Messing With Metalminds (Revisited)

[Hoidonalsium]

I've been rereading Mistborn Era 1, and found myself digging for a discussion on the manipulation of Copperminds.

The only thread I've found was this from 2011.

While there are some interesting insights into realmatic presence, it all felt a touch... overcomplicated?

Like the original question - I wondered how metal could be blinding to Ruin, yet he seemed perfectly able to manipulate the content of copperminds. Though, rather than the intricacies of where (realmatically) that information is, I was hoping to find a quick WoB or thread that could confirm or deny my belief that Kwaan's assumption was wrong.

He is the first person to note that the coppermind contents were changing, and everyone (that I can find) has taken that as gospel. But it seems, to me at least, that the flaw in the copperminds was written into the way details are withdrawn and redeposited. Why else would Brandon have raised - and repeated several times - the point about Sazed instantly forgetting the knowledge he held once it had been replaced, with only a written record to remind him of the information he sought?

Am I missing something (logically, or a WoB/thread), or is the answer not simply that Ruin was altering the written records that were supposedly pulled verbatim from the copperminds, rather than the stores themselves?

[NameIess]

Ruin can effect the power as it is going in between the metalmind and the Feruchemist:

Quote

Questioner

In the Well of Ascension, Kwaan says that Ruin changed the words in the Feruchemists' metalminds. Ruin can't *inaudible* metal plates. I was wondering what the difference was?

Brandon Sanderson

Because they're in the person's head before they're going in the plates. And he can affect the power as it's transcribed between. Because the power is partially him, the Power of Creation of that world. So there is a bit of him inside of every person, and as the power is going from person into plate... It's kind of like how people can hack your phone through your wifi. Does that make sense? So, that's what's going on there.

 

[Raphaborn]

4 hours ago, Llstml said:

Ruin can effect the power as it is going in between the metalmind and the Feruchemist:

 

Wait, so now that Ruin doesn't exist, are the metalminds of the past reliable? Coppermind archeology really needs to be a thing in Era 3.

[Quantus]

9 hours ago, Raphaborn said:

Wait, so now that Ruin doesn't exist, are the metalminds of the past reliable? Coppermind archeology really needs to be a thing in Era 3.

Ruin (the shard) still exists, it just happens to be Roommates with the Preservation.  Metalminds of the past are as reliable as they ever were, in that they are only as reliable as the memory of the person storing it, and there is degradation each time they cycle it in and out.  But there is still no way for somebody else to access normal (Sealed and Keyed) metalminds once that person is gone.  But to your point, the current own is less likely to use this sort of thing, but since he's clearly not beyond deceptions, he still might.  

[Channelknight Fadran]

15 minutes ago, Quantus said:

And there is degradation each time they cycle it in and out.

Feruchemy is an end-neutral form of investiture. Unless the feruchemist doesn't refill the coppermind after using it, then the amount of investiture between them and the coppermind will remain the same. This doesn't, of course, take into account a feruchemist's imperfect memory.

[Quantus]

1 minute ago, Channelknight Fadran said:

Feruchemy is an end-neutral form of investiture. Unless the feruchemist doesn't refill the coppermind after using it, then the amount of investiture between them and the coppermind will remain the same. This doesn't, of course, take into account a feruchemist's imperfect memory.

There is degradation of the stored memory's integrity.  This is not a function of Investiture Loss as with Hemalurgy, it's a fundamental fault in the way grey matter stores memory. 

 

Quote

 

Slowswift

When you take a memory out of a coppermind it starts <degrade away>.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Slowswift

Would that happen with someone who has an eidetic memory?

Brandon Sanderson

Well... no. With the exception of, a photographic memory is disputed by science. In the cosmere they exist, magically enhanced. But there is science in our world that says these aren't real things. So, I'm not sure. You'd have to go to the science and see if they're actually real.

Slowswift

But if it is real, then it would...?

Brandon Sanderson

Then it would not degrade. It's the brain's own failings that are causing this.

Arcanum Unbounded release party (Nov. 22, 2016)

 

 

[Kingsdaughter613]

44 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Ruin (the shard) still exists, it just happens to be Roommates with the Preservation.  Metalminds of the past are as reliable as they ever were, in that they are only as reliable as the memory of the person storing it, and there is degradation each time they cycle it in and out.  But there is still no way for somebody else to access normal (Sealed and Keyed) metalminds once that person is gone.  But to your point, the current own is less likely to use this sort of thing, but since he's clearly not beyond deceptions, he still might.  

It was indicated that you could do so while storing identity. You’d need the correct medallion though, unless you were hemalurgically enhanced or you were a Full Feruchemist.

