Question About Compounding! (minor spoilers for Mistborn 2nd era)

[ILIYA]

Hello All

I was wondering what would happen if let's say I was a twinborn from Pewter allomancy and gold feruchemey. Would I be able to burn Pewter to increase my strength and then use that strength to fill my gold metal minds? Pretty much cheating and using the health granted to me by pewter instead of my own health to fill my gold metal minds. Essentially gaining all the benefits that a gold compounder would get but better in some ways as I do not have to burn any gold doing this. Though filling my metal minds would take longer. 

Or is that not possible at all and I cannot draw on the power of pewter to fill my metal mind and doing this will just draw on my own power to fill the mind which means I'll still be weak physically while the minds are filling though maybe not as weak as usual since I'm burning pewter but overall my feruchemy is still net-zero and I won't be able to be immortal or fill extreme amounts of health using pewter. 

I've listened to graphic audiobooks for all Mistborn main series and side stories so don't worry about spoilers. Sorry if the formatting of tags and the title is off, I'm new here and plan to be active way more once I finish the rest of the cosmere stories (only Emperor's soul, white sand and Arcanum stories left). It's just this question was left on my mind.  

[RShara]

Pewter would keep you healthier while you stored health, so you'd be able to store a bit more without feeling too sick. But it's not a huge amount.

[GoWibble]

Welcome to the Shard! 

Nice to get right in with a question. 

I just want to point out that Pewter has both the effect of healing faster, but I'm not sure that this is actually healing you. It might just be a side effect of having a stronger immune system. Filling a metalmind might stop this effect to fill it, or it might not fill. that is an interesting hack, if it works

[Weltall]

Pewter primarily boosts strength and reflexes, with faster healing being an added effect. It would help while storing in F-Gold but it wouldn't be anything akin to compounding.

[+Harrycrapper]

I doubt you could use it to directly store more health, but you might be able to use it to better deal with the side effects of storing health. 

[Elsecaller_17.5]

I really like this. It wouldn't lead to a compounding like effect but could lead to drastically increased stores of health. We know from Wayne (and kinda Steel Inquisitors) that the normal way to store health is either to store none or store a lot, to the point of your confined to your bed. This would probably allow you to store a little all the time, much as Wax walks around at 90% weight.

[Rorzikel]

The strength and dexterity would also let you store greater amounts of health without being bedridden, you could rely on it to still be somewhat active in your life.

Durability would prevent injury or risk of infection from a cut as well.

[Quantus]

On 2/5/2020 at 10:24 AM, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I really like this. It wouldn't lead to a compounding like effect but could lead to drastically increased stores of health. We know from Wayne (and kinda Steel Inquisitors) that the normal way to store health is either to store none or store a lot, to the point of your confined to your bed. This would probably allow you to store a little all the time, much as Wax walks around at 90% weight.

True, but the downside of that is that maintaining a low-level burn like that is going to lead to Savantism. 

[StanLemon]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

True, but the downside of that is that maintaining a low-level burn like that is going to lead to Savantism. 

It wouldn't stop the problems of being a Savant, but F-Gold would go a long way to mitigating it

[Raphaborn]

1 hour ago, StanLemon said:

It wouldn't stop the problems of being a Savant, but F-Gold would go a long way to mitigating it

Savantism requires that the metal be flared for a long time.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

True, but the downside of that is that maintaining a low-level burn like that is going to lead to Savantism. 

It would, and even though pewter is relatively cheap you probably wrack up a really high bill buying all would need.

[Dancer]

2 hours ago, Raphaborn said:

Savantism requires that the metal be flared for a long time.

not necessarily. Savantism's only requirement is constant use of Investiture over a long period of time. If you were to burn metal at a low burn constantly for years you would become a savant. This is why Wax is close to being a Savant. He has been burning steel at a very regular basis over a number of years.    

