+Oltux72 Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 All systems based on the Dor cannot predate the formation of the Dor. But Sel had two Shards in residence before that, presumably for quite some time. During that time Sel's CR must have been accessible. Where are the worldhoppers who left Sel during that time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Harrycrapper Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 Have we ever gotten any sort of confirmation on who the Elantrians at The Ire were and when they left Sel? If I'm not mistaken, the book Elantris takes place pretty early in Cosmere history relative to Mistborn and it seemed like the city of Elantris itself had been established some time before the book. Are the members of the Ire pre or post Reod? Pre shattering of Devotion and Dominion? They're the only ones we've seen so far that could fit your question, otherwise the others we have seen on Roshar are definitely post Reod. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted February 3, 2020 Report Share Posted February 3, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said: All systems based on the Dor cannot predate the formation of the Dor. But Sel had two Shards in residence before that, presumably for quite some time. During that time Sel's CR must have been accessible. Where are the worldhoppers who left Sel during that time? Maybe. We don't know how long those two shards were on Sel or how long it takes for a perpendicularity to form. In fact we do not even know if post stone age humans were on the planet at the time. 1 minute ago, Harrycrapper said: Pre shattering of Devotion and Dominion That happened in the planet's prehistory. Elantris only formed latter. Edited February 3, 2020 by Karger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Harrycrapper Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 52 minutes ago, Karger said: That happened in the planet's prehistory. Elantris only formed latter. What I'm wondering is if there is anyone still alive from back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RShara Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 Odium Splintered Devotion and Dominion first, of all the Shards, so I would imagine that it wasn't very long after the Shattering that the Dor formed from their power. 48 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said: Have we ever gotten any sort of confirmation on who the Elantrians at The Ire were and when they left Sel? If I'm not mistaken, the book Elantris takes place pretty early in Cosmere history relative to Mistborn and it seemed like the city of Elantris itself had been established some time before the book. Are the members of the Ire pre or post Reod? Pre shattering of Devotion and Dominion? They're the only ones we've seen so far that could fit your question, otherwise the others we have seen on Roshar are definitely post Reod. Given the Ire are Elantrians, they would have to post-date the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion and the formation of Elantris, since the Dor and Elantris wouldn't have formed before then. I would guess that most of them are pre-Reod, but that they probably have some members by now that are post-Reod. Elantris isn't thousands of years before Mistborn, so something under 2000 years? Quote Zas Elantris. Where does it fit in the timeline in reference to Hero of Ages? Since that's what most other things are referenced to. Brandon Sanderson Right. Elantris is far earlier. Zas Like thousands? Or like hundreds? Brandon Sanderson It's quite... It's not thousands. Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Karger Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 32 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said: What I'm wondering is if there is anyone still alive from back then. Hoid, the shards, Frost a few others probably. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) On 2/4/2020 at 5:32 AM, RShara said: Given the Ire are Elantrians, they would have to post-date the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion and the formation of Elantris, since the Dor and Elantris wouldn't have formed before then. I would guess that most of them are pre-Reod, but that they probably have some members by now that are post-Reod. Elantris isn't thousands of years before Mistborn, so something under 2000 years? Do they need to be though? Do we have any WoBs regarding what those taken by the Shaod would look like without being amplified by the city? Also any indication of what pre-Devotion & Dominion magic might've looked like? Edited March 25, 2020 by Dreamer edited for clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pathfinder Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 It looks like pre-Elantris, that there were still Elantrians, just they had to discover the aons. WoB below Brandon Sanderson Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning. The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula. Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered." There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet. Elantris Annotations (Feb. 14, 2006) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Honorless Posted February 4, 2020 Report Share Posted February 4, 2020 (edited) On 2/4/2020 at 9:01 PM, Pathfinder said: It looks like pre-Elantris, that there were still Elantrians, just they had to discover the aons. WoB below Brandon Sanderson Aons are an interesting part of this book–perhaps my favorite of the world elements. If you think about the system I've set up, you'll realize some things. First, the Aons have to be older than the Aonic language. They're based directly off of the land. So, the lines that make up the characters aren't arbitrary. Perhaps the sounds associated with them are, but the meanings–at least in part–are inherent. The scene with Raoden explaining how the Aon for "Wood" includes circles matching the forests in the land of Arelon indicates that there is a relationship between the Aons and their meanings. In addition, each Aon produces a magical effect, which would have influenced its meaning. The second interesting fact about the Aons is that only Elantrians can draw them. And Elantrians have to come from the lands near Arelon. Teoish people can be taken, but only if they're in Arelon at the time. Genetically, then, the Teos and the Arelenes must be linked–and evidence seems to indicate that the Arelenes lived in the land first, and the Teos crossed the sea to colonize their peninsula. Only Elantrians can draw Aons in the air, so someone taken by the Shaod must have developed the writing system. That is part of what makes writing a noble art in Arelon–drawing the Aons would have been associated with Elantrians. Most likely, the early Elantrians (who probably didn't even have Elantris back then) would have had to learn the Aons by trial and error, finding what each one did, and associating its meaning and sound with its effect. The language didn't develop, but was instead "discovered." There are likely Aons that haven't even been found yet. Elantris Annotations (Feb. 14, 