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King Kaladin the Peace-Blessed


Confused

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30 minutes ago, lccaseiro58 said:

Dalinar is already high king of Urithiru and the shattered plains and as long the alethi highprinces are in Dalinar territory they are under his command, which technically also makes him king of Alethkar. This was Elhokar proclamation in chapter 12 of OB, which he sign before leaving to Kholinar.

Except not really.  While you may be nominally governed by another power while visiting you do not forfeit your sovereignty.  Anyway Dalinar announced his intention to move away from that "highking nonsense" at the end of OB.

14 minutes ago, Bearer of Agonies said:

Most likely, Dalinar's successor as ruler of Urithiru would be another Bondsmith. If, somehow, there is no Bondsmith, I see a Radiant council being in charge. This could even be the case when there is a Bondsmith, with the Bondsmith overseeing a group of senior Radiants. However, without a Bondsmith, if there can only be one leader, then the Windrunner leader (Kaladin) might be in charge because of their Protect/Lead attributes. But a council seems more likely.

I am still waiting for Urithiru to come up with a government that Szeth can enforce the rules of.

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On 1/31/2020 at 11:02 PM, Confused said:

No, no, and no. I’ve had this debate often (probably at some point with you). Divine attributes are cultural, but on Roshar that makes them magical. Roshar is a world of living ideas. Cultural ideals like Protecting, Just, Brave, etc. become Invested as Radiant spren. Human manifestation of the Primary Divine Attributes attracts Radiant spren. Divine Attributes are an important magical component of Surgebinding without which there would be no Radiant spren as we know them.

Could Rosharans have come up with a different set of ideals? Of course. They are arbitrary. But once Rosharans collectively accept those ideals – which is how they see the Heraldic virtues – then those ideals take life in the Cognitive Realm.

Regardless, my point is that a man who IN FACT shows incredible leadership skills that match his Order’s Divine Attribute is more likely than someone else to assume the leadership role of King. As I said in the OP, Kaladin as leader of the Windrunners is a leader of leaders.

You are right that cultural ideas do manifest as radiant spren.  That doesn't mean that the "Divine Attributes" are magical or 100% binding on the radiants or that they manifest in the exact same way every time.  I think your description is the right way to think about it though - the radiant spren look for people they feel qualify for their associated divine attributes.  That doesn't mean that the radiant candidate is a perfect example of those qualities and it doesn't mean they can't change over time.  For example, I would have a hard time describing Lopen as someone with a strong "Leading" attribute or a candidate that is anywhere near suitable to be a king.  There are arguments to be made for why he does have some good leadership qualities, sure.  But those qualities don't fall under what we would normally want for a king or a military officer.

Anyway, regarding your OP -  I don't have a problem with Kaladin becoming king, but I don't think there's any indication that it's likely.  Yes, he is a good leader but he's a good low to mid-level leader.  He is someone that is good at accomplishing tasks and doing what is put in front of him, inspiring his men and keeping them safe through battle.  It's the Bondsmith order that is set up to be the high level leaders with their "guiding" attribute.  They come up with the grand strategy, the ideas of how the "kingdom" should be run and how the war should be fought.  This is shown by example - Dalinar is the only bondsmith and the only (protagonist) who is shown to be an effective top level leader.  If there is a "high king" established I think it will be a Bondsmith.

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6 hours ago, Booknerd said:

Perhapse conspiring with known murderers without permission from her superiors.

Their guilt was not ever actually proven.  I personally think that one was all Mr T.

11 minutes ago, agrabes said:

You are right that cultural ideas do manifest as radiant spren.  That doesn't mean that the "Divine Attributes" are magical or 100% binding on the radiants or that they manifest in the exact same way every time

Thank You!

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2 hours ago, agrabes said:

For example, I would have a hard time describing Lopen as someone with a strong "Leading" attribute or a candidate that is anywhere near suitable to be a king.  There are arguments to be made for why he does have some good leadership qualities, sure.  But those qualities don't fall under what we would normally want for a king or a military officer.