Quote

 

Questioner

So I have a question about Savants. Could you only get there by flaring, or if you burn it for a long period of time or like duralumin--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, you can get there other ways.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Dancer

[Raphaborn]

2 minutes ago, Dancer said:

not necessarily. Savantism's only requirement is constant use of Investiture over a long period of time. If you were to burn metal at a low burn constantly for years you would become a savant. This is why Wax is close to being a Savant. He has been burning steel at a very regular basis over a number of years.    

Wow, whoever asked him that question is very smart. It is probably possible to become Savant in a single day with the help of Duralumin. With Nicrosil you could sell Savantism to someone else.

[Hoidonalsium]

The magic systems, and the way investiture fuels them is key to understanding exactly why this doesn't quite work. 

Pewter grants strength and resiliance which, at a microscopic biological level, fortifies your immune system and the bodily functions that repair injuries. You can't siphon that off as health, however, as the investiture is not keyed, or shaped, to that form.

Metal is not power itself, it is just a gateway to the power of the shard. (Personally I think of it like one of those Play-Doh extruders that makes shapes of the dough.) Metal, when burned, extrudes power in a certain shape. Pewter (say, star shaped for the metaphor) gives strength, but change the burned metal to tin (crescent moon shaped) and you get enhanced senses. Each metal has its own extrusion shape. (note that the metal doesn't actually do the extruding... Either you pull the power to you, or you allow the power to be released, consuming the metal as a portal/catalyst - if you think of the Aons from Elantris, the same thing hapens with the correct "shapes"/symbols allowing the D'or through in different forms). 

When you Invest metalminds with Feruchemical power, you recode the metals to an entirely new set of "shapes", again each metal having a different one. Burning the metal then allows you to extrude Feruchemical power rather than Allomantic power.

The gained power flows into you, and you can then divert it to fill another metalmind, or use it directly.

As Allomantic and Feruchemical Pewter-power is a different "shape" to Gold-power, you can't just fill a goldmind with it.

As others have noted, Pewter-strength would fortify your body so you're more resilient to the sickness created by storing health - but there would still be an, admittedly way higher than usual, cap on how much health you can store at a time (say, 60% storage rather than 30%).

Savantism gained by a constant low burn wouldn't be nearly as dangerous as if it were achieved through regular flaring. The big danger in Pewter savantism isn't the power itself, it's that the power lets you ignore things that would otherwise incapacitate you. If this is a fatal injury/sickness, you'll still die - you'll just keep going right up to the point where you keel over. With a constant low burn, the more life-threatening issues will be more easily identified and treated.

You would probably need to keep an eye on how much pewter you were burning, though, as I imagine it would be easy for a low-burn to gradually become a mid-burn without really noticing.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Hoidonalsium said:

The magic systems, and the way investiture fuels them is key to understanding exactly why this doesn't quite work. 

Pewter grants strength and resiliance which, at a microscopic biological level, fortifies your immune system and the bodily functions that repair injuries. You can't siphon that off as health, however, as the investiture is not keyed, or shaped, to that form.

Metal is not power itself, it is just a gateway to the power of the shard. (Personally I think of it like one of those Play-Doh extruders that makes shapes of the dough.) Metal, when burned, extrudes power in a certain shape. Pewter (say, star shaped for the metaphor) gives strength, but change the burned metal to tin (crescent moon shaped) and you get enhanced senses. Each metal has its own extrusion shape. (note that the metal doesn't actually do the extruding... Either you pull the power to you, or you allow the power to be released, consuming the metal as a portal/catalyst - if you think of the Aons from Elantris, the same thing hapens with the correct "shapes"/symbols allowing the D'or through in different forms). 

When you Invest metalminds with Feruchemical power, you recode the metals to an entirely new set of "shapes", again each metal having a different one. Burning the metal then allows you to extrude Feruchemical power rather than Allomantic power.

The gained power flows into you, and you can then divert it to fill another metalmind, or use it directly.

As Allomantic and Feruchemical Pewter-power is a different "shape" to Gold-power, you can't just fill a goldmind with it.

