Lightweavers Potential

[The Deity]

In regards to using their Surges, Lightweavers are less bound by oaths considering that they only have to swear the First Ideal to access them. This means that they can do a myriad of things without having to suffer the consequences of almost breaking the bond like Kaladin did. I'm open so any ideas as to why they only have to swear the First Ideal; I think, and this is reaching out here, it is because of the Yolish variant of Lightweaving. Maybe they didn't need to have other Ideals because of it's preexisting nature.

[Honorless]

One shouldn't consider the Lightweavers' Ideals easier due to them not being sworn oaths. The first and so far only examples we've gotten of failed and regressed Knights Radiant both belonged to this Order

I'm talking about this guy:

Quote

 

Malchin was stymied, for though he was inferior to none in the arts of war, he was not suitable for the Lightweavers; he wished for his oaths to be elementary and straightforward, and yet their spren were liberal, as to our comprehension, in definitions pertaining to this matter; the process included speaking truths as an approach to a threshold of self-awareness that Malchin could never attain.

and Shallan

Edited January 25, 2020 by Honorless

[NameIess]

27 minutes ago, The Deity said:

In regards to using their Surges, Lightweavers are less bound by oaths considering that they only have to swear the First Ideal to access them. This means that they can do a myriad of things without having to suffer the consequences of almost breaking the bond like Kaladin did. I'm open so any ideas as to why they only have to swear the First Ideal; I think, and this is reaching out here, it is because of the Yolish variant of Lightweaving. Maybe they didn't need to have other Ideals because of it's preexisting nature.

the Lightweavers do have to swear ideals, their ideals are truths. Shallan was only able to soulcast after she spoke a truth. My take on it is that there are 2 types of burgeoning Radiants: Proto-radiants and Squires. Proto-radiants have spren, and can use their surges immediately after swearing the first ideal, or even before that, like Kaladin did. The squires might swear the ideals, but they have no spren bond of their own, and thus can only use the surges via the KR that they are Squires to. Lightweavers are no different in that regard.

[Honorless]

7 minutes ago, Llstml said:

My take on it is that there are 2 types of burgeoning Radiants: Proto-radiants and Squires. Proto-radiants have spren, and can use their surges immediately after swearing the first ideal, or even before that, like Kaladin did. The squires might swear the ideals, but they have no spren bond of their own, and thus can only use the surges via the KR that they are Squires to. Lightweavers are no different in that regard.

It seems there are always exceptions. Remember the Skybreaker Squires can swear up to the Second Ideal which gives them access to Stormlight and the ability to utilize the Surge of Gravitation, whereas the First Ideal doesn't grant any power, the Surge of Division comes from swearing the Third Ideal for which they need to bond their own spren

We'll probably continue to see some deviation in the Ideals of the remaining Orders of the Knights Radiant as well 

Edited January 25, 2020 by Honorless

[The Deity]

The truths do seem interesting, would they be like incrementally powerful truths as they progress like Malchin, or would they be different for each radiant?

[Honorless]

1 minute ago, The Deity said:

The truths do seem interesting, would they be like incrementally powerful truths as they progress like Malchin, or would they be different for each radiant?

The Truths would always be different to each individual. Do you mean if there's a pattern to the kind of Truth one speaks within the sequence? We don't know. Perhaps there is a pattern there, with certain kinds of Truth or how powerful the Truths were. In simpler terms, whether admitting to a certain kind of falsehood per stage or how powerful the lie was in the speaker's life, etc. Perhaps we'll know when Shallan's Squires Gaz, Vathah, Red or Ishnah swear their own Truths

 

Your idea isn't wholly off the mark either. Lightweavers don't bind themselves to any moral codes except to their own conscience. They're about self-awareness, self-actualization and self acceptance, admitting the lies one tells themselves, accepting harsh truths about oneself, being honest to oneself. Not necessarily easier than following Oaths but certainly... free-er, in a sense.

So some people can certainly wonder if Lightweavers are one of the more potentially easier to go bad, the more corruptible among the Orders. But I don't believe so, since the process of becoming a Lightweaver would make one more honest to themselves, they'd admit their faults. The other Orders on the other hand could go "for the greater good" or put their own conscience and sense of morality above what might need to be done.

[The Deity]

3 hours ago, Honorless said:

"for the greater good" or put their own conscience and sense of morality above what might need to be done.