Ironic that you say that, considering Lopen was actually the king of Alethkar. 

2 hours ago, agrabes said:

Anyway, regarding your OP -  I don't have a problem with Kaladin becoming king, but I don't think there's any indication that it's likely.  Yes, he is a good leader but he's a good low to mid-level leader.  He is someone that is good at accomplishing tasks and doing what is put in front of him, inspiring his men and keeping them safe through battle.  It's the Bondsmith order that is set up to be the high level leaders with their "guiding" attribute.  They come up with the grand strategy, the ideas of how the "kingdom" should be run and how the war should be fought.  This is shown by example - Dalinar is the only bondsmith and the only (protagonist) who is shown to be an effective top level leader.  If there is a "high king" established I think it will be a Bondsmith.

Exactly. although "guiding" to me implies not that the Bondsmiths made up some sort of supreme triarchy, but that they presided over a council of kings or senior Radiants. You know, a "first among equals" kind of deal.

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On 2/1/2020 at 0:02 AM, Confused said:

Regardless, my point is that a man who IN FACT shows incredible leadership skills that match his Order’s Divine Attribute is more likely than someone else to assume the leadership role of King. As I said in the OP, Kaladin as leader of the Windrunners is a leader of leaders.

So first and foremost, at least for myself, I am not arguing that Kaladin does not display leadership qualities. I just personally do not think those leadership qualities lend itself to kingship, or being a successful ruler. Kaladin has said multiple times he has trouble thinking/dealing with the bigger picture. For example when focusing on his bridge crew to the detriment of the rest of the army. And that is not the only time he has done that. I guess what I, and a few other people are saying is we see Kaladin as more of a direct military leader, than a ruler. But again as I posted before, I am not saying it is not possible. Just I personally do not think it will happen. I wish you luck!

On 2/1/2020 at 0:02 AM, Confused said:

The key words are the “tower and the crown.” That is the House Kholin glyphpair (except for Elhokar, who replaces the tower with a sword). [WoK, Chapter 28, Kindle p. 420.) The Kholin family rules Alethkar. That suggests (to me) that the “fallen title” is King. Since the Chapter 53 Epigraph adds “spear” to the glyphpair, it makes sense (to me) that Kaladin is the one who picks up the fallen title of Alethkar’s king.

Totally respect your interpretation of that. For myself I thought it was saying the Dalinar must pick up the fallen title of the knights radiant. In other words re-found them. The tower was the battle of the tower. The crown was Elhokar and the highprinces. And the spear was Kaladin arriving. That was just my own reading of it. The back of the books are written by the Sleepless, and seem to concern the book itself (to me). So for myself, that quote has already come to pass and is done. 

On 2/1/2020 at 0:02 AM, Confused said:

Of course there’s no evidence. That’s why the OP is speculative fluff. BUT – It strains credulity to think this was the ONLY time voidspren “tormented” Gavinor. What effect would such repeated “harassment” have on a two or three-year-old child? Here’s the scene:

I guess where we diverge is on the idea of corruption. I take Odium's influence as the Thrill working on Dalinar for years. Or the Heart of the Revel on the ardents. Gavinor just came across to me as a scared little boy who I agree will be traumatized by his experience, but I don't see him as being corrupted. But totally respect you see things differently. 

On 2/1/2020 at 0:02 AM, Confused said:

This is scary stuff for a young mind to absorb. It normalizes terror for him. I did use the word “corrupt” to describe the effect, but that connotes direct Odium influence that changes Gavinor’s Spiritual aspect like spren corruption changes theirs. I didn’t mean that, just that Odium (through his voidspren) has so messed with the kid’s head he will never be normal or capable of rule.

