Spook was right.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

I am specifically referring to his suggestion to spike out metalborn at the end of the natural life so their powers can continue to benefit society. Many theories suggest that this very principle is what allows universal metalminds to be created.

Beyond the metallic powers other traits could be wildly useful to pass on. Imagine a physical therapist being able to give a patient an iron spike (strength) or a dying grandfather being able to give his depressed grandson his emotional fortitude through a zinc spike.

Is there anything I'm missing? Some glaring problem that invalidates this?

[Karger]

11 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Is there anything I'm missing? Some glaring problem that invalidates this?

Well being spiked has side effects.  Do you want your grandson to be more ruinous?  Killing the elderly for personal gain even if they are willing is problematic ethically.  What if they have a degenerative nerve disease and are not competent to make decisions?    Finally if spiking becomes common knowledge then a black market trade will spring up for less ethically acquired spikes.  Also the entire practice is kind of barbaric.

[Kingsdaughter613]

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

Well being spiked has side effects.  Do you want your grandson to be more ruinous?  Killing the elderly for personal gain even if they are willing is problematic ethically.  What if they have a degenerative nerve disease and are not competent to make decisions?    Finally if spiking becomes common knowledge then a black market trade will spring up for less ethically acquired spikes.  Also the entire practice is kind of barbaric.

It wouldn’t have to be barbaric though. Not anymore than some organ donations.

Obviously, the donor would have to be competent (either at the time they request spiking, or when they sign some sort of document allowing it.) The exception would be minor children and in cases where power of attorney has been granted (as in RL organ donors.) It would have to be very formal and legal, with clear oversight to prevent abuse.

Obviously, there are a lot of people who would refuse to do it for religious reasons, and many others who just don’t like the idea. The actual number of donors may end up being fairly low (again, like RL.) Some people will be horrified at the thought of giving up part of their soul; others will see it as a part of them living on post-mortem.

Spiking would be performed by a professional hemalurgist, under full anesthesia. It would probably be quite painless and very quick.

[Quantus]

32 minutes ago, Karger said:

Well being spiked has side effects.  Do you want your grandson to be more ruinous?  Killing the elderly for personal gain even if they are willing is problematic ethically.  What if they have a degenerative nerve disease and are not competent to make decisions?    Finally if spiking becomes common knowledge then a black market trade will spring up for less ethically acquired spikes.  Also the entire practice is kind of barbaric.

Agreed, though there's an argument to be made that spiking the terminally ill is no different than Organ Donation (though it would get bogged down in the nature of the Spiritweb and soul, Im sure).  Setting that one bit aside, any spike makes a person more susceptible to emotional Allomancy, so there's that Con.  It messes with your Identity, so if you are already a ferring there might be some logistic issues with you existing metalmind stores.

As a general statement, our current (admittedly incomplete) understanding of Medallions indicates that spike should eventually become almost entirely unnecessary, since there is very little that a spike can steal that couldnt be accomplished bloodlessly with Medallions (this assumes spikes arent needed in Medallion creation, which I personally think they are).

Eventually I think the two most common uses of Hemalurgy are going to be Aluminum spikes to remove the abilities of convicts, and Identity Spikes to allow post-mortem access to metalminds, which would then become an accumulated family wealth not unlike Breaths on Nalthis. 

While we're on the topic I also think it should be possible to spike a full Allomancer with a Single Connection spike and the right Bind Points.  Lerasium creates an Allomancer by making a permanent Connection to Preservation.  That Connection should itself be a viable target of Duralumin Hemalurgy the same as any other.  

[Karger]

21 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Spiking would be performed by a professional hemalurgist, under full anesthesia. It would probably be quite painless and very quick.

I see no real indication that it requires any real knowledge to preform hemalurgy.  Just some basic anatomy should do it.  I also worry about the influence both parties open themselves to.  Other then that I find your points valid except for one.   Organ donation saves lives.  Hemalurgy would not it would just make a few people more powerful at the expense of others.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

So there is a lot we do not know. For myself, and myself alone, based on WoB I have read, hemalurgy damages whoever is spiked (both ripped from, and stapled to). Even with a willing donor, you are harming the person it is taken from and it is given to. The brief time they are existent before passing to the beyond (not saying there is a beyond, just using that term for the discorporation of the investiture of the person in the cognitive realm) you can see them torn up. Harmony does not like hemalurgy and wished the knowledge to be lost. So I believe once the denizens of Scadrial realize what happens to you after you are spiked, they will not be as inclined to volunteer. 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Halyo_Alex]

