King Kaladin the Peace-Blessed

[Confused]

Jezrien is dead. Jezrien was a king before he became a herald. He was a “Windrunner” before there were Windrunners. Leadership is the Windrunner Secondary Divine Attribute. Kaladin is a Windrunner who leads the Windrunners. That makes Kaladin the “leader of leaders.” I believe he may ultimately replace Jezrien and become King of Alethkar: “He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!” [WoK Chapter 53 Epigraph (italics added).]

Kaladin sympathizes with the Singers and wants to protect everyone including them. SLA’s narrative IMO points to a human-Singer treaty and a strifeless Roshar. (Unite them – one of many meanings.) I won’t speculate how or when that happens or what happens to Rayse/Odium and the Fused. But to me, human-Singer rapprochement is inevitable.

I believe Kaladin will be at the forefront of that truce. Kal wants to stop the killing. He sees the war from both sides. The “Singer Bridge Four” (Moash, Khen, and their group) respects Kal, as does Rlain. I believe Venli will also respect him, especially when she learns he was the human strong enough to wound Eshonai. After Rayse/Odium’s defeat, Kaladin may be the only person both sides trust to lead the reconstruction.

What of Dalinar, you say? Dalinar by then may have fully ascended. If he remains a Bondsmith, his Divine Attributes are pious/guiding. A Bondsmith provides moral direction, not political leadership. And Jasnah? If my musings turn out true, Jasnah will die or maybe abdicate to go off somewhere with Hoid.

I can’t imagine Kaladin happy in a political role. It’s hard to imagine him happy at all. But he may feel compelled to rule if necessary to protect everyone immediately post-war. Kaladin may follow Jezrien’s footsteps as both “Windrunner” and king: King Kaladin the Peace-Blessed!

It could happen.

[Pathfinder]

4 minutes ago, Confused said:

Jezrien is dead. Jezrien was a king before he became a herald. He was a “Windrunner” before there were Windrunners. Leadership is the Windrunner Secondary Divine Attribute. Kaladin is a Windrunner who leads the Windrunners. That makes Kaladin the “leader of leaders.” I believe he may ultimately replace Jezrien and become King of Alethkar: “He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!” [WoK Chapter 53 Epigraph (italics added).]

Kaladin sympathizes with the Singers and wants to protect everyone including them. SLA’s narrative IMO points to a human-Singer treaty and a strifeless Roshar. (Unite them – one of many meanings.) I won’t speculate how or when that happens or what happens to Rayse/Odium and the Fused. But to me, human-Singer rapprochement is inevitable.

I believe Kaladin will be at the forefront of that truce. Kal wants to stop the killing. He sees the war from both sides. The “Singer Bridge Four” (Moash, Khen, and their group) respects Kal, as does Rlain. I believe Venli will also respect him, especially when she learns he was the human strong enough to wound Eshonai. After Rayse/Odium’s defeat, Kaladin may be the only person both sides trust to lead the reconstruction.

What of Dalinar, you say? Dalinar by then may have fully ascended. If he remains a Bondsmith, his Divine Attributes are pious/guiding. A Bondsmith provides moral direction, not political leadership. And Jasnah? If my musings turn out true, Jasnah will die or maybe abdicate to go off somewhere with Hoid.

I can’t imagine Kaladin happy in a political role. It’s hard to imagine him happy at all. But he may feel compelled to rule if necessary to protect everyone immediately post-war. Kaladin may follow Jezrien’s footsteps as both “Windrunner” and king: King Kaladin the Peace-Blessed!

It could happen.

So first and foremost i am not saying it couldnt happen. Just saying my own thoughts on the matter and why i think them. 

Windrunners are the scouts/shock troops of the radiants. That doesnt come off as rulers to me. True jezerien was a king and called herald of kings, but his radiant order for myself seems to be scout/mobile infantry.

