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Military operations of mixed forces prior to the Recreance


Oltux72

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Hi,

people were asking about the role of the orders in warfare. But that neglects the role of ordinary forces mixed with Surgebinders in conflict. I will try to shed some lights on this. My premises:

  1. Horses are too rare for common usage. Mundane transport is by ship, foot, oath gate or chull cart.
  2. Spanreeds were not yet discovered
  3. Stormwardens did not yet exist.
  4. Elsecallers and Willshapers can teleport.
  5. You do not have the number of users of Transportation or Gravitation to transport the bulk of troops or supplies

Yet you still have no guns, no good artillery, yet you have Highstorms.

The tech level was essentially somewhere between classical antiquity and medieval times. Even that masks some difference to those periods on Earth. First, Roshar has little to no soil. That means earth works require Radiant support. You cannot dig a trench. You cannot apply the Roman tactic of building a damm to overcome a fortress's wall.


Second, there are Highstorms to deal with. This has stark consequences.

  • siege engines become harder to operate. Your stuff has to withstand a hurricane.
  • you need supply trains or Surgebinders to quarter your troops in the field. Taking a Highstorm without shelter is detrimental to health, morale and equipment. It is not an option you can use for ordinary operations. That means most of your troops will be as slow as a chull pulling a cart.
  • You cannot maneuver freely. If your forces are too far away from the next shelter when you get reports of coming Highstorm, you are in a serious emergency.

Third, you got magic added to the picture, but not uniformly.

  • communication is optimal at the theatre level. You cannot interdict or intercept a teleporter. Messages from an HQ to an HQ will get through, will be fast and will be secure.
  • You have early 20th century levels of air recon. You will not surprise an army that has Windrunners or Skybreakers on the lookout. The can patrol out to multiple days of marching time.
  • You can always land a small elite unit at any place. To be outmarched by your enemy taking a choke point unopposed is out of the question.

All in all the element of uncertainty and surprise is much reduced. Forcing such an army to give battle is hard to impossible. Delaying action by Radiants makes pursuits hard, especially if you destroy the storm shelters behind you. These armies will fight only if they see a valuable objective.
Furthermore, small units have a problem. Without a Radiant you cannot call for help, nor do you have air defense. Splitting up your forces is problematic.

Where does that leave us?

  • Fewer to no heroic forced marches. You need to be in reach of a shelter and the Radiants will always be faster.
  • The amies will march as a block. Giving up communications and air cover is too dangerous
  • The main battles will be at fortifications. Your Radiants are good at building and destroying them. Use them.

How do you operate? In two words, slowly and ugly.

  • You hold fortifications in defense
  • In the attack you try to take fortifications by storm
  • And you spend much of your time slaughtering peasants. The enemy cannot be brought to battle in the field and assaulting a fortress is so expensive.

Is there anything unexpected? Yes:

  • The Marines rule. Transport on water is much better than a chull. Whoever rules the ocean will rule the lands near them.

So is Roshar a planet of castles? No. A castle historically had a small garrison. This will not do. Radiants are practically air-mobile tanks. A small, mundane garrison won't do. On Roshar the fortified city with a large population always manning the walls well and Radiants at ready is the queen of war. I am vaguely reminded of the Hellenistic Period.

 

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7 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Definitely no castles, so hilariously ineffective! You've got climbers, fliers, shapeshifters, teleporters, transmuters, earthbenders/elementalists, ...Dustbringers

Nah, we know they very much did still use fortifications, as even modern militaries do.  Additional capabilities like flight, etc, dont negate  the need or usefulness of fortifications, they just alter the design.  It's another never-ending arms race, just like the Weapon Vs Armor dichotomy.  

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1 minute ago, Quantus said:

Nah, we know they very much did still use fortifications, as even modern militaries do.  Additional capabilities like flight, etc, dont negate  the need or usefulness of fortifications, they just alter the design.  It's another never-ending arms race, just like the Weapon Vs Armor dichotomy.  

