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About Navani's Background


Yifyu

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As we know  Navani's parents hasn't been mentioned by name in the entire Stormlight Archive.

But while rereading TWOK ch61, I found this.

Quote

You still know me as me, not some shadow of a dynasty that crumbled years ago.

Is this why we know little about Navani's background because she's from a broken kingdom?

Edited by Yifyu
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We know for certain that Navani, at least, married Gavilar for political purposes and it's fair to assume that Gavilar did the same.  I would suggest that she's descended from The Sunmaker's line, but there are already a ton of people listed as his descendants on the wiki including Gavilar and Dalinar so they wouldn't need to marry into that line for purposes of legitimacy (although given the history of European royalty, it's very likely that all of them are descended from Sadees).  The next-most significant historical ruler of Alethkar would be the Hierocracy, but given how the church's rule is now viewed even if we were to assume that such a dynasty existed it would not be a favorable political match.  We can also rule out the possibility of Navani being a foreigner like Evi.  The most reasonable possibility is that she was the daughter of another highprince, thus bringing another princedom into the kingdom, or simply the daughter of a powerful Highlord who brought either wealth, manpower, or shards to the kingdom.

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2 hours ago, Karger said:

I think that line could just refer to her marriage to Gavilar.  Yeah his dynasty is still around but it is much less powerful now.

I dont think so, a dynasty implies multiple generations of a bloodline and at the time Gavilar was just another Highprince of the Alethi Princedoms, but still one of the more prominent ones. The Sunmaker united the nation for one generation only, before that it was the Heirocracy, and before that was silver Kingdom territory that is basically myth to most Rosharans. 

 

2 hours ago, mathwin said:

We know for certain that Navani, at least, married Gavilar for political purposes and it's fair to assume that Gavilar did the same.  I would suggest that she's descended from The Sunmaker's line, but there are already a ton of people listed as his descendants on the wiki including Gavilar and Dalinar so they wouldn't need to marry into that line for purposes of legitimacy (although given the history of European royalty, it's very likely that all of them are descended from Sadees).  The next-most significant historical ruler of Alethkar would be the Hierocracy, but given how the church's rule is now viewed even if we were to assume that such a dynasty existed it would not be a favorable political match.  We can also rule out the possibility of Navani being a foreigner like Evi.  The most reasonable possibility is that she was the daughter of another highprince, thus bringing another princedom into the kingdom, or simply the daughter of a powerful Highlord who brought either wealth, manpower, or shards to the kingdom.

Well, the original Highprince bloodlines were formed by the Sunmaker's ten son's, so techncailly all Highprinces should be able to trace their bloodlines directly to the Sunmaker. Unless there had been a coup in one of them and a new bloodline installed. If so, it could make sense that Navani was part of the Ousted Bloodline, acknowledged for the Sunmaker lineage but booted from actual power long ago. 

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3 hours ago, mathwin said:

We know for certain that Navani, at least, married Gavilar for political purposes and it's fair to assume that Gavilar did the same.  I would suggest that she's descended from The Sunmaker's line, but there are already a ton of people listed as his descendants on the wiki including Gavilar and Dalinar so they wouldn't need to marry into that line for purposes of legitimacy (although given the history of European royalty, it's very likely that all of them are descended from Sadees).  The next-most significant historical ruler of Alethkar would be the Hierocracy, but given how the church's rule is now viewed even if we were to assume that such a dynasty existed it would not be a favorable political match.  We can also rule out the possibility of Navani being a foreigner like Evi.  The most reasonable possibility is that she was the daughter of another highprince, thus bringing another princedom into the kingdom, or simply the daughter of a powerful Highlord who brought either wealth, manpower, or shards to the kingdom.

 

41 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I dont think so, a dynasty implies multiple generations of a bloodline and at the time Gavilar was just another Highprince of the Alethi Princedoms, but still one of the more prominent ones. The Sunmaker united the nation for one generation only, before that it was the Heirocracy, and before that was silver Kingdom territory that is basically myth to most Rosharans. 

