Spook was right.

[Karger]

8 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

were thinking that since we have the medallions already, there will be no need for future spiking and thus spikes are not necessary, it make more sense to me. I was thinking broadly. If spikes were used at anytime during their crelation then they are necessary

Considering what we know of the metallic arts indicates that it is not necessary.  I stand by my belief in this case as reasonably well founded.

[Steel Inquisitive]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

Considering what we know of the metallic arts indicates that it is not necessary.  I stand by my belief in this case as reasonably well founded.

Considering what we don't know about medallions and their creation, I stand in my belief that we don't know if spikes are necessary.

Have a good day.

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Steel Inquisitive said:

Have a good day.

You too!

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

I think some people will take it the other way; a piece of my soul will continue to exist after the rest has dissipated. Prior to donating you would have to be informed of all potential side effects - including that one.

Thing is (for myself and myself only, just explaining how I would view it), in situations such as euthanasia, and the death penalty, there are legal requirements to what constitutes death, and what is cruel and unusual. If it is shown (which I think it could be, they just have not found out how to yet) that an observable, speaking, and reasoned "you" shows up in the cognitive realm, regardless anyone's personal belief system, then it must be established whether it has rights. Add that it does in fact feel pain, and "death" would be legally defined as when that cognitive self discorporated. Regardless what that discorporation ultimately means. If it can then be observed and see that that cognitive self is torn up and damaged, then it (for me) goes into ethical implications of cruel and unusual punishment. To my knowledge there is no way to anesthetize the cognitive aspect. That I think would be a huge speed bump for hemalurgy donation. 

Quote

Allomantic pewter spikes go in the shoulders, and can be removed without killing the person. Yes, it will scar. So will my three year olds trache, when it’s removed. Would it have been better for her to die than be scarred? Considering the alternative is for the child to never have a chance to live, I think the risks (and the scars) are worth it.

It still goes back to (for me) that as per WoB, you are stapling someone else's "self" to your child. Brief or not, the child's identity and sense of self is still forming. It will have (to me) rather large ramifications. Especially when Brandon has said doing hemalurgy on a pregnant woman is a very very bad thing for the child in the womb. 

Quote

The closest I can find to Hemalurgy (as in the system itself, not the users) being evil is that it was conceived as the evil system in the Allomantic, Feruchemic, Hemalurgic trinity. Which is not the same as saying it’s evil. If you have a WOB staying otherwise, please post it.

So, totally being genuine, and not condescending or snarky at all. Please take this with the intention it is meant. But a page or so back in this thread I posted every WoB concerning hemalurgy, how Brandon views it, and its effect on donor and receiver. I posted upwards to 10 to 12 WoB. Brandon calls hemalurgy bad two to three times, calls it evil twice I believe, and calls it horrible maybe two or three times. If you request, I will copy paste them all again, but it really is all there, you just have to go to a prior page. (page 2, I checked)

Quote

Brandon has said numerous times that the Shards and their systems are not inherently evil (or good), but some more easily lend themselves to it than others. Hemalurgy definitely falls into that category.

Brandon has said the shards themselves are not inherently evil. But he also has commented that combining Dakhor and hemalurgy is very very very bad. I don't think I posted that one, but I can pull it up and add it here if you like. 

Quote

As an aside, so you know my general perspective: As an Orthodox Jew I am against ending any life prematurely - for any reason. That said, I’m also a classic liberal, which means I strongly believe that everyone has the right to make their own choices (so long as they do not directly adversely effect others, obviously), however much I disagree with them. So I am for legalizing a lot of things I personally disagree with!

No problem. Thank you for opening up about that. I personally am an atheist and could be identified as a liberal but for myself so long as religious limitations are not imposed on others, that properly formed and regulated laws are necessary. 

Quote

The latter leads me to the opinion that, if someone wants to donate part of their soul - for whatever reason- they should be allowed to do so. The former is why I feel that you should try to preserve life, even if there is a grave risk. So I’d be willing to use an Allomantic pewter spike to try and save an infant’s life, but I’d also allow someone to choose to end their life with a spike. 

Thing is (for myself), if donating part of the soul causes irreparable harm to the donor and the receiver, then I think it should not be employed. We could make leaps and bounds in scientific advancement if we didn't worry what happened to the people we test on. But we have a code of ethics that prevents that, and it is legally binding. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+ILuvHats]

I won't comment on the ethicality of hemalurgy. However, I think this thread in and of itself is proof that unless knowledge of hemalurgy is suppressed, it will likely become a not unheard of practice on Scadrial. Obviously, even with the knowledge that we have of hemalurgy's effects, there is room for debate, and Scadrial is far from becoming as knowledgeable as we are. And even once they become familiar with the side effects of how hemalurgy impact the spirit web, they don't have Brandon, the god of the universe for all intents and purposes, telling them the practice is inherently evil. So, the side in favor of legal use would gain more weight than seen in this thread. Though medallions will likely become a much preferred practice.

