunner, with its spren taking on the form of a person wielding the sword...)?

Going the other way, could a Surgebinder Return? How would that affect the Nahel bond? Would their death cause it to break, and then they would have to spend time reforming it and reswearing the Ideals? Would the newly-Returned even remember their spren? 

Assuming that it can happen, we're presented with a number of interesting implications. If we fast forward to the more interconnected Cosmere which is coming in later Mistborn eras, it would be really cool to see artists try to desperately acquire a large number of Breaths and a Cryptic or Truthwatcher spren in order to become a better artist. Returned have a headstart by being propelled up into the 5th Heightening straight away, with all of the cool art appreciation features that come with that; a Returned with access to Lightweaving could conceivably create illusion-based 3D artwork with all of the depth and complexity that only another massively Invested Nalthian (or perhaps a Tin savant / relevant Feruchemist?) could appreciate. Add in SoulForging and you've got a seriously upmarket art installation. 

On the topic of SoulForging, if you spent time on Nalthis and Roshar, could a Forger rewrite your spiritweb to make it so that you became a Surgebinder or Returned? Or an Allomancer/Feruchemist based on a life spent on Scadrial? How would that work?

Edited February 9, 2020 by Staenbridge

[Karger]

Welcome!

3 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

I wonder if we have received any confirmation about how other magic systems might interact

We have a bunch.  Check out the arcanum.

3 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

Which raises a question: can a Returned become a Surgebinder

Yes.  Szeth sort of is a returned by some definitions..  A spren can choose basically anything to bond.

3 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

Going the other way, could a Surgebinder Return

Anyone who Endowment wants to return can return. 

3 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

How would that affect the Nahel bond?

I think it would break it by Nale's claim here points to it breaking.

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“You did, and you died. Your bond to your Blade severed, all ties—both spiritual and physical—undone. You are reborn. Come along. It is time to visit your people. Your training begins immediately.” Nin began to walk away, revealing that the thing he held behind his back was a sheathed sword.

4 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

and then they would have to spend time reforming it and reswearing the Ideals? Would the newly-Returned even remember their spren? 

 Yes if they wanted the bond back and maybe not.

4 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

could a Forger rewrite your spiritweb to make it so that you became a Surgebinder

Probably similar rules to trying to get a shardblade with it.  This is not going to work very well.  Making a sapient being with forgery is not practical so what you would be doing is essentially stealing one or forcing one to bond you.  In either case the spren will almost certainly not be happy.

4 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

or Returned? Or an Allomancer/Feruchemist based on a life spent on Scadrial? How would that work?

All of these are very difficult for various reasons.  They might be theoretically possible but for a returned you would need to do some serious work and even then I kind of doubt you will get more then the asthetics kind of like if you try and make yourself and elantrain.  I don't think changing ancestry is practical through forgery so making an allomancer is not going to fly.  Same with Feruchemist.

[Weltall]

Welcome to the Shard!

5 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

Returned are, according to the coppermind wiki, Cognitive Shadows, however, as shown by Nale becoming a full Skybreaker, that doesn't exactly stop the Nahel bond from forming. Which raises a question: can a Returned become a Surgebinder? If they were to do so, would the different forms of Investiture combine, to allow them to go out into a highstorm with some bright clothes and start mass-Awakening big things?

You don't even need to be a Returned to do this in theory; if you were an Awakener and figured out how to hack the systems to power Awakening with Stormlight (and then gained Surgebinding so you could make effective use of a highstorm's Investiture) then you could theoretically do some absolutely insane things, like we see at the end of Oathbringer when Dalinar's actions supercharge Surgebinding for a short time. That said, there are probably limitations that you'd need to figure out how to work around since Stormlight is distinctly 'leaky' while Breaths are 'sticky'... and you'd need to figure out how to hack the systems in the first place. Vasher hasn't figured out how to do it yet and he's had a lot of time to try.