As others have noted, Pewter-strength would fortify your body so you're more resilient to the sickness created by storing health - but there would still be an, admittedly way higher than usual, cap on how much health you can store at a time (say, 60% storage rather than 30%).

Savantism gained by a constant low burn wouldn't be nearly as dangerous as if it were achieved through regular flaring. The big danger in Pewter savantism isn't the power itself, it's that the power lets you ignore things that would otherwise incapacitate you. If this is a fatal injury/sickness, you'll still die - you'll just keep going right up to the point where you keel over. With a constant low burn, the more life-threatening issues will be more easily identified and treated.

You would probably need to keep an eye on how much pewter you were burning, though, as I imagine it would be easy for a low-burn to gradually become a mid-burn without really noticing.

i think there might be some confusion, though if I misunderstood, I apologize in advance. Pewter very much provides healing, just you are not going to heal in seconds, or regrow a limb. I liken it to captain america versus wolverine. Cap (as well as Spider-man, and etc) all have healing factors. They get stabbed and grievously wounded and they will be down for a time, but they heal far faster than us puny mortals. Characters like wolverine, or the hulk on the other hand, get run through or limbs chopped off and they are regenerated in seconds. Both Trilogies (Era 1 and 2) mention specifically accelerated healing, as well as WoB that I will post below. Now having said that, I think where the confusion comes in is the mention of compounding. I agree, someone with A-pewter and F-gold will not be able to compound and they would get far more out of A-gold and F-gold. However, burning pewter should counter the effects of storing F-gold not only because of "resilience" but also because of the increased healing capabilities of pewter. This should allow someone to burn pewter and store without any ill effects. Another WoB I will post below references Brandon confirming that you could burn pewter, and store the increased strength into a pewter mind, just that compouding instead would get you far more, far faster. So you should be able to burn pewter, and store the extra strength, speed, and healing in a pewter mind, a steel mind, and a gold mind without any problems to your day to day life. Just you will not get anywhere near what you would get from compounding. 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Burning metals by instinct, by the way, is something I had to add to the book for scenes like this. I had to be able to have characters be able to heal quickly–in a relative sort of way–so that I could keep the pacing where I wanted it. That meant long term, quick healing, if that makes any sense. I made it possible for an Allomancer's body to use metals–particularly pewter and tin–when they needed them.

Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations (Nov. 29, 2006)

 

 

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

[Hoidonalsium]

42 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

i think there might be some confusion, though if I misunderstood, I apologize in advance. Pewter very much provides healing, just you are not going to heal in seconds, or regrow a limb. I liken it to captain america versus wolverine. Cap (as well as Spider-man, and etc) all have healing factors. They get stabbed and grievously wounded and they will be down for a time, but they heal far faster than us puny mortals. Characters like wolverine, or the hulk on the other hand, get run through or limbs chopped off and they are regenerated in seconds. Both Trilogies (Era 1 and 2) mention specifically accelerated healing, as well as WoB that I will post below. Now having said that, I think where the confusion comes in is the mention of compounding. I agree, someone with A-pewter and F-gold will not be able to compound and they would get far more out of A-gold and F-gold. However, burning pewter should counter the effects of storing F-gold not only because of "resilience" but also because of the increased healing capabilities of pewter. This should allow someone to burn pewter and store without any ill effects. Another WoB I will post below references Brandon confirming that you could burn pewter, and store the increased strength into a pewter mind, just that compouding instead would get you far more, far faster. So you should be able to burn pewter, and store the extra strength, speed, and healing in a pewter mind, a steel mind, and a gold mind without any problems to your day to day life. Just you will not get anywhere near what you would get from compounding. 

 

Brandon Sanderson

Burning metals by instinct, by the way, is something I had to add to the book for scenes like this. I had to be able to have characters be able to heal quickly–in a relative sort of way–so that I could keep the pacing where I wanted it. That meant long term, quick healing, if that makes any sense. I made it possible for an Allomancer's body to use metals–particularly pewter and tin–when they needed them.