Not quite the scenario I was going for. Agreed on the arms race part. The fortifications we've seen so far belonged to/were allied with the Knights Radiant. Besides, Odium's forces had access to the Surges too. And why would Knights Radiant be fighting Rosharan human forces? (aside from those select isolated incidents such as Alakavish)

Just noting how horrendous fighting Surgebinders could be, especially on their home turf, with the destructive Highstorms necessitating fortress-shelters. A fortress without support by Surgebinders is very close to being sitting ducks

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10 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Definitely no castles, so hilariously ineffective! You've got climbers, fliers, shapeshifters, teleporters, transmuters, earthbenders/elementalists, ...Dustbringers

They also have magical defenders against such forces. A troop of Stonewards can build a wall 20 meters thick and 20 meters high, shoud the need arise. The Fused can do it, too. Surgebinders can fly. But they are not bombers. There are no explosives on Roshar. They can drop rocks and burning stuff only. You can defend against that with the available means.

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8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Not quite the scenario I was going for. Agreed on the arms race part. The fortifications we've seen so far belonged to/were allied with the Knights Radiant. Besides, Odium's forces had access to the Surges too. And why would Knights Radiant be fighting Rosharan human forces? (aside from those select isolated incidents such as Alakavish)

You lost me, I dont see where you are going with that.  I thought we were talking about Surgebinding's place and limitations in Warfar, not specifically one side's use or the other?  And even then Im dont really see the scenario you were going for and/or the point you were trying to make.  Sorry. 

8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Just noting how horrendous fighting Surgebinders could be, especially on their home turf, with the destructive Highstorms necessitating fortress-shelters. A fortress without support by Surgebinders is very close to being sitting ducks

Well, We are all agreed that only one side having Surgebinding puts them at a stark disadvantage, but since both sides had relatively equal Surgebinding, that will affect them equally.  With as many as four Orders able to make physical shelters on very short notice, along with two able to make illusory cover, and I think fortifications would still have a place.

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4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

You lost me, I dont see where you are going with that.  I thought we were talking about Surgebinding's place and limitations in Warfar, not specifically one side's use or the other?  And even then Im dont really see the scenario you were going for and/or the point you were trying to make.  Sorry. 

I was actually trying to talk about how to combine Surgebinders and mundane forces. Surgebinders are rare. A few thousand for a whole continent. You cannot delegate all fighting to them. Mundane forces against Surgebinders is suicide, so they will need to learn how to fight together.

Also almost all Surgebinders were organized in two distinct camps. Unless you wish to assume a civil war, you would see the Radiants and mainly human forces against the Fused, Regals, Thunderclasts and mainly Singer forces.

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Well, We are all agreed that only one side having Surgebinding puts them at a stark disadvantage, but since both sides had relatively equal Surgebinding, that will affect them equally. 

Well, no, as the Fused lack Blade and Plate.

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

With as many as four Orders able to make physical shelters on very short notice, along with two able to make illusory cover, and I think fortifications would still have a place.

Yes. In fact they will dominate warfare.

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4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

I was actually trying to talk about how to combine Surgebinders and mundane forces. Surgebinders are rare. A few thousand for a whole continent. You cannot delegate all fighting to them. Mundane forces against Surgebinders is suicide, so they will need to learn how to fight together.

Gotcha.  To be clear are you counting only full Radiants as Surgebinders, or are you including Squires and Fabrial Users as well?  That will make a massive difference to the evaluation, especially with Fabrial Users.  Side note: where did we learn that Spanreeds are a newer invention than the other Fabrials? Im not doubting you, I see several references to it, but Id like to see the original source.  

Even without those, the visions certainly made it seem like non-surgebinders could hold their own against many of the various Voidspawn: Dalinar did well against the Midnight Essence with a firepoker, and they recruited him because of it. 

4 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Also almost all Surgebinders were organized in two distinct camps. Unless you wish to assume a civil war, you would see the Radiants and mainly human forces against the Fused, Regals, Thunderclasts and mainly Singer forces.

I agree with this statement but Im still missing it's relevance to @Honorless's assertion that fortifications would be "hilariously ineffective"?

Quote

Well, no, as the Fused lack Blade and Plate.

As far as we know there's nothing close to the shear offensive supremacy of the Shardbalde's spiritual attack, but short of that the shapeshifting Fused have as much weapon versatility as a Living Shardblade, their PowerForms' Chitins are said to be as durable as Plate, and if Im not mistaken it also was shown to be Invested enough to block Shardblades at Half-shard levels.  

 

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8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Gotcha.  To be clear are you counting only full Radiants as Surgebinders, or are you including Squires and Fabrial Users as well?

If they were used in the army as Surgebinders, they count. We do not know how versatile and common Fabrials were. So were they, apart from Soulcasters, used in combat? I do not know.