Elhokar already has an heir in Gavinor. So my expectation is for him to take over rulership after jasnah. Jasnah i could see world hopping when gavinor comes of age

Side note, just curious, why do you think jasnah is going to die?

[Quantus]

4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So first and foremost i am not saying it couldnt happen. Just saying my own thoughts on the matter and why i think them. 

Windrunners are the scouts/shock troops of the radiants. That doesnt come off as rulers to me. True jezerien was a king and called herald of kings, but his radiant order for myself seems to be scout/mobile infantry.

Elhokar already has an heir in Gavinor. So my expectation is for him to take over rulership after jasnah. Jasnah i could see world hopping when gavinor comes of age

Side note, just curious, why do you think jasnah is going to die?

Historically Scouts and Shock troops are about as far opposites as you see on the battlefield, why do you pair them on the Windrunners? The Scout role fits, but Shock Troops are usually more heavily devastating than that.  I see it as fitting Dustrbingers far better from a purely thematic role.   And by power-set the Skybreakers more since they have Division with gravitation for all the same mobility, plus the (if imnot mistaken?) same extra Squire Advantage that Windrunners get.  

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Historically Scouts and Shock troops are about as far opposites as you see on the battlefield, why do you pair them on the Windrunners? The Scout role fits, but Shock Troops are usually more heavily devastating than that.  I see it as fitting Dustrbingers far better from a purely thematic role.   And by power-set the Skybreakers more since they have Division with gravitation for all the same mobility, plus the (if imnot mistaken?) same extra Squire Advantage that Windrunners get.  

So my use of shock troops were more in line with the idea of them being able to fly to places under attack, to hold the enemy till more dedicated forces could arrive. My intended focus was on the scouting portion of my statement, which was derived from this WoB:

 

Questioner

Is there anything about the Stonewards that you can share that's not a RAFO? I know they're coming later.

Brandon Sanderson

They are coming later, so not really. They were more of the Knights Radiant front line troops, as opposed to the Windrunners who were scouts. But you probably already knew that.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

 

edit: where did you hear skybreakers get the same resonance as windrunners? Not saying you are wrong or challenging you. Just wanting to learn something new.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+asmodeus]

23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So first and foremost i am not saying it couldnt happen. Just saying my own thoughts on the matter and why i think them. 

Windrunners are the scouts/shock troops of the radiants. That doesnt come off as rulers to me. True jezerien was a king and called herald of kings, but his radiant order for myself seems to be scout/mobile infantry.

Elhokar already has an heir in Gavinor. So my expectation is for him to take over rulership after jasnah. Jasnah i could see world hopping when gavinor comes of age

Side note, just curious, why do you think jasnah is going to die?

 

14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Historically Scouts and Shock troops are about as far opposites as you see on the battlefield, why do you pair them on the Windrunners? The Scout role fits, but Shock Troops are usually more heavily devastating than that.  I see it as fitting Dustrbingers far better from a purely thematic role.   And by power-set the Skybreakers more since they have Division with gravitation for all the same mobility, plus the (if imnot mistaken?) same extra Squire Advantage that Windrunners get.  

Not OP, but what the Windrunners do with their abilities and who the Windrunners are as people are two distinct things.

I would very much argue that Windrunners, by character archetype, are very much natural leaders - they are the people who naturally attract followers and forge strong bonds between them. One only needs to look at what Kaladin manages to do throughout the entirety of the three books - first, with his OG team in chapter one in WoK, then with the slaves in his escape attempts, then with Bridge 4, with Sah and the Parshmen, with the wall guard, etc.

I don't really agree with the whole of OP's theory, but on the Leader thing, they aren't completely wrong.

Edited January 31, 2020 by asmodeus

[Zachary Holbrook]

Also, the 'Singer Bridge Four' is mostly dead and were scorned by other singers even before the devastation at Kholinar. So Kaladin has a long way to go before being able to win the trust of the majority of the singers.