Mistborn: The Final Empire Annotations (Nov. 29, 2006)

 

 

Sandastron

I’m very curious about pewter. How much Feruchemical pewter, steel, and gold would you have to take in in order to be equal to burning pewter and flaring.

Brandon Sanderson

Oh…um, okay. So you wanna...ok, let’s back this up. So you wanna know feruchemically what would it take to match burning?

Sandastron

Yes.

Brandon Sanderson

Okay. So burning pewter, I kind of imagine...roughly doubling. Roughly.

Sandastron

Double your strength?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But without the muscle mass change, it’s a magical boost. So because of that it has some pretty dramatic effects, like when Vin jumps and things like that.

Sandastron

So it’s only a double, so would flaring it bring it any higher?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. Flaring would go higher.

Sandastron

Would it be like triple?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe like triple.

Sandastron

Maybe like tripling...that’s fascinating. So I always thought normal burning would triple it and flaring would quadruple.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah I always felt kind of double. You won’t see people burning pewter and lifting a car.

Sandastron

Right, exactly.

Brandon Sanderson

You see people burning pewter and delivering a really solid punch.

Sandastron

Gotcha, thank you. That is fascinating…and would it be about doubling speed and healing ability?

Brandon Sanderson

I haven’t worked out the numbers on that exactly. I have an instinct that says thatburning pewter, healing goes a bit faster but I have to look in the books and see what we’ve done in the past and then kind of canonize it.

Calamity Philadelphia signing (Feb. 20, 2016)

 

 

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Allomantic pewter strength can be stored in a metalmind, but it's probably easier to just Compound.

Alloy of Law 17th Shard Q&A (Nov. 5, 2011)

I may be wrong in my interpretation (and feel free to disprove me), but I had always assumed that F-Gold was direct investiture-based healing (the magic being the thing that actually knit wounds, replaced blood, or repaired damage by magically creating the required matter).

Whereas A-Pewter enhances the natural bodily healing, by way of fortifying the body. Muscular strength and resiliance against fatigue, or the cold, etc, is the most obvious result - but the strengthening is universal and cellular, so the white blood cells, marrow, and reparative systems are fortified and work much faster. Here, the body's own natural functions are doing the actual healing, rather than the magic - hence such healing, while faster, is limited to natural possibility (no regeneration).

This is the same idea as your Cap vs Wolverine scenario - and offers reasoning as to why A-Pewter "healing" is different to the magical regenerative healing of F-Gold.

The idea that it's fortifying the individual cells of a body also offers a rationale to why A-Pewter doesn't actually increase muscle mass or show any other physical effect to provide the extra power. It's just magically enhancing the currently existing cells.

I'm not saying A-Pewter doesn't result in increased healing - i'm just saying that the healing itself isn't a function of the magic, it's a function of the body which is enhanced by Pewter, just like the other cells. I've never come across anything (in-book or WoB) to contradict that idea. Loads of things talk about the healing, but not the two methods of how the healing occurs. (I'm adding this to my list of questions for next time there's an AMA or signing though!) 

Either way, I agree that it will help counteract the sickness of F-gold storage, but will not offer storable F-gold power (except indirectly via the body).

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Hoidonalsium said:

I may be wrong in my interpretation (and feel free to disprove me), but I had always assumed that F-Gold was direct investiture-based healing (the magic being the thing that actually knit wounds, replaced blood, or repaired damage by magically creating the required matter).

Whereas A-Pewter enhances the natural bodily healing, by way of fortifying the body. Muscular strength and resiliance against fatigue, or the cold, etc, is the most obvious result - but the strengthening is universal and cellular, so the white blood cells, marrow, and reparative systems are fortified and work much faster. Here, the body's own natural functions are doing the actual healing, rather than the magic - hence such healing, while faster, is limited to natural possibility (no regeneration).

This is the same idea as your Cap vs Wolverine scenario - and offers reasoning as to why A-Pewter "healing" is different to the magical regenerative healing of F-Gold.