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On the other side of things, if one were to create coloured illusions via Lightweaving, could this be used as a source of colour for Awakening? Speaking of Returned, could Type IV BioChromatic Entities become Surgebinders (imagine Nightblood the Windrunner, with its spren taking on the form of a person wielding the sword...)?

No to the first because Awakening drains the pigments and you can't drain projected color. Nightblood bonding a spren has been described as 'farfetched' so a Type IV Entity forming a Nahel Bond isn't likely. We know that Splinters behave differently from sapient beings who aren't made of pure Investiture when it comes to things like Ascension so other interactions between something like Nightblood and magic systems would be similarly unlikely to work, but it depends on the specifics.

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Going the other way, could a Surgebinder Return?

Brandon has said that it would be very difficult for a non-Nalthian to Return, which probably has to do with the individual needing a certain level of Connection to Endowment. A native Nalthian who became a Surgebinder? Sure. A non-native would probably have to to something special, probably involving some Connection hacking.

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Returned have a headstart by being propelled up into the 5th Heightening straight away, with all of the cool art appreciation features that come with that; a Returned with access to Lightweaving could conceivably create illusion-based 3D artwork with all of the depth and complexity that only another massively Invested Nalthian (or perhaps a Tin savant / relevant Feruchemist?) could appreciate. Add in SoulForging and you've got a seriously upmarket art installation.

I like it! I imagine we might see some pretty crazy shenanigans in Silverlight where people from all over the Cosmere live together and Brandon likes throwing little worldbuilding elements like this into his works (case in point: the market in Celebrant).

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 On the topic of SoulForging, if you spent time on Nalthis and Roshar, could a Forger rewrite your spiritweb to make it so that you became a Surgebinder or Returned? Or an Allomancer/Feruchemist based on a life spent on Scadrial? How would that work?

As mentioned, this sort of Forgery is very very difficult to the point that it's functionally impossible. The first involves creating a sapient chunk of Investiture and not only that but a very particular type, then writing an entire history for it and altering your own. Brandon has mentioned that in theory this could be done but it would require way more Investiture than a Forger could possibly get their hands on. Speaking broadly, Surgebinding is a magic system that you simply can't cheat your way into because of how the Nahel Bond works.

In the latter case, the fact that you would have to rewrite your history to die is a major stumbling block, since Forgery can actually kill you and the Investiture that a Forger can call on isn't sufficient to stop you from passing Beyond. Then there's the same general limitation on Investiture because a Divine Breath represents a substantial chunk of Investiture.

[The Cardinal of Death]

the light weaving used to fuel awakening would be interesting if it worked there is one WoB saying if you shined a colored light on a wall and used it as fuel for awakening it would leech the light bulb not sure how that would apply to a light weaving though if it does at all although this heavily depends on what kind of lightbulb your using your most likely just going to drain color from the source of the light your controlling if it did work 

 

NotarySojac

If you shine a red light on a white wall, could you use the color from that to Awaken?

Brandon Sanderson

Ooh, good question! I would say you would end up leeching the color out of the lightbulb that you were shining through.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

[Staenbridge]

On 09/02/2020 at 6:30 PM, Karger said:

Welcome!

Thanks! I have a bad habit of lurking for years in case I make a misstep without realizing. 

On 09/02/2020 at 6:30 PM, Karger said:

We have a bunch.  Check out the arcanum.

I must admit, I had seen some already, especially regarding Vasher, but it's very pleasing to hear that someone else has done all of the heavy lifting and gotten answers for these questions. 

On 09/02/2020 at 6:30 PM, Karger said:

Yes.  Szeth sort of is a returned by some definitions..  A spren can choose basically anything to bond.

Huh, that's... interesting. It seems I really don't remember what Cognitive Shadows are, then. I assumed that Szeth wouldn't count because of the method by which his soul got dragged back into his body, but having checked the wiki it seems I underestimated how broad the definition is. 