There’s also another interpretation: Maybe the voidspren are Gavinor’s friends. I doubt Aesudan/Yelig-nar allows her son to play with other boys. She even tells Elhokar, “He’s playing with friends.” Maybe misunderstanding, “Kaladin reacted with swift, immediate rage.” [OB, Chapter 84, Kindle pp. 812, 813 (italics in original).]

When Kaladin reaches for Gavinor to leave, “the boy screamed and scrambled away from him.” Gavinor doesn’t know Kal, and some children react poorly to strangers. Still, this seems an extreme reaction. The boy even “scooted away from his father, crying” until “Elhokar whispered something to his son [and] the child stopped weeping...blinked away tears, and finally let his father pick him up.” [OB, Chapter 84, Kindle pp. 813-814.] Elhokar probably said he was Gavinor’s father, whom the boy must not remember. Added together, the boy seems more comfortable with voidspren than humans. But who knows? Just throwing out possibilities.

I didn't get the impression that Gavinor was comfortable with the voidspren. I feel that would have looked like the voidspren taking horrific forms of melting faces while the child giggled and clapped. That would come off as comfortable to me. 

On 2/2/2020 at 7:19 PM, lccaseiro58 said:

Dalinar is already high king of Urithiru and the shattered plains and as long the alethi highprinces are in Dalinar territory they are under his command, which technically also makes him king of Alethkar. This was Elhokar proclamation in chapter 12 of OB, which he sign before leaving to Kholinar.

The proclamation also states that the king of Alethkar is a vassal to the high king. The document itself wasn't revealed but i assume Jasnah as queen is under the same conditions.

This raises the question, who is Dalinar successor?

If we go by the traditional method, Adolin would be the heir but Urithiru is the city of Radiants so it makes sense that the heir has to be a Radiant. So is Renarin the heir to Urithiru or do you think the Radiants would want another way to choose their king?

I agree with OP that Kaladin leadership skills and social views would make him more likely to be the next king after Dalinar dies or ascends or whatever.

 

On 2/2/2020 at 7:37 PM, Bearer of Agonies said:

Most likely, Dalinar's successor as ruler of Urithiru would be another Bondsmith. If, somehow, there is no Bondsmith, I see a Radiant council being in charge. This could even be the case when there is a Bondsmith, with the Bondsmith overseeing a group of senior Radiants. However, without a Bondsmith, if there can only be one leader, then the Windrunner leader (Kaladin) might be in charge because of their Protect/Lead attributes. But a council seems more likely.

So this is for iccaseiro58 and Bearer of Agonies (having trouble tagging you both). Regarding the highking and how it will function or at least how it was intended to function:

 

Oathbringer page 140

"Dalinar Kholin. I swear to you now. There are princes and highprinces. Why not kings and highkings? I give an oath, immutable and witnessed, that I accept you as my monarch. As Alethkar is to me, I am to you"

......(to denote skipping general convo to the next pertinent portion)

Elhokar pulled his arm free and rubbed it. "Won't even let me abdicate with dignity"

"You're not abdicating." Navani said "Elhokar, you intend to shove your uncle into a position above you. He's right to ask. What will this mean for Alethkar"

"I..." Elhokar swallowed "He should give up his lands to his heir. Dalinar is a king of somewhere else, after all. Dalinar, Highking of Urithiru, maybe the Shattered Plains." He stood straighter, speaking more certainly "Dalinar must stay out of the direct management of my lands. he can give me commands, but I decide how to see them accomplished"

"I can accept these terms, though at times I might need to give commands to your highprinces."