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

 

Not OP, but what the Windrunners do with their abilities and who the Windrunners are as people are two distinct things.

I would very much argue that Windrunners, by character archetype, are very much natural leaders - they are the people who naturally attract followers and forge strong bonds between them. One only needs to look at what Kaladin manages to do throughout the entirety of the three books - first, with his OG team in chapter one in WoK, then with the slaves in his escape attempts, then with Bridge 4, with Sah and the Parshmen, with the wall guard, etc.

I don't really agree with the whole of OP's theory, but on the Leader thing, they aren't completely wrong.

Sorry, it was not my intent to say windrunners are not leaders at all. I was just saying just because the herald of their order was a king, does not (to me) indicate that the members of the order will tend to be rulers. That I referenced in past desolations as per Brandon, they were scouting troops. Not rulers of nations. I was just saying for myself, whether Kaladin rules Alethkar or not is not connected to the windrunner order due to their founding herald. Which is why I elaborated that Gavinor, Elhokar's heir would make more sense to me to take over from Jasnah when he comes to age. But totally not intending to say that windrunners don't attract people and have a large membership. I just don't see the order in and of itself as rulers of nations. They seem to be scouts to me. Scouts that can protect and lead the people they arrive to save. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Nuatoma]

Well, I do love Kaladin and really wouldn't mind seeing him take this role (and thus seeing the necessary growth in him that this theory would entail), but I just don't get this from reading about him.  I do believe he is a good leader, as asmodeus pointed out in his examples, but I see those on the smaller scale, leading close knit groups rather than large factions of people.  I see Kaladin as becoming a legendary hero and fighter rather than King of Roshar.

 

[Karger]

I really do not think Kaladin is going to be king.  That is both a major cliche and it does not really make any sense according to the political realities in current Roshar.  Considering the shear number of people that would have to die but at the same time the political system of alethkar would have to stay intact I really don't see this happening.

[Confused]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Windrunners are the scouts/shock troops of the radiants. That doesnt come off as rulers to me. True jezerien was a king and called herald of kings, but his radiant order for myself seems to be scout/mobile infantry.

The Windrunners’ Secondary Divine Attribute is leadership. The fact that potential Radiants all seek Bridge Four lends credence to the OP.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Elhokar already has an heir in Gavinor. So my expectation is for him to take over rulership after jasnah. Jasnah i could see world hopping when gavinor comes of age

Odium has influenced Gavinor for as long as he has influenced Aesudan. I believe Gavinor is now Odium’s creature. If he ever does become Alethkar’s king, Gavinor will not last long in that role. This may explain the OP’s quoted epigraph’s first sentence: “He must pick it up, the fallen title!”

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Side note, just curious, why do you think jasnah is going to die?

I don’t necessarily. She could abdicate. But she can’t remain Queen for Kaladin (or anyone else) to reign.

51 minutes ago, asmodeus said:

I don't really agree with the whole of OP's theory, but on the Leader thing, they aren't completely wrong.

Wow! Gee thanks! The OP is speculative fluff with only a remote chance of coming true. I don’t think “right or wrong” enters into it. But it’s good to know you think I’m not “completely wrong!” Ironically, the idea of Kaladin fostering a Singer-human peace seems to me much more likely than Kaladin's kingship. 

54 minutes ago, Zachary Holbrook said:

Also, the 'Singer Bridge Four' is mostly dead and were scorned by other singers even before the devastation at Kholinar. So Kaladin has a long way to go before being able to win the trust of the majority of the singers.

Moash, Khen, Nam, Pal, and a “handful” of others survived. Their palace assault earned them the “Passion of Mercy,” freeing them from slavery. (OB, Chapter 122, Kindle p. 1222.) The actual Bridge Four also suffered horrible losses. Yes, Kaladin has a long way to go to win Singer trust – the war must first end. We’re books away.

26 minutes ago, Karger said:

Considering the shear number of people that would have to die but at the same time the political system of alethkar would have to stay intact I really don't see this happening.