All this talk of comparing hemalurgic spike donation to organ donation and how it seems like such a dark thing that people wouldn't want, is reminding me of the argument that we shouldn't shun medical practices just because we're afraid of it, that instead we should accept it and find ways to make it as safely practiced as possible, because if nobody is regulating it, then EVERYONE doing it can do it however they see fit, with no rules or guidelines for proper procedure (the example from the original argument was Genetic Modification through CRISPR, and whether or not it should be used to modify human beings for their health or advantage).

Basically, "medical hemalurgy" or "hemalurgic donation", whatever it should be called, ought to be a legal thing someone can sign up for like organ donation, with as many rules and guidelines as is necessary to regulate it to a safe, controlled practice, that requires a specific medical license of some sort, so that only the right people are allowed to perform it without consequence. The kind of person you can trust to have a clear judgement on whether or not the patient is clear of mind when they ask to sign up to be spiked, or whether there would be some sort of issue with spiking the donor at the time. A real medical professional, who has studied and trained to be the right person to ask those kinds of questions, not some crazy hemalurgist from the Set or some kind of metalborn black market.

[Karger]

9 minutes ago, Halyo_Alex said:

hemalurgic donation", whatever it should be called, ought to be a legal thing someone can sign up for like organ donation, with as many rules and guidelines as is necessary to regulate it to a safe, controlled practice, that requires a specific medical license of some sort, so that only the right people are allowed to perform it without consequence

But it is not like anyone's life will be saved by such a practice.  On the other hand each operation does run the risk of killing someone even at the best of times.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

But it is not like anyone's life will be saved by such a practice.  On the other hand each operation does run the risk of killing someone even at the best of times.

Any surgery has risk, but we still allow cosmetic surgeries that aren't necessary, and in many cases lives could be saved or at least improved. Iron spikes in particular come to mind. A surgery starts going south, shove it them, they live (admittedly this might not be quite how it works but I think the point still stands).

Yes there would be corruption and black markets, but there always is in any system. I (personally, and respecting others opinions) think that the potential gain outweighs the risk.

Just a side note, I imagine the actual powers being akin to a family heirloom passed down through the generations. 

Second side note, yeah a lot of this will be invalidated by the "medallion revolution" but we're probably going to have to use hemalurgy to get there.

Third side note, I do see most hemalurgy being non power granting.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[Halyo_Alex]

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

But it is not like anyone's life will be saved by such a practice.  On the other hand each operation does run the risk of killing someone even at the best of times.

That's exactly why it needs to be a voluntary practice. And if hemalurgic spikes ARE needed to create Medallions (which I think they are), someone donating their F-Gold at the end of their long, healthy life could save MULTIPLE lives later by temporarily granting a sick or injured patient F-Gold to tap and heal themselves. Or granting someone A-Pewter if those are scarce.

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Halyo_Alex said:

That's exactly why it needs to be a voluntary practice. And if hemalurgic spikes ARE needed to create Medallions (which I think they are), someone donating their F-Gold at the end of their long, healthy life could save MULTIPLE lives later by temporarily granting a sick or injured patient F-Gold to tap and heal themselves. Or granting someone A-Pewter if those are scarce.

1 hour ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Any surgery has risk, but we still allow cosmetic surgeries that aren't necessary, and in many cases lives could be saved or at least improved. Iron spikes in particular come to mind. A surgery starts going south, shove it them, they live (admittedly this might not be quite how it works but I think the point still stands).

Those surgeries are ethically problematic but they do not require the help of donors who may well die as a result of donation especially if old as is being proposed.  Even if they do not die the donors are likely to have a pretty terrible quality of life afterward as they will be at high risk of infection and depression.  As to the potential of saving lives through the use of gold and pewter.  These benefits will only be available to the extraordinarily wealthy not the average citizen.  As to the thought that black markets will always exist.  This would not have been true if no one had passed on the knowledge of the procedure.  That cat is clearly out of the bag but Spook and Harmony had no way of knowing this.  All things considered.  Using southern technology seems like it would give all of the real advantages in terms of quality of life without the pesky ethical dilemmas.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

Those surgeries are ethically problematic

They are, but I believe that whether or not you participate needs to be a personal decision. 