"As long as they're in your domain" Elhokar said, a hint of stubborness to his voice "I consider them under your authority. While they visit Urithiru or the Shattered Plains, command as you wish. When they return to my kingdom, you must go through me"

"Very well" Dalinar said "Though we need to work this out with scribes before we make the change officially. And before we go too far, we should make certain there is still an Alethkar for you to rule"

 

So first and foremost, the details were never hammered out nor announced. So there is nothing legally binding to Jasnah as of yet. I do believe she will agree with it, and hash out the terms with Dalinar, but it was never official, neither privately nor publicly. Secondly although Dalinar can command the highprinces while within his domain if need be, it does not make Dalinar king of Alethkar. The whole purpose of this was for him to divest himself from Alethkar. The ruling of the kingdom was to be under Elhokar. And commands Dalinar gave, it was up to Elhokar on how he would carry them out. But Alethkar was still very much Elhokar's kingdom. This is also especially nebulous as Dalinar said to first confirm there would be a land for Elhokar to rule. Now that Alethkar is an occupied state, I would imagine there would be some provisions since the bulk of Alethekar is currently situated at Urithiru. Though for myself all of this is moot as Jasnah already willingly works with Dalinar, and Dalinar trusts Jasnah's rule (he stated when he planned to abdicate back in Way of Kings that he wished she was around, so she could look out for Adolin and he said he trusts Jasnah implicitly.)

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I feel many of you misinterpret my OP (and even I got sidetracked earlier). Kaladin becomes King because he engineers the Singer-human peace. Alethi don’t get to unilaterally choose him. I speculate Kaladin is the only person both Singers and humans trust and can agree on. Dalinar IMO will not be a candidate. That is not his role.

On 2/4/2020 at 8:09 AM, Pathfinder said:

So first and foremost, at least for myself, I am not arguing that Kaladin does not display leadership qualities. I just personally do not think those leadership qualities lend itself to kingship, or being a successful ruler. Kaladin has said multiple times he has trouble thinking/dealing with the bigger picture. For example when focusing on his bridge crew to the detriment of the rest of the army. And that is not the only time he has done that. I guess what I, and a few other people are saying is we see Kaladin as more of a direct military leader, than a ruler. But again as I posted before, I am not saying it is not possible. Just I personally do not think it will happen. I wish you luck!

You’re very gracious, thank you. @Karger and @agrabes agree with you.

Kaladin so far has the most volatile arc of any SLA character. He enters adulthood a surgeon’s assistant. In turn he becomes a spearman, a leader of spearman; a slave, a leader of slaves; a bridgeman, a leader of bridgemen; a battalion captain, and now Windrunner leader. Kaladin already learns generalship from Adolin. We’re only in Book 3. Like Dalinar he rises and falls – and each time rises higher. That’s an important SLA theme.

There are many reasons Kaladin may never become King. Lack of leadership talent or skill IMO won’t be one of them. He will have the next five to seven books of experience to learn how to rule.

On 2/1/2020 at 3:39 PM, Karger said:

We have no idea who set up the ideals or how they connect. 

On 2/3/2020 at 2:49 PM, agrabes said:

You are right that cultural ideas do manifest as radiant spren.  That doesn't mean that the "Divine Attributes" are magical or 100% binding on the radiants or that they manifest in the exact same way every time. 

This debate reminds me of the line from Cool Hand Luke: “What we have here is a failure to communicate.” We agree there’s nothing “magical” about the Divine Attributes themselves. We agree they are not “100% binding on the radiants [nor] manifest in the exact same way every time.” We don’t know “who set up the ideals or how they connect.” I acknowledge the Divine Attributes are culturally determined and arbitrary.

BUT – for whatever reason these are the ideals that become Invested. Radiant spren personify Primary Divine Attributes, and these Invested Attributes (the Radiant spren) are essential to Surgebinding. In that sense culture on Roshar does make the Invested Divine Attributes magical. If you don’t see this, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

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On 2/7/2020 at 5:57 PM, Confused said:

This debate reminds me of the line from Cool Hand Luke: “What we have here is a failure to communicate.” We agree there’s nothing “magical” about the Divine Attributes themselves. We agree they are not “100% binding on the radiants [nor] manifest in the exact same way every time.” We don’t know “who set up the ideals or how they connect.” I acknowledge the Divine Attributes are culturally determined and arbitrary.