2006) No mention of what the "Elantrians" taken by the Shaod but not enhanced by the city look like (not talking about Hoed) or magics of Sel before Devotion and Dominion got taken out in either WoBs or 10th anniversary annotations @Oltux72, I've always wondered if the Ire might've been the original Elantrians. The ones who built Elantris to amplify their powers and then got bored of immortality/severe restrictions, and decided to explore, becoming the Worldhopping organization we saw in Mistborn: Secret History Edited March 30, 2020 by Dreamer edited for clarity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Shard Posted February 5, 2020 Report Share Posted February 5, 2020 I think that if Elantrians predate Elantris (which makes naming them somewhat confusing, but anyways), then Elantris itself wouldn't significantly effect the pre-Elantris Elantrians' appearance different than how we have seen distance do so. What happens if Raoden is in the Rose Empire? Or Galladon on Roshar? What do they appear as? As far as the OPs question goes, here's everything relevant I could find [spoilered for length]: Spoiler Quote Questioner Was Elantris built before or after the prologue of Way of Kings? Brandon Sanderson *Pauses* Go to my notes and find out. I would have to actually specifically look that one up. My instinct says.....oh boy. Questioner Yeah, because they're both really old. Brandon Sanderson They're really old. They're both really old. I want to say that the prologue is older, but I don't know for sure, because I know things on Roshar are older. But, the prologue happens late in things on Roshar, so it's still old. So I'm gonna go with, I think this but I'd have to actually get the outline and look at the timeline. Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016) Quote Chris King Did seons exist when the Aonic peoples discovered Elantris? Brandon Sanderson When the Aonic peoples discovered Elantris, did seons exist-- Okay let me go back to my timeline... It kind of means you have to define what you mean by Aonic. The problem is if you dig back too far in history it's kind of like asking "What's a German?" You know what I mean? Chris King Because the Aons are based upon Elantris itself and so they don't become Aonic until they are writing the Aons. Brandon Sanderson And Aonic is also-- You are talking about the people and so it's like are the Normans Brits? Or are they Vikings? Or are they Frenchman? Chris King Why don't we phrase it as the people of Sel when they discovered Elantris. Brandon Sanderson No, no, that's getting, okay-- Let's go ahead and RAFO that one, just because the history of Elantris is very interesting to the cosmere. When people are starting to get an inkling of that. Chris King Odium was there once upon a time. Brandon Sanderson Yah... And the question of who built Elantris and how they built Elantris. What's going on with the Elantrians back then and things like this. So let's just RAFO that. Chris King interview (Sept. 24, 2013) Quote Chris King Did seons exist when the Aonic peoples discovered Elantris? Brandon Sanderson When the Aonic peoples discovered Elantris, did seons exist-- Okay let me go back to my timeline... It kind of means you have to define what you mean by Aonic. The problem is if you dig back too far in history it's kind of like asking "What's a German?" You know what I mean? Chris King Because the Aons are based upon Elantris itself and so they don't become Aonic until they are writing the Aons. Brandon Sanderson And Aonic is also-- You are talking about the people and so it's like are the Normans Brits? Or are they Vikings? Or are they Frenchman? Chris King Why don't we phrase it as the people of Sel when they discovered Elantris. Brandon Sanderson No, no, that's getting, okay-- Let's go ahead and RAFO that one, just because the history of Elantris is very interesting to the cosmere. When people are starting to get an inkling of that. Chris King Odium was there once upon a time. Brandon Sanderson Yah... And the question of who built Elantris and how they built Elantris. What's going on with the Elantrians back then and things like this. So let's just RAFO that. Chris King interview (Sept. 24, 2013) Quote Chris King Does Shu-Keseg predate the splintering of Devotion and Dominion? Brandon Sanderson No, I don't believe it does. Chris King interview (Sept. 24, 2013) tl:dr We just have very little information on even if anything predated the Splintering of Devotion and Dominion, but it was a really long time ago. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmikey357 Posted February 6, 2020 Report Share Posted February 6, 2020 The question I keep coming back to is were the magic systems of Devotion and Dominion ever not geographically locked? I mean Odium visited pretty early post-Shattering. Did the Shards in residence have time to establish magic systems before Odium mucked things up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftl Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 Since the magics being geographically locked is related to how the Dor is stuffed into the Cognitive realm (which has a spatial component) instead of the Spiritual realm, I would guess that pre-splintering selish magic was not geographically locked. That means it must have been extremely different than what it is now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kramerfarve Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 Kind of a one-off thought, if I was going purely off of name, I’d wager that the Ire are planning something either in conjunction with or in opposition to Odium. Both names essentially mean anger or hatred so there are some thematic connections there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
18th Shard Posted February 8, 2020 Report Share Posted February 8, 2020 6 hours ago, Kramerfarve said: Kind of a one-off thought, if I was going purely off of name, I’d wager that the Ire are planning something either in conjunction with or in opposition to Odium. Both names essentially mean anger or hatred so there are some thematic connections there. Ire (pronounced Eye-ree) is actually an Aonic word signifying age, and has no relation to the English "ire". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eternal Khol Posted February 9, 2020 Report Share Posted February 9, 2020 (edited) On 2/4/2020 at 5:48 AM, Honorless said: Do they need to be though? Do we have any WoBs regarding what those taken by the Shaod would look like without being amplified by the city? Also any indication of what pre-Devotion & Dominion death magic might've looked like? I think the effects would be drastically reduced. Elantris is a Focus for Elantrians pumping more of the Dor through them. Without Elantris less of the Dor would be feeding them and the effects would be less visible. I bet they wouldn't even have the white skin or silver hair--this to me seems an side effect of more of the Dor feeding them--i bet they would still glow faintly Edited February 9, 2020 by Eternal Khol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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