If Jasnah abdicates and a corrupted Gavinor replaced, I don’t see that a “sheer” number of people would have to die. And it’s pretty obvious the political system of Alethkar will not stay intact. Governments in exile during war rarely return to the same situation they left. France, for example, founded its Fourth Republic after WW II. (They’re now on their Fifth, following a 1958 failed military coup.)

[Quantus]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So my use of shock troops were more in line with the idea of them being able to fly to places under attack, to hold the enemy till more dedicated forces could arrive. My intended focus was on the scouting portion of my statement, which was derived from this WoB:

 

Questioner

Is there anything about the Stonewards that you can share that's not a RAFO? I know they're coming later.

Brandon Sanderson

They are coming later, so not really. They were more of the Knights Radiant front line troops, as opposed to the Windrunners who were scouts. But you probably already knew that.

Skyward Atlanta signing (Nov. 17, 2018)

 

edit: where did you hear skybreakers get the same resonance as windrunners? Not saying you are wrong or challenging you. Just wanting to learn something new.

Ah, cool.  Ya, that WOB is along the lines I was thinking. WIndrunners as scouts and Advanced troops makes sense, but "shock troops" as I know them were usually the front line, High Losses group (also typically  superior training and equipment), adn were often Heavy Armor folks.  That just fits my ideas/guesses about Stonewards much better.

 

As far as the Skybreaker thing goes, I dont know where it came from and am not at all sure of it. I thought I recalled that being said once, but the more I look at it the more I think that might have just been a carry-over from when we found out that some Orders got Squires and some did not, and were told that Skybreaker specifically were one that got squires (before it was later confirmed in OB).  So I think I may have been confusing "Gets Squires" with "Gets Enhanced Squires". And it wouldnt really make sense if the Windrunner thing is a resonance, I have to assume that two different Surge combo's will never get the same exact result.  

[Pathfinder]

58 minutes ago, Confused said:

The Windrunners’ Secondary Divine Attribute is leadership. The fact that potential Radiants all seek Bridge Four lends credence to the OP.

Odium has influenced Gavinor for as long as he has influenced Aesudan. I believe Gavinor is now Odium’s creature. If he ever does become Alethkar’s king, Gavinor will not last long in that role. This may explain the OP’s quoted epigraph’s first sentence: “He must pick it up, the fallen title!”

I don’t necessarily. She could abdicate. But she can’t remain Queen for Kaladin (or anyone else) to reign.

Wow! Gee thanks! The OP is speculative fluff with only a remote chance of coming true. I don’t think “right or wrong” enters into it. But it’s good to know you think I’m not “completely wrong!” Ironically, the idea of Kaladin fostering a Singer-human peace seems to me much more likely than Kaladin's kingship. 

Moash, Khen, Nam, Pal, and a “handful” of others survived. Their palace assault earned them the “Passion of Mercy,” freeing them from slavery. (OB, Chapter 122, Kindle p. 1222.) The actual Bridge Four also suffered horrible losses. Yes, Kaladin has a long way to go to win Singer trust – the war must first end. We’re books away.

If Jasnah abdicates and a corrupted Gavinor replaced, I don’t see that a “sheer” number of people would have to die. And it’s pretty obvious the political system of Alethkar will not stay intact. Governments in exile during war rarely return to the same situation they left. France, for example, founded its Fourth Republic after WW II. (They’re now on their Fifth, following a 1958 failed military coup.)

Something is weird going on with the site so I am unable to respond separately to each of your points, so I will line them up the same as you did so you will know which is regarding which

Sorry, as I clarified to asmodeus, it was never my intention to say windrunners did not have the attribute of leadership. My intention was, for myself, just because their herald is a king, does not mean windrunners end up kings, and that is especially so for myself when Brandon has said the order on whole functioned as scouts. Now could individuals end up as kings? Sure! But just for myself, I do not feel the two are connected. 