BUT – for whatever reason these are the ideals that become Invested. Radiant spren personify Primary Divine Attributes, and these Invested Attributes (the Radiant spren) are essential to Surgebinding. In that sense culture on Roshar does make the Invested Divine Attributes magical. If you don’t see this, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

I think where we get apart is that you seem to be implying two things that I don't think are correct: 1) A radiant must be a perfect (or very high quality) embodiment of the divine attributes in order to stay a radiant and be able to use surge binding, and 2) The divine attribute of a radiant must be that character's greatest strength or primary character trait in order for them to be a radiant of that order.

Both implications have the same response.  The radiant must have that trait to some extent, but it's not been shown that they must be very strong in that trait.  The spren do search for people with the qualities described in the divine attributes.  For example, Honor spren search for people who have the trait of Leadership capability.  However, I don't believe that it is a requirement that that trait be the defining characteristic of the radiant, or even their greatest strength.  The easy example is Lopen.  He does have some leadership capability or he couldn't have been selected as a Windrunner, but I don't think that anyone would say that leadership is Lopen's greatest strength.  That seems to be cheering people up, caring for people, supporting people emotionally based lessons learned in his own life experiences, etc.  Lopen, imo, would be a more natural fit as an Edgedancer.  So it seems silly to say that just because he was selected as a Windrunner he is a high quality example of leadership.  I don't believe that you can only be selected as a Windrunner if you are an amazing leader (or protector).

I guess this is all a point to say that just because Kaladin is a Windrunner and has the divine attribute of "Leadership" does not mean that he is suited to be "High King" over humans and Parsh.  He might be the one that could be trusted by both sides (possibly) but I still don't think he would be the best candidate.  I don't know that there would be a High King selected over Humans and Parsh together, but if there is one I think it will be either a Bondsmith (not necessarily Dalinar) or a non-Radiant and non-Alethi.

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Hey, @agrabes. Let’s recap how we got here:

  • You and others questioned my comment that Kaladin as Windrunner head is a “leader of leaders.” Pathfinder focused on the Windrunner military role as scouts.
  • I responded that the Windrunner Secondary Divine Attribute is Leading.
  • Karger then said, “Divine attributes are what you want them to be. They [are] cultural not magical and based on hearsay.”
  • I replied that on Roshar, a world of living ideas, culture makes the Divine Attributes magical. Radiant spren are Invested Primary Divine Attributes.

You now say,

On 2/10/2020 at 9:17 AM, agrabes said:

I think where we get apart is that you seem to be implying two things that I don't think are correct: 1) A radiant must be a perfect (or very high quality) embodiment of the divine attributes in order to stay a radiant and be able to use surge binding, and 2) The divine attribute of a radiant must be that character's greatest strength or primary character trait in order for them to be a radiant of that order.

I don’t think I imply either of your statements. Like you, I disagree with both of them. I view the Primary Divine Attributes as the ones that attract Radiant spren. For Windrunners, it is Protecting not Leading. Lopen in his way emotionally Protects people. Syl comes to Kaladin because he exudes the compulsive need to Protect. Other Windrunners share this Protecting trait at some level of intensity. I agree Protecting need not be their “greatest strength or primary character trait.” Brandon says proximity to Radiant spren helps; and Windrunners as a group attract honorspren.

I view the Secondary Divine Attributes like Leading as the aspirational ones. IMO, as a Windrunner shows more Leading ability they progress through their oaths (and rise in the ranks) until, at the fifth oath, the Spiritual aspects of the Windrunner and honorspren merge. The Windrunner then fully embodies their Secondary Divine Attribute of Leading. I envision a five-tier pyramid of Windrunners, with the base consisting of 1st oath-ers and the top with maybe one 5th oath-er – likely Kaladin. That pyramid structure explains my comment, Kaladin is a “leader of leaders.”