 

Well, the original Highprince bloodlines were formed by the Sunmaker's ten son's, so techncailly all Highprinces should be able to trace their bloodlines directly to the Sunmaker. Unless there had been a coup in one of them and a new bloodline installed. If so, it could make sense that Navani was part of the Ousted Bloodline, acknowledged for the Sunmaker lineage but booted from actual power long ago. 

It doesn't seem like Navani is related to any princedoms that are existed now. 

Quote

You still know me as me, not some shadow of a dynasty that crumbled years ago.

It's like her country or princedom is gone and she cut off her relation with her family.

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1 hour ago, Yifyu said:

It doesn't seem like Navani is related to any princedoms that are existed now. 

Why do you say that?  Im not saying she's related to the current government, but if any of them are not currently ruled by the original Sunmaker's Son bloodline, she might be a scion of that ousted bloodline.  

1 hour ago, Yifyu said:

It's like her country or princedom is gone and she cut off her relation with her family.

Given that she married for political reasons, I highly doubt she has cut family ties, as families are generally the whole point with political marriage.  She could have married for personal gain/survival rather than family motivations, but I never got the sense she was that much on her own, and I dont see Alethi Society being that accepting of a family-less person (who would have likely lost her Dahn status) as their princess. 

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8 hours ago, Yifyu said:

As we know  Navani's parents hasn't been mentioned by name in the entire Stromlight Archive.

But while rereading TWOK ch61, I found this.

Is this why we know little about Navani's background because she's from a broken kingdom?

I think it's tied to something to due with Dynastic succession.  Navani is probably the last descendant of the main branch of a dynasty of one of the High Princedoms.  Maybe she is the last of the Sunmaker's main line - the first sons of first sons line.  Gavilar probably married her for the boost of legitimacy of his rule which he got mainly by conquest.

This is sort of like the Bourbon Dynasty of France in its final days.  Louis XVI and his son Louis XVII were killed during the French Revolution.  Afterwards the revolution and the brief period of the Empire under Napoleon, Louis XVI's brother Charles was returned to the throne as Charles X.  Eventually, Charles X was forced out of power and the main line of the Bourbons was ended.  Louis-Philippe, who was head of the Orleans cadet branch of the Bourbon dynasty, became King.  He was the great great grandson of Louis XIV's daughter.  

So, in this case Navani would be like Charles X's daughter.  She has royal blood from a long running dynasty that is dying and out of power.  Gavilar would be someone like Napoleon, trying to marry her to bring legitimacy in the eyes of the old royalists (this did not happen in real French history, just an example).  The new High Prince of her Princedom would be like Louis Philippe.

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  • 3 months later...

I have seriously been wondering if she was a herald, seems very interesting that there is so little discussed about her background. And in Oathbringer there's a line "she had no problem being a wife or mother to monarchs but to be one herself... Storms what a dark path that would lead them all down." 

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20 hours ago, ranstang94 said:

I have seriously been wondering if she was a herald, seems very interesting that there is so little discussed about her background. And in Oathbringer there's a line "she had no problem being a wife or mother to monarchs but to be one herself... Storms what a dark path that would lead them all down." 

That would be an interesting turn! It raises a lot of questions about the aging process of the Heralds. However, I feel like The Stormfather would have said something to Dalinar. The Stormfather recognizes the Heralds and even points them out on occasions, so him NOT doing so with the flimsy excuse of "you didn't ask" would feel very out of place. 

I do agree that Navani is hiding things, but her hesitance to lead Alethkar may just be self-doubt or something similar. 

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I did think about the Stormfather, but since he can't "see" most of the heralds I was wondering if they have a way of hiding, at the start of Oathbringer he says he only sees Ishar. unless someone has a quote I don't...? he doesn't even know where Jezrein is and he was barely even hiding.