As for whether or not creating medallions involves hemalurgy, we obviously don't know yet. However, without proof either way, I like to believe that it does. If medallions don't involve it, hemalurgy will become a moot practice. Medallions provide all of the same advantages without any of the downsides. So in this scenario, we will likely never see hemalurgy on the scale of the Set again, and its use will be relegated to rare, individual circumstances. And the thing is, I really want to see the ramifications that hemalurgy could have on society, and on a massive scale. Since at this point, the only way this could happen is if hemalurgy is required to produce medallions, I am actually hoping that this theory proves to be true.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, ILuvHats said:

I won't comment on the ethicality of hemalurgy. However, I think this thread in and of itself is proof that unless knowledge of hemalurgy is suppressed, it will likely become a not unheard of practice on Scadrial. Obviously, even with the knowledge that we have of hemalurgy's effects, there is room for debate, and Scadrial is far from becoming as knowledgeable as we are. And even once they become familiar with the side effects of how hemalurgy impact the spirit web, they don't have Brandon, the god of the universe for all intents and purposes, telling them the practice is inherently evil. So, the side in favor of legal use would gain more weight than seen in this thread. Though medallions will likely become a much preferred practice.

I dunno. Personally I see it playing out very much like lobotomies. Initially people were thrilled with the results, even though a good chunk were turned into drooling and unresponsive (very few were capable of functioning normally after though still suffered from epileptic seizures, while others committed suicide), it was still seen as an improvement over mental illness. But as doctors learned more about the functions of the brain and what a lobotomy does to the individual, it (according to wikipedia) became known as "a disparaged procedure, a byword for medical barbarism and an exemplary instance of the medical trampling of patient's rights". Actually (for humor) I think it is rather apropos linking lobotomies with hemalurgy. Both involve taking a rather long spike, and driving it into a person lol. 

[StanLemon]

1 hour ago, ILuvHats said:

As for whether or not creating medallions involves hemalurgy, we obviously don't know yet. However, without proof either way, I like to believe that it does. If medallions don't involve it, hemalurgy will become a moot practice. Medallions provide all of the same advantages without any of the downsides. So in this scenario, we will likely never see hemalurgy on the scale of the Set again, and its use will be relegated to rare, individual circumstances. And the thing is, I really want to see the ramifications that hemalurgy could have on society, and on a massive scale. Since at this point, the only way this could happen is if hemalurgy is required to produce medallions, I am actually hoping that this theory proves to be true.

Even if they aren't part of medallions I still don't think they would become a moot practice, at least not at first. At least for now, hemalurgy is the only confirmed method of boosting Allomantic strength (unless you are lucky enough to get Lerasium), and they are harder to remove than the medallions would be. Then you have constructs that can be created from the practice which I highly doubt we've seen the limits to. And a really big one is how it can interplay with other magic systems which I'm sure will become relevant in era 4

 

Edit: oh and let's not forget that it somehow brought Kelsier back to life

Edited January 30, 2020 by StanLemon

[+ILuvHats]

30 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Even if they aren't part of medallions I still don't think they would become a moot practice, at least not at first. At least for now, hemalurgy is the only confirmed method of boosting Allomantic strength (unless you are lucky enough to get Lerasium), and they are harder to remove than the medallions would be. Then you have constructs that can be created from the practice which I highly doubt we've seen the limits to. And a really big one is how it can interplay with other magic systems which I'm sure will become relevant in era 4

It’ll see use, just not on a systemic scale. And systemic use is what I’m really excited about seeing.

58 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I dunno. Personally I see it playing out very much like lobotomies. Initially people were thrilled with the results, even though a good chunk were turned into drooling and unresponsive (very few were capable of functioning normally after though still suffered from epileptic seizures, while others committed suicide), it was still seen as an improvement over mental illness. But as doctors learned more about the functions of the brain and what a lobotomy does to the individual, it (according to wikipedia) became known as "a disparaged procedure, a byword for medical barbarism and an exemplary instance of the medical trampling of patient's rights". Actually (for humor) I think it is rather apropos linking lobotomies with hemalurgy. Both involve taking a rather long spike, and driving it into a person lol. 

That’s an interesting RL comparison. I’ve actually been thinking about a different real-world analogue. Now take this with a grain of salt, but I actually think there are some connections between the debates over the morality of hemalurgy and the real world debates over abortions. Hear me out. 