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14 hours ago, Confused said:

Hey, @agrabes. Let’s recap how we got here:

  • You and others questioned my comment that Kaladin as Windrunner head is a “leader of leaders.” Pathfinder focused on the Windrunner military role as scouts.
  • I responded that the Windrunner Secondary Divine Attribute is Leading.
  • Karger then said, “Divine attributes are what you want them to be. They [are] cultural not magical and based on hearsay.”
  • I replied that on Roshar, a world of living ideas, culture makes the Divine Attributes magical. Radiant spren are Invested Primary Divine Attributes.

You now say,

I don’t think I imply either of your statements. Like you, I disagree with both of them. I view the Primary Divine Attributes as the ones that attract Radiant spren. For Windrunners, it is Protecting not Leading. Lopen in his way emotionally Protects people. Syl comes to Kaladin because he exudes the compulsive need to Protect. Other Windrunners share this Protecting trait at some level of intensity. I agree Protecting need not be their “greatest strength or primary character trait.” Brandon says proximity to Radiant spren helps; and Windrunners as a group attract honorspren.

I view the Secondary Divine Attributes like Leading as the aspirational ones. IMO, as a Windrunner shows more Leading ability they progress through their oaths (and rise in the ranks) until, at the fifth oath, the Spiritual aspects of the Windrunner and honorspren merge. The Windrunner then fully embodies their Secondary Divine Attribute of Leading. I envision a five-tier pyramid of Windrunners, with the base consisting of 1st oath-ers and the top with maybe one 5th oath-er – likely Kaladin. That pyramid structure explains my comment, Kaladin is a “leader of leaders.”

I think what you're saying right now makes sense.  I may have been misinterpreting you earlier.  What I was questioning wasn't that Kaladin could become a leader of leaders, I'm questioning that Kaladin's properties as a Windrunner are any reason to suspect he would become a High King.  I don't believe that being a Windrunner is a sign that you are going to be a good political leader.  That said you do have a point that Jezrien was the herald of the Windrunner order and also called the "Herald of Kings" so it may be right to say he would become a king.

I was also questioning the nature of the divine attributes, but I think that was the part that was a misunderstanding.

What I was getting at earlier, and I think what Karger was getting at, is that I don't believe the Divine Attributes are firm/inflexible criteria.  I believe that people who only marginally meet the criteria, or meet them in an unusual way can become radiants.  I also believe that just by possessing those attributes does not automatically mean you will become a radiant of that order.  I also do think that different Rosharan cultures will disagree on what it means to possess those qualities, so someone an Alethi would consider a good candidate for a Windrunner might be different than what an Azish would consider a good candidate.  I think that while the spren do search for qualities, it's also relative to the culture and even the individual.  I.e. if a person sincerely feels they are doing an honorable action, then even if most other people would consider it dishonorable, the spren would consider it honorable.  This has been shown several times in the series - Szeth's unlawful assassinations still accepted by High Spren (but hated by most of the Skybreakers) because he felt he was duty bound to do them, Syl told Kaladin that him killing Elhokar would be wrong because he thought it was wrong, etc.  That's what I meant by saying they aren't "magical" - probably a bad choice or words when describing something that is literally magic.  

Anyway, we don't need to drag this out, thanks for the good discussion!

 

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16 hours ago, Confused said:

I view the Secondary Divine Attributes like Leading as the aspirational ones. IMO, as a Windrunner shows more Leading ability they progress through their oaths (and rise in the ranks) until, at the fifth oath, the Spiritual aspects of the Windrunner and honorspren merge. The Windrunner then fully embodies their Secondary Divine Attribute of Leading. I envision a five-tier pyramid of Windrunners, with the base consisting of 1st oath-ers and the top with maybe one 5th oath-er – likely Kaladin. That pyramid structure explains my comment, Kaladin is a “leader of leaders.”

