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Radiants on the Battlefield


Tiberius Gracchus

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I have spent quite a bit of time recently trying to imagine how the various orders of Radiants would function on the battlefield. Of course we are frequently told that most of the Radiants were not warriors, however the Desolations were desperate narrowly fought global wars that would have seen many situations where everyone was required to focus on military affairs. If a people are in a situation where (as I am confident they often were) where spears are put into the hands of 12 year olds, then I can be quite confident that every single knight with power armor, deific swords and magical powers would have long since been called to fight. 

Windrunners- I see this order as the closest thing that the armies of honor had to cavalry. On ancient battlefields cavalry was often used as a shock force. The mobility provided by horses and chariots allowed a division of (often the most skilled and equipped) troops to slam into an enemy where they were weakest. Of course we have seen that the powers of the Windrunners can easily transport both themselves and others around a battlefield, and we know that the Windrunners were the closest to “professional” soldiers of the Radiants. 2 or 3 Windrunners with 60-100 Windrunner squires carrying 100 or so of the other best “normal” troops in the army would have made quite the mobile sledgehammer.

Skybreakers- I see the order of the Skybreakers doing many of the same things as the Windrunners, simply on a smaller scale. The fact that the Skybreakers spend most of their time as law enforcement, rather than soldiers and their relative lack of squires would make them more inclined to fight in smaller bands than the Windrunners. I see a small band of Skybreakers and squires flying around the  battlefield raining down Division and bringing “Honor’s Justice” to high priority targets like a particularly problematic Fused or squadron of Regals. I also see the Skybreakers as the order most practiced at slaying Thunderclasts.

Dustbringers- Well I don’t think I know enough about the Dustbringers to really form an opinion about them yet.

Edgedancers- I see the Edgedancers as the Radiant’s medics, using Abrasion to zip around the battlefield distributing Regrowth and other supplies. I also see Edgedancers as useful in a siege situation; using progression to help grow edible crops as a supplemental food source to soulcasting.

Truthwatchers- I find it difficult to place the Truthwatchers as we don't know that much about them but I imagine them filling a role somewhere between the Edgedancers and Elsecallers.

Lightweavers- I think it is uncontroversial to suggest that the Lightweavers often served as spies, assassins, and saboteurs. Unlike the Skybreakers who I see swooping down to cut the enemy commander in two in the middle of the battle, I see the Lightweavers as the reason that the enemy army arrives to the battlefield with poisoned supplies, inoperable siege machines, their troops receiving incorrect orders and their reinforcements delayed.

Elsecallers- I see the Elsecallers as the primary tacticians and weapons designers of the Radiants. I imagine they would spend the most time at the planning table drawing maps, accounting supplies (and refilling the stocks through soulcasting) and perhaps preparing countermeasures against the enemy’s less conventional threats. The exact line between their roles and those of the Truthwatchers are unclear to me.

Willshapers- As with the Dustbringers, I do not feel like I have enough information to speculate.

Stonewards- This order are the followers of the Herald of War. I see their role as being interspersed amongst the common infantry of the Radiant’s armies. Unlike the Windrunners who I see as directly leading the most elite regiments, the Stonewards would be standing with the weakest regiments creating stone earthworks, inspiring cohesion, and generally bearing the agonies of the soldiery.

Bondsmiths- I think that Dalinar is a poor example of the traditional role of the Bondsmiths. While they might often serve as diplomats and emissaries. I think that they spent much of their time as personal advisors to the rest of the Radiants, helping them grow in their oaths and surges. I imagine that on the battlefield that the Bondsmiths would float around a provide support and perhaps powerups to the other Radiants in their times of most need.

Thoughts?

Tib

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15 minutes ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Dustbringers- Well I don’t think I know enough about the Dustbringers to really form an opinion about them yet.

We know from the prologue in tWoK that whatever Dustbringers do it involves lots of fire. I would guess that they would use abrasion to zip around the battlefield catching everyone and everything on fire.

20 minutes ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Lightweavers- I think it is uncontroversial to suggest that the Lightweavers often served as spies, assassins, and saboteurs. Unlike the Skybreakers who I see swooping down to cut the enemy commander in two in the middle of the battle, I see the Lightweavers as the reason that the enemy army arrives to the battlefield with poisoned supplies, inoperable siege machines, their troops receiving incorrect orders and their reinforcements delayed.