*cough* Nale *cough*

[Pathfinder]

On 1/25/2020 at 6:36 PM, The Deity said:

*cough* Nale *cough*

Lol though windrunners are also included in this. Brandon has stated that two windrunners can interpret the oaths in a different way and disagree on whether or not something is the right thing to do. Theoretically any order can have "good" guys and "bad" guys. Just some oaths lend a little more leeway than others. 

(only highlighting because it is a long WoB and the main part I am referring to is the end)

 

Questioner

It was mentioned that there are 16 gods in your Cosmere.

Brandon Sanderson

Depends on your definition of god.

Questioner

Shards. Are the ten orders of the Knight Radiants related to specific gods? Because Honor, child of Honor-Kaladin

Brandon Sanderson

So all the magic on Roshar, all the surgebinding on Roshar, is going to have its roots in Honor and Cultivation. Um... There is some Odium influence too, but that’s mostly voidbinding, which is the map in the back of the first book.

Questioner

I was wondering how much-

Brandon Sanderson

But, but even the powers, it’s, it’s really this sort of thing. What’s going in Stormlight is that people are accessing fundamental forces of creation and laws of the universe. They’re accessing them through the filter of Cultivation and Honor. So, that’s not to say, on another world you couldn’t have someone influence gravity. Honor doesn’t belong to gravity. But bonds, and how to deal with bonds, and things like this, is an Honor thing. So the way Honor accesses gravity is, you make a bond between yourself and either a thing or a direction or things like that and you go. So it’s filtered through Honor’s visual, and some of the magics lean more Honor and some them lean more Cultivation, as you can obviously see, in the way that they take place.

Questioner

The question kind of rooted because, Wyndle in the short story is always saying that he’s a cultivationspren, he doesn’t like [...]. I kind of got the idea that each order had a different Shard.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a good thing to think, but that is not how it is. Some of them self-identify more in certain ways. Syl is an honorspren, that’s what they call a honorspren, they self-identify as the closest to Honor. Is that true? Well, I don’t know. For instance, you might talk to different spren, who are like, no, highspren are like “We’re the ones most like Honor. We are the ones that keep oaths the best. Those honorspren will let their people break their oaths if they think it’s for a good cause. That’s not Honor-like.” There would be disagreement.

Questioner

Are you saying that the spren’s view of themself influences how they work?

Brandon Sanderson

Oh yeah, and humans’ view of them because spren are pieces of Investiture who have gained sapience, or sentience for the smaller spren, through human perception of those forces. For instance, whether or not Kaladin is keeping an oath is up to what Syl and Kaladin think is keeping that oath. It is not related to capital-T Truth, what is actually keeping the oath. Two windrunners can disagree on whether an oath has been kept or not.

Boskone 54 (Feb. 18, 2017) Edited January 27, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Duke of Lizards]

On 1/25/2020 at 11:56 AM, The Deity said:

This means that they can do a myriad of things without having to suffer the consequences of almost breaking the bond like Kaladin did

I could be wrong, but I always assumed that Shallan did something similar with Pattern when she was a child.  Specifically, when she locked away the memory of killing her mother, she was denying a truth. My interpretation was that it sort of unraveled their bond and it made Pattern disappear for a time. Am I wrong? I’m curious to know how others interpreted that. 
 

 

[NameIess]

31 minutes ago, Duke of Lizards said:

I could be wrong, but I always assumed that Shallan did something similar with Pattern when she was a child.  Specifically, when she locked away the memory of killing her mother, she was denying a truth. My interpretation was that it sort of unraveled their bond and it made Pattern disappear for a time. Am I wrong? I’m curious to know how others interpreted that. 

Yep, Shallan at one point had sworn most or all of her truths, but then she regressed after the death of her mother.

[Karger]

On 1/25/2020 at 1:37 PM, Honorless said:

It seems there are always exceptions. Remember the Skybreaker Squires can swear up to the Second Ideal which gives them access to Stormlight and the ability to utilize the Surge of Gravitation, whereas the First Ideal doesn't grant any power, the Surge of Division comes from swearing the Third Ideal for which they need to bond their own spren

That is not quite true.  They can see Szeth even around the first ideal level.  Some subtle stuff is happening to them even there.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Karger

[Honorless]

45 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is not quite true.  They can see Szeth even around the first ideal level.  Some subtle stuff is happening to them even there.

