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Aerim

How to kill a Dysian Aimian

Question

Do we know how to kill a dysian aimian? Would one have to kill each individual hordeling? If this has been discussed elsewhere I would love to be pointed to that discussion! Thanks in advance! :)

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We see a dead one in Dalinar's visions.  It looks like someone set one on fire.  This implies that doing so is possible.  To participate with full effectiveness in combat they will probably need to mass a large number of hordlings together.  So maybe wait for that and then use magic to nuke the place(more or less)?

Edited by Karger
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If you find the main... body/hive/colony you should be able to kill the Sleepless. They can presumably breed them to have higher resistances to specific effects, so some research before going in would be vital. After the operation, whatever hordelings belonging to the same entity do survive shouldn't have enough cognitive ability to continue functioning as a superorganism. Or at least this is my hypothesis regarding such an undertaking until more information comes along. I think I've seen similar speculation elsewhere, people more or less agree that they can be killed but argue about how many constituent organisms that make up a Sleepless need to be killed and whether they can really considered 'dead' with <how many> hordelings remaining (& of course, the possibility of revival)

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Hive beings who are constantly losing individual members, but maintaining a persistent personality spread across all of them, immortal in that as long as too much of the hive isn't wiped out, the personality can persist. (The Sleepless.)
Source

Just make sure you kill enough of the same hive/swarm, fire's probably a good idea.

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"Kill" will depend on what their true nature is. Im of the opinion that they are a special breed of possessing Spren (probably Cultivation's Kandra equivalent) that use a Hive as their Physical Form rather than a single Singer or something (along the lines of what Nergaoul did to the army, when their flames changed to Red).  If Im correct, killing their physcial form will  banish them to Shadesmar but not true End them.  For that you'd need something that would affect Spren directly, so a Shard-blade or maybe Invested Surges that do spiritual Damage.  Also Nightblood, as always.

 

 

Waiiiiit.  What happens if Nightblood hits just one?  Will a single hiveling pop, or will it Connect the shared Spiritweb and kill the whole thing regardless of physical location?

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Just some WoB that I think are pertinent to the discussion and can add to it:

 

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

If a Dysian Aimian had the Elsecaller honorblade, could just a single hordeling transition to the Cognitive Realm? 'Cause I think I've heard that a person couldn't just transition a single part of their body.

Brandon Sanderson

They could transition a single hordeling, but as it works right now, they would probably lose contact with the host and would become broken-off and no longer part of the hive. It's not truly a hive. But it would be like of your finger got cut off and sent to-- something like that. It would start acting independently.

Hoiditthroughthegrapevine

So would you have to have the preponderance of the Dysian Aimian transition to the Cognitive Realm? And the ones that stayed in the Physical Realm would be cut off?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. It would be bad for half-and-half to go. Let's say that, one thing that they would love to be able to do is to have a little more versatility there. Let's just say that.

Skyward Seattle signing (Nov. 10, 2018)

 

 

 

Questioner

Regarding Dysian Aimians. The cremlings that make them up are spread about in a large area--

Brandon Sanderson

They can lose touch if the distance is too far. They can lose contact with the mind of the whole thing.

Questioner

Would their Cognitive aspect be affected by that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes it would be. I'll just leave it there, but yes.

Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)

 

 

 

Pagerunner

In [Oathbringer], when they first enter Shadesmar, they see a bunch of spren that are a few inches tall, green or orange. Are those Cognitive manifestations of one or more Dysian Aimians that were in Kholinar?

Brandon Sanderson

No, but good question.

Skyward Pre-Release AMA (Oct. 12, 2018)

 

 

 

Questioner

I am wondering if Dysian Aimians are more resistant to Soulcasting?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, I would say, yes. I would say, in general for various reasons, but yes.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)
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And just to add to those, This is the WOB that makes me think that the Dysian Aimians are a spren species, ebing the known sapient species that (by definition) cannot become Vessels.  He hems and haws about it, and I think what he was dancing around is that while normal Non-humans can be Vessels, there are other WOB's that it would a whole other thing if a Spren tried to merge with or absorb a shard, since they are already Pure Investiture and not a full 3-Realm being.  