[Quantus]

15 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

It was indicated that you could do so while storing identity. You’d need the correct medallion though, unless you were hemalurgically enhanced or you were a Full Feruchemist.

Right, you can intentionally CREATE a metalmind that can be read by somebody else, but there is no way to Hack the contents of a dead feruchemist's pre-exist metalminds, so @Raphaborn's idea of Mentalmind Archaeology isnt going to get very far.  Era 3 or 4 could dig back and potentially find something Unkeyed from Era2, but there will not be any from Era1 since those metals and traits were not known (to anyone besides the Lord Ruler, anyway, he alone might have been able to leave sometime behind).

[Kingsdaughter613]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

Right, you can intentionally CREATE a metalmind that can be read by somebody else, but there is no way to Hack the contents of a dead feruchemist's pre-exist metalminds, so @Raphaborn's idea of Mentalmind Archaeology isnt going to get very far.  Era 3 or 4 could dig back and potentially find something Unkeyed from Era2, but there will not be any from Era1 since those metals and traits were not known (to anyone besides the Lord Ruler, anyway, he alone might have been able to leave sometime behind).

You misunderstood. It was indicated that you CAN hack any metalmind, IF you have that power AND are storing your identity. Essentially, by storing your identity, the identity filter can’t recognize your presence (as opposed to unkeyed metalminds, where no filter exists.)

BTW, regarding your WOB:

Eidetic memory actually does exist (I have it to an extent; it was stronger when I was a kid. Most children lose the ability as they get older.) True Photographic memory does not exist. With Eidetic memory, the ‘pictures’ don’t last more than a few minutes. The two are often conflated, and the two terms used interchangeably, so it’s confusing. 

There is also something called audiographic memory, which is the ability to recall audio perfectly.

[Raphaborn]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Ruin (the shard) still exists, it just happens to be Roommates with the Preservation.  Metalminds of the past are as reliable as they ever were, in that they are only as reliable as the memory of the person storing it, and there is degradation each time they cycle it in and out.  But there is still no way for somebody else to access normal (Sealed and Keyed) metalminds once that person is gone.  But to your point, the current own is less likely to use this sort of thing, but since he's clearly not beyond deceptions, he still might.  

The Kandras theory is that someone who stores their Identity completely can access someone else's metalminds. My confusion here was that as Ruin no longer exists I thought that the metalmind would be corrected for correct information, but rereading Sanderson's answer I start to think that it is not. The metalminds of the Keepers remain corrupted, that if they still exist.

[Weltall]

34 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You misunderstood. It was indicated that you CAN hack any metalmind, IF you have that power AND are storing your identity. Essentially, by storing your identity, the identity filter can’t recognize your presence (as opposed to unkeyed metalminds, where no filter exists.)

Except no, the feruchemist having blank Identity doesn't mean they can use any metalmind, it means they can make a metalmind that anyone else with that feruchemical power can use. Brandon has explicitly stated that blank Identity in and of itself doesn't make you able to use any metalmind.

Quote

There are ways to access that if you are completely blank also, if you were a blank slate, but that is still...kind of hard. It's even harder if you are blank, and the metalmind is not blank, but that's not what they're doing in Mistborn right now. You are tapping investiture, gaining the ability of feruchemy and then you are drawing out a blank metalmind,

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)

The key here is that a normal metalmind doesn't look for 'Identity X or nothing', it looks for 'Identity X' and if you're not that, it's not letting you play. Having a blank Identity would be no different from having the wrong Identity.

[Raphaborn]

15 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Except no, the feruchemist having blank Identity doesn't mean they can use any metalmind, it means they can make a metalmind that anyone else with that feruchemical power can use. Brandon has explicitly stated that blank Identity in and of itself doesn't make you able to use any metalmind.

The key here is that a normal metalmind doesn't look for 'Identity X or nothing', it looks for 'Identity X' and if you're not that, it's not letting you play. Having a blank Identity would be no different from having the wrong Identity.

Not according to the Kandra theory. Perhaps they are wrong, but according to VenDell "Some have been experimenting and early results are promising". And the Kandras were right about the possibility of creating unkeyed and unsealed metalminds, as well as about the Bands. And we know that Blanked Identity is not enough for you to use any metal mind. What we are saying is that you can use someone's metalmind if you are also a Ferring of the right type, or a Full Feruchemist. Of course, this usually requires that you have a medallion that gives you that power as well, since the second possibility is much more complicated.

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

You misunderstood. It was indicated that you CAN hack any metalmind, IF you have that power AND are storing your identity. Essentially, by storing your identity, the identity filter can’t recognize your presence (as opposed to unkeyed metalminds, where no filter exists.)