The idea that it's fortifying the individual cells of a body also offers a rationale to why A-Pewter doesn't actually increase muscle mass or show any other physical effect to provide the extra power. It's just magically enhancing the currently existing cells.

I'm not saying A-Pewter doesn't result in increased healing - i'm just saying that the healing itself isn't a function of the magic, it's a function of the body which is enhanced by Pewter, just like the other cells. I've never come across anything (in-book or WoB) to contradict that idea. Loads of things talk about the healing, but not the two methods of how the healing occurs. (I'm adding this to my list of questions for next time there's an AMA or signing though!) 

Either way, I agree that it will help counteract the sickness of F-gold storage, but will not offer storable F-gold power (except indirectly via the body).

So I think I understand a bit better what you are saying, and it is an interesting way to look at the process. I think in some ways I agree we are looking at it similarly though with different wording. However I think there is one thing in the books that can shed a little more light on this. 

(side note, not mentioning this to say you are wrong or anything. Just recalling a scene that i think is pertinent)

I think we both know and understand the whole thing about how cosmeric healing is returning the body to the spiritual ideal filtered through the cognitive self. As to the actual physical process, I think A-pewter and F-gold function the same exact way. just one has more "power" than the other. As in pewter plateaus while gold healing does not so long as you have enough to tap. The reason I say this in regards to your post, is because of Wayne when they get bombed by the butler. Using your statement:

 

"the magic being the thing that actually knit wounds, replaced blood, or repaired damage by magically creating the required matter"

 

Then I believe Wayne's healing as it is described in that scene should not work as it did. His wounds should have just closed. But what actually happens is:

 

"The man's back was crusted with blood and burned skin, but it had been lifted and raised as scabs, new skin forming underneath"

"So he grabbed the burned layer at Wayne's shoulder and - with a jerk - ripped the skin off his back. it came free in almost a single complete sheet. Wayne grunted. New skin had formed underneath, pink and fresh, but it couldn't finish healing properly until the old stiff, burned layer had been removed. 

 

So Wayne's body was healing as the human body normally does. Blood clots. Scab is formed. New skin grows underneath, and the old skin sloughs off. Just it was extra accelerated.

Now further to this, if pewter was only increasing the body's immune system to assist in the speed of recovery, then when Brandon was asked regarding healing from an aluminum bullet, then for myself, A-pewter should still be able to heal while f-gold should not. As the body itself is just doing its natural job better. But the WoB indicated both A-pewter and F-gold would cease to heal where the aluminum bullet is present. Now Brandon does comment that a-pewter would not be too affected by the aluminum bullet, but I take that to mean because of their increased durability to allow them to shrug off the damage temporarily till the bullet is removed. But they are still unable to heal it, which he confirms later in the WoB, just like a bloodmaker. 

 

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Edited February 7, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Hoidonalsium]

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So I think I understand a bit better what you are saying, and it is an interesting way to look at the process. I think in some ways I agree we are looking at it similarly though with different wording. However I think there is one thing in the books that can shed a little more light on this. 

(side note, not mentioning this to say you are wrong or anything. Just recalling a scene that i think is pertinent)

I think we both know and understand the whole thing about how cosmeric healing is returning the body to the spiritual ideal filtered through the cognitive self. As to the actual physical process, I think A-pewter and F-gold function the same exact way. just one has more "power" than the other. As in pewter plateaus while gold healing does not so long as you have enough to tap. The reason I say this in regards to your post, is because of Wayne when they get bombed by the butler. Using your statement:

 

"the magic being the thing that actually knit wounds, replaced blood, or repaired damage by magically creating the required matter"

 

Then I believe Wayne's healing as it is described in that scene should not work as it did. His wounds should have just closed. But what actually happens is:

 

"The man's back was crusted with blood and burned skin, but it had been lifted and raised as scabs, new skin forming underneath"

"So he grabbed the burned layer at Wayne's shoulder and - with a jerk - ripped the skin off his back. it came free in almost a single complete sheet. Wayne grunted. New skin had formed underneath, pink and fresh, but it couldn't finish healing properly until the old stiff, burned layer had been removed. 

