Pushing metalminds (spoilers for era 1)

[XaviGzz]

Hi guys!

Is Mistborn era 2, Wax is able to push fairly easy on Wayne's metalminds. While I know that Wayne's metalminds are not spiked to his body, isn't pushing/pulling on invested objects supposed to be difficult?

Is this an inconsistency from era 1 to 2? Or this because Sazed changed the magic system?

Thanks!

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, XaviGzz said:

Is Mistborn era 2, Wax is able to push fairly easy on Wayne's metalminds. While I know that Wayne's metalminds are not spiked to his body, isn't pushing/pulling on invested objects supposed to be difficult?

You don't need to spoiler warn for that on the mistborn thread. 

A couple things here.  First Wayne is always fairly close to the edge.  He is always very close running out of health.  His metalminds therefore are very weak and proportionally easy to push on.  Secondly Wax is an incredibly powerful coinshot for him many difficult things are relatively easy.  Wax can tell if a metal is a metalmind.  He feels a bit of resistance when he pushes but it is not enough to be a major problem assuming he has enough steal in his system. So to answer your question noting has changed.  Wax is just good at what he does.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Karger

[Quantus]

36 minutes ago, Karger said:

You don't need to spoiler warn for that on the mistborn thread. 

A couple things here.  First Wayne is always fairly close to the edge.  He is always very close running out of health.  His metalminds therefore are very weak and proportionally easy to push on.  Secondly Wax is an incredibly powerful coinshot for him many difficult things are relatively easy.  Wax can tell if a metal is a metalmind.  He feels a bit of resistance when he pushes but it is not enough to be a major problem assuming he has enough steal in his system. So to answer your question noting has changed.  Wax is just good at what he does.

Agreed. This is a combination of the fact that Wax is unusually Skilled (to the point of near savantism) and Wayne tends to use up his Gold reserves on jokes, instant sobriety, etc.  With a lesser Coinshot or a more miserly Bloodmaker, they'd likely be Invested enough to prevent Pushing.  If it becomes a tactical disadvantage, Wayne could always get himself some Gold Piercings like TLR or Miles.  

[Karger]

14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

they'd likely be Invested enough to prevent Pushing

Or at least resist it much more strongly.

14 minutes ago, Quantus said:

If it becomes a tactical disadvantage, Wayne could always get himself some Gold Piercings like TLR or Miles.  

That was actually a big question I always had.  Why doesn't he?

[GoWibble]

Maybe his moral code allows for him to die in the same way that TLR does. Just without the drawing on the mists thing. oh. and the metalmind piercings thing. I think that he might just want to be able to get rid of them if he needs to. idk why though. 

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, GoWibble said:

Maybe his moral code allows for him to die in the same way that TLR does. Just without the drawing on the mists thing. oh. and the metalmind piercings thing. I think that he might just want to be able to get rid of them if he needs to. idk why though. 

Or maybe he has a special move where he quickly drops both to unbalance his opponent.  

[StanLemon]

Real life? Brandon almost certainly hadn't thought of metalminds and god metals in his era 1 books as there is no issue pushing/pulling on metalminds or atium in era 1. In the Cosmere? All examples of pushing/pulling on metalminds and godmetals can arguably be justified. Marsh pushed/pulled on Sazed's near empty metalminds. The atium Vin pushes and pulls in book one is a small nugget (although considering that it is still pure Investiture means it's weird it didn't have any noticeable resistance)

[Quantus]

5 minutes ago, StanLemon said:

Brandon almost certainly hadn't thought of metalminds and god metals in his era 1 books as there is no issue pushing/pulling on metalminds or atium in era 1

Thats not true at all.  Metalminds and Godmetals were key plot elements, as was the fact that both (along with charged spikes, which they were disguised as) could not be Pushed or Pulled.  

[Elsecaller_17.5]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

Thats not true at all.  Metalminds and Godmetals were key plot elements, as was the fact that both (along with charged spikes, which they were disguised as) could not be Pushed or Pulled.  

The metalminds resit pushing and pulling, but I dont think the god metals do. I specifically remember a scene where Vin pulls an atium beed from a jar into her mouth. Less confident on this one but I think she saw the Lerasium bead with steelsight.

Edited January 28, 2020 by Elsecaller_17.5

[Karger]

13 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

The metalminds resit pushing and pulling, but I dont think the god metals do. I specifically remember a scene where Vin pulls an atium beed from a jar into her mouth. Less confident on this one but I think she saw the Lerasium bead with steelsight.

She did both.  This does not mean that they do not resist.  Vin is very strong and atium at least is rather light.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

She did both.  This does not mean that they do not resist.  Vin is very strong and atium at least is rather light.

I think A and L would be an all or nothing thing. They are the god metals, pure investure. They would either be as hard to push on as a Shardblade or not limit pushing and pulling at all. Evidently it's not the first the first so I would assume the second.

[Quantus]

13 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

The metalminds resit pushing and pulling, but I dont think the god metals do. I specifically remember a scene where Vin pulls an atium beed from a jar into her mouth. Less confident on this one but I think she saw the Lerasium bead with steelsight.

According to the WOBs I was able to find, the issue is that it's not a binary thing, you can push on ANY metal if you are strong enough to overcome said Investiture.  Per this WOB every time it's happened in Mistborn there was some Enhancement going on. There's another one that does confirm it is possible to push on Godmetals like Shardblades, but that it would take crazy amounts of power

 

Quote

 

Brandon Sanderson

[cut for length]

They do still have some. They've lost their Breath but that isn't the entirety of the Investiture inside of them.