BTW, regarding your WOB:

Eidetic memory actually does exist (I have it to an extent; it was stronger when I was a kid. Most children lose the ability as they get older.) True Photographic memory does not exist. With Eidetic memory, the ‘pictures’ don’t last more than a few minutes. The two are often conflated, and the two terms used interchangeably, so it’s confusing. 

There is also something called audiographic memory, which is the ability to recall audio perfectly.

I used to have very good audiographic memory when I was in school, though like you said with Eidteic it has faded over time. I would be able to play back teachers lessons in my head during tests, rarely took notes, just made sure to pay attention in class, people hated me for that. It's very interesting for audiobooks, if I binge a bunch of books narrated by the same person I can actually hear my own thoughts in the narrators voice for a bit due to the large sample size. Only really been able to do that with Michael Kramer and James Marsters, most other series I've read weren't large enough or didn't keep the same narrator over time.

As for the topic at hand, Sazed put the contents of his metalminds in The Words of Founding. So if it is possible to access old metal minds, you'd need to go back pretty far in Era 1 or pre Era 1 to find anything new. The Keepers had been quite thorough to make sure they all had each-others knowledge stored. 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Harrycrapper
Spelling

[Quantus]

55 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

Not according to the Kandra theory. Perhaps they are wrong, but according to VenDell "Some have been experimenting and early results are promising". And the Kandras were right about the possibility of creating unkeyed and unsealed metalminds, as well as about the Bands. And we know that Blanked Identity is not enough for you to use any metal mind. What we are saying is that you can use someone's metalmind if you are also a Ferring of the right type, or a Full Feruchemist. Of course, this usually requires that you have a medallion that gives you that power as well, since the second possibility is much more complicated.

Wait, so what you are proposing is that any Trueself can access ANY metalmind once they blank their own identity?  Or that they'd need a full UnSealed medallion, but that once they had access to Feruchemy that didnt have their Identity in the mix, you would be able to access ANY metalmind fo the right type? 

 

Also, you keep citing "The Kadra Theory" where did you get this from?  Id like to review the original statements, because this seems to directly contradict what we've been told about metalminds.  Becuase it still sounds like you've mixed up and reversed where the Indentiy blank is used in medallion creation.  

[Raphaborn]

17 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Wait, so what you are proposing is that any Trueself can access ANY metalmind once they blank their own identity?  Or that they'd need a full UnSealed medallion, but that once they had access to Feruchemy that didnt have their Identity in the mix, you would be able to access ANY metalmind fo the right type? 

 

Also, you keep citing "The Kadra Theory" where did you get this from?  Id like to review the original statements, because this seems to directly contradict what we've been told about metalminds.  Becuase it still sounds like you've mixed up and reversed where the Indentiy blank is used in medallion creation.  

Let me give you an example. If you are a Full Feruchemist, you could use a metalmind of Blanked Identity to use anyone's metalmind of any power (you already have all the possible feruchemical powers). If you are a Trueself and use a Blanked Identity metalmind, but also have another ferochemical power, let's say Gold (either with medallions or spike), you could use any Gold metalmind. In case you are any Ferring, let's say Gold again, and get a way to use Aluminum (either with a medallion or spike again) you could just as easily use any Gold metalmind.

[...]

“Each man or woman has a Spiritual aspect, a piece of themselves that exists in another Realm entirely. You might call it your soul. Your Investiture is keyed to your soul—indeed, it might be a part of your soul, much as your blood is a part of your body.”

“So if a person could store their Identity,” Marasi said, “as Waxillium does with his weight…”

“They’d be without it for a time,” VenDell said. “A blank slate, so to speak.”

“So they could use anyone’s metalmind?” Marasi asked.

“Possibly,”

[...]
“Some have been experimenting with your idea,” VenDell said, “and early results are promising. However, having a Feruchemist who can use anyone’s metalminds is intriguing, but not particularly life-changing. Our society is strewn with individuals who have extraordinary abilities—this would simply be one more variety. 

[...]

The Kandras who decided to focus more on unkeyed metalminds. Because it can create metalminds that anyone can use, not just those who are Trueself and another type of Ferring (as far as they knew, only hemalurgists) or a lucky man who was born Full Feruchemist.

Edited January 31, 2020 by Raphaborn

[Quantus]

3 minutes ago, Raphaborn said:

Let me give you an example. If you are a Full Feruchemist, you could use a metalmind of Blanked Identity to use anyone's metalmind of any power (you already have all the possible feruchemical powers).

No, you cant.  Thats what we are saying, that's not at all how Identity has been shown to work. 