True an Odium spren was harassing a scared little boy, but that is not necessarily Odium's influence to me. You can totally think that, and I respect that, but I don't. As to "He must pick it up, the fallen title!" I always took it as the title "knight radiant". Which ultimately he did. I didn't feel it was associated with any kingship. 

I guess for myself I don't see the need for Kaladin to reign at all. He leads his troops, which for myself satisfies the leadership part of the windrunners. But like i said initially, it could happen. personally I don't think it will, but I totally acknowledge it could happen, and I wish you luck with your theory. 

Now to skip to the last point, personally I don't think Gavinor is necessarily corrupted. Also even if he was and became an issue, Jasnah, Dalinar, Adolin, or Renarin would step up in place as per the line of succession. There is also more (to me) separating Kaladin from ruling Alethkar than just those four people. There are also the other highprinces to consider as well as a host of other issues. 

53 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Ah, cool.  Ya, that WOB is along the lines I was thinking. WIndrunners as scouts and Advanced troops makes sense, but "shock troops" as I know them were usually the front line, High Losses group (also typically  superior training and equipment), adn were often Heavy Armor folks.  That just fits my ideas/guesses about Stonewards much better.

 

As far as the Skybreaker thing goes, I dont know where it came from and am not at all sure of it. I thought I recalled that being said once, but the more I look at it the more I think that might have just been a carry-over from when we found out that some Orders got Squires and some did not, and were told that Skybreaker specifically were one that got squires (before it was later confirmed in OB).  So I think I may have been confusing "Gets Squires" with "Gets Enhanced Squires". And it wouldnt really make sense if the Windrunner thing is a resonance, I have to assume that two different Surge combo's will never get the same exact result.  

Sorry, didn't intend to confuse things with the shock troop use

Ah gotcha regarding the skybreakers. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Confused said:

The Windrunners’ Secondary Divine Attribute is leadership. The fact that potential Radiants all seek Bridge Four lends credence to the OP.

Divine attributes are what you want them to be.  They a cultural not magical and based on hearsay.  Personally I see them more as middle management then full on kings.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

Odium has influenced Gavinor for as long as he has influenced Aesudan

That was a spren and Gavinor was a toddler.  Also no he has not.  Aesudan willingly sought out the power.  Gavinor was just sort of swept up in it.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

I don’t necessarily. She could abdicate. But she can’t remain Queen for Kaladin (or anyone else) to reign.

That reasoning is circular.  Jasnah could just remain queen.  In fact she is pretty clearly the most qualified person in the world so I am going to say she should remain queen for the foreseeable future.

1 hour ago, Confused said:

If Jasnah abdicates and a corrupted Gavinor replaced, I don’t see that a “sheer” number of people would have to die. And it’s pretty obvious the political system of Alethkar will not stay intact. Governments in exile during war rarely return to the same situation they left. France, for example, founded its Fourth Republic after WW II. (They’re now on their Fifth, following a 1958 failed military coup.)

Gavilar is a baby who was tormented by spren who delighted in petty cruelty.  We have no evidence whatsoever of corruption taking place.

[Frustration]

10 hours ago, Confused said:

Jezrien is dead. Jezrien was a king before he became a herald. He was a “Windrunner” before there were Windrunners. Leadership is the Windrunner Secondary Divine Attribute. Kaladin is a Windrunner who leads the Windrunners. That makes Kaladin the “leader of leaders.” I believe he may ultimately replace Jezrien and become King of Alethkar: “He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, and the spear!” [WoK Chapter 53 Epigraph (italics added).]

 

The Title is Honor, The Tower Uritiru  The crown the Shard, the spear is Syl. Kal will not be a king, but a Shard.

[Confused]

6 hours ago, Karger said:

Divine attributes are what you want them to be.  They a cultural not magical and based on hearsay.  Personally I see them more as middle management then full on kings.