Almost all of the times we see Vin--in fact I think every time--we see Vin, or someone in the Mistborn books, Pushing or Pulling on an Invested metal they are either drawing on the mist or they're Elend or the Lord Ruler who have the enhanced power, or something like that. Or it's a duralumin Push, or its one of the Inquisitors who's had a spike-- y'know, and things like that, that've-- And so it's not something that you see done very often in the Mistborn books.

Rubix

I can actually confirm that's correct.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/41/#e7222

 

 

But before we disappear in the weeds too far, my main point was just that the functions of Invested metals were indeed considered and settled in Era1, it's not something that was retconned in for Era 2, which I thought was what @StanLemon was trying to say.  

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

I think A and L would be an all or nothing thing. They are the god metals, pure investure. They would either be as hard to push on as a Shardblade or not limit pushing and pulling at all. Evidently it's not the first the first so I would assume the second.

I seriously doubt this would be all or nothing.  With pulling or pushing it never really is.  Even with aluminum you could theoretically push hard enough.  Also Shardblades have their own identity which effects this.

[Elsecaller_17.5]

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

According to the WOBs I was able to find, the issue is that it's not a binary thing, you can push on ANY metal if you are strong enough to overcome said Investiture.

This is true. To clarify I think because A and L are an internal part of the system they might not be any harder to push on then a hunk of steel.

[Quantus]

Just now, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

This is true. To clarify I think because A and L are an internal part of the system they might not be any harder to push on then a hunk of steel.

Ah, ok I see what you are getting at.  You are saying that Atium and Lerasium (and presumably Harmonium) might uniquely be godmetals that can be pushed.  While I suppose that's possible (exceptions can always happen) it doesnt feel like it fits to me.  Id think the shared rules would make the same play out for both Surges Vs Shardblades/Plate as for Pushing vs  Atium.  Actually I think it more likely to go the other way, since there's so much more Investiture in Surges (as a general statement)and they can override things like basic human investiture where Pushes cannot.  

[Kingsdaughter613]

49 minutes ago, Karger said:

I seriously doubt this would be all or nothing.  With pulling or pushing it never really is.  Even with aluminum you could theoretically push hard enough.  Also Shardblades have their own identity which effects this.

Aluminum just absorbs the investiture. It can’t be pushed on. I think A&L are unique due to Ati and Leras creating Scadrial. But it wouldn’t work with other magic systems or with other god metals.

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, Kingsdaughter613 said:

Aluminum just absorbs the investiture. It can’t be pushed on

SA spoilers

Spoiler

Brandon has said that enough investiture can soulcast alunminum

100% immunity is not a thing in the cosmere.

[Pathfinder]

Brandon's answer about being able to push and pull atium

 

Chaos

Is atium Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

Is atium Invested? Atium is Investiture distilled into the Physical Realm, right? So is electricity electric? Or is it--

Chaos

Well I think the question Sharders had was if it's Invested, how can people Push and Pull on it. That was the struggle.

Brandon Sanderson

Atium breaks a lot of rules, in the same way that you will see other things break rules. Atium plays weirdly. When you get distilled Investiture, you're starting like-- My kind of rule for myself is it's kind of like when you start going on the quantum level, the rules just start playing weirdly. Because it's like, what Realm does atium exist in-- is another thing. Because-- Pure Investiture like that is like a mini black hole, right? It's like existing in three Realms at once. Kind of, and things like that... There's lots of weirdness.

The writerly answer is there is lots of weirdness because when I built atium, I didn't have the rest of the cosmere built, right? And so it breaks a lot of rules that I later set up that everything else has to follow, right? So the writerly answer is we just have to accept that atium and lerasium and some of these other distilled Investiture things are going to play very weirdly with the magic systems. But that's okay. Nightblood will too, and some of these things that were built even after the cosmere was coming together.

Salt Lake City signing (Dec. 16, 2017)

[Elsecaller_17.5]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Brandon's answer about being able to push and pull atium

Well this pretty much ends the debate, kudos pathfinder.

[Kingsdaughter613]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

SA spoilers

  Hide contents

Brandon has said that enough investiture can soulcast alunminum

100% immunity is not a thing in the cosmere.

Yes... if six shards are working in tandem. Which is pretty close to ‘not going to happen.’ As far as ordinary people are concerned... No. It’s immune to soulcasting.

Can you Soulcast aluminum into other materials?

Brandon Sanderson

Aluminum would strongly resist any sort of Soulcasting.

Billy Todd

Would that resistance be overcome? Could be overcome?

Brandon Sanderson

This is the question. Everything can be, right? Aluminum, in the cosmere, was created. And can be created. So, people ask me this, "Can? Cannot?" Like, with a powerful enough magnet in our world, what can you do? Like, is water magnetic? ...But, could you make water respond to a magnet? Yes! You can make anything if you really try hard enough... It's, like, this idea, that when people are like, "Can you, yes or no?" Well... yes! Would it take the power of six Shards of Adonalsium working together? Maybe! Can you? Yes, you probably can. Like, we're talking about a fantasy universe where almost anything is possible, and the impossibilities are contradictions, it's "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" sort of questions when you get into "can you?"

Now, could you Soulcast aluminum using a reasonable amount of energy that an individual could conceivably have in a normal setting and situation? No. If that's what you're looking for.

#aluminum #soulcasting

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)
#2 

Questioner

So, we know that things can be Soulcast into aluminum. But can aluminum itself be Soulcast into something else?

Brandon Sanderson

It resists all forms of Investiture trying to change it to things.