My one disconnect on this particular part is the idea that (and if I misrepresent you, I apologize in advance) there would only be one 5th oathed radiant in the windrunners. Nale said there hadn't been a 5th oathed knight for the skybreakers in centuries, but considering the leader of the order (Nale) and how he has been acting, it does not surprise me that those that follow him would be stymied in their progression. They view the way Nale does things, as the right way to do things, when the reality is he is wrong. Now it could be said he is a fifth oathed radiant, so he must be doing something right, but I think he reached that level prior to degrading as much as he has, as well as becoming the law could now give him more leeway in how he acts while still maintaining the bond. A leeway the lower oathed radiants would not have. Further I would figure that if all the orders had only one 5th oathed radiant at a time, then the bondsmiths to me dispute that.

If it was only the windrunners that had a 5th oathed radiant, then I would imagine we would have gotten some hints of that in the novels. True it could potentially be revealed when or if one day Kaladin attains the fifth oath (which I do not think will necessarily happen, we have WoB that not all radiants fully progressed all the way through their oaths and also mentioned in book regarding the surgebinder that could not progress in the demanding self truths of the lightweavers) that only one windrunner gets to that level, but another thing wouldn't make sense to me then. Two windrunners can and have disagreed on oaths. One would feel an action would break an oath, while another could feel it was completely in line with the oaths. We also know windrunners can swear different worded oaths. Same basic idea, but the rest is extremely personal. So why would such an extremely personal experience be limited to one person at a time to reach its conclusion?

So for myself, I feel potentially there should be able to be multiple 5th oathed windrunner radiants. And if there should be multiple, does that mean they get to be kings of everywhere on Roshar? Also by your statement a fifth oathed radiant would be a "leader of leaders", then among the fifth oathed windrunners, who gets to be the "leader of leaders?" They are all the same level. So it is an accomplishment measurement? Because the parsh and the humans look to Kaladin (in your theory), then the other 5th oathed radiants say "hey lets follow him!". 

Also I just had an additional idea. If being a 5th oathed radiant means you are the leader of leaders, and should be king, then why hasn't there been a "cultural more" passed down through the ages regarding specifically blue eyed individuals? We know lighteyes have a right to rule because radiants get glowing eyes, and they passed it down to their children, and those children associated lighteyes with divine power, and stretched it to divine right to rule. But if windrunners always ended up rulers, then shouldn't lighteyes with blue eyes be considered extra royalty? Paid extra deference? 

All of this isn't meant as an attack on your theory. Just how my brain worked through it and why I feel it doesn't fit for me. I wish you luck!

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Also think Kaladin's endgame is to become the King of Alethkar (while Dalinar will become the Ascended Keeper of Roshar or even Cosmere scale of entity) until Brandon will decide to break his pedestal in the process.

Protect and lead are Windrunner's ideals. We have already saw protective side of them. Leading - and im talking about it meaning Leading with big L - not so much.

I think 4 and 5 books will show us much more of that and i think Book 5 will end with Kaladin as the King and Dalinar as an Ascended Entity, so Brandon can focus on new main characters for the next 5 books.

And personally me - im a sucker for protagonist classic Glorious Ending. And i think in the Book 4 Kaladin will end up pretty low just to elevate himself in the end of Book 5. All glorious, shining, epic and badass.

I believe Brandon also tends to follow classic routes to oppose George Martin'esque type of character arcs.

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  • 3 weeks later...
On 1/31/2020 at 8:28 PM, Confused said:

“He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!” [WoK Chapter 53 Epigraph (italics added).]

I quite like the interpretation of this death rattle - whether or not it means that Kal is destined to be King of Alethkar or Urithiru or Roshar, I do like the idea that it points to a low-born or darkeyes being thrust into the position of king. And we do have the WoB that says that there is a hidden ending to the whole series smushed somewhere in the first two books like the Mistborn Era 1 ending being mentioned in the epigraphs of the Final Empire. 

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