In addition to this it wouldn't hurt for some "reinforcements" to magically appear out of nowhere.

 

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38 minutes ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

 

I have spent quite a bit of time recently trying to imagine how the various orders of Radiants would function on the battlefield. Of course we are frequently told that most of the Radiants were not warriors, however the Desolations were desperate narrowly fought global wars that would have seen many situations where everyone was required to focus on military affairs. If a people are in a situation where (as I am confident they often were) where spears are put into the hands of 12 year olds, then I can be quite confident that every single knight with power armor, deific swords and magical powers would have long since been called to fight. 

Windrunners- I see this order as the closest thing that the armies of honor had to cavalry. On ancient battlefields cavalry was often used as a shock force. The mobility provided by horses and chariots allowed a division of (often the most skilled and equipped) troops to slam into an enemy where they were weakest. Of course we have seen that the powers of the Windrunners can easily transport both themselves and others around a battlefield, and we know that the Windrunners were the closest to “professional” soldiers of the Radiants. 2 or 3 Windrunners with 60-100 Windrunner squires carrying 100 or so of the other best “normal” troops in the army would have made quite the mobile sledgehammer.

Skybreakers- I see the order of the Skybreakers doing many of the same things as the Windrunners, simply on a smaller scale. The fact that the Skybreakers spend most of their time as law enforcement, rather than soldiers and their relative lack of squires would make them more inclined to fight in smaller bands than the Windrunners. I see a small band of Skybreakers and squires flying around the  battlefield raining down Division and bringing “Honor’s Justice” to high priority targets like a particularly problematic Fused or squadron of Regals. I also see the Skybreakers as the order most practiced at slaying Thunderclasts.

Dustbringers- Well I don’t think I know enough about the Dustbringers to really form an opinion about them yet.

Edgedancers- I see the Edgedancers as the Radiant’s medics, using Abrasion to zip around the battlefield distributing Regrowth and other supplies. I also see Edgedancers as useful in a siege situation; using progression to help grow edible crops as a supplemental food source to soulcasting.

Truthwatchers- I find it difficult to place the Truthwatchers as we don't know that much about them but I imagine them filling a role somewhere between the Edgedancers and Elsecallers.

Lightweavers- I think it is uncontroversial to suggest that the Lightweavers often served as spies, assassins, and saboteurs. Unlike the Skybreakers who I see swooping down to cut the enemy commander in two in the middle of the battle, I see the Lightweavers as the reason that the enemy army arrives to the battlefield with poisoned supplies, inoperable siege machines, their troops receiving incorrect orders and their reinforcements delayed.

Elsecallers- I see the Elsecallers as the primary tacticians and weapons designers of the Radiants. I imagine they would spend the most time at the planning table drawing maps, accounting supplies (and refilling the stocks through soulcasting) and perhaps preparing countermeasures against the enemy’s less conventional threats. The exact line between their roles and those of the Truthwatchers are unclear to me.

Willshapers- As with the Dustbringers, I do not feel like I have enough information to speculate.

Stonewards- This order are the followers of the Herald of War. I see their role as being interspersed amongst the common infantry of the Radiant’s armies. Unlike the Windrunners who I see as directly leading the most elite regiments, the Stonewards would be standing with the weakest regiments creating stone earthworks, inspiring cohesion, and generally bearing the agonies of the soldiery.

Bondsmiths- I think that Dalinar is a poor example of the traditional role of the Bondsmiths. While they might often serve as diplomats and emissaries. I think that they spent much of their time as personal advisors to the rest of the Radiants, helping them grow in their oaths and surges. I imagine that on the battlefield that the Bondsmiths would float around a provide support and perhaps powerups to the other Radiants in their times of most need.

Thoughts?

Tib

Windrunners and Skybreaker- I agree that that roughly speaking the skybreakers and windrunners would serve in a shock troops capacity. They might hit and run as well as charge the enemy. Their surges make them adept at causing disarray. The lashing ability of a windrunner would keep an enemy off balance with a skybreaker or even a squad this could do severe damage.

Dustbringers- As @Llstml said abrasion plus division could be very bad for the health of the enemy.