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

  That will make a massive difference to the evaluation, especially with Fabrial Users.  Side note: where did we learn that Spanreeds are a newer invention than the other Fabrials? Im not doubting you, I see several references to it, but Id like to see the original source.

I don't know that either.

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Even without those, the visions certainly made it seem like non-surgebinders could hold their own against many of the various Voidspawn: Dalinar did well against the Midnight Essence with a firepoker, and they recruited him because of it.

A Thunderclast would have squashed him. Odium's side is more variable. And less known to us.

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

I agree with this statement but Im still missing it's relevance to @Honorless's assertion that fortifications would be "hilariously ineffective"?

He is correct with respect to fortifications to be held by only mundanes against Surgebinders.
However, it is not correct with respect to fortifications held by combined forces. That in turn means that fewer but large fortresses are superior to many small castles.

8 minutes ago, Quantus said:

As far as we know there's nothing close to the shear offensive supremacy of the Shardbalde's spiritual attack, but short of that the shapeshifting Fused have as much weapon versatility as a Living Shardblade, their PowerForms' Chitins are said to be as durable as Plate, and if Im not mistaken it also was shown to be Invested enough to block Shardblades at Half-shard levels. 

Forms of Power are fascinating, however them still being rare compared to mundane Singers, I doubt that they would fundamentally alter the situation.

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Uh, my point stands, the direct quotations are quite unnecessary, given both the phrasing used and the fact that I also put an exclamation mark to express how I wanted that statement to be taken: which is that I found imagining such a scenario very funny. The serious version is this: The powers seem designed to be a full counter to normal warfare. That's why Urithiru exists. Holding any other, less secure stronghold would be cost-intensive.

Edited by Honorless
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Assuming what you say is about the lack of stormwardens or spanreads is correct(and we have little to no information to the contrary) then I do not think a battle during the desolations would look like a conventional war like we see on earth.  As you pointed out.  Supplying a human army across Roshar is not usually a practical option.  Even the 10 oathgate cities may have needed to be supplied via Urithiru.  Singer forces do not have nearly as great a problem with highstorms and as such can likely move a larger group of people farther but even they would have trouble keeping that kind of force supplied for any length of time without surgebinders which they do not seem to have. 

During times that are not desolations human force have surgebinders and singers do not.  As such singers would probably live seminomadic lifestyles or else inhabit cities that existed behind some kind of natural or singer made fortification that made attacking them too costly to be worthwhile.  Any offensive by a massive group of singer forces could be countered by a group of radiant forces whose mobility would allow them to inflict incredible damage on the singers while they readied any nearby human settlements for the conflict.  This perpetuates a kind of ongoing stalemate.  Humans cannot catch or destroy singer civilization and singers can't attack human civilization on a large enough scale for either to destroy the other.  With Odium fanning the flames the conflict does not die down but practical considerations prevent it from going into any kind of total war because the defender always has a large advantage.  All of this changes when a Herald breaks.

When a Herald breaks, at least traditionally, all ten arrive on Roshar to warn humans of the coming conflict and to tell them to get their act together.  A little while latter the fused start to arrive on Roshar and gain bodies.  Suddenly the mutual stalemate is broken as both sides have an incentive to move to total war.  With the fused on their side the singers can damage human cities without retaliation.  They can also now put large armies in the field and not worry about surgebinder attacks since their own surgebinders can counter.  Meanwhile for the humans damaging the parshendi civilization as possible becomes essentially their only option for survival and as such attacking fortified cities becomes a necessary action.  They also have the added help of a large number of new surgebinders assuming Jasnah is correct(and she almost always is) that helps with going after armies or nomadic groups.

I think this is the origin of the Vorin myths.  Mankind defending itself against the desolations as evil monsters attacked from the east(where human population density was probably lowest) and attempting to drive mankind off Roshar.  The average human soldier at the time would not know of mankind's origins and would only know that monsters were attacking the land that had been theirs for as long as local memory allowed.  It also explains the Alethi knowledge of war as they would probably have the most frequent conflicts between humans and singers in between desolations. 

I find myself doubting either side used siege engines of any kind during most of these.  Remember the Heralds had to help these people into the bronze age.  Also the singers had thunderclasts and humans had surgebinders which make them kind of redundant.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Stormwardens did not yet exist.

Syl can predict Storms within a day or so.  She does so in OB.