The only way for a Metalmind to be accessed by somebody that isnt the Creator Requires that the original creator Blanked their Own Identiy when they filled it.  That is what an UnKeyed Metalmind is.  There is nothing anyone, even a Full Feruchemist, can to to access an existing Keyed metalmind, unless they a)spike the Identity out of the original Owner, or b) brute force through it, requiring massive, nigh shardic levels pf power (Im 90% 70% sure this second option has been confirmed in WOB). 

WOB Confirmation:

 

Quote

 

Questioner

If you were to Feruchemically drain your Identity, would you just be able to be soulstamped by any--  Would any soulstamp work on you?

Brandon Sanderson

Not the way I have it now. Because-- You're getting into stuff that I really would like to have my notes next to me for. So don't take this as too gospel. But the way I have this worked out right now, is if you drain your Identity, you still can't use Feruchemical metalminds that themselves have not been drained of Identity, right?

So, any old stamp still is going to be keyed to someone's past and Identity. So my instincts say no that would not work, but I have not worked out that specific interaction in the notes.

Orem signing (March 10, 2018)

 

 

[Karger]

14 hours ago, Raphaborn said:

Wait, so now that Ruin doesn't exist, are the metalminds of the past reliable? Coppermind archeology really needs to be a thing in Era 3.

We have no idea if Harmony changed them back.  Also good luck finding the metalminds.  Also you would need to have a full feruchmist or a bunch of medallions for it to even potentially work.

[Kingsdaughter613]

On 1/31/2020 at 0:28 PM, Harrycrapper said:

I used to have very good audiographic memory when I was in school, though like you said with Eidteic it has faded over time. I would be able to play back teachers lessons in my head during tests, rarely took notes, just made sure to pay attention in class, people hated me for that. It's very interesting for audiobooks, if I binge a bunch of books narrated by the same person I can actually hear my own thoughts in the narrators voice for a bit due to the large sample size. Only really been able to do that with Michael Kramer and James Marsters, most other series I've read weren't large enough or didn't keep the same narrator over time.

Eidetic and audiographic together let me replay entire movies! Which was fun on long, boring card trips.

For me, my audiography seems to come out more with music. If I hear someone hum a few bars of a song the entire thing will replay, with the full orchestra. If it was a music video or show, that will play in the corner of my eye too. It’s highly annoying actually...

My favorite experience with audiography was with a teacher. She thought I hadn’t been paying attention to her lesson... so I repeated it back verbatim. (With slight variation, because even audiographic memory isn’t perfect.) Funny thing was that I didn’t mean to; I just remembered it that way. She never asked if I was paying attention again...

[Karger]

I was really annoyed when mine faded.  I never mastered good note taking.

[Hoidonalsium]

It seems like Brandon's contradicting himself slightly with a couple of WoB's and the in-book comments of VenDell.

The conversation with VenDell, that Raphaborn quoted, suggests the possibility (though doesn't outright say they managed it - perhaps the research hit a wall). 

The 2016 WoB from the Seattle signing makes it pretty clear that it's harder to access a non-blank metalmind when you are blank, than it is to access a metalmind when both it and you are blank. This suggests that, while extremely difficult, accessing a keyed metalmind is not impossible. Though - in that same WoB, Brandon does say that nobody in Mistborn is currently doing 'blank person tapping keyed metalmind', and the question asker should be more focused on identity-blank metalminds. He also notes that there are other things possible, but he's being intentionally sketchy about details on those.

Given the 2018 comment that you can't access a keyed metalmind while blank, we can figure that either: The previous "hedging" in earlier answers was because this is genuinely not possible and he was not yet sure he wanted to canonise the other interactions that he had not yet focused on. Or that Brandon has only revealed so much, up to now, and the blank accessing of keyed metalminds is a reveal he's setting up for later.

Essentially, I think we have to look to this WoB, and accept that we don't know enough at this stage to have a definitive answer. 

 

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

For the recording and for the sake of you, Peter and I have a big document that talks about all these mechanics [of blank identity and metalminds]. It's entirely possible that when I'm actually sitting down and building future Mistborn, like 1980s technology, that I'm like "Ahh some of this needs tweaking". So what's not expressly in the books, that I'm telling you guys, has not...I mean it's like 90% canon but it's possible that I'm like "Ahh this is just not going to work" because when we get to the actual plotting of that and future Mistborn, science fiction Mistborn, I'm going to have to look at that and decide, how is the power ratio, right, am I breaking the economy by doing these things. So things that I just have instincts on right now, I haven't worked out the economics of. 

Questioner

So that'll come later.

Brandon Sanderson

That'll come later in the series, so I'm just giving myself some wiggle room on some of these things, but that's how I have it in my head right now.

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)