20 minutes ago, Karger said:

Even if they do not die the donors are likely to have a pretty terrible quality of life afterward as they will be at high risk of infection and depression.

I had not considered quality of life after donation because I figured you were pretty much just dead. Not sure if a 100% (or close to) mortality rate for donating makes it better or worse in your mind but I see it as a plus.  No ones gonna donate unless there all "yeah I want to die."

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

As to the potential of saving lives through the use of gold and pewter.  These benefits will only be available to the extraordinarily wealthy not the average citizen. 

But the basic spikes would be available in much higher quantity. Not quite as high, but comparable to modern day organ donation. 

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

All things considered.  Using southern technology seems like it would give all of the real advantages in terms of quality of life without the pesky ethical dilemmas.

I agree, but as I stated before I believe to produce southern technology (at least at first)  requires hemalurgy. I feel that this strengthens my argument because a relatively small population of donors could create benefits for generations. 

I'm certainly not saying people should be requires to donate that would be horrible. But I think everyone should have the option. Whether I'm a metalborn who wants to pass his power to my kid or just a citizen who wants to help people with an everyday problem the option should be available.

I'm starting to ramble so I'll make my last point quickly. I believe basic hemalurgy (not creating metalborn) has the potential to be more common that medallions and do more for society. 

[Honorless]

The things Hemalurgy can grant or "cure" are not life threatening, most of them are powers. Let's be honest, if Hemalurgy did become a known art, medicine is not what it would be used for. Better alternatives exist in the Cosmere, and would come to exist on Scadrial, for these. Soothing/Rioting for depression instead of Hemalurgic Mental Fortitude and Healthmind instead of Hemalurgic Health. The best use of Hemalurgy would probably be Aluminium, to take out harmful aspects of Investiture from people 

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But the basic spikes would be available in much higher quantity. Not quite as high, but comparable to modern day organ donation. 

I seriously doubt that.  Plenty of people opt into organ donation but in this case only 1 in about 150 people qualify.  Of those only 1/8 of the people have the spikes you are looking for(this is just with the numbers of alomancy I am willing to bet they will be worse for feruchemy) and of those I have a feeling that most will not want to donate.   If by the basic spikes as you call them you mean something like strength I do not think those would help with anyone's quality of life considering the side effects.

8 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

They are, but I believe that whether or not you participate needs to be a personal decision. 

Maybe.  However publicizing this so that a black market develops seems like a bad idea.

9 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I agree, but as I stated before I believe to produce southern technology (at least at first)  requires hemalurgy

I happen to disagree and there is a WoB that seems to back up my position.  However anyone can hold the byands of morning and we have indications on how those were made  and that they do not require hemalurgy.  Also while our medical system is far from perfect.  We get on much better then they do on scadrail.

16 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I'm starting to ramble so I'll make my last point quickly. I believe basic hemalurgy (not creating metalborn) has the potential to be more common that medallions and do more for society. 

I am not sure where your belief comes from and I further ask is it is possible to discover such a thing without undergoing some kind of testing(kind that took TLR over 1000 years to get nowhere).

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

I see no real indication that it requires any real knowledge to preform hemalurgy.  Just some basic anatomy should do it.  I also worry about the influence both parties open themselves to.  Other then that I find your points valid except for one.   Organ donation saves lives.  Hemalurgy would not it would just make a few people more powerful at the expense of others.

You need to know where to put the Spike to get the attribute you want. Also, only a licensed professional hemalurgist would be legally allowed to perform the procedure.

 

5 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

So there is a lot we do not know. For myself, and myself alone, based on WoB I have read, hemalurgy damages whoever is spiked (both ripped from, and stapled to). Even with a willing donor, you are harming the person it is taken from and it is given to. The brief time they are existent before passing to the beyond (not saying there is a beyond, just using that term for the discorporation of the investiture of the person in the cognitive realm) you can see them torn up. Harmony does not like hemalurgy and wished the knowledge to be lost. So I believe once the denizens of Scadrial realize what happens to you after you are spiked, they will not be as inclined to volunteer. 

In Judaism we believe that a body needs to be buried whole or it causes the soul pain. That’s probably the closest you’ll find to a RL version of that. It’s why Orthodox Jews generally don’t donate vital tissues. (And yes, this does cause major shortages in general, and Israel specifically.)