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The Marines rule. Transport on water is much better than a chull. Whoever rules the ocean will rule the lands near them.

Every few days there is a highstorm.  Humans in modern Roshar find that sailing under those conditions are impossible.  I have a hard time believing that maritime tec was used much at all by anyone.  Theylens might use it sometimes but even that was probably limited to coastal movements.  Actual conflict on the seas I very much doubt.

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2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

If they were used in the army as Surgebinders, they count. We do not know how versatile and common Fabrials were. So were they, apart from Soulcasters, used in combat? I do not know.

Fair enough, but I think they should be considered, and Id argue that actual Combat is not the only relevant instance.  For example: Oathgates are a Fabrial alternative to Transportation, and specifically one that can be used for large-scale movement of non-Invested troops.  Soulcasters and Regrowth Farbials (both confirmed present in that era) are key tactical advantages that arguably more useful off the battlefield (or adjacent to it for Regrowth).  Soulcasters in particular were one of the single most critical resources off the battlefield because that was the primary source of manufactured things like Iron and Steel, where the mundane populace was otherwise reduced to pre-Bronze Age capabilities.  

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

A Thunderclast would have squashed him. Odium's side is more variable. And less known to us.

Oh certainly, Shardblades where specifically designed (and needed) to counter that threat.  No single individual could take one down without it, though a Group would have almost precisely the same chances as against a Chasmfield (which is small but non-Zero).  This will not be the last example of a thing (on either side) that simply cannot be countered by mundane means, though most I cant name are countered by something on the other side.  

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

He is correct with respect to fortifications to be held by only mundanes against Surgebinders.

Well, Azure's group managed to do precisely that for quite a while, and they had one pseudo-shardeblade and no Surgebinders.  Had the city Leadership not wasted the vast majority of their food stores, they would have been holding with no Surge support at all.

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

However, it is not correct with respect to fortifications held by combined forces. That in turn means that fewer but large fortresses are superior to many small castles.

Agreed, though for what it's worth on Roshar they do mention that the the Highstorm significantly impacts that sort of thing, on the basis that Armies dont/cant camp outdoors in Highstorms, so they have to make sure there is shelter within marching distance.  It was a specific design consideration of Alethkar, for example.  

2 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Forms of Power are fascinating, however them still being rare compared to mundane Singers, I doubt that they would fundamentally alter the situation.

I disagree, though I could be wrong.  The difference is that literally every single Singer has the capability of becoming one of them, none of them sit it out because they are all expected to have some form (may or may not be a form of Power, but in a fully Odium dominated society I think it's likely), and these forms arent limted by requiring a Sentient Spren, they can only require the lesser spren (of which I assume there are orders of magnitude more than the sentient breeds).

 

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Uh, my point stands, the direct quotations are quite unnecessary, given both the phrasing used and the fact that I also put an exclamation mark to express how I wanted that statement to be taken: which is that I found imagining such a scenario very funny.

...OK?  Is directly quoting your statement to reply to it somehow insulting? Because im getting that sense but it was not my intention? How would you prefer we do it?

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The serious version is this: The powers seem designed to be a full counter to normal warfare. That's why Urithiru exists. Holding any other, less secure stronghold would be cost-intensive.

Fair enough.  Holding ANY location against a superior force is going to be cost-intensive, but Id argue that the nature of that superiority doesn't change the fundamental fact, and still doesnt negate the value of Fortifications large and small.  

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The major implication that I see with regards to warfare on Roshar with mixed forces is that despite the tech level siege warfare never really gets a chance to develop.  There's no such thing as year long sieges on a planet with highstorms. You cannot starve them out or have them succumb to sickness. Sanitation isn't a problem as all waste gets Soulcast to smoke.  Fortification is really important as it gives the defenders much more advantage than earth armies, many of the disadvantages negated by both local climate and manipulation of surges. Therefore the most effective mixed armies are raiders. Small squad tactics pay huge dividends. 

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19 minutes ago, Quantus said:

...OK?  Is directly quoting your statement to reply to it somehow insulting? Because im getting that sense but it was not my intention? How would you prefer we do it?

No? You're taking both of comments way too seriously

Again, the point of that comment was

1) the Surges render mundane warfare tactics in this case entrenching and siege very difficult or downright ineffective without powers on your side

2) how important the Fortress of Urithiru was strategically

Edited by Honorless
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8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

No? You're taking both of comments way too seriously

My apologies, Ill try to spot and ignore them in the future.  