No, no, and no. I’ve had this debate often (probably at some point with you). Divine attributes are cultural, but on Roshar that makes them magical. Roshar is a world of living ideas. Cultural ideals like Protecting, Just, Brave, etc. become Invested as Radiant spren. Human manifestation of the Primary Divine Attributes attracts Radiant spren. Divine Attributes are an important magical component of Surgebinding without which there would be no Radiant spren as we know them.

Could Rosharans have come up with a different set of ideals? Of course. They are arbitrary. But once Rosharans collectively accept those ideals – which is how they see the Heraldic virtues – then those ideals take life in the Cognitive Realm.

Regardless, my point is that a man who IN FACT shows incredible leadership skills that match his Order’s Divine Attribute is more likely than someone else to assume the leadership role of King. As I said in the OP, Kaladin as leader of the Windrunners is a leader of leaders.

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

As to "He must pick it up, the fallen title!" I always took it as the title "knight radiant". Which ultimately he did. I didn't feel it was associated with any kingship. 

The key words are the “tower and the crown.” That is the House Kholin glyphpair (except for Elhokar, who replaces the tower with a sword). [WoK, Chapter 28, Kindle p. 420.) The Kholin family rules Alethkar. That suggests (to me) that the “fallen title” is King. Since the Chapter 53 Epigraph adds “spear” to the glyphpair, it makes sense (to me) that Kaladin is the one who picks up the fallen title of Alethkar’s king.

And, @Karger, I don’t pretend to be the first (or n^th) to promote Kaladin’s future kingship. The thrust of my post is that Kaladin will be the one who ends the Singer-human war and brings peace to Roshar. All hail, Kaladin Peace-Blessed! It’s obvious Zahel/Vasher/Peacegiver suggests the name!

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

True an Odium spren was harassing a scared little boy, but that is not necessarily Odium's influence to me.

7 hours ago, Karger said:

Gavilar is a baby who was tormented by spren who delighted in petty cruelty.  We have no evidence whatsoever of corruption taking place.

Of course there’s no evidence. That’s why the OP is speculative fluff. BUT – It strains credulity to think this was the ONLY time voidspren “tormented” Gavinor. What effect would such repeated “harassment” have on a two or three-year-old child? Here’s the scene:

Quote

Here a child—two or three years old—huddled and trembled, clutching a stuffed soldier. Several spren with soft red glows were picking at him like cremlings at a corpse. The boy tried to turn his head, and the spren pulled on the back of his hair until he looked up, while others hovered in front of his face and took horrific shapes, like horses with melting faces. [OB, Chapter 84, Kindle pp. 812-813.]

This is scary stuff for a young mind to absorb. It normalizes terror for him. I did use the word “corrupt” to describe the effect, but that connotes direct Odium influence that changes Gavinor’s Spiritual aspect like spren corruption changes theirs. I didn’t mean that, just that Odium (through his voidspren) has so messed with the kid’s head he will never be normal or capable of rule.

There’s also another interpretation: Maybe the voidspren are Gavinor’s friends. I doubt Aesudan/Yelig-nar allows her son to play with other boys. She even tells Elhokar, “He’s playing with friends.” Maybe misunderstanding, “Kaladin reacted with swift, immediate rage.” [OB, Chapter 84, Kindle pp. 812, 813 (italics in original).]

When Kaladin reaches for Gavinor to leave, “the boy screamed and scrambled away from him.” Gavinor doesn’t know Kal, and some children react poorly to strangers. Still, this seems an extreme reaction. The boy even “scooted away from his father, crying” until “Elhokar whispered something to his son [and] the child stopped weeping...blinked away tears, and finally let his father pick him up.” [OB, Chapter 84, Kindle pp. 813-814.] Elhokar probably said he was Gavinor’s father, whom the boy must not remember. Added together, the boy seems more comfortable with voidspren than humans. But who knows? Just throwing out possibilities.