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

I was wondering if Sleepless-- the Dysian Aimians-- if they could hold a Shard?

Brandon Sanderson

Could the Sleepless hold a Shard? Could they be a Vessel? Is what you're asking?

*hems and haws* There is nothing innate about the Shards that prevents any one with a-- I have to phrase this very carefully...

Non-humans can be Vessels. Non-humans have been vessels. Certain sapient creatures in the cosmere, could not be. But that's an asterisk, not the rule.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

 

 
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You could just drive the consciousness insane and you've done just as well.

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You just have to destroy most of the Hive. After losing a certain amount of cremlings they wont have enough "mind?" left to heal.

 

That Aimian that was burnt in the vision, someone probably used Division on it.

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2 hours ago, Eternal Khol said:

You just have to destroy most of the Hive. After losing a certain amount of cremlings they wont have enough "mind?" left to heal.

Arguably though, that could be compared to a Kandra that lost their Blessings: not actually Dead, just basically brain-dead.

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7 hours ago, Quantus said:

And just to add to those, This is the WOB that makes me think that the Dysian Aimians are a spren species, ebing the known sapient species that (by definition) cannot become Vessels.  He hems and haws about it, and I think what he was dancing around is that while normal Non-humans can be Vessels, there are other WOB's that it would a whole other thing if a Spren tried to merge with or absorb a shard, since they are already Pure Investiture and not a full 3-Realm being.  

 

 

 

i don't think they're a Spren. when one cremling get separated from the rest, itll go back to being a regular cremling: albeit a weird on because it was part of a larger being.

i don't think they can ascend because they're not truly their own individual. sure they have their own mind, but if one cremling is separated and lost connection to the whole, it would just be a "regular" cremling again.

this, to me, says that the Cremlings, even while being "controlled" by the Aimian, theyre still theyre own individual; but now following "orders" and thats why they cant ascend

 

also Brandon has been kind of Iffy on using the term "hive mind"

he describes it as "if your finger got cut off and started acting on its own."

this make me think that all the Cremlings of the "hive" view themselves as one being. when one gets too far away, its stop seeing itself as part of a larger whole and starts seeing itself as an individual again.

Edited by Eternal Khol
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@Agent34 I was looking for a word of Brandon that said something like this (or hoping it existed). I was getting so hung up on this are they really dead or just brain dead or just need to spend enough time gathering/creating new hordelings. But this makes sense to me, that if enough are dead they lose their personality and for all intents and purposes are dead.  
 

Lots of good things to think about here! Thanks everyone! 

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On 1/31/2020 at 6:06 PM, Eternal Khol said:

i don't think they're a Spren. when one cremling get separated from the rest, itll go back to being a regular cremling: albeit a weird on because it was part of a larger being.

i don't think they can ascend because they're not truly their own individual. sure they have their own mind, but if one cremling is separated and lost connection to the whole, it would just be a "regular" cremling again.

this, to me, says that the Cremlings, even while being "controlled" by the Aimian, theyre still theyre own individual; but now following "orders" and thats why they cant ascend

 

also Brandon has been kind of Iffy on using the term "hive mind"

he describes it as "if your finger got cut off and started acting on its own."

this make me think that all the Cremlings of the "hive" view themselves as one being. when one gets too far away, its stop seeing itself as part of a larger whole and starts seeing itself as an individual again.

I'm not saying the cremlings themselves are some sort of manifest spren, rather that there might be a spren possessing a group of Cultivated and specialized but still basically animal crabs, which they return to being if they get too far away from the collective

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1 hour ago, Quantus said:

I'm not saying the cremlings themselves are some sort of manifest spren, rather that there might be a spren possessing a group of Cultivated and specialized but still basically animal crabs, which they return to being if they get too far away from the collective

Ooo I like that. 