8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Again, the point of that comment was

1) the Surges render mundane warfare tactics in this case entrenching and siege very difficult or downright ineffective without powers on your side

I still disagree with this assertion, since Azure was able to do precisely that during the siege of Alethkar.  Random, variably trained folks on a Wall vs Fused (including flyers), and the only Investment on their side was a Sword that (supposed Intelligence aside) is functionally just a pointy Half-shard in that it can block any shard-blades the Fused might have (which I believe is very few indeed).  

8 minutes ago, Honorless said:

2) how important the Fortress of Urithiru was strategically

Supremely, Id say, even without all the various systems that it supposedly had.  Being above the Highstorm is in itself a huge tactical advantage on it's own.  If you consider it as part of a set with the other Oathgate cities, then by virtue of being the Teleportation Hub it becomes the lynch-pin of their whole alliance.  Im not as convinced as you are that they'd have to be one of those major cities to have any fighting chance with fortifications and mild support, but that's based on the assumption that smaller cities/targets would generally warrant proportionally smaller attack forces.  A committed offensive with any large portion of their strength against a lesser force is going to (typically) steamroll over the disadvantaged side.

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@Quantus again, that comment was said half-jokingly and I extracted the meaningful parts from it when asked. I pointed out that I tried to be careful with the structure of the sentence to try to make it clear that it was half said in jest

As for Kholinar, it did fall. It was designed to be a trap and Azure would have lost eventually, which she did. We don't even see the Fused using the more intensive Surges there, only Gravitation for flight. They clearly intended to take the city but their primary goal seems to have been taking down the Radiants

Yeah, Urithiru was vital. That was what I was getting at. It's just that this entire thread is about a military coalition between Radiants & normies, talking about fortresses' role in warfare strategy. I thought the reference to a Urithiru and why it was necessary over many individual strongholds (though the Knights Radiant did have them) was apparent from the very beginning

Don't let strangers on the internet rile you up, especially when they didn't even mean to in the first place. Sorry if I hurt or irritated you that much

Edited by Honorless
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1 hour ago, Karger said:

I find myself doubting either side used siege engines of any kind during most of these.  Remember the Heralds had to help these people into the bronze age.  Also the singers had thunderclasts and humans had surgebinders which make them kind of redundant.

Now you are touching on the strategic. At such loss rates we are talking about naked survival and total war. You do not seek to attack the other side's armed forces. You wish to kill women and children. Hence the primary goal is to devastate rural areas. You attack cities only because you cannot afford to be trapped between two forces.

Quote

Syl can predict Storms within a day or so.  She does so in OB.

Giving you the distance to the next storm shelter you can operate at without slow, portable shelters or Surgebinders.

Quote

Every few days there is a highstorm.  Humans in modern Roshar find that sailing under those conditions are impossible.  I have a hard time believing that maritime tec was used much at all by anyone.  Theylens might use it sometimes but even that was probably limited to coastal movements.  Actual conflict on the seas I very much doubt.

Amphibious operations.

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Fair enough, but I think they should be considered, and Id argue that actual Combat is not the only relevant instance.  For example: Oathgates are a Fabrial alternative to Transportation, and specifically one that can be used for large-scale movement of non-Invested troops.  Soulcasters and Regrowth Farbials (both confirmed present in that era) are key tactical advantages that arguably more useful off the battlefield (or adjacent to it for Regrowth).  Soulcasters in particular were one of the single most critical resources off the battlefield because that was the primary source of manufactured things like Iron and Steel, where the mundane populace was otherwise reduced to pre-Bronze Age capabilities.

Can you built a fortification with a cohesion fabrial. How would you use abrasion, tension or gravitation. They need an advanced UI.

Quote

Well, Azure's group managed to do precisely that for quite a while, and they had one pseudo-shardeblade and no Surgebinders.  Had the city Leadership not wasted the vast majority of their food stores, they would have been holding with no Surge support at all.

No. Those Fused were probing and harrassing. That was no serious attempt to take the city.

Quote

I disagree, though I could be wrong.  The difference is that literally every single Singer has the capability of becoming one of them, none of them sit it out because they are all expected to have some form (may or may not be a form of Power, but in a fully Odium dominated society I think it's likely), and these forms arent limted by requiring a Sentient Spren, they can only require the lesser spren (of which I assume there are orders of magnitude more than the sentient breeds).