What exactly are you trying to say here? That spren could see Szeth? Yes, duh. Besides, the descriptions of the Ideals & the powers are what Szeth was told by Ki, who has no reason to deceive Szeth.

[NameIess]

4 minutes ago, Honorless said:

What exactly are you trying to say here? That spren could see Szeth? Yes, duh. Besides, the descriptions of the Ideals & the powers are what Szeth was told by Ki, who has no reason to deceive Szeth.

Ki told Szeth that after swearing the third ideal he would be taught division, not that he would be unable to use it until then. Nale also refers to Division as the more dangerous of the two surges, so it could just be that the Skybreakers don't allow the knights of the second ideal to use it.

[Karger]

21 minutes ago, Honorless said:

1 hour ago, Karger said:

 

What exactly are you trying to say here? That spren could see Szeth?

They can see his weird shadow soul self that follows him around.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

They can see his weird shadow soul self that follows him around.

I know Lift can see it because she is closer to the cognitive realm, but I don't recall the skybreakers being able to. Could you link the scene? Genuinely asking. Not trying to prove a point. (not that I ever ask that with the intention of proving a point, but I have been trying to make my intentions clearer of late)

[Karger]

59 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

I know Lift can see it because she is closer to the cognitive realm, but I don't recall the skybreakers being able to. Could you link the scene? Genuinely asking. Not trying to prove a point. (not that I ever ask that with the intention of proving a point, but I have been trying to make my intentions clearer of late)

Quote

The other five kept their distance from him. Perhaps it was because of the way he left a glowing afterimage when he moved: a sign of his soul’s improper reattachment. Not all could see it, but these could. They were close enough to the Surges.

 

[Pathfinder]

40 minutes ago, Karger said:

 

Thank you!

[Karger]

5 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Thank you!

No problem.

[Honorless]

5 hours ago, Llstml said:

Ki told Szeth that after swearing the third ideal he would be taught division, not that he would be unable to use it until then. Nale also refers to Division as the more dangerous of the two surges, so it could just be that the Skybreakers don't allow the knights of the second ideal to use it.

Well, yes, those were his exact words but the complete explanation included that to use Division, you needed to Bond your own spren. Apparently Skybreaker Squires could not use that Surge.

5 hours ago, Karger said:

They can see his weird shadow soul self that follows him around.

This is why keep telling you to write complete sentences! Did any of the other Radiants (as in, from other Orders) give any indication that they could see the glowing shadow too? Aside from Lift, who as noted, has other things going for her

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

This is why keep telling you to write complete sentences! Did any of the other Radiants (as in, from other Orders) give any indication that they could see the glowing shadow too? Aside from Lift, who as noted, has other things going for her

No idea but he specifically mentions that not everyone can see it so I conclude that something is happening to them even at that stage.

[Aon Tia]

Not exactly what I thought this topic is going to be after reading the topic heading “ lightweavers potential” 

 

[Honorless]

7 hours ago, The Traveller said:

Not exactly what I thought this topic is going to be after reading the topic heading “ lightweavers potential” 

We did veer a bit off-topic, didn't we?

But hey! Other Orders of Knights Radiant have potential too!

Final off-topic question, I promise, but does anyone remember when Kaladin started using the term Lashing? Was it for narrative purposes, did he learn it from Szeth, did Teft tell him, did the name come to him instinctively? 

Edited January 28, 2020 by Honorless
stupid auto-correct

[Pathfinder]

14 hours ago, Honorless said:

We did veer a bit off-topic, didn't we?

But hey! Other Orders of Knights Radiant have potential too!

Final off-topic question, I promise, but does anyone remember when Kaladin started using the term Lashing? Was it for narrative purposes, did he learn it from Szeth, did Teft tell him, did the name come to him instinctively? 

Doing a search on lashing shows the first instance I found Kaladin use it was on page 601 of Words of Radiance. He says he heard Szeth use the term. 

[Honorless]

25 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Doing a search on lashing shows the first instance I found Kaladin use it was on page 601 of Words of Radiance. He says he heard Szeth use the term. 

Thanks, that's the one Stormlight book I haven't done a single reread of, so there's no way I'd have caught/remembered that