 

On 09/02/2020 at 6:30 PM, Karger said:

I don't think changing ancestry is practical through forgery so making an allomancer is not going to fly.  Same with Feruchemist.

My reasoning behind this was that it doesn't seem like it would be as large a change as some of the ones we see in TES, if one were (for example) born as a non-mistborn member of a family with a very strong history of Mistborn and Mistings; your spiritweb would have been in close contact with many closely related Mistborn, and in terms of a 'difference', it's a small change to imagine that the genetics went by chance the other way. Do you think that's a poor analysis of it? 

 

On 09/02/2020 at 8:24 PM, Weltall said:

Speaking broadly, Surgebinding is a magic system that you simply can't cheat your way into because of how the Nahel Bond works.

This seems to apply to a lot of other magic systems — it's really difficult to get into unless you're from the culture or planet where it originates from.

I wonder how much of that is just Brandon's meta-level storybuilding so that we do not have tonnes of magic systems crossing over except in noteworthy characters — if a character is a Surgebinding Elantrian, or a SoulForging Awakener (wow that would be quite the combo...), then it would be so powerful that they would be hilariously overpowered from a narrative perspective through that alone; however, if it is a main character and they are unique, it suddenly justifies otherwise large levels of plot armour. 

[Karger]

20 minutes ago, Staenbridge said:

Do you think that's a poor analysis of it?

No that sounds much more probable since as a scadrain you will already have some latent investature or preservation.

[Weltall]

4 hours ago, Staenbridge said:

Thanks! I have a bad habit of lurking for years in case I make a misstep without realizing.

Oh, I wouldn't worry too much about that. Pretty much everyone here who's asked a question or posted a theory has at some point or another overlooked something from the books or some Word of Brandon that either answers the question, proves the theory right or at least partially throws it into question. Comes with the territory when the fanbase gets so invested and so very good at asking questions... and of course when the author is so open and willing to answer them. Even if half the time the answer is Read And Find Out.

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This seems to apply to a lot of other magic systems — it's really difficult to get into unless you're from the culture or planet where it originates from.

Less than you might think. Magic from Sel is the one really tricky case because it's literally tied to geopolitical regions of the planet but other systems have ways of cheating your way into them. BioChroma's the easiest since anyone can receive Breath, it's literally a purchasable commodity and Nalthis is easy to reach for worldhoppers and makes things easy for them. Hemalurgy is also literally universal; all you need is the right metal, the Intent to create a spike and knowledge of where to place it. Once you have the requisite knowledge things could get... interesting. Lerasium can make anybody a mistborn regardless of origin and unsealed metalminds can grant allomantic and feruchemical powers to anyone. Those can theoretically be used to give anyone access to other magics as well, though we'd need to learn more about how the medallions are created and function to really understand the potential. So aside from the one region-locked example, most magic systems can be gotten at even if you're not from the right planet or cultural subset.

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I wonder how much of that is just Brandon's meta-level storybuilding so that we do not have tonnes of magic systems crossing over except in noteworthy characters — if a character is a Surgebinding Elantrian, or a SoulForging Awakener (wow that would be quite the combo...), then it would be so powerful that they would be hilariously overpowered from a narrative perspective through that alone; however, if it is a main character and they are unique, it suddenly justifies otherwise large levels of plot armour. 

I'd be more worried about a Forger with access to A-Gold and/or A-Malatium...

But to be Doylist I expect that the biggest reason we don't see massive magic crossover is because a story is far more interesting when we're given a smaller number of magics to see in action and come to understand, which also allows Brandon to really explore the potential of that magic on its own. Looking at the two Eras of Mistborn at present is illustrative; in Era 1 we learned how the Metallic Arts function on their own and got some hints at how they could work together. Era 2 starts to show this off by explaining Compounding and using the Twinborn to show what allomancy and feruchemy can do together. There's also the concept of the Resonance (which Surgebinders also have) which is all about what happens when a small number of powers interact, but which won't appear if a character has too many magics.