We know it takes a long time for spren to reproduce, and we know per WoB that the population of Dysians is only in the Dozens.

And some of the High spren populations are in the sam range(probably hundreds though)

 

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5 hours ago, Quantus said:

I'm not saying the cremlings themselves are some sort of manifest spren, rather that there might be a spren possessing a group of Cultivated and specialized but still basically animal crabs, which they return to being if they get too far away from the collective

Good theory I am pretty sure we have conformation that it is false though.

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5 hours ago, Karger said:

Good theory I am pretty sure we have conformation that it is false though.

Proving it false is almost as useful as Proving it true.  What confirmation?

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3 hours ago, Quantus said:

Proving it false is almost as useful as Proving it true.  What confirmation?

Quote
Skyward San Diego signing (Nov. 7, 2018)
#26 Share Copy
 
Play/Pause
 

Questioner

Regarding Dysian Aimians. The cremlings that make them up are spread about in a large area--

Brandon Sanderson

They can lose touch if the distance is too far. They can lose contact with the mind of the whole thing.

Questioner

Would their Cognitive aspect be affected by that?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes it would be. I'll just leave it there, but yes.

Never mind!

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Can an Dysian Aimian gain Investiture (Breath, ingest lerasium, etc.)?

Would hemalurgy work on an Dysian Aimian? I mean, it seems to work on a kandra (not just in terms of a kandra being a hemalurgic construct to begin with, but in terms of granting Bleeder metalborn powers), so not having a fixed physical form doesn't seem like a barrier. Except what would count as "blood" for one of them?

If Arclo could gain Allomancy, could he spread out his "cremlings" over a wide area and form an enormous field of Soothing or Rioting? Or with A-steel, form a mat of tiny Steelpushers that could ripple and carry someone bearing enough metal like a conveyor belt?

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3 hours ago, robardin said:

Can an Dysian Aimian gain Investiture (Breath, ingest lerasium, etc.)?

Would hemalurgy work on an Dysian Aimian? I mean, it seems to work on a kandra (not just in terms of a kandra being a hemalurgic construct to begin with, but in terms of granting Bleeder metalborn powers), so not having a fixed physical form doesn't seem like a barrier. Except what would count as "blood" for one of them?

If Arclo could gain Allomancy, could he spread out his "cremlings" over a wide area and form an enormous field of Soothing or Rioting? Or with A-steel, form a mat of tiny Steelpushers that could ripple and carry someone bearing enough metal like a conveyor belt?

I'd imagine that a Sleepless could not become an Allomancer immediately from one bead of Lerasium. A Sleepless could make one or a couple Hordelings eat Lerasium, and then breed them to make most or all Hordelings Allomancers, but one Hordeling gaining Allomancy would not automatically grant it to any other. Maybe if a Sleepless lived on Nalthis, then their Hordelings would be born with Breath, but then the Sleepless would have to consolidate that Breath into one Hordeling to Awaken with it. Maybe it could breed Hordelings with the express purpose of making them Drabs, then killing them. That is if Hordelings can use Allomancy at all, or if Endowment would allow Hordelings to be born with Breath. Hemalurgist Sleepless could happen with tiny, needle-sized spikes, however each spike would grant the power or ability to a single Hordeling.

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On 1/31/2020 at 7:36 AM, Quantus said:

And just to add to those, This is the WOB that makes me think that the Dysian Aimians are a spren species, ebing the known sapient species that (by definition) cannot become Vessels.  He hems and haws about it, and I think what he was dancing around is that while normal Non-humans can be Vessels, there are other WOB's that it would a whole other thing if a Spren tried to merge with or absorb a shard, since they are already Pure Investiture and not a full 3-Realm being.  

 

 

 

I disagree with how you read this.

The issue, I would say, is that they are a hive mind. It might mean: Only one bug could take up the shard, but then that bug wouldn't have enough to be considered sapient on its own.

That makes a lot more sense to me.

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Sharp, stompy boots.

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