In my mind, the physical effects of hemalurgy on the donor are negligible as long as it’s only practiced on terminally ill people who have given their consent. The ethically questionable impact on the donor is the desecration of their sDNA. This effect isn’t questionable. However, as somebody in the thread previously mentioned, the nature of the spirit web is called into question. Is the spirit web actually the person’s soul? Should the soul still be considered the person? After a person physically dies, does whatever is left over qualify as human? If it’s decided the answers to these questions are no, then people can justify the negative effects of hemalurgy on the donor. Similarly, the arguments around abortion really come down to whether or not a fetus should be considered a person, if they should have the same rights as fully grown human. In a way, they mirror each other since hemalurgy calls into question the identity of a person after death, while abortion calls into question he identity of someone before they’re born.

I’ll be the first to admit that this comparison is hardly perfect. In the case of hemalurgy, the negative effects on the recipient also have to be considered (e.g. mental instability. Plus, there are a lot more arguments in favor of abortion than there are of hemalurgy. Still, I think it’s an interesting comparison.

 

[Quantus]

39 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Even if they aren't part of medallions I still don't think they would become a moot practice, at least not at first. At least for now, hemalurgy is the only confirmed method of boosting Allomantic strength (unless you are lucky enough to get Lerasium), and they are harder to remove than the medallions would be. Then you have constructs that can be created from the practice which I highly doubt we've seen the limits to. And a really big one is how it can interplay with other magic systems which I'm sure will become relevant in era 4

 

Edit: oh and let's not forget that it somehow brought Kelsier back to life

Agreed, there will always be a place for Hemalurgy, for several reasons:

• It's waaaay easier than medallions, and the only downside is a moral argument, not a practical limitation.
• Hemalurgy can steal Traits as well as Powers, medallions cannot.
• Hemalurgy can increase/mulitply the strength of Allomancy, and I dont think Medallions are capable of this
• Healurgy only requires Knowledge to use, no sDNA or Connections required.
• Hemalurgy can Interact with ANY magic system per WOB, it was specifically designed to be broadly useful across the entire Cosmere.  
• Humans are not the only way to Charge spikes...

 

 

Personally, I think that by the time Era 4 rolls around Hemalurgy will have evolved into a known and accepted scientific practice of Spiritual Surgery, viewed as wildly hazardous and subtle (and with odd philosophic implications) but lacking any particular moral slant; just like Brain Surgery, in other words.

[Pathfinder]

29 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

It’ll see use, just not on a systemic scale. And systemic use is what I’m really excited about seeing.

That’s an interesting RL comparison. I’ve actually been thinking about a different real-world analogue. Now take this with a grain of salt, but I actually think there are some connections between the debates over the morality of hemalurgy and the real world debates over abortions. Hear me out. 

In my mind, the physical effects of hemalurgy on the donor are negligible as long as it’s only practiced on terminally ill people who have given their consent. The ethically questionable impact on the donor is the desecration of their sDNA. This effect isn’t questionable. However, as somebody in the thread previously mentioned, the nature of the spirit web is called into question. Is the spirit web actually the person’s soul? Should the soul still be considered the person? After a person physically dies, does whatever is left over qualify as human? If it’s decided the answers to these questions are no, then people can justify the negative effects of hemalurgy on the donor. Similarly, the arguments around abortion really come down to whether or not a fetus should be considered a person, if they should have the same rights as fully grown human. In a way, they mirror each other since hemalurgy calls into question the identity of a person after death, while abortion calls into question he identity of someone before they’re born.

I’ll be the first to admit that this comparison is hardly perfect. In the case of hemalurgy, the negative effects on the recipient also have to be considered (e.g. mental instability. Plus, there are a lot more arguments in favor of abortion than there are of hemalurgy. Still, I think it’s an interesting comparison.

 

Totally respect your opinion, and my reply is not to indicate you are wrong or not. Just responding in the manner as an atheist on earth, as kingsdaughter mentioned her own religious beliefs and alignment as it were. For myself, I believe there is a difference between the cognitive self issue, and abortion because I mentioned in a prior post that the cognitive self can potentially be viewed, interacted with, and spoken to. The cognitive self can reason and demonstrate sapience. For myself, a fetus cannot. So for myself, I would not equate the two. But having said that, again, I totally acknowledge and respect if you think differently in regards to a fetus and wish to connect the two. Just for myself, i do not. 

[Karger]

On 1/30/2020 at 0:57 PM, ILuvHats said:

If medallions don't involve it, hemalurgy will become a moot practice. Medallions provide all of the same advantages without any of the downsides

To be fair.  There will probably continue to be communities of rich idiots who do it from time to time.  However as a practice that many people do I seriously doubt it.

 

Edited April 1, 2020 by Karger