 

So Wayne's body was healing as the human body normally does. Blood clots. Scab is formed. New skin grows underneath, and the old skin sloughs off. Just it was extra accelerated.

Now further to this, if pewter was only increasing the body's immune system to assist in the speed of recovery, then when Brandon was asked regarding healing from an aluminum bullet, then for myself, A-pewter should still be able to heal while f-gold should not. As the body itself is just doing its natural job better. But the WoB indicated both A-pewter and F-gold would cease to heal where the aluminum bullet is present. Now Brandon does comment that a-pewter would not be too affected by the aluminum bullet, but I take that to mean because of their increased durability to allow them to shrug off the damage temporarily till the bullet is removed. But they are still unable to heal it, which he confirms later in the WoB, just like a bloodmaker. 

 

Kurkistan

What would happen if you shot a thug with an aluminum bullet or stabbed him with an aluminum knife?

Brandon Sanderson

Ah, that's a good question. The wound would not be able to heal around the aluminum, but once the aluminum came out and was gone from the system, they would be okay.

Kurkistan

Wait, is that a Bloodmaker, not a Thug?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh, you're talking about Thugs?

It would work similarly, but it really wouldn't have a huge effect on them.

Kurkistan

Alright, because Peter was implying that there was some weird aluminum interaction with Thugs.

Brandon Sanderson

What was he thinking of...?

There is some weird interaction but...

Kurkistan

In the wedding scene, Wax thinks they would have aluminum bullets to deal with Thugs, and I was like, "Oh, that's a typo." And Peter was like, "Oh no it's not..."

Brandon Sanderson

No, no. That would just be-- it's like I said: healing it until the bullet is gone, it's just the same as Bloodmakers.

Footnote: Referring to AoL sample chapter commentary.
Words of Radiance Philadelphia signing (March 21, 2014)

Wayne's healing may show that F-Gold follows natural healing where possible (if it strives for the ideal that is understood by the soul of the person then it stands to reason that it would heal according to the same understanding of the ideal process that should happen - or maybe healing in a natural way is just the path of least resistance), and then push beyond the natural for other healing - Wayne's regrowth of fingers, Miles' regrowth of... everything... etc. The A-Pewter lacks the ability of this extra push. I wouldn't say that's disproof of my thoughts on the process - but maybe reworks how I was thinking of the "miraculous" healing that gold offers.

The Aluminum thing... I'm taking it with a pinch of copper. Aluminum does all kinds of weird things, interfering with many investitures (and making me ignore the bit of my English brain that's screaming "Aluminium!!"), as discussed lots in this thread - which seems to have spawned the question you quoted, and have some really interesting stuff on Aluminum effects.

Maybe it messes with the enhancement of the cells around it, preventing their magical strengthening and negating the resultant healing effects?

Going to go do more research to see if anyone's asked more Aluminum questions, or if anyone's specifically asked something about the healing / something that contradicts my thoughts. And if I can't find anything definitive, I'll ask at my next opportunity.

[Pathfinder]

28 minutes ago, Hoidonalsium said:

Wayne's healing may show that F-Gold follows natural healing where possible (if it strives for the ideal that is understood by the soul of the person then it stands to reason that it would heal according to the same understanding of the ideal process that should happen - or maybe healing in a natural way is just the path of least resistance), and then push beyond the natural for other healing - Wayne's regrowth of fingers, Miles' regrowth of... everything... etc. The A-Pewter lacks the ability of this extra push. I wouldn't say that's disproof of my thoughts on the process - but maybe reworks how I was thinking of the "miraculous" healing that gold offers.

So the whole ideal of the spiritual is going like a computer program. The spiritual ideal is the template that as the body heals, it tries to match. That way you don't end up with extra arms, or legs, etc. But it is also filtered through the cognitive, how you see yourself. Which is why someone who was born male, transitions to female, and then is healed, is healed as female. 