[Honorless]

*background sounds of wretched sobbing & sniffing*

I'm sorry... *sniffle* I'm just so happy! To-to finally see speculation about Kaladin's future that doesn't predict him dying or getting tortured on Damnation!

[Toaster Retribution]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Jasnah could just remain queen.  In fact she is pretty clearly the most qualified person in the world so I am going to say she should remain queen for the foreseeable future.

 

Even if Jasnah is the most qualified for it (which I dont really believe) I doubt she would want the position once the war was won. She is a scholar at heart, and would probably want to dedicate herself to that when Odium is dealt with.

[Use the Falchion]

I mean...we now have kings and high-kings. So Gavinor can be king of Alethkhar and Kaladin high-king of Roshar (with his wife Jasnah the scholar-queen). 

[Karger]

On 2/1/2020 at 0:02 AM, Confused said:

). Divine attributes are cultural, but on Roshar that makes them magical

It really does not.  We have no idea who set up the ideals or how they connect. 

On 2/1/2020 at 0:02 AM, Confused said:

Could Rosharans have come up with a different set of ideals? Of course. They are arbitrary. But once Rosharans collectively accept those ideals – which is how they see the Heraldic virtues – then those ideals take life in the Cognitive Realm.

Only Vorins.  We have no idea how the Azish, Shin, or Iri see things.

On 2/1/2020 at 0:02 AM, Confused said:

Regardless, my point is that a man who IN FACT shows incredible leadership skills that match his Order’s Divine Attribute is more likely than someone else to assume the leadership role of King. As I said in the OP, Kaladin as leader of the Windrunners is a leader of leaders.

Kaladin's subordinates are not yet leaders.

On 2/1/2020 at 0:02 AM, Confused said:

This is scary stuff for a young mind to absorb. It normalizes terror for him. I did use the word “corrupt” to describe the effect, but that connotes direct Odium influence that changes Gavinor’s Spiritual aspect like spren corruption changes theirs. I didn’t mean that, just that Odium (through his voidspren) has so messed with the kid’s head he will never be normal or capable of rule.

Children have resilient minds.  He might need therapy but that does not mean that he is permanently damaged.  He seemed recognize his father and his father managed to call him down.

On 2/1/2020 at 6:46 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

Even if Jasnah is the most qualified for it (which I dont really believe)

Raises eyebrows.  She the world's foremost historian, a master politician, she successfully predicted the greatest threat to humanity in 2000 years and she is awesome.

On 2/1/2020 at 6:46 AM, Toaster Retribution said:

I doubt she would want the position once the war was won. She is a scholar at heart, and would probably want to dedicate herself to that when Odium is dealt with.

We don't actually know that about her.  She is an excellent scholar but we don't actually know what she wants out of life.  She seems equally happy shaping history as studying it.

Edited February 2, 2020 by Karger

[Toaster Retribution]

12 hours ago, Karger said:

Raises eyebrows.  She the world's foremost historian, a master politician, she successfully precipitated the greatest threat to humanity in 2000 years and she is awesome.

She is not bad, but social interaction is not her strongest suit (which she admits). And to rule you need to be good at dealing with people. Jasnah is good at dealing with people, but in a rather different sense. She is a rather controversial figure, and might piss off a bunch of her subjects, or other rulers. 

12 hours ago, Karger said:

We don't actually know that about her.  She is an excellent scholar but we don't actually know what she wants out of life.  She seems equally happy shaping history as studying it.

My read of her character is that she would prefer studying over politicking. But I might very well be wrong.

[Karger]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

She is not bad, but social interaction is not her strongest suit (which she admits). And to rule you need to be good at dealing with people

Jasnah is quite good at getting people to do what she wants.  I am not of the opinion that a great leader has to be likable.  Indeed some of the greatest presidents in US history were not well liked figures and some of the worst were incredibly popular.