Edgedancers-  Agreed.

Truthwatchers- They might be able to trip up the enemy through the combined use of progression and illumination.

Lightweavers- This seems logical.

Elsecallers- They might also be able to act as forward scouts to help develop strategies.

Willshapers- They could possibly also serve the above function.

Stonewards- They might also serve as heavy troops interspersed with the regular troops. Perhaps there would be blocks to smash the enemy.

Bondsmiths- Agreed.

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A few more thoughts

2 hours ago, Llstml said:

We know from the prologue in tWoK that whatever Dustbringers do it involves lots of fire. I would guess that they would use abrasion to zip around the battlefield catching everyone and everything on fire

I agree that the Dustbringers were probably quite terrifying combatants, but I have no idea how they would be used. Would Knights and squires form into elite, explosive demolitions squads like a slower, more destructive version of the Windrunner sledgehammer, or maybe would they be interspersed like the Stonewards and serve as the point of every advancing regiment like many modern shardbearers do (Dalinar and Adolin at the Tower and Narak), or perhaps (if Division can be used from any distance) they would be behind the lines raining fire as a form of magical artillery. 

We just don't know enough about their abilities and worldview to ascribe them any specific role yet.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Bondsmiths might not be the most impressive on the field personally but I think you underestimate their overcharging abilities and the special resonance they have which each order.

I think you read an implication into my words that I did not intend. as this (powering up other orders) is exactly what I imagine the Bondsmiths doing.

Tib

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2 minutes ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

I think you read an implication into my words that I did not intend. as this (powering up other orders) is exactly what I imagine the Bondsmiths doing.

Oh I just thought that you were referencing the Bondsmith guidance counseloring.

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There is also the question of the Rshyadium. There is a moment (I think in WoR chapter Monsters) where someone remarks that there was no cavalry in the desolations with the sole exception of Radiants mounted on Rshyadium. It is unclear to me who this would be as steeds would be irrelevant to Windrunners, Skybreakers, Edgedancers and perhaps Willshapers and Dustbringers whose surges already provide either comparable or superior mobility. Most of the other orders I do not see having a frontline role, (Elsecallers, Truthwatchers, Lightweavers and Bondsmiths don't seem the type to lead charges) and the Stonewards are too suited to the role of heavy infantry and would seem a poor fit for the aggressive glory-seeking attitude of cavalry.

Tib

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Lightweavers & Elsecallers are great suppliers with their Soulcasting. That's a lot of logistics that they're taking care of. Beyond that, the Elsecallers were prime liaisons with the spren, who are also sapient beings with a stake in the conflict. Alongside the Willshapers, the Elsecallers apparently also did cartography. From the Urithiru gem archive, they were also responsible for protecting perfect gems. Truthwatchers and Elsecallers were called the scholarly Orders and helped planning for the capture of certain Unmade. Lightweavers are mentioned as providing "spiritual sustenance", raising morale.

Windrunners did do scouting, their Surges are ideal for this purpose. Adhesion, as the Surge of pressure and vacuum could help keep them safe during Highstorms. Skybreakers were mentioned as the military police of ancient Urithiru. Edgedancers apparently went around helping the common populace and actively participated in diplomacy "most articulate of the Orders", possibly both hard & soft sells, given the terror that the person whom the Edgedancers were visiting. Might've also served as combat medics and possibly also as assassins (probably not, because Honor, but in the future...). Dustbringers apparently did a lot of damage, and unnerved both their fellow Radiants (who saw them as toeing the line) and the common people (who looked at the destructiveness of their powers). Stonewards were mentioned as exemplary self-sacrifing soldiers. Bondsmiths probably participated in diplomatic relationships as well, as they are mentioned being with kings & "thrones", the Spiritual Surge of Adhesion would allow them efficacy with communication without having to face the hurdle of different languages and the godspren they Bonded earned them a lot of credibility. Urithiru was the city where all "roads" led during that age.

Edited by Honorless
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6 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

I have spent quite a bit of time recently trying to imagine how the various orders of Radiants would function on the battlefield. Of course we are frequently told that most of the Radiants were not warriors, however the Desolations were desperate narrowly fought global wars that would have seen many situations where everyone was required to focus on military affairs. If a people are in a situation where (as I am confident they often were) where spears are put into the hands of 12 year olds, then I can be quite confident that every single knight with power armor, deific swords and magical powers would have long since been called to fight.