Now as to regrowing fingers, I theorize that a-pewter could regrow fingers and the like, just it would require constant pewter burning for an extended period of time. 

Quote

The Aluminum thing... I'm taking it with a pinch of copper. Aluminum does all kinds of weird things, interfering with many investitures (and making me ignore the bit of my English brain that's screaming "Aluminium!!"), as discussed lots in this thread - which seems to have spawned the question you quoted, and have some really interesting stuff on Aluminum effects.

A subsequent WoB regarding aluminum and cosmere healing has it as "being inert and blocking investiture". I have it posted below:

 

Argent

On Nalthis, can aluminum prevent somebody from Returning? So if you kill somebody with aluminum and leave the weapon in them?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think that's going to be enough. I think that…

Argent

Different way then?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah there are totally ways. I don’t think that that’s going to be enough. There's a difference between being inert and blocking Investiture, and actually sucking out Investiture. If you stuck Nightblood inside of a corpse; there are certain things… if you had a larkin or whatever sitting there that ingests the Investiture as it was coming in, that would prevent [Returning]. I think with aluminum you would just have somebody that comes alive with a wound, so maybe... But I think it would just heal around [the aluminum] and you'd just have a spike in you, kind of like Hemalurgy—but not like Hemalurgy. It's inert, but you know what I mean.

Argent

Which suggests you can't actually Awaken aluminum.

Brandon Sanderson

No. It's not going to hold a charge.

Kurkistan

I assume you can't Forge it, either.

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact the unForgable metal-

Argent

Ralkalest?

Brandon Sanderson

There's an unForgeable metal mentioned.

Kurkistan

Could we call it aluminum if we wanted to?

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

 

 

Quote

Maybe it messes with the enhancement of the cells around it, preventing their magical strengthening and negating the resultant healing effects?

I guess this is where we will just have to agree to disagree, because biologically regrowing limbs can be explained without magic having to create it out of no where, versus pewter strengthening the natural body. At the end of the day I think pewter and gold are analogous, just as with all the other metals, allomancy plateaus at a certain flare level, while feruchemy can increase so long as you have the supply. 

 

edit: to put it this way. if it prevents the magical strengthening in a localized area, then shouldn't it still be healed? If the body's immune and natural systems are augmented, then the rest of the body is still producing the extra cells, and functions that would travel to the location to heal it. So the increased production would still exist, and should still function despite the localized area lacking. So I would think if that was the case, the wound would still heal regardless, yet according to Brandon, it would not. At least that is how I reason it. 

Quote

Going to go do more research to see if anyone's asked more Aluminum questions, or if anyone's specifically asked something about the healing / something that contradicts my thoughts. And if I can't find anything definitive, I'll ask at my next opportunity.

Sounds good. Good luck!

Edited February 7, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Hoidonalsium]

31 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So the whole ideal of the spiritual is going like a computer program. The spiritual ideal is the template that as the body heals, it tries to match. That way you don't end up with extra arms, or legs, etc. But it is also filtered through the cognitive, how you see yourself. Which is why someone who was born male, transitions to female, and then is healed, is healed as female. 

Now as to regrowing fingers, I theorize that a-pewter could regrow fingers and the like, just it would require constant pewter burning for an extended period of time. 

A subsequent WoB regarding aluminum and cosmere healing has it as "being inert and blocking investiture".

...

Brandon Sanderson

Let's just say that aluminum through most cultures was considered a mythological metal, and when people could actually find some, they considered it more valuable than gold, in our culture. So just sayin'...

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

...

edit: to put it this way. if it prevents the magical strengthening in a localized area, then shouldn't it still be healed? If the body's immune and natural systems are augmented, then the rest of the body is still producing the extra cells, and functions that would travel to the location to heal it. So the increased production would still exist, and should still function despite the localized area lacking. So I would think if that was the case, the wound would still heal regardless, yet according to Brandon, it would not. At least that is how I reason it. 