That still does not make them easy to find. To put it bluntly: insufficient data. Fascinating, but conclusions are totally different based on assumptions which are all plausible

Quote

Fair enough.  Holding ANY location against a superior force is going to be cost-intensive, but Id argue that the nature of that superiority doesn't change the fundamental fact, and still doesnt negate the value of Fortifications large and small.  

Exactly. A fortification makes it easier for the smaller force.

1 hour ago, Bigmikey357 said:

The major implication that I see with regards to warfare on Roshar with mixed forces is that despite the tech level siege warfare never really gets a chance to develop.  There's no such thing as year long sieges on a planet with highstorms. You cannot starve them out or have them succumb to sickness. Sanitation isn't a problem as all waste gets Soulcast to smoke.  Fortification is really important as it gives the defenders much more advantage than earth armies, many of the disadvantages negated by both local climate and manipulation of surges. Therefore the most effective mixed armies are raiders. Small squad tactics pay huge dividends. 

Add to that, that sieges are harder on a city than on a castle, as you have more civilians to feed. Not an issue on Roshar.
My second point was that movement is also less important on Roshar.

Edited by Oltux72
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5 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Don't let strangers on the internet rile you up, especially when they didn't even mean to in the first place. Sorry if I hurt or irritated you that much

Not irritated, just was having a conversation that got derailed by a half-joking statement that I took as normal theory participation.  I was trying to understand and address your point, thinking it was a serious opinion rather than a joke I should have just ignored.    

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Huh, it did get sorta derailed, didn't it? Sorry @Oltux72! And this is the second time on your thread too, isn't it? The other time with Karger... In my defense, I did continue on with the topic in these posts, though almost completely concentrated on one fortress in particular

Edited by Honorless
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Just now, Honorless said:

Huh, it did get sorta derailed, didn't it? Sorry @Oltux72! And this is the second time on your thread too, isn't it? The other time with Karger... In my defense, I did continue on with the topic in those posts, though almost completely concentrated on one fortress in particular

No problem. Spontaneous short reactions point out where hidden unquestioned assumptions are.

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27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Now you are touching on the strategic. At such loss rates we are talking about naked survival and total war. You do not seek to attack the other side's armed forces. You wish to kill women and children. Hence the primary goal is to devastate rural areas. You attack cities only because you cannot afford to be trapped between two forces.

If I am correct singers were likely semi nomadic or in cities.  I do not think humans would tolerate a large enemy presence on land they could use.

28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Giving you the distance to the next storm shelter you can operate at without slow, portable shelters or Surgebinders.

This one was just a small note.  I agree that without spanreads this would not matter to most people.

29 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Amphibious operations.

Assuming that the only available ships are for fishing you are not going to get much tunage out of them which makes supply or the movement of large numbers of troops much less feasible.  Maybe you could use them to cross a lake or river but that seems to be it as far as I can tell.

32 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Can you built a fortification with a cohesion fabrial

Sure.  We see a stoneward build a stable set have handholds into a cliff.  Making a trench would be quite easy.  You could even orient it for drainage.  You can make walls too.

34 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No. Those Fused were probing and harrassing. That was no serious attempt to take the city.

Prior to the everstorm the fused would have risked their "lives" until the next desolation.  Taking the city would have involved a few of them dying by ambush in close confines.

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5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Can you built a fortification with a cohesion fabrial. How would you use abrasion, tension or gravitation. They need an advanced UI.

Hard to say, we dont know how most of those work.  Most would require combinations, I think, and all will be more labor intensive than Soulcasting.  Cohesion lets you shape matter, so make blocks and walls and things without quarrying, replaces stonecutting tools.  Abrasion and Gravation would make maneuvering those blocks into place a lot easier.  But those are basically accomplishing the Pyramids-type construction without a massive Slave workforce, but it will still take time. 

Tension is probably the easiest:  all we know about what it does is "taking something flexible and making it rigid" which should be able to turn any number of things into temporary fortifications at least, and I think theres a reasonable possibility that Half-shard operate on Tension.    

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

No. Those Fused were probing and harrassing. That was no serious attempt to take the city.

If they could have steamrolled over them as easily as you describe, I dont think that there would have been any need for Probing and Harassing operations.  Those are tactics designed to wear down a defending force through attrition, which was certainly effective, though they would have worked much faster without Hoid's meddling.  