Thoughts?

They won't be on the battlefield, as in WW2. You are thinking of army on army clashing in open combat. That will be vanishingly rare.
They lack that modern level of mobility and they have no firearms. They will target civilian populations, supply lines and force the enemy to take a Highstorm out in the open. They fight repeated battles in a total war on known terrain.

War on Roshar will be fortresses, fortifications, breastworks, moats and trenches. On a planet which makes sieges extremely hard to conduct, fortifications are the gold standard. Make them die on your walls. Burn or take their grain. A desolation will be raids against civilians, counter raids, skirmishes, attacks on supply lines, hunting out magically disguised infiltrators. Major battles will either involve a fortress on one side or will be delaying actions against a pursuit while your forces are going back to a fortress.

The other key factor are the magical forces of the other side. We haven't seen most Forms of Power.

 

6 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Windrunners- I see this order as the closest thing that the armies of honor had to cavalry. On ancient battlefields cavalry was often used as a shock force. The mobility provided by horses and chariots allowed a division of (often the most skilled and equipped) troops to slam into an enemy where they were weakest. Of course we have seen that the powers of the Windrunners can easily transport both themselves and others around a battlefield, and we know that the Windrunners were the closest to “professional” soldiers of the Radiants. 2 or 3 Windrunners with 60-100 Windrunner squires carrying 100 or so of the other best “normal” troops in the army would have made quite the mobile sledgehammer.

Raiders and especially counterraiders. Also air supply and scouts.
Every Shard Bearer with Plate and Blade can fulfill the role of a cavalry charge. The older roles of scouts and raiders still need to be fulfilled.
Dalinar's vision of the village attacked by the Midnight Mother's monsters were likely typical.

6 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Skybreakers- I see the order of the Skybreakers doing many of the same things as the Windrunners, simply on a smaller scale.

Air defense and internal security.

6 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Dustbringers- Well I don’t think I know enough about the Dustbringers to really form an opinion about them yet.

Sappers. Bring down the enemy's walls.

6 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Edgedancers- I see the Edgedancers as the Radiant’s medics, using Abrasion to zip around the battlefield distributing Regrowth and other supplies. I also see Edgedancers as useful in a siege situation; using progression to help grow edible crops as a supplemental food source to soulcasting.

Exactly. Also counter biowarfare. Spreading disease is an obvious tactic.

6 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Truthwatchers- I find it difficult to place the Truthwatchers as we don't know that much about them but I imagine them filling a role somewhere between the Edgedancers and Elsecallers.

Somebody has to be counter intelligence and interrogators. Unless the Skybreakers are doing the torturing.

6 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Willshapers- As with the Dustbringers, I do not feel like I have enough information to speculate.

Deep raids and strategic scouting.

6 hours ago, Tiberius Gracchus said:

Stonewards- This order are the followers of the Herald of War. I see their role as being interspersed amongst the common infantry of the Radiant’s armies. Unlike the Windrunners who I see as directly leading the most elite regiments, the Stonewards would be standing with the weakest regiments creating stone earthworks, inspiring cohesion, and generally bearing the agonies of the soldiery.

Fortifications are the key to war on Roshar. Hence the Stonewards are the key to war. Build the battlements and then hold them.

 

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14 hours ago, Elsecaller_17.5 said:

It's not clear how the surge of transportation works, but willshapers and elsecallers could be amazing at getting small groups behind enemy lines and to other critical locations. Again depending on how illumination can be utilize lightweavers and truthwatchers could aid in communication. 

As far as I'm aware, the idea for Illumination is that Truthwatchers could produce a video of a current event, possibly with audio, like a camera, or maybe even a two-way video chat. Lightweavers make illusions. For the Illumination orders, the surge use is probably in the name. But we have not yet seen a "normal" Truthwatcher to verify. For transportation, I personally think that it works differently for Elsecallers and Willshapers. We have seen Elsecalling on-screen, and it creates a mini-perpendicularity to take the user into the CR. I think "Willshaping" is just normal teleportation, however we will have to wait for Venli to use it. That might be in the next book, though, based on the way Radiants seem to learn their Surges.

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