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also there is this from WoR "To be perfectly frank, what has happened these last two months is upon my head. The death, destruction, loss, and pain are my burden. I should have seen it coming. And I should have stopped it."

how should she have stopped it? At first I thought this was just normal grief guilt... but what if it wasn't

then there is this "We had never considered that there might be Parshendi spies hiding among our slaves. This is something else I should have seen."

but they didn't know Parshendi could change forms until much later. How should she have seen it unless she knew more of them than she should have?  

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Peter Ahlstrom

Dalinar is 53 in Way of Kings. Navani is a few months older than him. Sadeas is 3 years younger than him.

Note that these are Rosharan ages. A Rosharan year is 1.1 Earth years.

General Reddit 2017 (Sept. 21, 2017)

Looks like she isn't a herald, but I'm really interested to see what's up with her past. I hope she ends up being the other main character for RoW.

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I don't know that this quote completely disproves the theory, since "Navani" as a Persona could be only a few months older than Dalinar in the same way you could say Veil is only a few months old... again its only a theory and it might not hold water. 

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4 hours ago, ranstang94 said:

also there is this from WoR "To be perfectly frank, what has happened these last two months is upon my head. The death, destruction, loss, and pain are my burden. I should have seen it coming. And I should have stopped it."

how should she have stopped it? At first I thought this was just normal grief guilt... but what if it wasn't

then there is this "We had never considered that there might be Parshendi spies hiding among our slaves. This is something else I should have seen."

but they didn't know Parshendi could change forms until much later. How should she have seen it unless she knew more of them than she should have?  

The Parshendi spies thing wouldn't require any extra knowledge.  When humans first saw the Parshendi, they named them "Parshendi" because they looked like the Parshmen.

Navani as a Herald is an interesting theory and if it's fun for you keep it for sure.  But there's very low chance of it being true, especially with a preview passages released from the RoW Prologue which is in Navani's POV.  I don't think Navani is hiding anything.  It's just that because she's a secondary character we as readers don't know as much about her past as the characters do and it doesn't come up because it's not relevant to the story.  Spoiler below for the summary of the RoW preview reading.

Spoiler

Nale and another Herald come to visit Gavilar and Navani sees them but does not recognize them as Heralds.  https://wob.coppermind.net/events/394-dragoncon-2019/#e12852

 

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Outside of the lack of reaction from the Stormfather and Syl, both of whom have had direct personal interaction with her and not reacted the way they did when they met Heralds (Syl's whole You're in the presence of divinities line in OB) I think the biggest clue that she wasnt a herald was hope legitimately interested she was in the information she was getting from Dalinar's visions.  She was ecstatic to get a look at the radiant era Fabrials, something a Herald would have already been entirely familiar with.  

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I think you're making a big deal over a little line and not including full context as you do so. She's talking to Dalinar about how she was perceived as a result of Gavilar's death. It isn't a clue to her backstory beyond what we already knew. She was Queen. The King died. People started seeing her as unimportant and she felt useless so she came back to the Shattered Plains. Whatever her previous affiliations were, this scene isn't hinting at them. 

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those are some good points against, thanks for the data points. I honestly have been wrong almost 100% of the time with Sanderson's books, but it is fun to come up with theories and talk about them. I think you guys are right, her not recognizing the other Heralds and getting so excited about the Fabrials are pretty much deff proof she isn't a herald. Still there is going to be some interesting reveals with her I am positive. 

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On 5/6/2020 at 0:36 PM, ranstang94 said:

I have seriously been wondering if she was a herald, seems very interesting that there is so little discussed about her background. And in Oathbringer there's a line "she had no problem being a wife or mother to monarchs but to be one herself... Storms what a dark path that would lead them all down." 

That would be interesting, but all of the Heralds are broken in one way or another and I've seen nothing that would suggest her being broken in the way that the others all are. But if you have something that gives hints of that, I would appreciate the enlightenment. 

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