But your point is valid.  My personally opinion is that while her force was entirely over-matched and/doomed, they still made a decent showing that proved Surges alone arent an "I Win" button. They always were substantially over-matched in numbers, and if I recall correctly those numbers were what eventually overran the city, not Surgebinders.  (Am I remembering that right? My opinion would pivot quite a bit on that point.)

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

That still does not make them easy to find. To put it bluntly: insufficient data. Fascinating, but conclusions are totally different based on assumptions which are all plausible

Concur :)

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Add to that, that sieges are harder on a city than on a castle, as you have more civilians to feed. Not an issue on Roshar.

Im glad you said this, because I was using the medieval terms differently:  I generally consider a Castle to be a large, capital city sort of citadel, where in any siege is going to have a town/city's worth of population to protect  (even if all the town buildings arent inside the walls).  Without a town or some other civilian population, Id call it a garrison or Outpost.  But that's not to say my usage is historically accurate or anything, just the result of too many Warcraft RTS games in my youth.  

5 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

My second point was that movement is also less important on Roshar.

 

How so? Id think that the travel/marching limitations that the Highstorm imposes would make transportation, since a lot of tactical calculations are based entirely on how far you can get between Highstorms.  

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

The tech level was essentially somewhere between classical antiquity and medieval times. Even that masks some difference to those periods on Earth. First, Roshar has little to no soil. That means earth works require Radiant support. You cannot dig a trench. You cannot apply the Roman tactic of building a damm to overcome a fortress's wall.

Maaaybe?  Crem offers a lot of possibilities, it's essentially raining concrete.

4 hours ago, Oltux72 said:


Second, there are Highstorms to deal with. This has stark consequences.

  • siege engines become harder to operate. Your stuff has to withstand a hurricane.
  • you need supply trains or Surgebinders to quarter your troops in the field. Taking a Highstorm without shelter is detrimental to health, morale and equipment. It is not an option you can use for ordinary operations. That means most of your troops will be as slow as a chull pulling a cart.
  • You cannot maneuver freely. If your forces are too far away from the next shelter when you get reports of coming Highstorm, you are in a serious emergency.

I think you may be underestimating seige tactics. The Bridges were essentially Siege Engines, and they got used just fine. And Highstorms need to be anticipated and accounted for, but they arent daily so the Siege activities would still be viable most days. In a siege the main goal is to cut off supplies and starve them out, with engagements mostly used to fatigue them and deplete their resources, so the attackers can retreat out to a larger radius for the Storms and still accomplish that.  And if the attacking force are Singers, they have a lot less trouble in the Highstorms (which was a major advantage on the shattered plains)

To my mind the entire war on the Shattered Plains was an example of one long Rosharan-style Siege. Until they lost sight of their true purpose the goal had been to contain the Singers and then penetrate to their population center in the middle.  It used Siege engines, combinations of Shardbearers and traditions troops, and was limited by the Highstorms but not negated by it.  The Human's biggest limitation was how far they could move their Force and still expect to reach Shelter before the next Storm.  

Speaking of Shelter, it's important to remember that it can be as little as a covered wagon like Kaladin was across a lot of Roshar.  The Highstorms are far more powerful in eastern places like the Shattered Plains but far less dramatic the further west they go. So, for example, the Highstorm should have little to no effect on a Siege against the Shin (other than as a source of storrmlight).  

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2 hours ago, Quantus said:

But your point is valid.  My personally opinion is that while her force was entirely over-matched and/doomed, they still made a decent showing that proved Surges alone arent an "I Win" button. They always were substantially over-matched in numbers, and if I recall correctly those numbers were what eventually overran the city, not Surgebinders.  (Am I remembering that right? My opinion would pivot quite a bit on that point.)

And the thunderclast bashing down the front gate.

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2 hours ago, Quantus said:

alone arent an "I Win" button. They always were substantially over-matched in numbers, and if I recall correctly those numbers were what eventually overran the city, not Surgebinders.  (Am I remembering that right? My opinion would pivot quite a bit on that point.)

It was a mass of regular singers who penetrated to the palace so yes I agree with you.  As does Adolin's professional military opinion.  

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Maaaybe?  Crem offers a lot of possibilities, it's essentially raining concrete.

Agreed.  It might take a couple weeks but you could have a rough barricade at least.  Just make a framework out of wood or shell of some kind and let the crem fall on it.

 

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