Sounds good. Good luck!

I hadn't considered gender identities in relation to realmatics... Interesting to know, and curious to see if it comes up in a book at some stage. 

Gah! Yeah, ok - I cant argue against that, other than just disagreeing with your interpretation. There are certainly one or two Aluminum bullet-holes in my thoughts that I need to address! 

[Pathfinder]

41 minutes ago, Hoidonalsium said:

I hadn't considered gender identities in relation to realmatics... Interesting to know, and curious to see if it comes up in a book at some stage. 

No problem. here is the WoB regarding that:

 

R'Shara

Would Stormlight healing, Progression, or Feruchemical gold healing count as some of the ways that a transgender person could change their body to match their identity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Those would work. In fact, that's kind of the main way that you would make that happen. Injections of Investiture making the body match the Spiritual and Cognitive.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

 

41 minutes ago, Hoidonalsium said:

Gah! Yeah, ok - I cant argue against that, other than just disagreeing with your interpretation. There are certainly one or two Aluminum bullet-holes in my thoughts that I need to address! 

No problemo. Never hurts to ask the guy himself. Good luck!

[Channelknight Fadran]

A common side effect of pewter is that you don't feel pain from wounds that may actually be mortal. Pewter can't actually heal you up like gold can, but it could mitigate the effects that you would normally feel when filling your goldmind.

[Tglassy]

So...if Gold was only a "magical healing", then why do you get sick or not heal from wounds when you store "Health"?  If one person, who can naturally heal faster, stores gold, would he store more than someone who has a naturally poor immune system?  Personally, I would think so.  You're storing "Health", not "Magical Health".  Yes, it's taking you back to the Ideal Form of yourself, but it's still "Health".  So if you could, say, increase your "Health", and then store the excess, that should make sense.  

 

A Pewterarm should be able to store Strength, Speed, Health, Wakefulness and potentially Breath (depending on wither that is a benefit, though Pewterdragging suggests that it is), because Pewter doesn't "Enhance your strength and speed".  It "Enhances your physical body."  It's every physical thing you have.  Your bones are harder, your muscles more dense, your balance perfected, your resistance to wounds, and ability to survive them, heightened.  One Allomantic Metal enhances all of that.  Feruchemy splits each of those attributes.  In fact, a Pewterarm who was also a Tineye (say, from a Medallion), is able to simulate what six, maybe seven, other metals can do in Feruchemy.  There is no reason given why a Pewterarm, with enhanced speed, could not siphon that extra speed into a Steelmind.  Same with Strength, or any of the other physical attributes.  Even Warmth.  Ham likes standing out in the cold without a shirt on, because he can.  Pewter allows for that. Feruchemists can do it too, if they use Brass.  

 

When you store an attribute, you lose that attribute for a while.  If Gold only stored "Magical Health", then it wouldn't make you get sick easier, or not be able to heal from real wounds as fast.  

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Tglassy said:

There is no reason given why a Pewterarm, with enhanced speed, could not siphon that extra speed into a Steelmind

There are some odd effects of doing that like the way your mind recessives time but if you are just talking about running speed that will probably work.

[Bigmikey357]

If one had F-Pewter as well as A-Pewter they could store all of those different attributes. But of course that's Compounding.  But storing an attribute one receives from A-Pewter into anything other than a Pewtermind doesn't work Realmatically. The power isn't compatible. I agree that one would be able to store more F-Gold health while burning A-Pewter, possibly much more, but the pewter healing isn't the same as F-Gold healing based on the source of the health.  A Thug healing is a purely Physical Realm thing. That means it must work only through the body's processes.  Faster than an unenhanced human but one isn't regrowing limbs or surviving disemboweling. They can even die of bloodloss if untreated.  F-Gold healing comes from the Spiritual Realm and so from the outside it looks like its accelerating the body's natural processes what it's actually doing is resetting the body back to its Spiritual blueprint.