The whole idea is that it is an opt in system. Anyone bothered by the thought of spiritual pain/damage won’t do it - just like Orthodox Jews usually won’t be vital organ donors.

Others won’t feel that way. Some will actually feel that it gives them a form of immortality.

And the spiking isn’t done immediately; it’s a ‘right to die’ sort of thing. It’s done on patients who are already dying, or are in tremendous pain and don’t want to continue. And there will be the same arguments in-world as in RL regarding how ethical ‘right to die’ is separate from the hemalurgic aspect.

I don’t see too many people doing it. I do see families having a spike in a bottle of Great-great Grandpa’s blood, that they take out for special occasions. The spikes would be heirlooms.

I do see some people offering to be spiked for science, with a hemalurgic researcher supervising the process of attempting a new bind point. And then there are those who offer themselves to be spiked for the greater good.

The final group? Death Row inmates get it as an option for execution. The spike goes to their families, unless they request otherwise. They can also choose to be shot, or receive a lethal dose of fentanyl.

 

 

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Also, only a licensed professional hemalurgist would be legally allowed to perform the procedure.

Considering them money involved and the intensives.  I doubt that will make much of a difference.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

If by the basic spikes as you call them you mean something like strength I do not think those would help with anyone's quality of life considering the side effects

I did, and it's quite possible it wouldn't be worth it. However I can't think of any examples of what the side effects of one spike might be.

17 minutes ago, Karger said:

Maybe.  However publicizing this so that a black market develops seems like a bad idea.

Again yes, there's a ton of gray area. In this case I'd compare it too there being a lot videos of surgery on YouTube but not a lot of people trying it in their basement. 

I think hemalurgy is complicated enough that without shardic influence you would need a lot of training. Because of that training it could be regulated in a way similar to how surgeons are regulated today.

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

I happen to disagree and there is a WoB that seems to back up my position.  However anyone can hold the byands of morning and we have indications on how those were made  and that they do not require hemalurgy.

But it required a fullborn. On modern Scadrial the only way to get enough powers in one person to do that is hemalurgy (or the bands of mourning thenselves).

26 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am not sure where your belief comes from and I further ask is it is possible to discover such a thing without undergoing some kind of testing(kind that took TLR over 1000 years to get nowhere).

I feel this way cause while only metalborn can provide a spike giving a metallic power, anyone can donate strength, their senses, emotional fortitude, etc.

Yes it would take experimentation, but so did heart transplant surgery. The main difference with TLR was I believe he was trying to make hemalurgic constructs which I would assume are much more complex. 

[Halyo_Alex]

1 minute ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

 The main difference with TLR was I believe he was trying to make hemalurgic constructs which I would assume are much more complex. 

Side note, it's always confused me how he never made a copper equivalent to the Koloss. Then again, maybe he assumed something with that much intelligence would find a way to overthrow him in mere weeks or days, so they were too much of a risk.

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I did, and it's quite possible it wouldn't be worth it. However I can't think of any examples of what the side effects of one spike might be.

It warps your soul.  Warbreaker spoilers

Spoiler

similar to a drab by my thinking.  It is going to likely increase your likelihood of developing mental illnesses.

3 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Again yes, there's a ton of gray area. In this case I'd compare it too there being a lot videos of surgery on YouTube but not a lot of people trying it in their basement. 

If there was a do it yourself surgery that granted superpowers on youtube that worked I would have issues and want that thing taken down so that homeless people are not lured in and used for this.

4 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I think hemalurgy is complicated enough that without shardic influence you would need a lot of training. Because of that training it could be regulated in a way similar to how surgeons are regulated today.

You need some knowledge of anatomy but it does not seem more complex then suturing and plenty of people can do that without a medical degree.  Just find the right vein stick metal in put it in blood and then put it in another vein.

6 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

But it required a fullborn. On modern Scadrial the only way to get enough powers in one person to do that is hemalurgy (or the bands of mourning thenselves).

Which the Kandra now have and can duplicate.

7 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I feel this way cause while only metalborn can provide a spike giving a metallic power, anyone can donate strength, their senses, emotional fortitude, etc.

Yes it would take experimentation, but so did heart transplant surgery. The main difference with TLR was I believe he was trying to make hemalurgic constructs which I would assume are much more complex. 