Lots of crossover would be overwhelming at this point since we're still learning how most of the magics work and I imagine that even in MB Era 4 it's not going to be a huge deal, though by then we'll already have been introduced to all the basics so if he cuts loose a bit and gives us some crazy combinations we'll have the necessary background to understand the implications and appreciate how storming awesome they are. And since Hoid is going to be one of the main characters there... xD

[Staenbridge]

On 12/02/2020 at 5:29 AM, Weltall said:

Even if half the time the answer is Read And Find Out.

Somehow Brandon manages to hold his cards close to his chest, and also give us so much information…

On 12/02/2020 at 5:29 AM, Weltall said:

Lerasium can make anybody a mistborn regardless of origin and unsealed metalminds can grant allomantic and feruchemical powers to anyone

Unless I'm mistaken, Lerasium is practically impossible to get now that Leras has come down with a severe case of Ruin, so Mistborn is now difficult. Still, I'd forgotten about how easy it's going to be to get unsealed and unkeyed metalminds in the future — make unsealed metalminds which grant the power to make more unsealed metalminds, and you can flood the cross-cosmere market, right? Provided that you have enough Excisors and the raw nicrosil for it, of course. 

 

On 12/02/2020 at 5:29 AM, Weltall said:

There's also the concept of the Resonance (which Surgebinders also have)

Actually, Knowledgeable One, while you're here, something has always bugged me about the distribution of powers within the Knights Radiant. The 10 orders of higher spren all have a nice pairing of surges going on, forming that very Vorin ring shape. However, honorspren and exclusively honorspren are described in the SA books as being created by and parts of Honor. Which begs the question: why do they fit in with the rest of the higher spren? They seem to be unique in that they are Splinters of Honor, where the other Nahel Bond spren are in some way different, and yet it's just like they complete the cycle and fit in as one of many spren. Oathbringer is basically chock-a-block with references to 9 types of Odium creations and spren, so my tentative hypothesis which I am 100% making up as I write this would be that Rosharan magic is organized into multiples of 3 (3 Shards, leading to 3 systems, each with 9 facets), like how Scadrial is base 16, and the 10th type of 'normal' Honor-ific spren is effectively Honor 'interfering' and creating an extra type of spren for his magic system. 

Am I just overthinking it?

[Weltall]

36 minutes ago, Staenbridge said:

However, honorspren and exclusively honorspren are described in the SA books as being created by and parts of Honor. Which begs the question: why do they fit in with the rest of the higher spren? They seem to be unique in that they are Splinters of Honor, where the other Nahel Bond spren are in some way different, and yet it's just like they complete the cycle and fit in as one of many spren.

All of the spren are a mix of Honor and Cultivation's Investiture, with some being closer to one or the other and seeing themselves as being more 'pure' Honor or Cultivation. We know that all Shardblades (which are the Physical bodies of these spren) are an alloy of Tanavastium and whatever Cultivation's metal is called so even the ones on the far ends of the bell curve still have some of the other Shard's Investiture in them. Basically, the whole 'Honorspren' thing is more a matter of their perception of their relationship to Honor than an indication that they're exclusively formed of Honor-flavored Investiture.

As for the number nine, that's because significant numbers in the Cosmere are associated with planets and Braize where Odium has settled is nine-centric compared to the rest of the Rosharan System which is ten-centric. It doesn't mean there's anything inherently special about the number nine on Roshar, it's just how the number Odium has become associated with interacts within the existing system.

Now it's possible all of this in some way represented a plan by Adonalsium before the Shattering (we know that Frost is right, at least insofar as the Rosharan System was made by Adonalsium for a specific purpose) but trying to work out the four-dimensional tri-Realmic mechanics of Adonalsium's Master Plan, assuming he had one, is at this point an exercise in madness.