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

She is a rather controversial figure, and might piss off a bunch of her subjects, or other rulers

I do not think Jasnah is stupid enough to openly piss off another monarch.  Also a ruler can't accomplish anything without making some of their people angry.  You really can't please everyone.  None of this effects her actual qualifications in the technical sense it just means she would have a harder time getting elected which thankfully is not a think in alethkar(thankfully?).

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

My read of her character is that she would prefer studying over politicking. But I might very well be wrong.

We have seen her do both.  I do not think she ever gives any indication of which she likes more.  I also think it is pretty clear she is selfless enough that if she is needed as queen she will be a queen.

[Toaster Retribution]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

Jasnah is quite good at getting people to do what she wants.  I am not of the opinion that a great leader has to be likable.  Indeed some of the greatest presidents in US history were not well liked figures and some of the worst were incredibly popular.

True. But being good with people is an advantage if you are to be a good ruler.

My point isn’t that Jasnah wont make a good ruler. It is rather that I dont think she is the best possible choice on Roshar. I think Dalinar is better, for instance. 

 

 

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Toaster Retribution said:

True. But being good with people is an advantage if you are to be a good ruler.

That really depends on the position and leadership style.  Teft has caught up to Kaladin in terms of oaths but he is not exactly a likable person personally.  Spensa notes that Cob is very difficult to work with yet he is very admired leader.

3 minutes ago, Toaster Retribution said:

My point isn’t that Jasnah wont make a good ruler. It is rather that I dont think she is the best possible choice on Roshar. I think Dalinar is better, for instance. 

Dalinar is both unavailable as a leader of alethkar and proved to be kind of bad at it in certain respects.  He made a number or mistakes that Jasnah would probably not have(Trusting Sadeas and Ameram, publicly refounding the radiants, the entire mess with his nephew just to name a few).  I do not think that Jasnah is completely without problems but in terms of experience and other more measurable forms of ranking candidates she tends to come out on top.

[Lccaseiro58]

Dalinar is already high king of Urithiru and the shattered plains and as long the alethi highprinces are in Dalinar territory they are under his command, which technically also makes him king of Alethkar. This was Elhokar proclamation in chapter 12 of OB, which he sign before leaving to Kholinar.

The proclamation also states that the king of Alethkar is a vassal to the high king. The document itself wasn't revealed but i assume Jasnah as queen is under the same conditions.

This raises the question, who is Dalinar successor?

If we go by the traditional method, Adolin would be the heir but Urithiru is the city of Radiants so it makes sense that the heir has to be a Radiant. So is Renarin the heir to Urithiru or do you think the Radiants would want another way to choose their king?

I agree with OP that Kaladin leadership skills and social views would make him more likely to be the next king after Dalinar dies or ascends or whatever.

[Zapata]

10 minutes ago, lccaseiro58 said:

Dalinar is already high king of Urithiru and the shattered plains and as long the alethi highprinces are in Dalinar territory they are under his command, which technically also makes him king of Alethkar. This was Elhokar proclamation in chapter 12 of OB, which he sign before leaving to Kholinar.

The proclamation also states that the king of Alethkar is a vassal to the high king. The document itself wasn't revealed but i assume Jasnah as queen is under the same conditions.

This raises the question, who is Dalinar successor?

If we go by the traditional method, Adolin would be the heir but Urithiru is the city of Radiants so it makes sense that the heir has to be a Radiant. So is Renarin the heir to Urithiru or do you think the Radiants would want another way to choose their king?

I agree with OP that Kaladin leadership skills and social views would make him more likely to be the next king after Dalinar dies or ascends or whatever.

Most likely, Dalinar's successor as ruler of Urithiru would be another Bondsmith. If, somehow, there is no Bondsmith, I see a Radiant council being in charge. This could even be the case when there is a Bondsmith, with the Bondsmith overseeing a group of senior Radiants. However, without a Bondsmith, if there can only be one leader, then the Windrunner leader (Kaladin) might be in charge because of their Protect/Lead attributes. But a council seems more likely.