I am not a medical history expert but research experimental treatments are different from what you are proposing.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

19 minutes ago, Karger said:

You need some knowledge of anatomy but it does not seem more complex then suturing and plenty of people can do that without a medical degree.  Just find the right vein stick metal in put it in blood and then put it in another vein.

I think it would be more like acupuncture, and even more complicated than that.

21 minutes ago, Karger said:

Which the Kandra now have and can duplicate.

But I don't think they will. It seems far to active a prospect for the Kandra to facilitate.

23 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am not a medical history expert but research experimental treatments are different from what you are proposing.

Yeah in hindsight heart surgery was a very poor example. Still though I think we can compare it to modern day experimental medication. 

And last, but certainly not least.

25 minutes ago, Karger said:

It warps your soul.  Warbreaker spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Yes, but we don't know. If it causes significant side effects for the receiver it is a massive blow against the ethicallicity (might be a made up word) of hemalurgy. But the only way to find out is through experimentation and I think that it would be worth it for the potential gain.

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I think it would be more like acupuncture, and even more complicated than that.

This also does not require a medical degree.  Also assuming you have time it is not that difficult.  Remember you can measure 8 or 9 times if you want.

3 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Yeah in hindsight heart surgery was a very poor example. Still though I think we can compare it to modern day experimental medication. 

I think it clearly breaks several rules of ethical practice.

3 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

Yes, but we don't know. If it causes significant side effects for the receiver it is a massive blow against the ethicallicity (might be a made up word) of hemalurgy. But the only way to find out is through experimentation and I think that it would be worth it for the potential gain.

I admire your search for knowledge but I think there are better ways it could be directed.  Go worldhopping.  Check out SIlverlight.  They must admit new students sometimes.

Edited January 29, 2020 by Karger

[Elsecaller_17.5]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Check out SIlverlight.  They must admit new students sometimes.

I sure hope so, and I'd love a chance to visit Roshar (if I pick up a Nahel bond on the trip that's a pretty big plus).

[Bigmikey357]

I know that if I were in line to receive a spike I'd want the guy performing the procedure to be as knowledgeable as possible,  and a license would reassure me greatly.  I know I don't want some amateur you tuber spiking me under nearly any circumstance. In every book instance we've seen someone recieving a spike it has been through either Shardic intervention or practitioners who have performed the procedure dozens of times at least. Harmony hates the practice so Shardic intervention is likely out,  and nobody knows enough about Hemalurgic practices to ensure that one is getting the desired attributes. There are over 300 bind points in a human body and intent is a hit or miss process when it comes down to it.  I mean I know I'd be pissed to have someone die to give me strength and I end up a bronze ferring for instance.  Still weak but I'll never be cold again.  Great if I know what power I got. Not so great if I never discover my new gift. 

[Agent34]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Well being spiked has side effects.  Do you want your grandson to be more ruinous? 

I'm kind of surprised this was only brought up once. Hemalurgy might have wonderful outcomes for society but ultimately you'd be causing a decline in the mental stability of whoever receives a spike even without an eldritch horror invading your mind.

[Kingsdaughter613]

3 hours ago, Agent34 said:

I'm kind of surprised this was only brought up once. Hemalurgy might have wonderful outcomes for society but ultimately you'd be causing a decline in the mental stability of whoever receives a spike even without an eldritch horror invading your mind.

I have a theory that a willing donor may mitigate some of those (due to intent being very important in the Cosmere), and having only one spike doesn’t seem to cause issues - otherwise I doubt Saze would have the Kandra give out Spike earrings. Vin’s Spike earring didn’t really cause her issues until Ruin started to get free.

And yes, the idea isn’t that there would be a lot of these. It’s something that people who are already dying, and are planning to use medical intervention to speed it up, can do to give their families a literal piece of themselves to keep. Though I do foresee some members of poor families doing the procedure to give their children an inheritance. But, for the most part, I think they’d be sacred family heirlooms.

I do think Feruchemical gold and Allomantic pewter spikes would save lives though. To use a medallion, you need to know what it is. If you have gold feruchemy or Pewter allomancy, it seems you can unconsciously use it in extreme situations. For people who are unconscious, or children too young to understand, the spikes could allow them to be saved.
 

Children under a certain age will not be able to use medallions. So that is where many hospitals will look for people willing to donate those abilities.